PvE vs PvP......A Dose of Reality

PBpsy · October 2014

Resueht wrote: »

Came back here to see the discussion after a bit, noticed my previous post got a lot of "LOL"s. Not sure why, guess it's a lot of like minded people who can't understand how big a part of this game is PvP (or understand the need for balance in PvP).

Oh well, thanks for the points

You do not get points for lols. So you are not welcome.

Ysne58 · October 2014

Both PvE and PvP are important parts of the game.

sagitter · October 2014

More cool alliance war abilities and levels to get it would be awesome in pvp.

dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO · October 2014

You said all you have said is the facts. Where did these facts come from? Because if you think 90% of v14 are playing pve and 10% PvP I think you don't have any actual facts, just made up statistics. Most of the people I have ever talked to grind alts just to have a different play style for PvP.

I would be very surprised if 90% of people are just running aa and helra over and over for hours every weekend, But I'm not going to invent statistics and call them facts stating otherwise.

PS the word grind implies you are trying to "skip" the pve part; and in case you haven't noticed it is one of the top words on these forums along with QQ and nerf.

Wreuntzylla · October 2014

"You can't do ANYTHING in this game without PvE in some shape or form. On the other hand, I can access every zone and all endgame content without ever targeting or being targeted by another player."

I'll open with two words. Barrier. Caltrops.

Barrier has been nerfed but is still a favored choice for certain PvE encounters and was at one point required for speed runs. Caltrops is required for the highest dps builds due to its huge damage return versus magica used.

Some of the highest PvE crit builds rely on PvP gear.

Want to do the end game fighters guild quests, which are unlocked by the final passive in that line? Uh oh, it grants quests in Cyrodiil...

Further, the champion system is coming...

"You like using Inner Light for critical strike and to spot hidden enemies? Guess what? You have to do a PvE questline to get that skill."

Mages Guild is a faction and requires a super short quest to join. You have to pick up books to level. Magelight is level 2. There are books in Cyrodiil... The skill levels by experience.

So you have to spend a short time in PvE to start. Not much of a barrier.

"Flawless Dawnbreaker, Silver Shards, and Camouflaged Hunter? PvE questline."

Fighters guild is a faction, and requires a super short quest to join. You level fighters guild by killing daedra and undead. There are daedra and a metric boatload of vampires in Cyrodiil...

"Want to Swarm players to death in PvP? Guess what, you can't even become a Vamp without doing a PvE questline. Want to be a Werewolf and tear players to shreds in PvP? Nope, PvE questline first."

Some would argue that vampirism is ruining PvP <shrug>.

"80% of the skill points in this game are obtained through PvE."

Your point? 20% is enough.

"You want top-of-the-line gear and endgame content? It's not in Cyrodiil. You have to PvE for those things in Craglorn."

Huh? Why would a PvPer want raid gear? Most of it does not have the impenetrable trait, which is must have for any serious PvPer. Crafted gear and PvP gear mixes make some of the best PvP gear builds.

There are crafting stations in Cyrodiil as well as loot for craft levelling.

"Want access to other veteran zones? Sorry, have to do PvE questlines for that privilege."

Why would a PvPer "want" access to "other" veteran zones???

"If ZOS was to raise the level cap tomorrow from VR14 to VR16, what would PvP'ers do? As soon as the game was patched and the server was up, they would immediately head to Craglorn to grind to VR16 as quickly as possible, then head back to Cyrodiil, because PvE is the fastest way to gain levels and skill XP."

But you can, in fact, level to VR16 in Cyrodiil. If you run a set group in PvP, it can be quite efficient...

"So, to summarize, this is a PvE game that just so happens to have a little bit of PvP in it for those who like enjoy it. That's the way it is, pure and simple. There CANNOT be balance between PvE and PvP unless the respective zones are instanced and completely separated with specific rules and skill durations/effects for each. You change ANYTHING in PvP and it effects PvE. You change ANYTHING in PvE and it effects PvP. The sooner you get that through your thick skulls, the better."

You have a point to make, but the hyperbole is drowning it out.

Let me flip it around.

PvP is so important to PvE that PvE'rs are ruining PvP. High end raiding guilds work to flip entire zones for the PvP buff that works in PvE...

Vizier · October 2014

PBpsy wrote: »

Circuitous wrote: »

PvP is the basis for skill balance because it's a more sensible place to determine that balance.

It is only a sensible place to determine the balance of those skill for PVP since in PVP you are face with totally different mechanics than in PVE mainly the other classes skills. You are certainly not facing the same difficulty and requirements against another player as you do against a large mob pull or a boss fight.It is not the same and under no circumstance is it reasonable to make one the standard for balancing the other.

Gotta love how you frame your argument....

"You are certainly not facing the same difficulty and requirements against ANOTHER (One, singular) player as you do against a LARGE Mob Pull (multiple, many more than one) or a boss fight. It is not the same....

No **** Sherlock.

"It is not the same and under no circumstance is it reasonable to make one the standard for balancing the other."

Ummm. I disagree. If the changes still allow for you and or your group to complete PvE solo or group content it's good enough. It's still balanced. Totally reasonable. Especially if it's resource and cost effective for Zeni.

You just aren't getting GOD Mode engraved in stone for your character...shrug.

demonlkojipub19_ESO · October 2014

Yep. Personal experience post.

ESO is 85% PvP for me. PvE is repetitive and boring. Same boring boss rotations, stupid and weak trash monsters. whatever. PvP encounters can change constantly and you never know how the outcome is going to be.

ZoS can easily balance any braindead NPC monster in the game around any changes made to skills to balance for pvp. They can't change player actions nor their ability to find the most broken setup and blow it out of proportion. Thus balance changes to skills and equipment should be done more with PvP in mind than PvE.

staxjax · October 2014

OP forgot about incoming 'Justice System'

TheBull · October 2014

Cyrodiil is 1/3 of the entire map. It's the heart of the game and the game world.

Muizer · October 2014

bellanca6561n wrote: »

What possible value do such derisive posts have?

Capable people ask this question every day, in one form or another: how do I win from here? And I don't mean games. It's the questions whose answer dismisses noise, dilatory effort, and precedes every possible accomplishment

This contributes nothing but a continuation of a tired and unwinnable debate by any side in any discussion while trying to cloak vitriol and catharsis in the guise of reason.

It's the tone of suck chic', that tiresome pecking order assembled by shrill or sarcastic competition over who can best express why something sucks or a point of view is wrong and theirs is right.

It's making this forum unbearable and unreadable and contributes NOTHING to this game or this community.

So, so many keenly intelligent people here making each other miserable using the excuse of a game and its developers who are undeniably and unarguably guilty of only one thing: designing, developing, delivering and continuing to deliver their first online game.

It cannot be their fault by any means or measure that perhaps one topic in ten expresses wonder, pleasure or joy much contribute to the enjoyment of other players.

An online game is ultimately a narrative told by its audience and I am tired of this story.

Hmm, welcome to game forums?

Anyway, I do agree at least that this topic is set up to be unnecessarily polarising. Which constituency is larger than another is hardly a good argument when the game is supposed to cater to both anyway.

Also, let's not get carried away about the influence "whining" has on these forums. No matter how vocally people complain, and how forceful they put across their arguments, the developers are going to make up their own mind. They've got, after all, far more data available to them about what players are doing than any of us. At the very best, our anecdotal evidence will make them look into things. So, if something gets nerfed or improved, its kind of silly and disrespectful towards the devs to give credit/blame to the forum population.

As for balance, either there's one that works for both PvE and PvP or there is one for each. My own opinion is that PvE and PvP are indeed quite incomparable: Human opponents are still quite a bit more inventive and intelligent than artificial ones, so balancing PvE is always going to rely on compensating with raw numbers: just throw more and more powerful enemies at the player. It's not the same thing.
However, that doesn't mean it's impossible to have one balance for both. You'll just find that you have different (combinations of) things on your ability bar in PvE and PvP.

PBpsy · October 2014

Vizier wrote: »

Ummm. I disagree. If the changes still allow for you and or your group to complete PvE solo or group content it's good enough. It's still balanced. Totally reasonable. Especially if it's resource and cost effective for Zeni.

You just aren't getting GOD Mode engraved in stone for your character...shrug.

It is funny that you think that getting by is the only factor that influences what PVE combat should be about and what will actually keep the subs of the mainly PVE players. Ridiculous and truly shortsighted..What is cost effective for ZOS is getting us to continue spending our money here. Is it challenging? Is it fair ? Is it dynamic and is it fun ? These are also important question ZOS should be thinking about when creating and adjusting skills. The skills in the game also influence the kind of pve content we will get in the future. if all skills are brought down to some level where even the least common denominator pvp player feels that everything is fair, we will have quite POS game with an extremely trivialized PVE content because we certainly must get by with every skill nerfed to the ground.That will be quite cost effective for ZOS since they can just close shop and leave home.

Oh here's a great idea ,remove all all [snip] skills from the game and only allow weapon attacks. This will be almost perfectly balanced for pvp. The players that want to do PVE content can just get by ,Just make everything killable without skills.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Cursing & Profanity]

Grim13 · October 2014

dharbert wrote: »

I've seen countless threads on this forum over the past several months concerning PvE vs PvP balance. These are mostly whine threads and nerf threads. Now, in the following paragraphs I might appear to be crass and arrogant, but that's the only way to get through to you people. And by "you people", I mean the vocal few on this forum who seem to think this game is, or should be, PvP only.

I stopped reading after your first paragraph.

I've never, ever, met a single PvP'er who thought the game was or should be PvP only.

Never.

Maybe if you'd understand that PvP has a whole lot of issues, currently... and PvP'ers come to the forums to press Zenimax for fixes, discuss said issues, vent, compare notes, etc.... and, yes, talk balance.

So, instead of hypocritically posting a PvP vs PvE QQ thread... maybe you should stick to your truckloads of PvE content... and leave "us people" to discuss PvP with each other.

Thanks.

PS- for the rest of you friendly PvE'ers who haven't tried Cyrodiil out yet... you should. It's a ton of fun... (when it works).

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Flaming]

ZOS_UlyssesW · October 2014

Hello, folks.
We have had to edit and remove several post in this thread that violated our Code of Conduct. We ask that you stay respectful and civil, and not reply with hostility towards one another. We encourage discussion of the game, and appreciate feedback from all of our players, but we expect such discussions to be constructive and in-line with our Community Rules. Thank you for understanding.

eNumbra · October 2014

dharbert wrote: »

eNumbra wrote: »

Just a small clarification, you don't have to actually do the fighters or mages quest line, just the first, "joining the guild" quest grants you the skill line.

Other than that spot on.

Thanks for agreeing with my post for the most part, but you are still uninformed on the guild skills.Simply joining the Fighter's Guild, Mages Guild, or Undaunted does not grant access to all of the skill lines.

Sorry snowflake I know you're angry but I didn't say it didn't involve some PvE, only that it didn't involve questing which is what you're OP stated.

You get access to the skill lines by joining the guilds - you advance the skill lines by
- Fighter's - Killing Daedra/undead and closing Anchors
- Mage's - Collecting lore books
- Undaunted - Dungeon Achievements

There's no questing involved.

Cysapper · October 2014

If you feel that PvP has nothing to do with the game or end game. ZOS should put a min PvP rank to get PvP buffs. Why should PvE guys get something for nothing.

Drakoleon · October 2014

OP is right but whats the point or the argument to this thread? Lets do the math...
ESO-pve=0, ESO-pvp=ESOpve, ESOpve+ESOpvp =ESO BETA*
*lets do the math after a year... cause sadly...i dont belive this great game will be complete or at least balanced sooner

Stx · October 2014

Man that was a lot of words that added up to basically nothing. I kept reading and reading, hoping for a point to emerge.

Alas...

onlinegamer1 · October 2014

The OP is utterly wrong. PvP is the only thing in this game that matters, not PvE at all.

Fact: Zenimax hired ex-DAoC (Dark Age of Camelot) developers. DAoC is the best PvP (called RvR, Realm vs Realm) in an mmorpg, ever.
Fact: There are 3 factions at war with each other in TESO.
Fact: The old blind prophet (you know, the ENTIRE MAIN PVE STORY LINE) was once the EMPEROR. (PvP)
Fact: all 3 factions fight for Emperor in Cyrodiil, dominating the center of the map.

To say TESO isn't about PvP is like saying DKs aren't about Reflective Scales.
i.e. a really stupid statement.

So, to summarize: PvP is the ONLY thing that matters in TESO. PvE is a tool to level your character for PvP. Then PvE is pointless, useless, and boring.

ItsMeToo · October 2014

What I read and understood from the OP post is that the 90%/10% had to do with PvE vs PvP content, not the number of players that are playing that content or like playing that content only.

I like and play both PvE and PvP. I want to play every part of this game. As long as ZOS keeps adding content and the servers stay up, I will play.

To me grinding means - doing something that is not fun to do.

To me there is no end-game or grinding. I love it all.

Thanks ZOS for this fun and expanding game.

Vizier · October 2014

PBpsy wrote: »

Vizier wrote: »

Ummm. I disagree. If the changes still allow for you and or your group to complete PvE solo or group content it's good enough. It's still balanced. Totally reasonable. Especially if it's resource and cost effective for Zeni.

You just aren't getting GOD Mode engraved in stone for your character...shrug.

It is funny that you think that getting by is the only factor that influences what PVE combat should be about and what will actually keep the subs of the mainly PVE players. Ridiculous and truly shortsighted..What is cost effective for ZOS is getting us to continue spending our money here. Is it challenging? Is it fair ? Is it dynamic and is it fun ? These are also important question ZOS should be thinking about when creating and adjusting skills. The skills in the game also influence the kind of pve content we will get in the future. if all skills are brought down to some level where even the least common denominator pvp player feels that everything is fair, we will have quite POS game with an extremely trivialized PVE content because we certainly must get by with every skill nerfed to the ground.That will be quite cost effective for ZOS since they can just close shop and leave home.

Oh here's a great idea ,remove all all [snip] skills from the game and only allow weapon attacks. This will be almost perfectly balanced for pvp. The players that want to do PVE content can just get by ,Just make everything killable without skills.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Cursing & Profanity]

I wouldn't say getting by is the only factor of what it should be like. I say if you can get by after PvP balances were made that is good enough.

If you are basing your enjoyment of the game on OP skills I don't know what to tell you. I would have to assume an extreme fickleness since the basic tweaking of skills has no impact on the story or immersion or role play. If Bat Swarm is nerfed, or vamp stacking speeds fixed or ultimate generation slowed what real difference does that have on the quality of PvE game play? Does it mean you can't complete content? Does it mean your party is going to wipe each and every time from now till eternity? Is the challenge too much for you? Does it mean you can't enjoy the game now? Are the colors less bright? The sounds less enjoyable? The story quality of delivery lessened? Of course not. The fact is needing to kill a few more NPCs to ready your ultimate means next to nothing in the PVE universe. It might mean you change up some preferences for build but in the end changes nothing that would alter my enjoyment of the PVE elements.

Am I shortsighted in this? I don't think so. I think I'm just practical and focused on what matters. I've spent thousands of hours playing TES game over the last 15 years. You could say I'm obsessed with it. I enjoy the PVE play and RP elements as much as the next guy. That, however, doesn't change a thing when it comes to understanding the priority of PvP balance over PVE gameplay. I'm not going to cry and moan that I have to cast flaming talons a couple extra times or that I need to hit 3 mobs with funnel health instead of two to bring in the same health regeneration. Come on man. It's not as if these changes turn every mob into Umbra for you.

It's not that difficult. These changes made for PvP balance purposes do not in any way reduce my enjoyment of the PvE elements of the game. If they do for you and others I would say you should rethink your priorities and ask how such things could ruin your TES experience here...

sean.plackerb14_ESO · October 2014

onlinegamer1 wrote: »

The OP is utterly wrong. PvP is the only thing in this game that matters, not PvE at all.

Fact: Zenimax hired ex-DAoC (Dark Age of Camelot) developers. DAoC is the best PvP (called RvR, Realm vs Realm) in an mmorpg, ever.
Fact: There are 3 factions at war with each other in TESO.
Fact: The old blind prophet (you know, the ENTIRE MAIN PVE STORY LINE) was once the EMPEROR. (PvP)
Fact: all 3 factions fight for Emperor in Cyrodiil, dominating the center of the map.

To say TESO isn't about PvP is like saying DKs aren't about Reflective Scales.
i.e. a really stupid statement.

So, to summarize: PvP is the ONLY thing that matters in TESO. PvE is a tool to level your character for PvP. Then PvE is pointless, useless, and boring.

Darn, guess I can't enjoy PVE anymore since you decided it's not fun/boring. Oh well. I guess ZOS feels the same way since they have been focusing so much on PVP with all the content updates since launch, and haven't added anything new PVE wise...

Nothing wrong with preferring one over the other, but it really annoys me when people act like their opinion is law.

AshySamurai · October 2014

sean.plackerb14_ESO wrote: »

onlinegamer1 wrote: »

The OP is utterly wrong. PvP is the only thing in this game that matters, not PvE at all.

Fact: Zenimax hired ex-DAoC (Dark Age of Camelot) developers. DAoC is the best PvP (called RvR, Realm vs Realm) in an mmorpg, ever.
Fact: There are 3 factions at war with each other in TESO.
Fact: The old blind prophet (you know, the ENTIRE MAIN PVE STORY LINE) was once the EMPEROR. (PvP)
Fact: all 3 factions fight for Emperor in Cyrodiil, dominating the center of the map.

To say TESO isn't about PvP is like saying DKs aren't about Reflective Scales.
i.e. a really stupid statement.

So, to summarize: PvP is the ONLY thing that matters in TESO. PvE is a tool to level your character for PvP. Then PvE is pointless, useless, and boring.

Darn, guess I can't enjoy PVE anymore since you decided it's not fun/boring. Oh well. I guess ZOS feels the same way since they have been focusing so much on PVP with all the content updates since launch, and haven't added anything new PVE wise...

Nothing wrong with preferring one over the other, but it really annoys me when people act like their opinion is law.

Obey my opinion!! lol

And why you still going to argue what is better? All this holywar starts with few trolls in one topic. And why it's so important? Someone likes PvE, someone PvP. Be polite and respectfull with everyone and enjoy playing.

Origin · October 2014

onlinegamer1 wrote: »

PvP is the only thing in this game that matters, not PvE at all.

Ha, ha, ha.. Really? Is that so? Well, this is just your opinion.
It doesn't mean it is true.

DDuke · October 2014

onlinegamer1 wrote: »

The OP is utterly wrong. PvP is the only thing in this game that matters, not PvE at all.

Fact: Zenimax hired ex-DAoC (Dark Age of Camelot) developers. DAoC is the best PvP (called RvR, Realm vs Realm) in an mmorpg, ever.
Fact: There are 3 factions at war with each other in TESO.
Fact: The old blind prophet (you know, the ENTIRE MAIN PVE STORY LINE) was once the EMPEROR. (PvP)
Fact: all 3 factions fight for Emperor in Cyrodiil, dominating the center of the map.

To say TESO isn't about PvP is like saying DKs aren't about Reflective Scales.
i.e. a really stupid statement.

So, to summarize: PvP is the ONLY thing that matters in TESO. PvE is a tool to level your character for PvP. Then PvE is pointless, useless, and boring.

You might want to read up on informal fallacy.

TheBull · October 2014

It's pretty obvious Cyrodiil was made first, then the pve zones were tacked on.

Luvsfuzzybunnies · October 2014

GoatKnuckle wrote: »

That's it. Let's solve the dilemma ONCE and FOR ALL.

Zeni ...

Create a hardcore PVP server that has open world PVP and with the ability to loot the dead for all of their gear and the defeated player is forced to wear the name of the last person to beat them over their character's head until they get a kill of their own.

And on every July 4th, we get to "invade" the regular servers and start a revolution for 24 hours. Just consider us the Daedric Horde and toss us out of a Great Dark Anchor or something. I don't know ... something sexy.

The Goat gives this Double Secret priority.

I support this message

DSwatloski · October 2014

How about just fixing the lag issues everywhere and I'm happy. The game is beautiful, PVE and PVP... if the nagging lag issues are fixed.

Warraxx · October 2014

onlinegamer1 wrote: »

...Fact: The old blind prophet (you know, the ENTIRE MAIN PVE STORY LINE) was once the EMPEROR...

Well damn, you just spoiled the story line for me. No point in progressing in pve now.

;P

PBpsy · October 2014

Vizier wrote: »

I wouldn't say getting by is the only factor of what it should be like. I say if you can get by after PvP balances were made that is good enough.

If you are basing your enjoyment of the game on OP skills I don't know what to tell you. I would have to assume an extreme fickleness since the basic tweaking of skills has no impact on the story or immersion or role play.

It is not about OP abilities it is about good PVE combat which for a lot of people is more important than the story, rp and pvp.I am not saying they are not important especially in the case of pvp balance since I do spend ~30% of my time in PVP but it's certainly not what is holding me and many people here. ESO has a really good pve combat system compared to most mmos up there and the group pve content is pretty great up to now and It could get much better.It may not be that important to you but that is what keeps many people here.

I do fear that a lot of it will be broken do to adjustments for pvp that will remove some of the functionality and dynamic of the pve combat system. One of the reason is that there are two types of skill nerfs or adjustments.There are power nerfs and utility nerfs. A power nerf would be a 10% reduction in damage and I usually have absolutely no problems with such a nerf and they are the nerfs that are usually promote pve class/skill equality.

The utility nerfs are adjustments that completely remove some thing that skill could do or some way that skill could be used. The utility nerfs are usually what pvp balancing demands and what is really annoying and damaging for pve combat. It also happens that those skills are not that OP in pve. Since release there have been some utility nerfs that have indeed made some of my builds less fun to play even though not necessary less powerful. Also since the pve content depends on the type of things skills can do

Let's take as an example one of the most hated skills in pvp. Bolt escape and morphs. I think anyone can see that the cries for nerfs for pvp to BE will only stop when the utility of this skill will be completely removed. We have seen what the last nerf did to the complaints.Nothing . It is an escape skill people do not like having people escaping and as long this skill will be capable of performing that task there will complaints. I am not saying that this will ever happen but if it did I hope you would see how it would be a frustrating change for many pve builds.( Before someone comes here and says that um buthurt about Sorc nerfs I would like to mention that my highest level sorc is a heavy armor using level 20 melee sorc and I hate BE in PVP since it can break cloak which I definitely think it shouldn't. )

Another good example would be Reflective Scales.At what point would this skill be nerfed enough for pvp. I am pretty sure a lot people complaining about it would not be satisfied for anything short of complete removal from the game.

There are also a lot of other utility adjustments such as skill range and internal cooldowns etc which may be needed for pvp balance but may completely ruin some skills in pve combat.

Vizier wrote: »

If Bat Swarm is nerfed, or vamp stacking speeds fixed or ultimate generation slowed what real difference does that have on the quality of PvE game play? Does it mean you can't complete content? Does it mean your party is going to wipe each and every time from now till eternity? Is the challenge too much for you? Does it mean you can't enjoy the game now? Are the colors less bright? The sounds less enjoyable? The story quality of delivery lessened? Of course not. The fact is needing to kill a few more NPCs to ready your ultimate means next to nothing in the PVE universe. It might mean you change up some preferences for build but in the end changes nothing that would alter my enjoyment of the PVE elements.

As I said before for a lot of us the mechanics and complexity of the end game pve combat does mater.I think ZOS should work a lot more on making the pve end game group and solo combat more compelling complex and fun.I am actually kind of disappointed that ZOS is trying to nerf the difficulty of pve content so no It is not to difficult for me .I am sure that I am not the only one who is here primarily for that . For me it does certainly count more than the story which is at TES standards which means not that great at all for a crpg. The story would also not keep me subbed because let's see I already went trough it about 3 months ago and ZOS couldn't ever come out with quality story at constant and high enough rate to keep me subbed. RP is even lower for most players

The truth is that very striped down underpowered system would make end game combat just boring in both current and future content and a lot of people would just leave to the plethora of upcoming single and even co-op rpgs.

It is kind of funny but yes some nerfs in 1.5 will make some of the skills less visually appealing for me.

Vizier wrote: »

Am I shortsighted in this? I don't think so. I think I'm just practical and focused on what matters. I've spent thousands of hours playing TES game over the last 15 years. You could say I'm obsessed with it. I enjoy the PVE play and RP elements as much as the next guy. That, however, doesn't change a thing when it comes to understanding the priority of PvP balance over PVE gameplay. I'm not going to cry and moan that I have to cast flaming talons a couple extra times or that I need to hit 3 mobs with funnel health instead of two to bring in the same health regeneration. Come on man. It's not as if these changes turn every mob into Umbra for you.

Seriously, when was the last time any of the pvp balance complaints could have been solved by a 10%/20% reduction/increase in damage or health returned and not some complete reworking of that skill? A lot of skill do need to be reworked if there is to be true pvp balance but the reworked version may be totally worthless and inappropriate for the pve content .This is why ZOS should be very careful in their balancing and even consider separate skill mechanics for pvp/pve.I am for this not because I am against PVP balance but because I think without it they may never actually go far enough with the adjustments of some skills for pvp balance.

Also funnel health doesn't work that way, health returned does not depend on number of target hit with it.

Vizier wrote: »

It's not that difficult. These changes made for PvP balance purposes do not in any way reduce my enjoyment of the PvE elements of the game. If they do for you and others I would say you should rethink your priorities and ask how such things could ruin your TES experience here...

For a lot of the players the most important factor for PVE is the quality of group and solo end game combat mechanics . Really a lot of us do not quite give a damn about RP or the story in that dungeon or that trial especially after our first run. What counts is if the combat and mechanics are challenging ,fair,compelling and fun.A lot of it depends on the skills we have and if those skills are completely designed for something else entirely (PVP) the probability of those demands being satisfied is pretty low. It also limits the type of mechanics we can have in pve. Imagine if skills were instead balanced with some really wacky,fun dungeon boss mechanics in mind . Would you enjoy that pvp?

Nerouyn · October 2014

dharbert wrote: »

So, to summarize, this is a PvE game that just so happens to have a little bit of PvP in it for those who like enjoy it.

I think you make some good points but that isn't a fair characterisation of the game.

True, there's a huge amount of developer scripted PvE content. But in the kind of PvP ESO has implemented players are the content. It's dynamic and unscripted but still content and quite significant to the game's longevity. PvE content is finite. PvP content isn't.

That said, as a new player I'm leaning towards uncancelling my sub and sticking around but have no interest at this point in PvP.

Animation cancelling is a pet of hate of mine. I've only seen it in one other game but I think it's immersion breaking and frankly ridiculous. If I stick around long enough I'll probably go into Cyrodiil to get skyshards but not bother with anything else.

I also regards morphs which are clearly geared more towards PvE or PvP as a huge disincentive to PvP. To be competitive I'd need to go pay gold to get all the PvP morphs. Ugh.

All this PvE v PvP balance angst - not unique to this MMO - could have been avoided if they'd just not had classes and not had a skill point cap. If at any given time certain abilities were overpowered everyone could (and most probably would) use them too until fixed.