Justice system: Will your main choose outlaw or enforcer or neither?

MikeBob · October 2014

I won't be participating because I don't play PvP.

Audigy wrote: »

MikeBob wrote: »

Audigy wrote: »

(...)

ever been kicked from a dungeon because someone wanted to invite someone from the guild, because your DPS was low or just because you had a different opinion?

This is griefing and it is very common in MMOs.

(...)

It may be common - and it's very definitely obnoxious, rude, and elitist behavior - but it isn't griefing.

From Wikipedia:

"A griefer is a player in a multiplayer video game who deliberately irritates and harasses other players within the game, using aspects of the game in unintended ways. A griefer derives pleasure primarily or exclusively from the act of annoying other users (...)"

I don't see PvE griefing going on in ESO at all.

So if someone uses the kick function to eliminate someone from the group so that his or her whole work is now pointless as he or she cant finish the dungeon anymore its fine?

[snip]

I call your attention to this portion of my response (which I have also emphasized above, so as to make it easier to see) :

"It may be common - and it's very definitely obnoxious, rude, and elitist behavior - but it isn't griefing."

In answer to your question: I did not say (or suggest) that is "fine" - what I said is, kicking someone from a group - for the reasons you originally gave in your example - isn't griefing. And it's not.

Try as you might to stretch that scenario into one that logically fits the definition of griefing (as given in the Wikipedia article - which I believe to be wholly correct and accurate), you cannot.

I won't argue the point with you further. Thanks for sharing your thoughts on the matter though.

Varicite · October 2014

Shove off copper! I will dwell in the seedy underbelly of Tamriel

david271749 wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

david271749 wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

david271749 wrote: »

@Varicite

Varicite wrote: »

Logically, do you let the dregs of society run rampant in your society, or do you weed them out so that everyone else can live peacefully?

That's a good question for the guild leaders (not me) who have logged in to see a single player has wiped their bank and received no help getting those items back or punishing the player who took those items.

Varicite wrote: »

Or should we just be like: "Well, you're a criminal and murderer who ruins the lives of our innocent citizens and destroys their livelihoods, but I see you come from Daggerfall... so it's all good!"

Never said we should "just be like" that.

Varicite wrote: »

I'm not sure what logic you're following, but my logic tells me that criminals should be punished.

I'm pretty sure that the Nords I made in Skyrim weren't cut any slack when murdering people in town just for being from Skyrim originally.

Great point! I'm pretty sure there weren't any enemy redguards or bosmers running the same quests as you, but in a parallel universe only to later meet at a designated area where your universes conveniently intersected for combat.

Yeah, there is absolutely nothing in your post that has anything to do w/ the topic at hand...

Maybe I'm missing it. *checks again*

Nope, not a thing about the Justice system in there at all.

You seem to be upset about guild banks or phasing or something, I'm not really sure what exactly. Maybe you should make your own thread about that stuff?

I use your own argument against you, and all you can do is pretend to ignore my original point, and ask me to go to another thread to prevent you from further embarrassment? Fair enough.

Do you always make a habit of making up random arguments and then debating against them? Seems a bit silly, if you ask me.

All that I said was that I don't feel that players attacking one another in the cities is something that I'd justifiably call griefing, as I don't feel those players are purposely doing anything to harass you personally. They just happen to be in the same city that you are.

Your retort was a mix of complaints about guild bank issues, zone phasing, and what seems like a general complaint about having others in the game at all. I'm not sure what part of any of that you feel is a reply to anything that I said.

I definitely have no idea what part of your post you feel is using my argument against me, as none of it seems to be even remotely relevant to what we were discussing.

Guees you're easy to forget and you're confusing me with someone else who disagrees with you. I'm not going to recap an argument for someone who has no clue what's going. All you have to do is look at quotes and go back a page. Nice effort though.

I'm not forgetting anything, I replied directly to what you said about open world PvP against your own faction, but not against others.

That didn't have anything to do w/ guild banks, and as I said, your problem w/ phasing doesn't really have much to do w/ the Justice system itself. If you want to see the players of the other factions while in their lands, that's a completely different topic related to your frustration w/ the way the other factions' phasing is handled.

One you should maybe make a thread on by itself, so as not to confuse the issue at hand w/ the Justice system itself.

Sablemane · October 2014

Die criminal scum! I will be one of Tamriel's noble enforcers.

Anyone against this system is, quite frankly, a stick-in-the-mud. So far all of these arguments against it fall flat. The dye system obstructionists were of that same mentality. The sky didn't fall down. The griefing was handled, we all moved along.

Where is this sacred tavern in which folks claim to congregate? I have not seen any RP groups in any major town in over a month. The only appreciable concentration of people I see these days are the nerds hanging around outside the bank in Rawl'kha showing off their shinies. Sentinel, Riften, Windhelm...Velyn Harbor, really I cannot think of any town in which I foresee a situation that lends itself to a level of disruption that is described and feared.

Most likely, there will be a few hot spots in the higher leveled main towns initially as everything is new. The thieves that become proficient and are interested in the loot will be the ones you never see. Most enforcers will probably shift to the PvE aspects of the system in search of hideouts (in the wild away from your favorite clothing station) and we will all...just...move...along.

Hamfast · October 2014

I won't be participating because I don't play PvP.

I do not do PvP, I don't like it, I don't need to try it again to see if it's changed...

That being said, the justice system really needs to be implemented before anyone can really say what role, if any, they will take up in it.

If there is a PvE component of the JS, I may try it and see how I enjoy it... if it's only PvP, I will not participate... if it turns out to be a system where I can be forced into a PvP situation without choosing to, I will find another game to play.

bosmern_ESO · October 2014

Die criminal scum! I will be one of Tamriel's noble enforcers.

Seems like it would work because between my DK, NB and Temp, My temp will be main.

driosketch · October 2014

I do play PvP but I won't be participating for another reason (comment)

Audigy wrote: »

rotiferuk wrote: »

Kewljag_66_ESO wrote: »

Skulclutter wrote: »

I have absolutely no interest in PVP of any form, so I'm out.

Whats the difference between an AI controlled enemy player and a human controlled enemy player? It shouldn't matter what is controlling it. It is a threat to you eigther way and the design of the game. yes a human opponent is smarter and harder to figure out, but thats the challenge.

NPC's are incapable of griefing. Human players are not. IMHO many people will use the Justice System as a way of griefing. Plus, I doubt they will be satisfied and will want more. There will be mission creep.

People grief in PVE all the time, ever been kicked from a dungeon because someone wanted to invite someone from the guild, because your DPS was low or just because you had a different opinion?

This is griefing and it is very common in MMOs. That whole ... of the poor and innocent PVE player is silly as those people can be the worst in the whole game.

I seldom met someone in PVP who was like that and you also need to understand that someone who kills you does not automatically become a griefer.

Okay, this isn't griefing. As someone else pointed out, it's rude, but it isn't griefing.

I know of two better examples. One is killing quest mobs so other players couldn't complete a quest. This happened early on when players were trying to sell vampire bites. The other is spamming bright AoE abilities while players are using one of the stations. This one happened when they introduced dye stations.

Leeric · October 2014

Shove off copper! I will dwell in the seedy underbelly of Tamriel

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

AssaultLemming wrote: »

Leave a comment to talk about why you made the choice you did.

PVP belongs in PVP_only games, eg. EVE, and nowhere else.

I don't get this comment....their goal is to make it like skyrim or other ES titles. lol PVP only games, man some of the people on here, I hope ZOS doesn't listen to these guys. What popular MMO doesn't have PVP?

Anywho, Ill probably be both. Depending on how each goes will be my final decision. However, I'm leaning towards being a criminal, as it fits my character best.

nerevarine1138 · October 2014

Shove off copper! I will dwell in the seedy underbelly of Tamriel

I can't wait for this. I've been dying to be a criminal since day one.

AssaultLemming · October 2014

Shove off copper! I will dwell in the seedy underbelly of Tamriel

Amazing that the poll has kept so even, I was sure we would see an abundance of outlaws, this is quite encouraging!

Try and stay on topic though peeps

Also I see a few people wanted a both option, however I deliberately didn't put one as I assumed they would be mutually exclusive like vamp and werewolves. The people who put both can select which one they will try out first...

Sou1defiler · October 2014

I won't be participating because I don't play PvP.

Open world PvP... Yawn. What, has Cyrodiil lost it's PvP status now? I'll give it 5 days, in fact make that 2 days, before everyone starts whining about being killed every minute on the forums and demanding ZoS "fix" the justice system.

But to be honest I always knew it wouldn't be long before ESO became just another PvP based MMO.

Rather sad really.

pirate3 · October 2014

I won't be participating because I don't play PvP.

I think it's a great feature, but my characters are too low level for me to feel like this is something that I could get into right now. So I won't be participating immediately, but I look forward to it further down the line. Enforcer, when I do.

ArcaneBlue · October 2014

I do play PvP but I won't be participating for another reason (comment)

I do not care for this justice system at all myself.
if people want to participate_ go right ahead.
I'll be just watching all the drama from afar, eating my moon sugar biscuits.

rotiferuk · October 2014

I do play PvP but I won't be participating for another reason (comment)

Audigy wrote: »

Why do you care what others do?

Walk a mile in the other persons shoes. I don't particularly enjoy PvE. However, there are lots of people who do. They probably make up the bulk of players in ESO.

Audigy wrote: »

I don't really understand the reasoning behind your argument. Unless you enable pvp and become a potential target, nobody will be able to touch you.

1) It is NOT open world PvP. There is NO switch to enable it. The Justice System is triggered by stealing.

2)Its about the SIDE EFFECTS CAUSED BY OTHER PEOPLE FIGHTING. Have you actually read my previous posts?

Audigy wrote: »

Whatever they do wont affect you in the slightest. You can read your books, enjoy the scenery or quest just like you

It will if there are large groups of people fighting nearby. Large PvP battles are full of flashes from spells being cast and lots of people running about. This is`OK in Cyrodill, its not so good in towns or buildings.

KhajiitiLizard · October 2014

My Khajiit character, Dar'Zik likes to be in the shadows, but is generally a good person. He likes help others, and only ever stolen to help out those in need (Hollow Moon quest). Could he be an enforcer in AD zones but steal in the other alliance zones? Steal from the Dunmer in Morrowind while setting all the slaves free!

I wonder if there will be enforcer corruption (taking bribes from outlaws, etc)? I wonder if there will be racial profiling? Will guards follow my Khajiit around because it's a stereotype that Khajiit steal?

AreoHotah · October 2014

Shove off copper! I will dwell in the seedy underbelly of Tamriel

Im gonna be the king of thieves.

michaelb14a_ESO2 · October 2014

Shove off copper! I will dwell in the seedy underbelly of Tamriel

rotiferuk wrote: »

It will if there are large groups of people fighting nearby. Large PvP battles are full of flashes from spells being cast and lots of people running about. This is`OK in Cyrodill, its not so good in towns or buildings.

Oh my god! People running around, casting flashy spells! Why do you care? It's clearly not griefing they are just taking part in the system. Seems like your just bitter over the whole damn thing. Get over it, it's happening.

Murmeltier · October 2014

Jacques Berge wrote: »

Ghettobird52 wrote: »

Jacques Berge wrote: »

I CHANGED MY MIND... I'M GONNA BE AN OUTLAW SO I CAN KILL THOSE DOO-DOO HEADS(I'm an adult, not sure what's considered foul language and what's not) IN DAGGERFALL. You all know who I'm talking about. The two who niether shut up about King Casimir nor buy me any ale.... I'M OUT FOR BLOOD!!!!

Gooooooooood! Your hatred flows deep within you let it rise, come to the dark side!

Oh, I've always been on the darkside. Ther only reason I was gonna go enforcer was so I could hunt people. I'm not even sure if I'm gonna steal. I have way more gold than I need(no you can't have any). It's time for Wayrest to have a Jack the Ripper... Man I hope vamps can feed on NPCs in town... Will make things so much easier.

And i hope i can hunt down the Vamps, that would make the Life easier for the Villagers

.

ThisOnePosts · October 2014

I'll be doing both and am very much looking forward to it! This is another good reason to level up alts (so that you can take on one role for one character and the other for another, etc..)!

rotiferuk · October 2014

I do play PvP but I won't be participating for another reason (comment)

michaelb14a_ESO2 wrote: »

Oh my god!

Which deity are you invoking here?

michaelb14a_ESO2 wrote: »

People running around, casting flashy spells!

There is a place for this, it is called Cyrodiil.

michaelb14a_ESO2 wrote: »

Why do you care?

I have already explained in my previous post.

michaelb14a_ESO2 wrote: »

It's clearly not griefing they are just taking part in the system.

I consider it to be griefing.

michaelb14a_ESO2 wrote: »

Seems like your just bitter over the whole damn thing. Get over it, it's happening.

It should be "you're just bitter" as in "you are just bitter ". The word "your" is used to show ownership - as in "your house", "your car" and so on.

Also, I am entitled to post my opinion just as you are entitled to post yours. There is no need to get upset if we disagree with each other

Saet · October 2014

Shove off copper! I will dwell in the seedy underbelly of Tamriel

I'll never understand why some people are so afraid of PVP. Its more of a challenge and exciting. No real penalty to it either.

kevlarto_ESO · October 2014

did not vote I am no sure yet, gota wait and see how well it works..

MikeBob · October 2014

I won't be participating because I don't play PvP.

Saet wrote: »

I'll never understand why some people are so afraid of PVP. Its more of a challenge and exciting. No real penalty to it either.

Speaking for myself: it's not EVEN a fear issue - it's about doing what I find enjoyable.

(I've said it before and I'll say it again) Anytime I feel the need for PvP, I can eyeball the Real Thing, and as much of it as I can possibly stomach, by tuning into any news broadcast, on any channel, any time of the day or night.

Real Life is chock full of PvP - I don't want to log in to any game and pick up where reality leaves off. The idea sickens me.

My game time is reserved for activities that I enjoy - and I don't find the idea of killing others enjoyable - either in the real world or a virtual one.

YMMV

nerevarine1138 · October 2014

Shove off copper! I will dwell in the seedy underbelly of Tamriel

MikeBob wrote: »

Saet wrote: »

I'll never understand why some people are so afraid of PVP. Its more of a challenge and exciting. No real penalty to it either.

Speaking for myself: it's not EVEN a fear issue - it's about doing what I find enjoyable.

(I've said it before and I'll say it again) Anytime I feel the need for PvP, I can eyeball the Real Thing, and as much of it as I can possibly stomach, by tuning into any news broadcast, on any channel, any time of the day or night.

Real Life is chock full of PvP - I don't want to log in to any game and pick up where reality leaves off. The idea sickens me.

My game time is reserved for activities that I enjoy - and I don't find the idea of killing others enjoyable - either in the real world or a virtual one.

YMMV

Of course, you could always be like me and be a good criminal. Don't want to PvP? Don't get caught. Couldn't be simpler.

Forestd16b14_ESO · October 2014

Die criminal scum! I will be one of Tamriel's noble enforcers.

Here's another question. Do we atleast get bad ass armor with bad ass horns???

Aoife32001 · October 2014

Die criminal scum! I will be one of Tamriel's noble enforcers.

Once I am high level, I'll try participating as an enforcer, but I have serious doubts about this system. I won't participate for long if it just consists of either griefing (which you know people will figure out how to do) or large population imbalances between criminals and enforcers (which, this small sample poll aside, I am completely expecting).

Nox_Aeterna · October 2014

I do play PvP but I won't be participating for another reason (comment)

So anyway i got 2 questions about this that maybe the people that spent their time watching what zen had to say may know the answer:

1) Can criminals atk enforcers? They can do this at any point OR only when the enforcers are wearing the tabard?

2) Can criminals also enter the dungeons? Or it becomes PvE only and the enforcers dont need to worry about other players in there?

If you cant get atked by other being an enforcer and the dungeons are against NPCs only , then that might become a PvE option i guess.

MikeBob · October 2014

I won't be participating because I don't play PvP.

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

MikeBob wrote: »

Saet wrote: »

I'll never understand why some people are so afraid of PVP. Its more of a challenge and exciting. No real penalty to it either.

Speaking for myself: it's not EVEN a fear issue - it's about doing what I find enjoyable.

(I've said it before and I'll say it again) Anytime I feel the need for PvP, I can eyeball the Real Thing, and as much of it as I can possibly stomach, by tuning into any news broadcast, on any channel, any time of the day or night.

Real Life is chock full of PvP - I don't want to log in to any game and pick up where reality leaves off. The idea sickens me.

My game time is reserved for activities that I enjoy - and I don't find the idea of killing others enjoyable - either in the real world or a virtual one.

YMMV

Of course, you could always be like me and be a good criminal. Don't want to PvP? Don't get caught. Couldn't be simpler.

I really don't fancy being a criminal. I will not [Intimidate] traveling merchants when I encounter them in ESO (I'm usually sorely in need of a merchant by then too, haha, but that isn't why), because it goes against my grain as an individual - achievement or no.

In Skyrim, most of the achievements I still do not have (and will not ever have) are those related to being lawless. The Dark Brotherhood questline was very difficult for me to complete (as was the Thieves Guild, although to a lessor extent) - because it's really difficult for me to be a deliberate/consistent lawbreaker in any of my gameplay.

I suppose that's because I've always been most comfortable playing characters that are good - to the point of being heroic - going all the way back to my pencil and paper D&D days.

I won't apologize for this, and while I certainly don't expect ZOS (or any game producer) to wrap the development of their story/questlines around my ideal character, I am grateful for content that allows me to (for the most part) opt out of playing a lawless (or evil) character.

Samadhi · October 2014

rotiferuk wrote: »

...
1) It is NOT open world PvP. There is NO switch to enable it. The Justice System is triggered by stealing.
...

Can agree that it is not really open world PvP, as much as true open world PvP would be great in this game.

ZOS has stated they are making efforts to provide means of a player flagging himself or herself as not participating in the system though.

Q: What protections will be in place to prevent the accidental commission of crimes?

A: We want to not have players suffer from collateral damage while running around town and using abilities. You will be able to flag yourself as not participating in the system, and we’re thinking about other ways to make sure the user doesn’t accidentally pickpocket or steal.

Link.

Guess they want people to be able to run around and spam skills in towns and banks, without accidentally attacking NPCs or players.

Accidental participation in PvP appears to be something they are working toward inhibiting without sacrificing immersion. This probably also has something to do with having to equip a tabard to flag for PvP as a guard.

Looking forward to more information about this system as it comes.