Lack of support for melee sorcerer.
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Crescent✭✭✭✭That's because Haste is not working properly. They already said it was going to be fixed. Just like shadow cloak bugs.
Once it gets fixed the gaps only increase.
And the crappy part is since that everybody is in tears over sorcs in PvP melee sorcs don't stand much of a chance at getting looked at, or even issues that affect every sorc like the daedric summoning line sucking period outside storm astronach and hardened ward.0 -
Varicite✭✭✭✭✭
✭That's because Haste is not working properly. They already said it was going to be fixed. Just like shadow cloak bugs.
Once it gets fixed the gaps only increase.
And the crappy part is since that everybody is in tears over sorcs in PvP melee sorcs don't stand much of a chance at getting looked at, or even issues that affect every sorc like the daedric summoning line sucking period outside storm astronach and hardened ward.
It is working properly, which has been confirmed by devs, the effect just isn't all that noticeable except over long periods of time.
It's being changed to make it more attractive, since most people use animation cancelling anyway, and nobody takes Haste for the actual buff it provides; just the morph effects, which are still pretty decent.
Totally agree that the Summoning line should probably be reworked or removed entirely when Spellcrafting becomes available (since you can just make your own summon spells that are cooler anyway). W/ that said, Bound Armor also has its uses as well.
Also agree that magicka builds completely outshining their stamina counterparts is cause for concern when trying to get buffs to stamina-oriented builds for classes. It's hard to say "hey, buff Sorc xxxxx" when people will just think about the Streak-spamming shield stacking Sorc who just smashed them in PvP and think they are the same thing. : /0 -
Magdalina✭✭✭✭✭
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There are TWO skills you can get out of any of your class trees on a melee sorcerer. Critical Surge and Thundering Presence/Boundless Storm. That's it.
But...don't magicka sorc also use 2-3 sorc skills at best? Magicka oriented sorc dps is likely to have Crit Surge on the bar, Crushing Shock, Impulse, Inner Light and an optional skill which could be Enldess Fury/Mage's Wrath or Crystal Fragments, but that's about it. Your unfavourite bathrobe builds are relying on destro staff, not sorc abilities, just like you have to rely on your weapon abilities.0 -
Crescent✭✭✭✭
There are TWO skills you can get out of any of your class trees on a melee sorcerer. Critical Surge and Thundering Presence/Boundless Storm. That's it.
But...don't magicka sorc also use 2-3 sorc skills at best? Magicka oriented sorc dps is likely to have Crit Surge on the bar, Crushing Shock, Impulse, Inner Light and an optional skill which could be Enldess Fury/Mage's Wrath or Crystal Fragments, but that's about it. Your unfavourite bathrobe builds are relying on destro staff, not sorc abilities, just like you have to rely on your weapon abilities.
That's more optional to be honest, just like how some of them have the option of using daedric mines on large bosses or the twilight.
But your point doesn't detract but rather add to my complaint.
The sorc skills are simply a pile of redundancies. You got Daedric Curse, which does less damage than crushing shock or crystal fragments despite taking 3/6 seconds to activate. And since we only have 5 slots in the bar skills that are redundant end up being eliminated for the better option.
We have really bad passives too outside of power stone and exploitation.
For example, 5% extra damage on stormcalling spells. Really? The only worthwhile damaging stormcalling spell we have is an execute, so we get a 5% damage boost to a spell that's only usable at 20% hp. That's really bad, it doesn't actually translate to a 5% damage boost, it's way smaller because how little uptime there is on the benefit.
The entire daedric summoning traits outside power stone are terrible as well. 10% extra damage on a twilight? The twilight does such minuscule damage, and the familiar even less. 150 DPS on the twilight is generous, that means for 2 points in the trait you get an extra 15 DPS out of the crappy pet, what a waste.
Extra movement speed on a familiar, who still has problem hitting targets because he stops moving to do a tail swipe, and misses moving targets as a result.
Then you have 20% extra health regen. At a base of 40 health regen, which is what you have without accessories, you get 7 extra health regen for 2 trait points, what garbage! Let's assume you stacked accessories, that would put you at around 90-100 health regen. The trait then gives you a measly extra 20 health regen in a game where monsters autoattack swing for 100-200+ damage! That's not even talking elites.
Rebate, another awful passive that just puts salt on the wound since we all know pets die left and right, especially the twilight with its pitiful HP pool, 2 sec cast time summon and the mana refund doesn't even cover the entire cost of the summon.
Then you have blood magic, which is only useful on a caster build that uses crystal fragments, because no other build will make frequent use of dark magic spells given the outrageous magicka costs of all of the dark magick spells except rune prison.
Daedric Mines, don't need to explain. Horrible gimmick of a spell, and a ruinous amount of magicka cost on top of the arming time and only functioning on large creatures.
Then we have the crappiest non-crit based heal, Dark Exchange. While the DK and Nightblade get their own health and resources back instantly, we have to channel a spell, doing no DPS for 4 seconds and wiping out half of your stamina bar. This spell isn't even useful for a melee sorcerer, since we have no stamina regen at all and can't afford to sacrifice stamina.
Lightning Flood, no comment. Pitiful damage if nobody activates its synergy, meaning its useless for the solo sorcerer, and most people are better off spamming impulse instead of wasting a cast time on a synergy.
Critical Surge is dead on arrival as our only viable healing on pvp with all the people running impenetrable armor so our crits are gone. On the PvE side this ability KILLS any build variety, because it makes it so that you only use daggers and only traits and bonuses related to crit chance if you want returns on the spell. The spell also costs an arm and a leg in magicka.
So yeah caster sorcerers might also discard a lot of their class skills, but at least the damaging ones they do have like fragments and with 2300+ magicka the restoring twilight actually do something more than tickle, and they can use spells like streak and crit surge without going oom in 3 usages.
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Varicite✭✭✭✭✭
✭Then we have the crappiest non-crit based heal, Dark Exchange. While the DK and Nightblade get their own health and resources back instantly, we have to channel a spell, doing no DPS for 4 seconds and wiping out half of your stamina bar. This spell isn't even useful for a melee sorcerer, since we have no stamina regen at all and can't afford to sacrifice stamina.
Wait, what?
Can we please stop just making stuff up to further our own agenda?
The only "big heals" NBs get are dependent on killing somebody (either Marked or w/ Killer's Blade).
There's nothing "instant" about waiting 10 seconds for Strife to heal you. And Sap Essence is decent when hitting 6 mobs, which is pretty situational.
In almost every situation, channeling Dark Exchange for a couple seconds and cancelling it is a far better alternative that isn't dependent on any specific circumstances.
Maybe you meant to say "Templar", because that actually would have made sense.
/shrug1 -
Crescent✭✭✭✭Templar was obvious, but leeching strikes is what I was referring to. Pair sap essence with veil of blades and leeching strikes, and the NB has a non-crit based healing source that is not negated by impenetrable.
It's an incredibly effective combo to survive for prolonged periods in both PvE and PvP.
And no, channeling Dark Exchange for a few seconds hardly heals you considering you're just standing there eating damage and dealing none in return. Prior to the VR nerf a mob autoattack was outdamaging a single Exchange tick. Channeling it was a really good way to die.
Dark Exchange only works on caster sorcerers who can spam streak enough times to be able to safely channel DE. It's an absolutely atrocious heal in any other scenario.Edited by Crescent on October 13, 2014 8:18PM0 -
Varicite✭✭✭✭✭
✭Templar was obvious, but leeching strikes is what I was referring to. Pair sap essence with veil of blades and leeching strikes, and the NB has a non-crit based healing source that is not negated by impenetrable.
It's an incredibly effective combo to survive for prolonged periods in both PvE and PvP.
And no, channeling Dark Exchange for a few seconds hardly heals you considering you're just standing there eating damage and dealing none in return. Prior to the VR nerf a mob autoattack was outdamaging a single Exchange tick. Channeling it was a really good way to die.
Dark Exchange only works on caster sorcerers who can spam streak enough times to be able to safely channel DE. It's an absolutely atrocious heal in any other scenario.
It's still way faster than Sap Essence + Leeching Strikes...
Leeching is like 2% health every second, which is great for sustain, but is not anywhere even remotely close to a great heal under pressure.
You're comparing an Ultimate, an ability that depends on having multiple targets, and a 2% health proc w/ a 1 second cooldown to the single ability Sorcs have in Dark Exchange.
That just seems a little contrived to me. : P0 -
Crescent✭✭✭✭Because I'm comparing a survival toolset, not just the ability alone. A NB has all those tools to be in the thick of melee for a good while.
The sorcerer has no such thing. That's why they're so dependent on streak/ball of lightning and yet they keep making its cost prohibitive for anyone who isn't stacking robe passives and a warlock set bonus with magicka pots, and god forbid the dumb emperorship bonuses.
More importantly it's also a comparison of function. You really can't just stop leeching strikes or swallow soul. They're instant. Dark Exchange is a channel that is so stupidly easy to stop, especially in melee range.
Channels should reflect a reward proportionate to the risk. Which is not the case.
The sorcerer has crit surge and dark exchange. Dark Exchange is kinda bad on a caster, and absolutely terrible as melee. And crit surge is well broken to hell in PvP with people running impenetrable.
People complain that we spam streak but really that's about the only defensive maneuver we have. We don't have the opening burst of a NB or the durability of a DK/Templar.
Hell, I look at something like biting jabs and it's just silly the damage that does while the only instant cast class skill we have has a 3/6 sec delay and nowhere near the damage potential of all these skills.0 -
Mojomonkeyman✭✭✭✭✭
✭I am far more concerned with the increasing number of bullet points on the list of bugs that totally destroy the class:
- Quickly recasting "Volatile Familiar" will result in losing the magicka cost plus the 10% max magicka drain without the pet appearing or doing damage AND without returning the 10% max magicka. Nothing happens but you lose roughly 600 Magicka.
This Bug got introduced with 1.4
- "Streak" still bugs regularly, draining magicka without porting
- "Might of the guild" is not properly increasing damage by 20% for spell and is not affecting "Velocious Curse" anymore. The "Velocious Curse" bug also got introduced recently. I could degeneration boost my curse a while ago without problems.
All of those and many more got reported ingame without any feedback or fixes so far. Dear ZOS, too busy throwing endless amounts of love on overbuffed nightblades or could we maybe have some fixes, too?Koma Grey, Chocolate Thunder, Little Mojo, Dagoth Mojo & Mojomancy0 -
Brasseurfb16_ESO✭✭✭✭Because I'm comparing a survival toolset, not just the ability alone. A NB has all those tools to be in the thick of melee for a good while.
The sorcerer has no such thing. That's why they're so dependent on streak/ball of lightning and yet they keep making its cost prohibitive for anyone who isn't stacking robe passives and a warlock set bonus with magicka pots, and god forbid the dumb emperorship bonuses.
More importantly it's also a comparison of function. You really can't just stop leeching strikes or swallow soul. They're instant. Dark Exchange is a channel that is so stupidly easy to stop, especially in melee range.
Swallow Soul is probably one of the worst skills in PvP for sustain, because it relies on the damage done by the skill to actualy heal you. If you hit anything with a Shield or blocking the skill you end up with pathetic healing amounts.
Leeching Strike is also a horrible heal, we are speaking about 50-60hp every sec while using light/heavy attacks, not to mention you are loosing a lot of weapon/spell power for doing so, reducing any other healing powers even further.
The only decent self heal Nightblades have is Soul Tether, their ultimate, but it works in similar fashion to Swallow Soul. Any damage mitigation or shields will greatly reduce its effect.
Sorcerers realy don't have to complain on the healing departement. I understand your best tool for healing is currently not working because of impenetrable beeing a broken aspect of PvP. But Sorcerers clearly don't lack any sustain in their toolsets.Edited by Brasseurfb16_ESO on October 14, 2014 11:24AM1 -
Crescent✭✭✭✭Brasseurfb16_ESO wrote: »Because I'm comparing a survival toolset, not just the ability alone. A NB has all those tools to be in the thick of melee for a good while.
The sorcerer has no such thing. That's why they're so dependent on streak/ball of lightning and yet they keep making its cost prohibitive for anyone who isn't stacking robe passives and a warlock set bonus with magicka pots, and god forbid the dumb emperorship bonuses.
More importantly it's also a comparison of function. You really can't just stop leeching strikes or swallow soul. They're instant. Dark Exchange is a channel that is so stupidly easy to stop, especially in melee range.
Swallow Soul is probably one of the worst skills in PvP for sustain, because it relies on the damage done by the skill to actualy heal you. If you hit anything with a Shield or blocking the skill you end up with pathetic healing amounts.
Leeching Strike is also a horrible heal, we are speaking about 50-60hp every sec while using light/heavy attacks, not to mention you are loosing a lot of weapon/spell power for doing so, reducing any other healing powers even further.
The only decent self heal Nightblades have is Soul Tether, their ultimate, but it works in similar fashion to Swallow Soul. Any damage mitigation or shields will greatly reduce its effect.
Sorcerers realy don't have to complain on the healing departement. I understand your best tool for healing is currently not working because of impenetrable beeing a broken aspect of PvP. But Sorcerers clearly don't lack any sustain in their toolsets.
If you're going to talk about blocking reducing your heals, don't be dishonest and pretend like blocking a melee sorcerer using crit surge isn't reducing his heals to hell as well.
And what other healing tool there is for a melee sorcerer? Oh, right, that one you have to self CC for 4 seconds (a channel), open to interruption, that drains the very resource pool you need for stamina based weaponskills and most importantly CC breaks.
Don't come here with your NB whine, the class is obviously better off than a melee sorcerer with their melee toolset. It's not my fault all you see in cyrodil is shield wearing streak spam sorcerers because instead of nerfing magicka reduction from robes and the OP pots people use to keep spamming on top of the Warlock set, they go and nerf streak costs.
It would seem to everyone that caster sorcs have tons of survival but that's solely a product of those outliers in gear and consumables allowing them to constantly streak away into safety. That kind of survival is not interchangeable with a melee sorcerer because to be quite honest streak is kind of bad for a melee sorcerer as it serves more consistently as a gap opener than a gap closer (the opposite of teleport strike). And it just so happens that a melee sorcerer wants to close the gap instead of open it.
But fear not, with the incoming Snipe change, stamina bows are going to crush anything that isn't a DK or Templar (the only classes who were given projectile reflection, can class utility distribution possibly get any more lopsided? They piled all of the utility on 2 classes with the best survival and AoE options in the game).Edited by Crescent on October 14, 2014 12:57PM1 -
Brasseurfb16_ESO✭✭✭✭Brasseurfb16_ESO wrote: »Because I'm comparing a survival toolset, not just the ability alone. A NB has all those tools to be in the thick of melee for a good while.
The sorcerer has no such thing. That's why they're so dependent on streak/ball of lightning and yet they keep making its cost prohibitive for anyone who isn't stacking robe passives and a warlock set bonus with magicka pots, and god forbid the dumb emperorship bonuses.
More importantly it's also a comparison of function. You really can't just stop leeching strikes or swallow soul. They're instant. Dark Exchange is a channel that is so stupidly easy to stop, especially in melee range.
Swallow Soul is probably one of the worst skills in PvP for sustain, because it relies on the damage done by the skill to actualy heal you. If you hit anything with a Shield or blocking the skill you end up with pathetic healing amounts.
Leeching Strike is also a horrible heal, we are speaking about 50-60hp every sec while using light/heavy attacks, not to mention you are loosing a lot of weapon/spell power for doing so, reducing any other healing powers even further.
The only decent self heal Nightblades have is Soul Tether, their ultimate, but it works in similar fashion to Swallow Soul. Any damage mitigation or shields will greatly reduce its effect.
Sorcerers realy don't have to complain on the healing departement. I understand your best tool for healing is currently not working because of impenetrable beeing a broken aspect of PvP. But Sorcerers clearly don't lack any sustain in their toolsets.If you're going to talk about blocking reducing your heals, don't be dishonest and pretend like blocking a melee sorcerer using crit surge isn't reducing his heals to hell as well.
How am I beeing dishonest??? O.o
I just told you in the last paragraph "I understand your best tool for healing is currently not working because of impenetrable beeing a broken aspect of PvP".
Did you read that part?And what other healing tool there is for a melee sorcerer? Oh, right, that one you have to self CC for 4 seconds (a channel), open to interruption, that drains the very resource pool you need for stamina based weaponskills and most importantly CC breaks.
That's not your only way to recover health, you also get Bloodmagic passive, eventualy Twilight Matriarch and you got Conjured Ward to bolster your health. Each of course got their own weaknesses and level of efficiency, but its not like you got no tools for sustain, especialy should I add the utility from Ball Lightning alone.Don't come here with your NB whine, the class is obviously better off than a melee sorcerer with their melee toolset. It's not my fault all you see in cyrodil is shield wearing streak spam sorcerers because instead of nerfing magicka reduction from robes and the OP pots people use to keep spamming on top of the Warlock set, they go and nerf streak costs.
You are the one complaining about Sorcerers surviability and comparing it with the surviability of a Nightblade in a PvP situation, telling us : "A NB has all those tools to be in the thick of melee for a good while."
Have you ever played a Nightblade in Pvp? Unless you go the resto staff route, you get obliterated if you stay for to long in melee range and you can nowhere stay as long as a Templar or a DK. Especialy if you ARE a melee centric build.It would seem to everyone that caster sorcs have tons of survival but that's solely a product of those outliers in gear and consumables allowing them to constantly streak away into safety. That kind of survival is not interchangeable with a melee sorcerer because to be quite honest streak is kind of bad for a melee sorcerer as it serves more consistently as a gap opener than a gap closer (the opposite of teleport strike). And it just so happens that a melee sorcerer wants to close the gap instead of open it.
The ranged sorcerers have good surviability because they got the mobility and protection from ball lightning and can take advantage more easely from the shield stacking mechanic.
I know Stamina Sorcerers have issues in PvP because their healing abilities depends so much on Surge which doesn't work against impenetrable. But the issue is very similar for any build following the Stamina route. DKs and Templars might do a little better, because some of their ability scale with health rather than magicka, but if you compare them with their own Magicka builds they are doing very pale to their own counterparts.
So the issue isn't related to Sorcerers specificaly, but rather the disbalance between Stamina and Magicka builds.But fear not, with the incoming Snipe change, stamina bows are going to crush anything that isn't a DK or Templar (the only classes who were given projectile reflection, can class utility distribution possibly get any more lopsided? They piled all of the utility on 2 classes with the best survival and AoE options in the game).
Templars reflect projectiles from bows? That's a new one...Edited by Brasseurfb16_ESO on October 14, 2014 3:44PM0 -
Crescent✭✭✭✭Brasseurfb16_ESO wrote: »Brasseurfb16_ESO wrote: »Because I'm comparing a survival toolset, not just the ability alone. A NB has all those tools to be in the thick of melee for a good while.
The sorcerer has no such thing. That's why they're so dependent on streak/ball of lightning and yet they keep making its cost prohibitive for anyone who isn't stacking robe passives and a warlock set bonus with magicka pots, and god forbid the dumb emperorship bonuses.
More importantly it's also a comparison of function. You really can't just stop leeching strikes or swallow soul. They're instant. Dark Exchange is a channel that is so stupidly easy to stop, especially in melee range.
Swallow Soul is probably one of the worst skills in PvP for sustain, because it relies on the damage done by the skill to actualy heal you. If you hit anything with a Shield or blocking the skill you end up with pathetic healing amounts.
Leeching Strike is also a horrible heal, we are speaking about 50-60hp every sec while using light/heavy attacks, not to mention you are loosing a lot of weapon/spell power for doing so, reducing any other healing powers even further.
The only decent self heal Nightblades have is Soul Tether, their ultimate, but it works in similar fashion to Swallow Soul. Any damage mitigation or shields will greatly reduce its effect.
Sorcerers realy don't have to complain on the healing departement. I understand your best tool for healing is currently not working because of impenetrable beeing a broken aspect of PvP. But Sorcerers clearly don't lack any sustain in their toolsets.If you're going to talk about blocking reducing your heals, don't be dishonest and pretend like blocking a melee sorcerer using crit surge isn't reducing his heals to hell as well.
How am I beeing dishonest??? O.o
I just told you in the last paragraph "I understand your best tool for healing is currently not working because of impenetrable beeing a broken aspect of PvP".
Did you read that part?And what other healing tool there is for a melee sorcerer? Oh, right, that one you have to self CC for 4 seconds (a channel), open to interruption, that drains the very resource pool you need for stamina based weaponskills and most importantly CC breaks.
That's not your only way to recover health, you also get Bloodmagic passive, eventualy Twilight Matriarch and you got Conjured Ward to bolster your health. Each of course got their own weaknesses and level of efficiency, but its not like you got no tools for sustain, especialy should I add the utility from Ball Lightning alone.Don't come here with your NB whine, the class is obviously better off than a melee sorcerer with their melee toolset. It's not my fault all you see in cyrodil is shield wearing streak spam sorcerers because instead of nerfing magicka reduction from robes and the OP pots people use to keep spamming on top of the Warlock set, they go and nerf streak costs.
You are the one complaining about Sorcerers surviability and comparing it with the surviability of a Nightblade in a PvP situation, telling us : "A NB has all those tools to be in the thick of melee for a good while."
Have you ever played a Nightblade in Pvp? Unless you go the resto staff route, you get obliterated if you stay for to long in melee range and you can nowhere stay as long as a Templar or a DK. Especialy if you ARE a melee centric build.It would seem to everyone that caster sorcs have tons of survival but that's solely a product of those outliers in gear and consumables allowing them to constantly streak away into safety. That kind of survival is not interchangeable with a melee sorcerer because to be quite honest streak is kind of bad for a melee sorcerer as it serves more consistently as a gap opener than a gap closer (the opposite of teleport strike). And it just so happens that a melee sorcerer wants to close the gap instead of open it.
The ranged sorcerers have good surviability because they got the mobility and protection from ball lightning and can take advantage more easely from the shield stacking mechanic.
I know Stamina Sorcerers have issues in PvP because their healing abilities depends so much on Surge which doesn't work against impenetrable. But the issue is very similar for any build following the Stamina route. DKs and Templars might do a little better, because some of their ability scale with health rather than magicka, but if you compare them with their own Magicka builds they are doing very pale to their own counterparts.
So the issue isn't related to Sorcerers specificaly, but rather the disbalance between Stamina and Magicka builds.But fear not, with the incoming Snipe change, stamina bows are going to crush anything that isn't a DK or Templar (the only classes who were given projectile reflection, can class utility distribution possibly get any more lopsided? They piled all of the utility on 2 classes with the best survival and AoE options in the game).
Templars reflect projectiles from bows? That's a new one...
- Blocking affects every offensive healing attack. Your swallow soul's damage gets blocked to nothingness? So does crit surge damage. It's an irrelevant point. Your heals are instant cast, none of them are a channel that roots you in place unable to do anything for 4 seconds and wipes out over half of your most important pvp resource (stamina).
-LOL Blood Magic. 5% HP heal on a dark magic spell? Which one? You mean Encase, which I can cast exactly twice before I run OOM? (and if I run oom, I don't have mana for crit surge or storm form, so I'm trading both of those for 2 casts that net me a 10% HP heal).
-You obviously don't play a sorcerer. The Twilight on a melee character doesn't even last 3 seconds under fire. A normal PvE mob will kill it in 5 seconds flat. Over half the time the "heal" from her bugs out, and most importantly it's such a terrible heal because it triggers at 35% HP and is a CHANNELED heal, which means by 35% HP most classes can kill you before she gets 2 ticks in of her channel, assuming it even works. And also that channel triggers for any other low health player with a 30 sec cd, so you can't even rely on it.
- Sorry to tell you, but Hardened Ward sucks on a stamina sorcerer. At best it absorbs 2 autoattacks from a normal PvE mob, which is less than a pvp opponent. It also has a cast time/animation.
I really think you don't understand the extreme costs of most sorcerer skills. They are absurdly high and I can cast 2-3 of the things you mentioned before running OOM.1 -
Brasseurfb16_ESO✭✭✭✭Oh... you want to play that game! I understand now!
- Blocking affects every offensive healing attack. Your swallow soul's damage gets blocked to nothingness? So does crit surge damage. It's an irrelevant point. Your heals are instant cast, none of them are a channel that roots you in place unable to do anything for 4 seconds and wipes out over half of your most important pvp resource (stamina).
You are the one irrelevant over there, you still got more options regardless surge having similar weaknesses to Swallow Soul and Soul Tether. Some of your heals might suck depending on situations and have a huge cost, but at least you got something that works during a fight in PvP. If my Nighblade hits any build with any form of mitigation or if he can't get a kill fast enough in PvP, he won't recover barely any health at all.-LOL Blood Magic. 5% HP heal on a dark magic spell? Which one? You mean Encase, which I can cast exactly twice before I run OOM? (and if I run oom, I don't have mana for crit surge or storm form, so I'm trading both of those for 2 casts that net me a 10% HP heal).
They all proc the Blood Magic passive, some of them even mutliple times (like Deadric Tomb or Negate Magic). Again it all depends how you are using those abilities. My PvE Sorcerer Dualwield build uses a mix of Dualwield, Stormcalling and Dark Magic (Supression Field) and does the job just right in PvE, in PvP I switch to my secondary weapon, a bow, since surge doesn't heal me anymore each time I confront a guy with Impenetrable.-You obviously don't play a sorcerer. The Twilight on a melee character doesn't even last 3 seconds under fire. A normal PvE mob will kill it in 5 seconds flat. Over half the time the "heal" from her bugs out, and most importantly it's such a terrible heal because it triggers at 35% HP and is a CHANNELED heal, which means by 35% HP most classes can kill you before she gets 2 ticks in of her channel, assuming it even works. And also that channel triggers for any other low health player with a 30 sec cd, so you can't even rely on it.
- Sorry to tell you, but Hardened Ward sucks on a stamina sorcerer. At best it absorbs 2 autoattacks from a normal PvE mob, which is less than a pvp opponent. It also has a cast time/animation.
See, that's the thing that annoys me the most in your posts. I give you exemples of working healing abilities by stipulating "Each of course got their own weaknesses and level of efficiency" and you try to discredit my point by saying those are terrible abilities in stamina builds (I do agree with you on that) and you try to invent some wabbajack about me not playing a sorcerer because you don't seem to have a grasp with the real issue...I really think you don't understand the extreme costs of most sorcerer skills. They are absurdly high and I can cast 2-3 of the things you mentioned before running OOM.
I have news for you Cupcake,
EVERY MELEE STAMINA BUILDS HAVE ISSUES WITH MAGICKA ABILITIES FOR SUSTAIN
If I play a pure stamina Templar or DK, I'm also going to run OOM after using 2-3 Dragon Blood or Rushed Ceremony and most of my healing abilities which are relying on Magicka and Spellpower are going to be greatly reduced too (except for the couple of unique abilities scaling of Health)
So again, the issue falls down to Stamina Vs Magicka builds, and than you have the issue with Impenetrable beeing a BROKEN aspect of Pvp.Edited by Brasseurfb16_ESO on October 15, 2014 6:33PM0 -
eventide03b14a_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
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I think you're giving to much credit to Leeching Strikes. The heal isn't that fantastic and you reduce your damage by 25%. What class has that kind of penalty for a heal? Every healing ability of a nightblade requires damaging an enemy (a lifetap). You're making nightblades seem a lot better than they are.Templar was obvious, but leeching strikes is what I was referring to. Pair sap essence with veil of blades and leeching strikes, and the NB has a non-crit based healing source that is not negated by impenetrable.
It's an incredibly effective combo to survive for prolonged periods in both PvE and PvP.
And no, channeling Dark Exchange for a few seconds hardly heals you considering you're just standing there eating damage and dealing none in return. Prior to the VR nerf a mob autoattack was outdamaging a single Exchange tick. Channeling it was a really good way to die.
Dark Exchange only works on caster sorcerers who can spam streak enough times to be able to safely channel DE. It's an absolutely atrocious heal in any other scenario.
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Thrymbauld✭✭✭Your core issue isn't that the sorcerer lacks synergy with melee weapons, it's that melee weapons in general don't put out the damage that sorcerer spell rotations do.
Most classes have this issue, it's just magnified when a class that doesn't have a whole lot of short range synergy takes up the mantle because it means that you ARE using the weapon skills.....and they fall short.
It's not really a class problem so much a just another good example of a stamina build problem that arises.2 -
Brasseurfb16_ESO✭✭✭✭eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »
I think you're giving to much credit to Leeching Strikes. The heal isn't that fantastic and you reduce your damage by 25%. What class has that kind of penalty for a heal? Every healing ability of a nightblade requires damaging an enemy (a lifetap). You're making nightblades seem a lot better than they are.Templar was obvious, but leeching strikes is what I was referring to. Pair sap essence with veil of blades and leeching strikes, and the NB has a non-crit based healing source that is not negated by impenetrable.
It's an incredibly effective combo to survive for prolonged periods in both PvE and PvP.
And no, channeling Dark Exchange for a few seconds hardly heals you considering you're just standing there eating damage and dealing none in return. Prior to the VR nerf a mob autoattack was outdamaging a single Exchange tick. Channeling it was a really good way to die.
Dark Exchange only works on caster sorcerers who can spam streak enough times to be able to safely channel DE. It's an absolutely atrocious heal in any other scenario.
Agreed, leeching Strike realy isn't like it used to be.
Edited by Brasseurfb16_ESO on October 15, 2014 6:32PM0 -
eventide03b14a_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
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More importantly what is so wrong with nightblades getting and advantage to a weapon type? Why is that a bad thing?Thrymbauld wrote: »Your core issue isn't that the sorcerer lacks synergy with melee weapons, it's that melee weapons in general don't put out the damage that sorcerer spell rotations do.
Most classes have this issue, it's just magnified when a class that doesn't have a whole lot of short range synergy takes up the mantle because it means that you ARE using the weapon skills.....and they fall short.
It's not really a class problem so much a just another good example of a stamina build problem that arises.
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Crescent✭✭✭✭eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »
More importantly what is so wrong with nightblades getting and advantage to a weapon type? Why is that a bad thing?Thrymbauld wrote: »Your core issue isn't that the sorcerer lacks synergy with melee weapons, it's that melee weapons in general don't put out the damage that sorcerer spell rotations do.
Most classes have this issue, it's just magnified when a class that doesn't have a whole lot of short range synergy takes up the mantle because it means that you ARE using the weapon skills.....and they fall short.
It's not really a class problem so much a just another good example of a stamina build problem that arises.
Because their staff builds are just as powerful as sorcerer staff builds, and staff Nightblades are already stupidly strong in trials?
I mean, do you understand the basic concept of game design? If something is even slightly better, it will be brought over the class that is not as good.
If NB by design are better melee, nobody will bother bringing melee sorcerers.1 -
Crescent✭✭✭✭Brasseurfb16_ESO wrote: »Oh... you want to play that game! I understand now!- Blocking affects every offensive healing attack. Your swallow soul's damage gets blocked to nothingness? So does crit surge damage. It's an irrelevant point. Your heals are instant cast, none of them are a channel that roots you in place unable to do anything for 4 seconds and wipes out over half of your most important pvp resource (stamina).
You are the one irrelevant over there, you still got more options regardless surge having similar weaknesses to Swallow Soul and Soul Tether. Some of your heals might suck depending on situations and have a huge cost, but at least you got something that works during a fight in PvP. If my Nighblade hits any build with any form of mitigation or if he can't get a kill fast enough in PvP, he won't recover barely any health at all.-LOL Blood Magic. 5% HP heal on a dark magic spell? Which one? You mean Encase, which I can cast exactly twice before I run OOM? (and if I run oom, I don't have mana for crit surge or storm form, so I'm trading both of those for 2 casts that net me a 10% HP heal).
They all proc the Blood Magic passive, some of them even mutliple times (like Deadric Tomb or Negate Magic). Again it all depends how you are using those abilities. My PvE Sorcerer Dualwield build uses a mix of Dualwield, Stormcalling and Dark Magic (Supression Field) and does the job just right in PvE, in PvP I switch to my secondary weapon, a bow, since surge doesn't heal me anymore each time I confront a guy with Impenetrable.-You obviously don't play a sorcerer. The Twilight on a melee character doesn't even last 3 seconds under fire. A normal PvE mob will kill it in 5 seconds flat. Over half the time the "heal" from her bugs out, and most importantly it's such a terrible heal because it triggers at 35% HP and is a CHANNELED heal, which means by 35% HP most classes can kill you before she gets 2 ticks in of her channel, assuming it even works. And also that channel triggers for any other low health player with a 30 sec cd, so you can't even rely on it.
- Sorry to tell you, but Hardened Ward sucks on a stamina sorcerer. At best it absorbs 2 autoattacks from a normal PvE mob, which is less than a pvp opponent. It also has a cast time/animation.
See, that's the thing that annoys me the most in your posts. I give you exemples of working healing abilities by stipulating "Each of course got their own weaknesses and level of efficiency" and you try to discredit my point by saying those are terrible abilities in stamina builds (I do agree with you on that) and you try to invent some wabbajack about me not playing a sorcerer because you don't seem to have a grasp with the real issue...I really think you don't understand the extreme costs of most sorcerer skills. They are absurdly high and I can cast 2-3 of the things you mentioned before running OOM.
I have news for you Cupcake,
EVERY MELEE STAMINA BUILDS HAVE ISSUES WITH MAGICKA ABILITIES FOR SUSTAIN
If I play a pure stamina Templar or DK, I'm also going to run OOM after using 2-3 Dragon Blood or Rushed Ceremony and most of my healing abilities which are relying on Magicka and Spellpower are going to be greatly reduced too (except for the couple of unique abilities scaling of Health)
So again, the issue falls down to Stamina Vs Magicka builds, and than you have the issue with Impenetrable beeing a BROKEN aspect of Pvp.
You are so full of it. DK abilities point for point cost less magicka than sorcerer skills. Pay some *** attention next time you cast igneous weapons versus critical surge, let alone burning talons compared to encase.
And when you say "varying levels of effectiveness and weaknesses", you are hopeless. Hopeless as in not worth wasting my time. Because the abilities are not situationally weak or inefficient. They're outright useless in any practical sense.
So I'm gonna stop arguing with you and instead pay attention to someone who doesn't list abilities and actually talks about them IN PRACTICE.
P.S. Blood Magic doesn't trigger multiple times. It's a single 5% per cast on all the dark magic class skills. No melee sorcerer uses Daedric Mines; it's the most expensive spell in the game and it only has niche uses by caster sorcs on large bosses in trials.Edited by Crescent on October 15, 2014 10:18PM1 -
Varicite✭✭✭✭✭
✭eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »
More importantly what is so wrong with nightblades getting and advantage to a weapon type? Why is that a bad thing?Thrymbauld wrote: »Your core issue isn't that the sorcerer lacks synergy with melee weapons, it's that melee weapons in general don't put out the damage that sorcerer spell rotations do.
Most classes have this issue, it's just magnified when a class that doesn't have a whole lot of short range synergy takes up the mantle because it means that you ARE using the weapon skills.....and they fall short.
It's not really a class problem so much a just another good example of a stamina build problem that arises.
Because their staff builds are just as powerful as sorcerer staff builds, and staff Nightblades are already stupidly strong in trials?
I mean, do you understand the basic concept of game design? If something is even slightly better, it will be brought over the class that is not as good.
If NB by design are better melee, nobody will bother bringing melee sorcerers.
As it stands, literally every class has a magicka build that tops the best stamina builds out there.
So it really seems kind of like a moot point, as by your logic, nobody is going to be bringing a melee anything.
Theoretically, a stamina Sorc and NB should parse fairly closely in numbers, as the vast majority of the damage they deal would be coming from weapon abilities and the buffs they currently bring are fairly similar.
Sorc = fulltime weapon damage buff, 12% heavy attack damage buff, passive mini-executes (proc off weapon enchants and Lightning Form)
NB = 30% stam regen passive, resource gain buff (11% damage debuff), situational AoE weapon damage buff, 12% heavy attack damage
I don't compare executes from either of the classes because if you really want an execute as a stamina build, you should probably be using a 2hander bar which is better than either Mage's Fury or Impale for a stam build.
For CC abilities, the scale tips toward the Sorc for an AoE root, single-target knockdown, single-target incapacitate.
For escape abilities, the scale tips toward NB solely because of the increasing magicka cost of Bolt Escape making it very slightly less spammable than Shadow Cloak. Sorcs do have Lightning Form to fall back on, though. Let's get one thing straight though; neither a stam NB or stam Sorc has the magicka to cast these abilities more than 2-3 times.
Every class is "by design" a better melee than the 1 class that was designed around ranged magicka combat. This is a blessing and a curse; for magicka builds, as there are 0 Sorc abilities that are mitigated by armor or use weapon crit, it is extremely easy to build. For stamina builds, it leaves you a bit resource-dry, unfortunately.
However, it's laughable at best to assume that a melee Sorc suddenly can't break 1k dps (which is around where all the highest-parsing stamina builds are currently).
Arguing that they have fewer passives that aid w/ a stamina-focused build is one thing, but the gap between classes' melee builds is not even remotely as wide as you are pretending it is here.
I feel like you are purposely downplaying the fact that the classes you are comparing are both still able to achieve comparable dps numbers despite their differences.
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Crescent✭✭✭✭Who the hell uses heavy attacks in a stamina build? Why would you even post that up as if any trial sorcerer was running bound armaments? At best with the changes heavy attacks will still contribute a minority of your damage compared to a flying blade/light attack weaving spam.
Either way with the changes to 1.5 every stamina user will be using Snipe and a bow anyways, which will only go in further favor for the nightblade as longer cast spells make haste more noticeable.
Hell a Snipe build might give caster DPS a run for its money even if stamina will still suck at AoE.Edited by Crescent on October 15, 2014 11:18PM0 -
Varicite✭✭✭✭✭
✭Who the hell uses heavy attacks in a stamina build?
Most of the people that I've seen breaking 1k dps w/ a stamina build have done it using heavy attack clipping.
I'm sure it's also possible using light attacks, but I can't recall any specific builds using light attacks outside of the execute phase.
/shrugEdited by Varicite on October 16, 2014 12:39AM0 -
Crescent✭✭✭✭Who the hell uses heavy attacks in a stamina build? Why would you even post that up as if any trial sorcerer was running bound armaments?Who the hell uses heavy attacks in a stamina build?
Most of the people that I've seen breaking 1k dps w/ a stamina build have done it using heavy attack clipping.
I'm sure it's also possible using light attacks, but I can't recall any specific builds using light attacks outside of the execute phase.
/shrug
Atropos's Reaver build? The melee sorcerer build uses flying blade spam clipped by light attacks. You get more proc effects over time in the long run and the build's largest DPS contribution comes from flying blade itself, which using heavy attack clipping gets you less of in total during a fight.
I know of no sorcerer whatsoever that does bound armaments in trials either.
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Brasseurfb16_ESO✭✭✭✭You are so full of it. DK abilities point for point cost less magicka than sorcerer skills. Pay some *** attention next time you cast igneous weapons versus critical surge, let alone burning talons compared to encase.
Excuse me, but Critical Surge isn't Igneous Weapons... Critical Surge is one of the most efficient heals in therm of HpM (or Health per Magicka). You won't find any cheaper heals unless its a free cast like Repentance or Leeching Strike.So I'm gonna stop arguing with you and instead pay attention to someone who doesn't list abilities and actually talks about them IN PRACTICE.
P.S. Blood Magic doesn't trigger multiple times. It's a single 5% per cast on all the dark magic class skills. No melee sorcerer uses Daedric Mines; it's the most expensive spell in the game and it only has niche uses by caster sorcs on large bosses in trials.
Yeah stop arguing with me, you say I'm just listing abilities and didn't test them but you don't even know how your own abilities work with their respective passives. Instead of beeing clueless and complaining on these forums, download Tactical Foundry addon instead, try Deadric Mines and Negate Magic (for real this time) look what happens when you use those abilities and tell me again if I'm the one full of it...
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Mendoze✭✭✭
I thought Leeching Strikes only decreases 25% weapon and spell power. In reality damage is combination of for example magicka and spell power, so that -25% is more like -12.5% or maybe even less damage. If I could choose I'd like to have that kind of toggleable skill for sorcerers too, because current critical requirement is not really working in PVP environment. That would work for melee sorcerers too and would make those builds much more viable in PVP. In PVE current system already works really well.eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »I think you're giving to much credit to Leeching Strikes. The heal isn't that fantastic and you reduce your damage by 25%. What class has that kind of penalty for a heal? Every healing ability of a nightblade requires damaging an enemy (a lifetap). You're making nightblades seem a lot better than they are.
Edited by Mendoze on October 16, 2014 12:14PM0 -
Zenimax doesnt care about sorcs. they buff dks,NBs,temps and say nothing about our class.0
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guybrushtb16_ESO✭✭✭✭eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »I think you're giving to much credit to Leeching Strikes. The heal isn't that fantastic and you reduce your damage by 25%. What class has that kind of penalty for a heal? Every healing ability of a nightblade requires damaging an enemy (a lifetap). You're making nightblades seem a lot better than they are.
Leeching Strikes heal is minor because it's basically an afterthought. The skill is completely about resource management, and this is where it shines; it's absolutely monstrous at stamina/magicka generation.1 -
Crescent✭✭✭✭Brasseurfb16_ESO wrote: »You are so full of it. DK abilities point for point cost less magicka than sorcerer skills. Pay some *** attention next time you cast igneous weapons versus critical surge, let alone burning talons compared to encase.
Excuse me, but Critical Surge isn't Igneous Weapons... Critical Surge is one of the most efficient heals in therm of HpM (or Health per Magicka). You won't find any cheaper heals unless its a free cast like Repentance or Leeching Strike.So I'm gonna stop arguing with you and instead pay attention to someone who doesn't list abilities and actually talks about them IN PRACTICE.
P.S. Blood Magic doesn't trigger multiple times. It's a single 5% per cast on all the dark magic class skills. No melee sorcerer uses Daedric Mines; it's the most expensive spell in the game and it only has niche uses by caster sorcs on large bosses in trials.
Yeah stop arguing with me, you say I'm just listing abilities and didn't test them but you don't even know how your own abilities work with their respective passives. Instead of beeing clueless and complaining on these forums, download Tactical Foundry addon instead, try Deadric Mines and Negate Magic (for real this time) look what happens when you use those abilities and tell me again if I'm the one full of it...
It's hard not to call you names by this point when in that post you're quoting I specifically excluded Daedric mines and an ultimate, because Daedric Mines cannot be used by a melee sorcerer without running oom in one cast, and you don't waste an ultimate just to trigger blood passive heals.
You're just being thick on purpose and I have no intention of feeding into this crap. I should have been quicker to end conversation with you the moment you brought a twilight matriarch up.Edited by Crescent on October 16, 2014 6:34PM0 -
Brasseurfb16_ESO✭✭✭✭It's hard not to call you names by this point when in that post you're quoting I specifically excluded Daedric mines and an ultimate, because Daedric Mines cannot be used by a melee sorcerer without running oom in one cast, and you don't waste an ultimate just to trigger blood passive heals.
You're just being thick on purpose and I have no intention of feeding into this crap. I should have been quicker to end conversation with you the moment you brought a twilight matriarch up.
Oh, my bad for responding to your rude and oversized reactions and for trying to make you understand that your Sorcerer sustain isn't bad when the issues you are facing clearly aren't specific to your class but related to the global disbalance between stamina and magicka builds and impenetrable trait.
My bad for telling you that you do got different skills which do work together in a melee sorcerer build and for pointing out that a melee sorcerer did got some synergy between his classes and melee abilities, especialy its ultimate, and for correcting you on the fact (that you slightly exagerated) that sorcerers didn't had any sustain. (Even if the other sorcerers powers are bad in a stamina build, it isn't an excuse nor right to say those are completely useless abilities)
I realy wanted to have a serious and objective discussion with you about melee sorcerers (because I play one too and I enjoy him a lot) and in return I had to face your temper. Well mind you, I also have my own temper and I don't like it when people are trying to stomp me out, especialy when their oppinion is biased and even more when those are unrelated attacks spreading vastly wrong informations for irrelevant reasons.
Anyways, I made my point, you made yours, and since you don't want to have any affairs with me anymore, I'll just respect that and just leave this thread alone.
But realy man, stop beeing mad for basicaly nothing... Its just a game, chill, relax, and enjoy it while it last!
Peace!
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