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"Play as you want" vs Forced Ignorance and Forced immersion.
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TehMagnus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Chat bubbles is like Dyes all over again, a useless element that we don't need to improve the game or fix it's shortcomings but where dev resources where wasted.
At the end of the day, who cares what the big fish making the shots wants or if "Immersion is important to them"? Are they the ones playing the game? Are they the ones paying monthly subscription to "Play how they want"?
We are paying customers, a big part of us wants this issue (because yes, it is an issue) to be addressed and ZOS keeps silent about it.
@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom , @ZOS_TristanK we won't drop the issue until we have an official communication about why our User Interface is so poor and if it's going to be addressed.Edited by TehMagnus on October 13, 2014 7:49AM3 -
Flynch✭✭✭✭If everyone has access to the same tools in-game that are provided by the add-ons, then it's a pretty fair deal.
If it takes little effort by the dev team to implement optional things, then it's really not a big deal at all - I mean, players are already getting these options, just from different sources.
No harm, no foul.Edited by Flynch on October 13, 2014 9:04AM1 -
TehMagnus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭If everyone has access to the same tools in-game that are provided by the add-ons, then it's a pretty fair deal.
If it takes little effort by the dev team to implement optional things, then it's really not a big deal at all - I mean, players are already getting these options, just from different sources.
No harm, no foul.
You clearly didn't read the part where we say that the API isn't giving out enough information, the fact that addons favorise the people who know how to download them and the fact that they are broken by game updates and if the devs leave and nobody takes over the addon it dies;2 -
Xeres14✭✭✭Yes, the user interface is poor but it's not as big as unresponsive controls, content and bug fixes. As long as the API is there to create whatever UI elements are wanted by an addon author then that's good enough. But what if the addon author quits? Find another one. However, not having that addon is hardly game breaking.
And please, stop with the immersion argument. There are a ton of immersion breaking items in this game that singling this one out is silly.3 -
TehMagnus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Y. However, not having that addon is hardly game breaking.
It is. Now that I'm use to it and rely on it to play, I=if I didn't have buff trackers or the ability to modify the look of my Health Stamina Magicka bars, it would be gamebreaking. If I didn't have a minimap it would be gamebreaking. The Q wheel itself IS gamebreaking. WIthout FTC or GGframes or Srendarr's buff tracker, many players would have quit a long time ago because of the UI.And please, stop with the immersion argument. There are a ton of immersion breaking items in this game that singling this one out is silly.
I'm glad you see it this way, if immersion is already broken, then no need to hold on that idiotic excuse as to why the UI sucks that much and they don't want to fix it.
Edited by TehMagnus on October 13, 2014 12:55PM2 -
stitchersflock✭✭✭Dear Zenimax,
Wykkyd's Framework tools have over 1 000 000 downloads.
FTC has around 600 000 downloads.
Number of downloads is NOT an indication of the number of people using the addon. It is only an indicative of the number of people that have downloaded the addon, it doesn't give you the numbers for people who use it vs. the people who tried it, hated it, and promptly deleted it. Doesn't tell you anything about what those potential users have actually "turned on" within the addon itself. It doesn't differentiate between trial users and everyday hardcore users.
So sorry, download numbers for a third party addon isn't a well reasoned argument to demand a change to the UI.4 -
TehMagnus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭stitchersflock wrote: »Dear Zenimax,
Wykkyd's Framework tools have over 1 000 000 downloads.
FTC has around 600 000 downloads.
Number of downloads is NOT an indication of the number of people using the addon. It is only an indicative of the number of people that have downloaded the addon, it doesn't give you the numbers for people who use it vs. the people who tried it, hated it, and promptly deleted it. Doesn't tell you anything about what those potential users have actually "turned on" within the addon itself. It doesn't differentiate between trial users and everyday hardcore users.
So sorry, download numbers for a third party addon isn't a well reasoned argument to demand a change to the UI.
It actually is since you see that at least 1 million times someone thought: this would help improve the game.
When you know that the game prolly doesn't even have half that many subscribers nowadays it proves a lot of things
. More over in any pool made in these forums, a majority has been for changes. Edited by TehMagnus on October 13, 2014 1:06PM7 -
Xeres14✭✭✭It is. Now that I'm use to it and rely on it to play, I=if I didn't have buff trackers or the ability to modify the look of my Health Stamina Magicka bars, it would be gamebreaking. If I didn't have a minimap it would be gamebreaking. The Q wheel itself IS gamebreaking. WIthout FTC or GGframes or Srendarr's buff tracker, many players would have quit a long time ago because of the UI.
Game breaking for you. That's not game breaking. Because you cannot function without it doesn't make it non-functional. Now don't get me wrong, the UI stinks and the Q wheel is so terrible I don't even use it. It always stays on the health potion. But I just don't feel that ZoS devoting resources to this is as important as other things. Yet. Fix up a few of the more important issues like button responsiveness and good end game content (both solo and group).3 -
TehMagnus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭It is. Now that I'm use to it and rely on it to play, I=if I didn't have buff trackers or the ability to modify the look of my Health Stamina Magicka bars, it would be gamebreaking. If I didn't have a minimap it would be gamebreaking. The Q wheel itself IS gamebreaking. WIthout FTC or GGframes or Srendarr's buff tracker, many players would have quit a long time ago because of the UI.
Game breaking for you. That's not game breaking. Because you cannot function without it doesn't make it non-functional. Now don't get me wrong, the UI stinks and the Q wheel is so terrible I don't even use it. It always stays on the health potion. But I just don't feel that ZoS devoting resources to this is as important as other things. Yet. Fix up a few of the more important issues like button responsiveness and good end game content (both solo and group).
It is for many players and the guys working on UI are not the same that are working on game systems so resource excuse is bs. Once again, in any poll made about the UI majority has always been PRO change.Edited by TehMagnus on October 13, 2014 2:21PM1 -
nerevarine1138✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭It is. Now that I'm use to it and rely on it to play, I=if I didn't have buff trackers or the ability to modify the look of my Health Stamina Magicka bars, it would be gamebreaking. If I didn't have a minimap it would be gamebreaking. The Q wheel itself IS gamebreaking. WIthout FTC or GGframes or Srendarr's buff tracker, many players would have quit a long time ago because of the UI.
Game breaking for you. That's not game breaking. Because you cannot function without it doesn't make it non-functional. Now don't get me wrong, the UI stinks and the Q wheel is so terrible I don't even use it. It always stays on the health potion. But I just don't feel that ZoS devoting resources to this is as important as other things. Yet. Fix up a few of the more important issues like button responsiveness and good end game content (both solo and group).
It is for many players and the guys working on UI are not the same that are working on game systems so resource excuse is bs. Once again, in any poll made about the UI majority has always been PRO change.
And we all know that forum polls are the height of good statistical measurements.
You've made your case. You've been making it for months. Stop treating your opinion as objective truth.----
Murray?4 -
Zorrashi✭✭✭✭✭Chat bubbles is like Dyes all over again, a useless element that we don't need to improve the game or fix it's shortcomings but where dev resources where wasted.
At the end of the day, who cares what the big fish making the shots wants or if "Immersion is important to them"? Are they the ones playing the game? Are they the ones paying monthly subscription to "Play how they want"?
We are paying customers, a big part of us wants this issue (because yes, it is an issue) to be addressed and ZOS keeps silent about it.
@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom , @ZOS_TristanK we won't drop the issue until we have an official communication about why our User Interface is so poor and if it's going to be addressed.
Don't you remember the hype when dyes came out? Heck, there is still a thread about showing off dyed armor on the front page of these forums every now and again. As much as they don't hold any real function, it is not as "useless" as you think. For many people, having the ability to color your armor is more than enough to add more fun to game (which, in a sense, is one way of having a 'use').
Those many people, like you and me, are paying subscribers. Many of whom think that dev resources are very well spent in adding something as meager as chat bubbles. Similarly, some paying subscribers simply want a "better UI" while others don't want it changed at all.
It is a bit misleading when you sound like you represent the entire populace.
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R1ckyDaMan✭✭✭✭Y. However, not having that addon is hardly game breaking.
It is. Now that I'm use to it and rely on it to play, I=if I didn't have buff trackers or the ability to modify the look of my Health Stamina Magicka bars, it would be gamebreaking. If I didn't have a minimap it would be gamebreaking. The Q wheel itself IS gamebreaking. WIthout FTC or GGframes or Srendarr's buff tracker, many players would have quit a long time ago because of the UI.And please, stop with the immersion argument. There are a ton of immersion breaking items in this game that singling this one out is silly.
I'm glad you see it this way, if immersion is already broken, then no need to hold on that idiotic excuse as to why the UI sucks that much and they don't want to fix it.
All games are different, people learn methods in one game, not used in another all the time.
If this was a direct sequel or a part of that game series then you would have a valid point, but this is not those other games and please do not use the excuse that it is an mmo and they are mmo's too, like I said before COD has zombies, zero recoil and all manner of things, so battlefield should have them too right?
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Two-Dogs✭✭✭
"It is. Now that I'm use to it and rely on it to play, I=if I didn't have buff trackers or the ability to modify the look of my Health Stamina Magicka bars, it would be gamebreaking. "3 -
Flynch✭✭✭✭If everyone has access to the same tools in-game that are provided by the add-ons, then it's a pretty fair deal.
If it takes little effort by the dev team to implement optional things, then it's really not a big deal at all - I mean, players are already getting these options, just from different sources.
No harm, no foul.
You clearly didn't read the part where we say that the API isn't giving out enough information, the fact that addons favorise the people who know how to download them and the fact that they are broken by game updates and if the devs leave and nobody takes over the addon it dies;
You do realise that what I said actually favours the whole point of the game having the options that are available through add-ons in-game.
You discredit yourself by attacking those that agree with your stance.0 -
TehMagnus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Chat bubbles is like Dyes all over again, a useless element that we don't need to improve the game or fix it's shortcomings but where dev resources where wasted.
At the end of the day, who cares what the big fish making the shots wants or if "Immersion is important to them"? Are they the ones playing the game? Are they the ones paying monthly subscription to "Play how they want"?
We are paying customers, a big part of us wants this issue (because yes, it is an issue) to be addressed and ZOS keeps silent about it.
@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom , @ZOS_TristanK we won't drop the issue until we have an official communication about why our User Interface is so poor and if it's going to be addressed.
Don't you remember the hype when dyes came out? Heck, there is still a thread about showing off dyed armor on the front page of these forums every now and again. As much as they don't hold any real function, it is not as "useless" as you think. For many people, having the ability to color your armor is more than enough to add more fun to game (which, in a sense, is one way of having a 'use').
Those many people, like you and me, are paying subscribers. Many of whom think that dev resources are very well spent in adding something as meager as chat bubbles. Similarly, some paying subscribers simply want a "better UI" while others don't want it changed at all.
It is a bit misleading when you sound like you represent the entire populace.
Ask anyone if they thinkg dies was a good idea instead of fixing bugs, they will say no, so yeah, no matter how much hype they made arround it, it was still useless/0 -
Flynch✭✭✭✭If everyone has access to the same tools in-game that are provided by the add-ons, then it's a pretty fair deal.
If it takes little effort by the dev team to implement optional things, then it's really not a big deal at all - I mean, players are already getting these options, just from different sources.
No harm, no foul.
You clearly didn't read the part where we say that the API isn't giving out enough information, the fact that addons favorise the people who know how to download them and the fact that they are broken by game updates and if the devs leave and nobody takes over the addon it dies;
You do realise that what I said actually favours the whole point of the game having the options that are available through add-ons in-game.
You discredit yourself by attacking those that agree with your stance.
Maybe you should learn to express your ideas in a clearer way.
"If everyone has access to the same tools in-game that are provided by the add-ons, then it's a pretty fair deal."
Are you just looking for a fight or something?3 -
eventide03b14a_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
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I sincerely doubt it. I would say the UI utilizes memory in terms of MB not GB. I doubled my addon memory from 64MB to 128MB and I no longer get any messages about running out of memory. There isn't a whole lot going on in terms of graphics with the UI and I don't need it to be flashier, just more streamlined and informative.My question here when reading the comments is:
How much additional memory are these add-on using in addition to the game?
Would implementing this UI change affect the way lower end PCs can currently run the game, under the minimum system requirements, still be able to do so? Keeping in mind they are already playing with the lowest settings.
Just because you can toggle something on or off, or select not to see it on your screen, doesn't mean it still isn't running in the background.
How many people who are wanting this UI change play the game on a PC with minimum system requirements?
Unfortunately, we have to keep in mind any changes we want, ZOS still has to ensure they work under their own published system requirements, and this could be why a minimalist UI was released. Therefore they allowed third party's to develop add-ons for players to download instead, and they don't have to worry about supporting it.:trollin:0 -
eventide03b14a_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
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Me too. I imagined it like SWG. Not sure if you played that but it was quite similar to what you describe pre JTLS.eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »
I actually want player housing. I also want a world (or at least faction) broker. But what I want the most is a UI that doesn't require the community to maintain it.eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »
It doesn't have to be the doom and gloom you are predicting. What you suggest is that we only have the option between a cluttered UI and nothing at all. How about actually coming up with a UI that has some simple options that allows the player to decide how much they want to see? Basically we want some features that we currently can only get from addons. Let's face it, relying on third party addons has not been working very well. It has caused a myriad of problems. You talk about development resources? So those resources are better spent on things nobody wanted like vet cap increases and inflated numbers, or better lighting in the stained glass windows? I seriously don't think that cost or resources are the problem here. There is an underlying reason why they don't fix the UI even if they are not really honest about it.In other games there has been strong peer pressure to force people to play with certain options that provided detailed information. There are very, very good reasons for restricting such information: because it can become a de facto requirement.
Toggles are not free. They cost development resources, and they can channel game play in directions that the developer doesn't want it to go. They can open exploits; for example, people were using buff / debuff information on opponents in beta to chain lock them out of game play. This is a clear example where giving people precise information (the stun on opponent X expires in 2.3 seconds) gives a big advantage and creates poor game dynamics.
MMO players have become used to a series of conventions, many of which are actually terrible. For example, cluttered UIs; bars and bars of almost identical abilities to mash buttons with; utterly artificial constructs like "aggro", and so on. I really like the current setup. And, more to the point, I find it offensive to have a bunch of people who have no design background whatsoever accusing the designers of being "lazy". The only laziness I see is that from traditional MMO players who can't let go of all of the poor design decisions from other games.
Don't forget Dyes, the amazing dye patch that broke PVP for weeks. Everybody was obviously screaming for the ability to use dyes, not for better UI in stores, not for bug/balance fixes: dyes.
I'm just amazed they haven't released player housing already.
I do want player housing (when i imagined this MMO ~15 years ago, we had whole towns built by players where anyone could build his own house and create shops to sell stuff, creating a whole player driven economy), but when you talk about dev ressources and the best way to put them to use, I don't think Dyes or Player housing should be an immediate priority when you look at some basic things that are still broken or need to be implemented.
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eventide03b14a_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
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I think chat bubbles could be useful in grouping when someone says follow me and you can tell who exactly said it.Chat bubbles is like Dyes all over again, a useless element that we don't need to improve the game or fix it's shortcomings but where dev resources where wasted.
At the end of the day, who cares what the big fish making the shots wants or if "Immersion is important to them"? Are they the ones playing the game? Are they the ones paying monthly subscription to "Play how they want"?
We are paying customers, a big part of us wants this issue (because yes, it is an issue) to be addressed and ZOS keeps silent about it.
@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom , @ZOS_TristanK we won't drop the issue until we have an official communication about why our User Interface is so poor and if it's going to be addressed.:trollin:0 -
eventide03b14a_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
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It doesn't matter what the argument is, you will always agree with ZOS right?nerevarine1138 wrote: »It is. Now that I'm use to it and rely on it to play, I=if I didn't have buff trackers or the ability to modify the look of my Health Stamina Magicka bars, it would be gamebreaking. If I didn't have a minimap it would be gamebreaking. The Q wheel itself IS gamebreaking. WIthout FTC or GGframes or Srendarr's buff tracker, many players would have quit a long time ago because of the UI.
Game breaking for you. That's not game breaking. Because you cannot function without it doesn't make it non-functional. Now don't get me wrong, the UI stinks and the Q wheel is so terrible I don't even use it. It always stays on the health potion. But I just don't feel that ZoS devoting resources to this is as important as other things. Yet. Fix up a few of the more important issues like button responsiveness and good end game content (both solo and group).
It is for many players and the guys working on UI are not the same that are working on game systems so resource excuse is bs. Once again, in any poll made about the UI majority has always been PRO change.
And we all know that forum polls are the height of good statistical measurements.
You've made your case. You've been making it for months. Stop treating your opinion as objective truth.
:trollin:0 -
Melian✭✭✭✭"Play as you want" seems to refer to, you know, playing the game - not playing around with the interface. Just sayin'.1
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TehMagnus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I see ragers 8)eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »
It doesn't matter what the argument is, you will always agree with ZOS right?nerevarine1138 wrote: »It is. Now that I'm use to it and rely on it to play, I=if I didn't have buff trackers or the ability to modify the look of my Health Stamina Magicka bars, it would be gamebreaking. If I didn't have a minimap it would be gamebreaking. The Q wheel itself IS gamebreaking. WIthout FTC or GGframes or Srendarr's buff tracker, many players would have quit a long time ago because of the UI.
Game breaking for you. That's not game breaking. Because you cannot function without it doesn't make it non-functional. Now don't get me wrong, the UI stinks and the Q wheel is so terrible I don't even use it. It always stays on the health potion. But I just don't feel that ZoS devoting resources to this is as important as other things. Yet. Fix up a few of the more important issues like button responsiveness and good end game content (both solo and group).
It is for many players and the guys working on UI are not the same that are working on game systems so resource excuse is bs. Once again, in any poll made about the UI majority has always been PRO change.
And we all know that forum polls are the height of good statistical measurements.
You've made your case. You've been making it for months. Stop treating your opinion as objective truth.
He's just selfish, doesn't care about the UI since it works for him, so doesn't care that other people suffer because of it.
Typical solo player mindset.1 -
Tabbycat✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭1. I don't want all those numbers and name-tags floating around. It ruins my immersion.
~ You could turn them off.
2. If UI elements have a toggle switch, I'll feel like I can't remain as competitive as others if I don't use them.
~If you are a solo player, why do you need to be competitive? Who are you competing against? Other solo players?
~If you play in groups, wouldn't you want to play your best to help your team?
3. I don't like them so I don't want them in the game.
~Isn't that rather selfish? If you can turn them off, why do you care if others want to turn them on? A lot of people wanted speech bubbles, and now we have them. I can turn them off.
4. It will take up too much of the developers time and resources.
~During early beta (or what some might even refer to as alpha) there were a lot more UI elements in the game, such as scrolling combat text and mini maps. The developers later removed these items when they decided to let the community create addons for them.
~If it brings back players who stopped playing because of the limited UI, isn't that a good thing? Wouldn't that bring in more revenue for ZOS to create more awesome content for us and perhaps even hire more people?
5-a. I'm mostly a solo players. I'll feel like I have to use addons in order to be accepted into groups to do group content.
~Turn them off when doing solo content. Turn them on when doing group content.
5-b. But I don't want to have to use them at all. I don't care if it might make me a better player. I don't like using them and I don't want to be forced to.
~Don't you think it's important to help your team accomplish its mission? If using UI elements gave more information and provided more support, wouldn't you want to use them if it meant that your team could progress through group content a little bit easier?
Edited by Tabbycat on October 21, 2014 12:42PMFounder and Co-GM of The Psijic Order Guild (NA)
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Zorrashi✭✭✭✭✭I see ragers 8)eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »
It doesn't matter what the argument is, you will always agree with ZOS right?nerevarine1138 wrote: »It is. Now that I'm use to it and rely on it to play, I=if I didn't have buff trackers or the ability to modify the look of my Health Stamina Magicka bars, it would be gamebreaking. If I didn't have a minimap it would be gamebreaking. The Q wheel itself IS gamebreaking. WIthout FTC or GGframes or Srendarr's buff tracker, many players would have quit a long time ago because of the UI.
Game breaking for you. That's not game breaking. Because you cannot function without it doesn't make it non-functional. Now don't get me wrong, the UI stinks and the Q wheel is so terrible I don't even use it. It always stays on the health potion. But I just don't feel that ZoS devoting resources to this is as important as other things. Yet. Fix up a few of the more important issues like button responsiveness and good end game content (both solo and group).
It is for many players and the guys working on UI are not the same that are working on game systems so resource excuse is bs. Once again, in any poll made about the UI majority has always been PRO change.
And we all know that forum polls are the height of good statistical measurements.
You've made your case. You've been making it for months. Stop treating your opinion as objective truth.
He's just selfish, doesn't care about the UI since it works for him, so doesn't care that other people suffer because of it.
Typical solo player mindset.
If you can call him selfish, can you call you yourself selfish? Is it not you, who advocates for more UI--even at the expense of others who have already voiced their blatant displeasure at the thought--who can be considered just as "selfish" as the guy who wants to keep the UI minimal? Do they not 'suffer' as well?
But that's a typical MMO player mindset right?
Everyone wants things. Everyone wants things that can conflict with another person's viewpoint/play style. It is quite indignant if you go around proclaiming things like "selfishness" so carelessly.
It is quite obvious that you feel you are not informed enough on the stats/status effects/damage output of your character. Understandable enough, some people have concrete facts in front of them rather than going off a hunch. To each his own. Add-ons are already available as a remedy. But you say that with every update the code has to be brought up to date with the current setup.
Is it not possible to leave you content with a better API info transaction between the game and add-on developers?
The real issue at hand is the idea of making the UI enhancements a standard in the game.0 -
TehMagnus✭✭✭✭✭
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If you can call him selfish, can you call you yourself selfish? Is it not you, who advocates for more UI--even at the expense of others who have already voiced their blatant displeasure at the thought--who can be considered just as "selfish" as the guy who wants to keep the UI minimal? Do they not 'suffer' as well?
Because more UI has no influence what so ever on the playstyle or the experience of solo players since they should have the option to disable anything they want. So yeah: selfish.
Well this is an MMOG soooBut that's a typical MMO player mindset right?
Is it not possible to leave you content with a better API info transaction between the game and add-on developers?
It is, but ZOS would have to unblock some functionalities (most important one being the target and self buff/debuff information) that where available in Beta.The real issue at hand is the idea of making the UI enhancements a standard in the game.
It really isn't, there are many examples of games where you have total control of your UI and what you see and can't see. This allows you fro TRUE total immersion for those who like that but also more information for those who want it.
The real issue here is that ZOS doesn't want to implement the addons by themselves because it costs money they rather put in their pockets and they don't want to release the API functions because of some people in management who clearly shouldn't be making MMORPGs.Edited by TehMagnus on October 21, 2014 2:13PM2 -
TehMagnus✭✭✭✭✭
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5-b. But I don't want to have to use them at all. I don't care if it might make me a better player. I don't like using them and I don't want to be forced to.
~Don't you think it's important to help your team accomplish its mission? If using UI elements gave more information and provided more support, wouldn't you want to use them if it meant that your team could progress through group content a little bit easier?
You can also add that people also have the right not to be forced to play with people who don't care about result nor playing good.2 -
Potenza✭✭✭✭✭One of the best constructive criticisms I ever read on these forums. What it boils down to which I agree with is we need more customization features in the UI and more access to more information about our character.1 -
Tandor✭✭✭✭✭
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I just can't wrap my head around the rationale of people speaking out against this. It would effect you in absolutely zero ways.
There is only a finite number of resources at ZOS, they are not Omniscient and Omnipotent. I would rather have those resources working on new content and fixing bugs/balance issues than tweaking/developing a new UI when no one can agree on what it should be.
This.1