"Play as you want" vs Forced Ignorance and Forced immersion.

TehMagnus · October 2014

Dear Zenimax,

One of your main arguments while advertising this game was the notion of "Play as you want". There have been many people in forums asking (rightfully) for buffs on stamina sets since their lack of effectiveness was forcing people to use magicka sets and not play as they want. You have acknowledged this issue and are working on fixing it trying to keep your promise to allow people to, indeed, play as they want.

We currently have a lot of people in the forum and the add-ons community which are requesting desperately for basic add-ons to be implemented and supported in the game as well as more information to be released on the API.

Some of the problems are as follows:

- We are currently unable to know what is going on exactly with our characters, what buffs debuffs affect us (information that was available on the characters sheet in TES games).
- The basic UI cannot be modified from within the game.
- There is no combat log in the game.
- There is no information about how the damage of our skills scale and what they scale on (which leads to many people creating and wearing bad builds because they though some skills depended on Spell damage instead of Weapon Damage.
- People who don't download addons because they don't know how or fear being hacked don't have any means to have more information about the game and what is going on.

Play as you want != Ignorance!

We don't want to play a game where we don't know what's going on, we can't rely on sounds and animations because of the lag and the FPS issues, even if we download addons, not everybody can download them and the API doesn't give all the information we can desire.

Wykkyd's Framework tools have over 1 000 000 downloads.
FTC has around 600 000 downloads.

I suppose I'm not the only one that doesn't like the forced immersion and I'm not the only one who goes through the trouble of looking through addons that sometimes break the game or stop working because the dev ended up quitting the game. Wykkyd has already stated that he has no issue if ZOS copies his addons and supports them. I seem to recall him saying something like: "I could focus into playing and enjoying the game instead of working to fix it's shortcomings".

Please Zenimax:

Fix your UI, make it so it's fully customizable by the players (move the basic elements around to place them as we want), give us the possibility to see numbers or percentages if we so choose to, let us enable or disable a minimap at will, let us save presets of our skill bars (I know you're working on armor presets which is awesome), allow the API to offer, once again, information about buffs/debuffs, nametags (at least for the same alliance), work with popular addon makers to support their addons and make their work easier since without them and the work they do to complete your game, many people would have left.

Immersion is fine most of the time but there are some times we also want to know what's going on with our character and by forcing us to be ignorant, you're not fulfilling your "Play as you want" promise which I'm sure you regret already.

Edit for WOW PTSD people:
We are NOT asking for a recount or tools to spy on your DPS or Armor, we just want to know what's going on with OUR character, what buffs/debuffs affect it, how we affect our allies with buffs or if our DoT has landed on the boss, we want to be able to customize the UI as we want to have it show nothing or on the contrary more things such as numbers. We don't want anything to be imposed on you we just want a better gaming experience to play how we want aka not being ignorant about what's going on.

Aoife32001 · October 2014

I have no problem with players having toggle options like this (I sure wouldn't use it, personally), but I suspect one of the reasons ZoS allowed add-ons for such features is precisely so that they could focus their time and effort on content they viewed as more central to an Elder Scrolls MMO.

Aenra · October 2014

please do not use the word the word immersion in a TES game that separates the races with artificial, arbitrary barriers. Really. Went out the window right there

feel free to contribute in regards to all the rest however

BBSooner · October 2014

I wish 100% of the character info was available in the character sheet. The player should know even the most minute detail about themselves.

On the other hand though, I don't think any information on the other player should be attained, so I hope ZOS stays relatively strict on both the native UI and the API with what the player can tell about other characters.

Nestor · October 2014

magnusnet wrote: »

Wykkyd's Framework tools have over 1 000 000 downloads.
FTC has around 600 000 downloads.

Here is why these add on systems should not be made part of the game. I don't use them. I don't want them forced on me. It's great that others can use them if they want to.

I use a part of FTC, just to give me numbers on my exp bars (and I think there is another add on that might do that by itself). Everything else on that addon is disabled. Never wanted to use Wykkyds Framework. This is not a commentary on these addons, it is just personal preference. I have 3 map add ons and a crafting research add on. And, that's it. The last thing I want is a bunch of numbers and text all over the screen while I play. It makes for an ugly game. My UI is nicely uncluttered, thank you very much.

The game allows addons, just use the ones that give you the UI experience you want, and let the rest of us play with stock UI or the UI we want to play with. ZOS does not need to make the UI anything else than what it is, moddable.

Besides, as soon as you force a UI onto me, then I can no longer play the way that I want to.

TehMagnus · October 2014

THe main purpose with total freedom of UI management is that you can choose to disable everything if you wish, including the element that are currently present and can't be removed except with Wykkyd's immersion addon.

jrgray93 · October 2014

^ I've made a thread before, as well as posting replies in threads like this, trying to explain what optional means (with default to off), and it always ends badly.

It seems like the most vocal crowd is frightened of optional settings, as if they represent some sort of threat to their play style. I don't get it. It's irrational.

Vizier · October 2014

Nestor wrote: »

magnusnet wrote: »

Wykkyd's Framework tools have over 1 000 000 downloads.
FTC has around 600 000 downloads.

Here is why these add on systems should not be made part of the game. I don't use them. I don't want them forced on me. It's great that others can use them if they want to.

I use a part of FTC, just to give me numbers on my exp bars (and I think there is another add on that might do that by itself). Everything else on that addon is disabled. Never wanted to use Wykkyds Framework. This is not a commentary on these addons, it is just personal preference. I have 3 map add ons and a crafting research add on. And, that's it. The last thing I want is a bunch of numbers and text all over the screen while I play. It makes for an ugly game. My UI is nicely uncluttered, thank you very much.

The game allows addons, just use the ones that give you the UI experience you want, and let the rest of us play with stock UI or the UI we want to play with. ZOS does not need to make the UI anything else than what it is, moddable.

Besides, as soon as you force a UI onto me, then I can no longer play the way that I want to.

It is EXACTLY why they should. If that many people are using them it would be smart to add them as supported options. If the options are "toggles" and can be customized normally you can have an uncluttered UI all you want. Your pretty funny though. You don't support their desire for more supported customizable UI but you use what you want. So normal.

The problem with the UI/HUD as is, is the addons need to be continuously updated every time there is a patch because of the changes made to the API. If Some of the most downloaded addons were supported then a great bulk of the player community would be supported every time there is a patch and wouldn't be stuck waiting on a player, that may or may not still be supporting the addon they released. It's real basic customer service.

Perhaps some ask too much in that they want their characters to be utterly open books which gives ZoS no wiggle room to do stealth fixes and updates which I think are important for "blind" testing balance issues. That said, "toggled" UI customization doesn't impact you at all. So don't act like folks are suggesting you would be having UI imposed on your play. You're OK with your minimalist addon selection but would not support those seeking a little more? So typical. Wait until what you use isn't updated anymore and messes up your game. You'll be the one crying loudest over your minimap guaranteed.

*edited for clarity.

Nestor · October 2014

jrgray93 wrote: »

^ I've made a thread before, trying to explain what optional means (with default to off), and it always ends badly.

We already have an UI with all the Options anyone would want. Anyone can make the UI to be exactly what they want it to be. It just requires add ons to make it so.

Elsonso · October 2014

Just a couple of comments...

You have acknowledged this issue and are working on fixing it trying to keep your promise to allow people to, indeed, play as they want.

You go on to repeat a lot about what Eric Wroebel talked about in the Gameplay and Itemization section of the Summit. Not word for word, but in concept. My take is that he is one of those spreadsheet people, or maybe a reformed spreadsheet person. If there is anyone that is on your side, I would imagine that it is this guy.

That said, I doubt that you will get the tactical interface that you want. I think that ZOS is more than happy to leave that stuff to the add on writers. I would hazard a guess to say that they view this as, largely, the proper place for it. It certainly allows them to focus their efforts elsewhere.

You should not need to a tactical interface to play the game, or even compete in the game. To me it is the color of frosting on the cake. You can have different color frosting, but the cake is the same. That is what I want them to achieve. I want people to be able to smoke you in PVP and not even know what their DPS is. That is what I want Zenimax to achieve and that is my definition of success.

allow the API to offer, once again, information about buffs/debuffs

I am in favor of this for a limited set of circumstances. I think that too much information makes it far too easy to be procedural about the whole thing. Even if we want to be, we should not be omniscient, even with our own party members.

If I cast a buff on myself, I want to know what that buff is, what numeric value it has, and how long it lasts. I think that is fair.

If I case a buff or a debuff on anyone else, ally or enemy, I feel that it is within my right to know that my buff is active and for how long, but not necessarily the numeric value of the buff or debuff. I should be able to know what the value is supposed to be, but I should not know what the actual value is after any adjustments are made.

If an ally casts a buff or debuff on anyone but me, ally or enemy, and the game currently displays an animation or particle effect for it, then I feel that I should be able to know that the effect is (by name) on the target but not what the duration or numeric value of the effect is. I should also know who cast it. If there is no visible sign that the buff or debuff is there, I should not know about it.

If an enemy casts a debuff on an ally, and the game currently displays an animation or particle effect for it, then I feel I should be able to know what the effect is (by name) but not the value of the effect or the duration. If there is no visible sign that the debuff is there, I should not know about it.

If someone else, ally or enemy, casts a buff or debuff on me, I think it is fair that I get to know the name of the effect and the value of the effect, but not the duration of the effect.

If an enemy casts a buff on an enemy, and the game has an animation or particle effect for it, I should know the buff by name, but not the duration or value of the buff. If there is no visible sign that the buff is there, I should not know about it.

jrgray93 · October 2014

Nestor wrote: »

jrgray93 wrote: »

^ I've made a thread before, trying to explain what optional means (with default to off), and it always ends badly.

We already have an UI with all the Options anyone would want. Anyone can make the UI to be exactly what they want it to be. It just requires add ons to make it so.

As stated above, addons are an unreliable and sometimes untrustworthy solution. I could play for a year and suddenly an addon I rely heavily upon could be broken and unsupported. That could seriously impact my enjoyment of the game.

I just can't wrap my head around the rationale of people speaking out against this. It would effect you in absolutely zero ways. It wouldn't even detract from development progression in other areas of the game.

Nobody loses, and yet so many people are so adamant about shooting it down.

Nestor · October 2014

jrgray93 wrote: »

I just can't wrap my head around the rationale of people speaking out against this. It would effect you in absolutely zero ways.

There is only a finite number of resources at ZOS, they are not Omniscient and Omnipotent. I would rather have those resources working on new content and fixing bugs/balance issues than tweaking/developing a new UI when no one can agree on what it should be.

You think the number of threads over the pet issues was over the top, just wait until ZOS comes out and says, "Here is the new UI we just developed for the game" Can you imagine the crap storm that would happen if they tried to do this?

The popular UI's will continue to be developed even if the original developers go away from the game. Every UI mod I follow where the developer went away, someone else stepped in to take it over. Sure, some mods have fallen off, but they were duplicates in function over other ones that already existed, or they just sucked.

jrgray93 · October 2014

Nestor wrote: »

jrgray93 wrote: »

I just can't wrap my head around the rationale of people speaking out against this. It would effect you in absolutely zero ways.

There is only a finite number of resources at ZOS, they are not Omniscient and Omnipotent. I would rather have those resources working on new content and fixing bugs/balance issues than tweaking/developing a new UI when no one can agree on what it should be.

You think the number of threads over the pet issues was over the top, just wait until ZOS comes out and says, "Here is the new UI we just developed for the game" Can you imagine the crap storm that would happen if they tried to do this?

The popular UI's will continue to be developed even if the original developers go away from the game. Every UI mod I follow where the developer went away, someone else stepped in to take it over. Sure, some mods have fallen off, but they were duplicates in function over other ones that already existed, or they just sucked.

Well, we can argue over whether or not it would effect the development all day, but only ZOS can tell us if it is realistic of their current manpower. Personally, I believe UI elements shouldn't be difficult enough to require significant resources to be devoted to it.

nerevarine1138 · October 2014

Dear player-from-a-few-months-ago,

When ZO said, "Play as you want," I doubt that they anticipated how insanely literal people would be with that statement. Like most sane people, I imagine that they thought everyone would understand that it meant, "Play as you want within the confines of this particular game."

Do you need floating numbers to feel like you're playing an MMO? Great. There are a thousand terrible MMOs out there that will make you jump for joy. And there are even addons (though I would be fine with ZO completely disabling all addon functionality) that do it in this game.

Plenty of people like their games to look like games instead of spreadsheets. Many of us even prefer that. Many Elder Scrolls players have gone to great lengths in the past to remove every single element of the UI in order to have more fun. I guess it sucks that the Elder Scrolls aesthetic won out over the WoW aesthetic, but them's the breaks, tiger.

This is a dead horse. Stop beating it. Please.

Love,
Everyone Else

reften · October 2014

Play as you want if you don't care about trials or being competitive in PvP.

GnatB · October 2014

lordrichter wrote: »

If an ally casts a buff or debuff on anyone but me, ally or enemy, and the game currently displays an animation or particle effect for it, then I feel that I should be able to know that the effect is (by name) on the target but not what the duration or numeric value of the effect is. I should also know who cast it. If there is no visible sign that the buff or debuff is there, I should not know about it.

If an enemy casts a debuff on an ally, and the game currently displays an animation or particle effect for it, then I feel I should be able to know what the effect is (by name) but not the value of the effect or the duration. If there is no visible sign that the debuff is there, I should not know about it.

If someone else, ally or enemy, casts a buff or debuff on me, I think it is fair that I get to know the name of the effect and the value of the effect, but not the duration of the effect.

I have to partially disagree. Anything that can be communicated from ally to ally via chat/teamspeak/whatever like this should (optionally) simply be conveyed in-game.

So, optionally, any buffs/debuffs an ally casts should be known to all their allies, including duration/etc. Any buff/debuff on an ally should be known automatically, though, I'll agree, perhaps not the duration of debuffs. Buffs cast on enemy by enemy? Yeah, that you should only know about at all if there's a visible effect.

bedlom · October 2014

Elder scrolls has always been about immersion and rightly so, there's a reason skyrim was called the developers choice.

Honestly if immersion ain't you're thing then please go play something else and stop trying to bring ESO down to standards of WOW, EQ2, swtor etc ( there all the same)
ESO is already way beyond the quality of any other mmo, they need to build on that not break it down.

Immersion should always come first in elder scrolls not your constant pvp imbalance issues... yawn! Same ***, different game.

Nox_Aeterna · October 2014

I agree , some ADDONs are must have to me , i actually wouldnt even play this game anymore without them at this point.

While i agree that the reason ADDONs are there is to minimize how the devs have to work on stuff like this (not that the devs here even work much anyway so they have plenty of spare time) , basic features are still the devs responsibility , even more when they break said ADDONs each patch.

GaldorP · October 2014

I agree. I find PvP unplayable without addons like FTC.

Without addons:
- I can't see how much damage I do or for how much I heal someone.
- I can't see if I hit anything with a siege weapon.
- I wouldn't know which siege weapon does how much damage versus keep walls and players.
- I have a hard time trying to guess when effects on my own character like the healing effect from Replenishing Barrier or the increased weapon damage effect from Igneous Weapons end.

In the skill descriptions, I still can't see:
- If a skill uses weapon damage or spell damage, weapon crit or spell crit, how it scales with magicka or stamina, how much damage it does with certain effects/synergies (for many skills), and many other bits of information are missing.

I have to admit, I still do not fully understand what people actually mean when they talk about "immersion":

- Is it forgetting the world around you when you play the game? In that case Tetris offers great immersion and UI elements certainly don't break it.

- Is it creating the illusion of a consistent virtual world? In that case graphics aren't that important and UI elements don't break it (think of games like Planescape Torment that relied a lot on text and created a very believable illusion of a virtual world).

- Is it first person immersion - you get the impression like you are really there? In that case Mario Kart or any first person shooter does better than ESO. Again, UI elements don't break this kind of immersion.

- Is it realism? Does ESO want to look so realistic that we think we're watching a real place there, real people and locations? If that's the purpose, then it doesn't work very well (for me at least, ESO doesn't look very "realistic" in that way).

It seems to me, the kind of immersion applied to ESO is more like a dogma that what you see on screen while playing a game from this franchise has to be a pure painting without any elements that could disturb it. How much gameplay should we sacrifice for this ideal I wonder?

Surfinginhawaii · October 2014

Off topic but I think that some of the guys who created these great addons such Wykkyd, Garkin, etc. should be given something by the developers (e.g. free game time, special armor, etc.). I really appreciate the excellent work they do for free, just my one cent worth

superquadockyb14_ESO · October 2014

I understand where you are coming from but personally I play this game because its more un-mmo than other MMOs. The streamlined UI (or lack of) is something I consider more or less apart of the uniqueness of this game. I DO agree that there should be WAAAY more clarification as to what stats do what to what abilities but otherwise I really really do love how the game looks and feels UI wise.

UI clutter is something that I always disliked about MMORPGs. As a non-MMO player I can't stand the huge amount of information that I mostly see as un-engaging. The colors and sparkles on screen is what is engaging to me. Not the floaty text that shows huge numbers.

MercyKilling · October 2014

Zenimax does not...nor should it ever.....

be required to add anything from an add on into it's game.

Furthermore, Zenimax is not responsible for maintaining the game in such a fashion as to ensure every single add on remains compatible with the current version of the game, nor should they ever.

TehMagnus · October 2014

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Dear player-from-a-few-months-ago,

When ZO said, "Play as you want," I doubt that they anticipated how insanely literal people would be with that statement. Like most sane people, I imagine that they thought everyone would understand that it meant, "Play as you want within the confines of this particular game."

Do you need floating numbers to feel like you're playing an MMO? Great. There are a thousand terrible MMOs out there that will make you jump for joy. And there are even addons (though I would be fine with ZO completely disabling all addon functionality) that do it in this game.

Plenty of people like their games to look like games instead of spreadsheets. Many of us even prefer that. Many Elder Scrolls players have gone to great lengths in the past to remove every single element of the UI in order to have more fun. I guess it sucks that the Elder Scrolls aesthetic won out over the WoW aesthetic, but them's the breaks, tiger.

This is a dead horse. Stop beating it. Please.

Love,
Everyone Else

Dear Nerevarine,

Please, for once, stop being ZOS's fanboy and acknowledge that not everybody has a shrine to Zenimax next to their beds. Please, also acknowledge that you're not alone in this world and the hundreds of thousands of people who download addons to just make the UI bearable clearly disagree with you.

At last, and once again, if you like being clueless you'll have the option to not enable the functionality and have your game not looking like a spreadsheet, if you actually read my entire posts you'd even realize that you could even disable more stuff if ZOS makes a customizable UI.

The UI is one of the many reasons many MMO guilds have quit the game and it's one of the reasons people are still quitting it nowadays. Just as you want to play your way, we want to play our way.

You're not funny. Stop being a condescending [snip]. Please.

Love,
Many people who can't stand you anymore.

morvegil · October 2014

What i find laughable about this is game....have you ever played a game where you arent told what the rules are? Its like playing football and not knowing with 5th down is....get it..

Zorrashi · October 2014

My only issue with the AI implementations bit; the mandatory feel of it all.

Already we have guilds that require members to download a certain add-on to be able to participate, and allowing those functions into the game will make it so you have no viable excuse for not using it.

Toggling them off will be the equivalent of intentionally gimping yourself, and because the features are so readily available, people can and will judge your preferences as among the most hazardous play styles and will likely discriminate.

Keeping them restricted to add-ons make even the most commonly used downloaded features actually feel like a choice in use and not an obligation.

jrgray93 · October 2014

Nerevarine's smug superiority / condescending post quota problem is like 80% of why I am losing interest in this game. 10% is because I'm afraid of Grand Warlord Zimmeron. 10% is because of game problems. 20% is because I'm bad at math.

Ragefist · October 2014

Pathethic

WoW will come shorty, go there and juggle UI and spreadsheets to death

I prefer to actually play a game and ESO is just that with immersion as huge bonus

nerevarine1138 · October 2014

jrgray93 wrote: »

Nerevarine's smug superiority / condescending post quota problem is like 80% of why I am losing interest in this game. 10% is because I'm afraid of Grand Warlord Zimmeron. 10% is because of game problems. 20% is because I'm bad at math.

I agree. It's really rough when people don't agree with you and dare to put that down on paper (or not paper, but you know...).

You have an opinion. Great. I disagree with it. Strongly. It is also a horse that has been beaten to death, raised from the dead in unholy necromantic rites, and then beaten back in to the ground from whence it came. Just like the song says, let it go.

jrgray93 · October 2014

Jokes are a foreign concept here?

Come on, buddy.

Elsonso · October 2014

jrgray93 wrote: »

Jokes are a foreign concept here?

Very much so. There is far too much tension on the forums for humor. Too many raw nerves.

SweetRoll · October 2014

DANGER ZONE!