DK not OP, come learn something

Soulac · October 2014

Dks can't kill fast? I think you never saw the real Op Dks

600 Uncrit Whip on non vamp or 900 Uncrit against vamp is not rly strong, right?
And you get many strong fire dots too.
Fire resi is useless against Sharpened Trait btw.

The only real Op thing is the rly high defense and offense at the same time.

And maybe you should know.. Bow don't work on Reflect.
Every Rangeskill except the Resto Heavy Attack and a few dots are Projectiles, so u never damage a damn Dk.
(they hold it up all the time if they want without problems.)
So u need to go in Melee range or try to get him out of Stamina + out of Magicka to dmg him, dat balance.

You rly need a specific build only for Dks that's not what I call balance.

Change reflect a bit and buff the other classes. Only nerfs are useless.

Mondo · October 2014

^ This

TehMagnus · October 2014

Soulac wrote: »

Only nerfs are useless.

This.

SoulScream · October 2014

I've played each class now and it seems to me each has their role and strength. The problem is every class and build wants to face tank and dps like an emperor DK.

Muizer · October 2014

I suppose DK must be over-powered, considering it makes my heavy armour-melee build almost viable!

TehMagnus · October 2014

Muizer wrote: »

I suppose DK must be over-powered, considering it makes my heavy armour-melee build almost viable!

So do templars.

david.haypreub18_ESO · October 2014

The Templar morph of Biting Jabs is hardly equivalent to the other classes' execute. It is dependent on criticals, and thus easily negated by impenetrable.

And no, the Templar doesn't have 'good' CC. Certainly, it has nothing close to being as good as Talons.

The Templar ultimates pale in comparison to those of the DK. Which would you prefer to have, Standard and good CC or Nova and bad CC? That's a no-brainer.

And I do find it amusing that the scenario outlined for how a Templar can beat a DK relies on the Templar stealthing (LOL) and getting free attacks from stealth.

Just goes to show how OP DKs really are if this is the best the DKs can come up with!

ExiledKhallisi · October 2014

I can't believe how delusional people are in defending the class they play.

If you can't see that the DK class is e tremely powerful compared to the other 3 classes you are either Hellen Keller, or just another kid defending his precious class. My DK has taken 1v6 and Im not even that good. There are DKs out there like shypher who charge into whole raids by himself and don't die. The ability to heal so well and stack defenses while reflecting is just to much.... 500 heal ticks lava whip, 600+ heals with dragon blood. Scales, bats warm, when someone jumps me 1v1...if its not another DK its a complete joke and I face roll them.

The class is OP stop the denial.

Vizier · October 2014

Koensol wrote: »

"3-b) why its not OP. every class except Templar has a decent CC, its easy to break out of or roll out of and avoidable (don't be right next to a DK, more on this later)"

ROFL! Except you fail to notive that Dark Talons is a root. And roots don't get affected by the cc immunity timer. It's unlike any other cc and can be spammed on players to chain root them.

THIS! Needs to change.

Sleep · October 2014

In my opinion, DK is the most common OP class while each other class could be OP. They should just make blocking directional, disable blocking cast and make shield effects unstackable. That would solve many things.

Leeric · October 2014

I stopped at long time theory crafter. DKs are the most powerful class and the easiest to play to be powerful.
Everyone pretty much agrees on this. They are allowed to tank/dps in both PVE and PVP.
/end thread

Sapphy24 · October 2014

I'm totally in awe of that DK killing all those players. My congrats to him.

eNumbra · October 2014

OP is a funny guy.

Erock25 · October 2014

woodsro wrote: »

Ok, after being away from PVP for months, and then coming back after finding the Dragonknight Reflectiove Scales thread on this, I want to state on record that I stand corrected in what I posted on that thread. I totally had no clue since it had been so long since I PVP at all.

Now right now I don't play ESO anymore, i will however continue to stick around the forums and see how things are going. that being said, Dragonknights are the single most OP class in this game and its not even a debate.

1.Dragonknight Standard - Thios is bar none the best ultimate in the game, and considering its cost is way to spamable. It denies an opponent a large portion of the battlefield and allows the Dragonknight to completely control the engagement on his/her terms with no real counter. (Maybe Negate Magic works on it, I have never tested) Does damage to anyone in it, increases the DK power while in it, and for its cost, its simply the best ultimate in the game period. If Negate Magic works to dispel it, then its the only counter, however Negate costs more Ultimate to use.

Reflective Scales, Talons, and Dragonblood - These abilities make it next to impossible to beat a Dragonknight at a war of attrition unless the Dragonknight player is just horrible. Everyone chooses this classes because other classes will rarely win in a war of attrition against them. The only class that's skills "on paper" have the best chance of countering the Dragonknight is a Templar in Heavy Armor that is very tanky BUT the Templar has no resource management whatsoever and will struggle to maintain his offensive against the DK and in most case will come close, but no dice due to lack of resources to maintain. If the Templar had any kind of resource management, it would probably be the class most played to counter the Dragonknight.

Talons is way to cheap for what it does..the Sorc Encase skill costs way more then Talons does to do the same thing which makes Encase cost prohibitive to spam...Dragonknights can spam cheap Talons until the cows come home.

PVP became boring to me because it was the same nonsense:

Dragonknight:

Shield Charge
Lava Whip
Drop Standard
Pop Talons
Lava Whip again
Repeat

Any projectiles come, They flap the wings (Reflective Scales), they get low on Heath they Hit Dragon Blood...by this point their Ulti is ready again and they drop another Standard and repeat....its pointless.(It is the standard cookie cutter that is very effective, noobish or not, it has a higher success rate then other combos)

This player base should send ZOS a message, every single player make a Dragonknight and go into PVP...perhaps when 100% of their PVP are running Dragonknights, maybe then, just maybe, they will turn their head and look at the real balance problems going on in this game and fix them...

or perhaps they will rename the game "The Elder Dragonknights Online"...who's to say?

Yikes those how to kill DK with a sorc suggestions are very very bad. Steak and curse will never do it alone versus a mediocre DK. Be a vamp? More like be a dead vamp.

Drasn · October 2014

Wing wrote: »

stuff

DK's aren't OP because of a few singular abilities, anyone who truly knows how to theorycraft would realize this. DK's are OP for the same reason Sorc's are OP. It comes down to how the class's base abilities and passives synergize with the rest of the toolbox.

Also to note, you decided to list all the abilities that you think make the DK appear OP, however you didn't list any passives. One passive in general does more to boost the DK than any other passive does for any other class, Battle Roar.

ThisOnePosts · October 2014

As a player who has a VR14 NB/Sorc/DK (close) and I've played Templar to high enough level to get a nice grasp on it and will max it out eventually as time permits, I have to say I agree with the OP.

Green Dragon Blood is not too effective at all unless you are really low on health and who is going to lose all that health just to gain a percentage of it back on purpose? Also, if you are using other abilities as well which you should be in order to fight back, you won't be able to spam it. Pots have a cooldown so it's not as if they can be spammed either.

Timing and execution are everything to a DK and to a NB. Sorcs can spam a bit more freely as can Templars it seems. For example.. I watched a DK one vet level higher than me go into a WB fight solo. He ran in and died using practically the same abilities I had on my bar at the time including the ultimate.

I however, have learned to become very tactical (thanks to months of NB not working properly). I guess he way shrined and disappeared out of there with the boss reset. I ran in solo and killed them. He (or she) made it back over while I was already looting them.

My point is, it's all about the player. You can sneak all the way to bosses of delves on a NB and solo every skyshard in the game thanks to cloak. Sorc you can bolt escape to your hearts content stunning enemies along the way as they eventually lose aggro and you are onto others (with the right gear set up --- thus getting you far into a delve within no time at all).

DKs and Templars have to fight... practically everything. Now I didn't do that on my NB or Sorc but I see it all the time and have seen it since beta! There's nothing wrong with it, they all have their perks, pros, and cons. However there is nothing really OP about any of them at the moment other than exploits that people find (not talking about block casting as that's something everyone can do or choose not to).

My NB and Sorc were able to DPS down enemies much faster. My NB tore bosses apart while my Sorc handled mobs at a great distance. Now neither of them can take the punishment of my DK or Temp thanks to those instant self heals --- so really you can go through the list of all the mechanics of the game and see where each shine and each do not.

I don't quite like a lot of nerfs that have happened nor set changes, etc.. but it is what it is and ultimately right now it feels more balanced than ever.

Grim13 · October 2014

I have indeed learned something... OP's full of it.

Vizier · October 2014

ViciousWayz wrote: »

As a player who has a VR14 NB/Sorc/DK (close) and I've played Templar to high enough level to get a nice grasp on it and will max it out eventually as time permits, I have to say I agree with the OP.

Green Dragon Blood is not too effective at all unless you are really low on health and who is going to lose all that health just to gain a percentage of it back on purpose? Also, if you are using other abilities as well which you should be in order to fight back, you won't be able to spam it. Pots have a cooldown so it's not as if they can be spammed either.

Timing and execution are everything to a DK and to a NB. Sorcs can spam a bit more freely as can Templars it seems. For example.. I watched a DK one vet level higher than me go into a WB fight solo. He ran in and died using practically the same abilities I had on my bar at the time including the ultimate.

I however, have learned to become very tactical (thanks to months of NB not working properly). I guess he way shrined and disappeared out of there with the boss reset. I ran in solo and killed them. He (or she) made it back over while I was already looting them.

My point is, it's all about the player. You can sneak all the way to bosses of delves on a NB and solo every skyshard in the game thanks to cloak. Sorc you can bolt escape to your hearts content stunning enemies along the way as they eventually lose aggro and you are onto others (with the right gear set up --- thus getting you far into a delve within no time at all).

DKs and Templars have to fight... practically everything. Now I didn't do that on my NB or Sorc but I see it all the time and have seen it since beta! There's nothing wrong with it, they all have their perks, pros, and cons. However there is nothing really OP about any of them at the moment other than exploits that people find (not talking about block casting as that's something everyone can do or choose not to).

My NB and Sorc were able to DPS down enemies much faster. My NB tore bosses apart while my Sorc handled mobs at a great distance. Now neither of them can take the punishment of my DK or Temp thanks to those instant self heals --- so really you can go through the list of all the mechanics of the game and see where each shine and each do not.

I don't quite like a lot of nerfs that have happened nor set changes, etc.. but it is what it is and ultimately right now it feels more balanced than ever.

What you have to say isn't compelling. I have to ask. Do you PvP? It doesn't appear you do since your examples are pretty much all PVE and frankly the discussion about DK OPness pretty much revolves around PvP balance.

Green Dragon Blood isn't just about the healing. It also boosts recovery of Health 40% and Stamina 27% for 20 SECONDS. So hitting it at half 1/4 to 1/3 health or even 1/2 health isn't a bad thing. In fact good timing with this skill in a fight is key to keeping your health and stamina up and for those "OH ****" moments.

DK is the Bull in the China Shop in PvE. EZ mode. Didn't have to be very tactical with the DK...just aggressive and relentless. AOE, CC/Root, Damage mitigation, self heal, Ultimate = I win.

On one hand you say it's about the player, then you go on to speak of other class's abilities. What the hell does a NB sneaking through or a Sorc BE a delve end to end have to do with anything related to the topic of DK OPness? The inconvenience of attacking all the mobs in your way? One and Done...ez xp.

There is no class comparable to the DK in it's utility and the way the skills synergize with the class in most situtations it might find itself in. DK imo makes a mediocre player good, a good player great and a great player a demigod on the battlefield.

That said, the DK isn't ALL Powerful. Some "tweaks" as many suggested in this thread will go a long way to bringing class balance to Cyrodiil. I think we'll see it. Just later rather than sooner unfortunately.

shanersimms_ESO · October 2014

Wing wrote: »

2-a) Reflective scales: reason two is the dreaded flappy dragon wings, able to reflect back all projectile spells and arrows for a short duration to the bane of your enemies.

2-b) why its not OP. Sorc is the common fodder for this skill, however some of their best skills bypass this skill completely (one of note is curse) and the scales themselves have an OBVIOUS activation animation, last for a small and predictable amount of time (4 sec) and cost a lot of resources, and cannot be activated preemptively (cannot avoid a stealth snipe stunned burst) another obvious solution? don't shoot em for a few sec.

There are a number of items I strongly disagree with in your post but this one is ludicrous. Let me explain the biggest problem with reflective scales:

Let's use the common example of a destro staff wielding light armor DK, and let's first pit him against a sorc:

So all a DK has to do is use reflective scales and fire off Crushing Shocks/Light Attack weaves and here is the result: great DPS and not only immunity from all projectiles, but those projectiles reflect back on the target for increased damage.

Now, you're right the Sorc has a few non-projectile options, but lets look at those:

1. Curse - Can be cast on the DK but only once every 3.5 seconds and then it explodes for the dmg. If cast again before then, or even if ANOTHER Sorc casts curse on the DK, the first curse gets overwritten. Meaning this ability gives you low-moderate damage far too slow to make much of an impact. Limited viability.

2. Endless Fury - Spammable and not reflectable, but DK's Crushing Shock/Weave dps far outweighs dps from endless fury spam, not viable.

3. Daedric Mines - Effective against the sword and shield DK or any melee really, but Light Armor DK? He's never going to run anywhere close to you to even get hit by Daedric Mines. Not viable.

4. Impulse - Also not reflectable, but same problem as Endless Fury spam, in that the DPS doesn't match that of crushing shock, which DK is using on the sorc. Not viable.

5. Streak - Not reflectable, and before the Streak nerf this would be a viable option to just spam streak when DK throws up reflective scales. Although this would clearly make for crappy and boring PvP and even as a Sorc I welcome the change that occurred to Streak. In the current state however, you can only cast streak once every 4 seconds without destroying your mana pool. Limited viabilty.

6. Other AoE Options - Such as Liquid Lightning, or Boundless Storm. Not reflectable, but laughable damage. Not viable.

7. Non-class and other Final Options - Weapon Heavy attacks from resto staff and lightning staff are also not reflectable, but since the DK is spamming Crushing Shock, this eliminates any possibility of using ANY ability with a cast time for the sorc, including the aforementioned heavy wep attacks from Resto/Lightning staff.

So for these reasons, it makes the fight hopeless for he Sorc fighting a competent DK. Oh, and lets not forget Dragon Blood! For the limited DPS you can work in to the DK such as from Streak, Boundless Storm, Curse, etc., Dragon Blood nullifies any of this damage since DPS from these abilites comes in slowly.

Since this post is getting long, the last example will be against ANY class wanting to use a bow to face the Light Armor Destro Staff DK:

1. Snipe - Reflectable
2. Venom Arrow - Reflectable
3. Magnum Shot - Less DPS output than Crushing Shot.
4. Bombard - Costly and much lower DPS than Crushing Shock.
5. Scorched Earth - yea right...

This literally makes a Light Armor Destro DK far, far, FAR outclass any build that isn't melee.

Reflective Scales is 95% of what is wrong with DK in terms of class balancing.

An honest fix? With Reflective Scales up the DK shouldn't be able to use offensive abilities. Alternatively, using an offensive ability should remove the Reflective Scales buff. This allows the DK to have the abiltiy for escaping, pure defense in groups, or stat management during a 1v1 (i.e. drawing out the fight while health pot does its job, etc.) It makes no sense that a single class can be immune and practically nullify the effects of all ranged playstyles (magic and archery), only be susceptible to melee damage, and still exercise one of the highest single target DPS spams in the game (Crushing Shock/Weaves) and not to mention this ability (Crushing Shock) interrupts and stuns anyone using any ability with a cast time.

Get a clue....

Point is, in the 4 seconds Reflective Scales lasts before it can be simply put up again, the Sorc/Ranged is already on the defensive spamming wards/springs to try and stay alive. The DK takes control of the fight during that first four seconds and continues to hold the upper-hand until the end. This is not balanced PvP. Not fun.

Cysapper · October 2014

ExiledKhallisi wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0h5lfPqNuYo

in this video 1 DK kills multiple people at a time even an emperor.

You do realize sypher is a former emperor. Also, a very skilled player I've see quite a few temps do that as well. If you pay attention in the vid a lot of them just stand in standard also.

KhajiitiLizard · October 2014

Only thing I think is overpowered is impluse (with that morph that reduces health). It was already nerfed but not enough I think.

Brick_XI · October 2014

I'm not so sure why everyone is having such a problem killing a DK. Just using crushing shock from range keep your stamina up and if he charges your just dodge roll away and use crushing shock some more. His stamina will soon be depleted. Use any skills your want to finish him after that. This works great when he drops a standard because he doesn't want to leave it to fight you so use crushing shock from range and WIN.

Erock25 · October 2014

Brick_XI wrote: »

I'm not so sure why everyone is having such a problem killing a DK. Just using crushing shock from range keep your stamina up and if he charges your just dodge roll away and use crushing shock some more. His stamina will soon be depleted. Use any skills your want to finish him after that. This works great when he drops a standard because he doesn't want to leave it to fight you so use crushing shock from range and WIN.

Crushing shock gets reflected so no, that will not work.

tplink3r1 · October 2014

DK tears, cry more.

Sensesfail13 · October 2014

Just give it up @wing the community loves to hate the dragonknight. Great post by the way, makes more sense than the whining I usually see about " A dragonknight killed me in pvp nerf them to oblivion so I can be leet with a junk playstyle"

PBpsy · October 2014

Sensesfail13 wrote: »

Just give it up @wing the community loves to hate the dragonknight. Great post by the way, makes more sense than the whining I usually see about " A dragonknight killed me in pvp nerf them to oblivion so I can be leet with a junk playstyle"

Yes man . If they want to feel l33t with their junk playstyle they should just roll DKs already ffs. The class was designed for that.

ShadoPanauin · October 2014

Ugh, the DK hate bandwagon. Eventually you guys are going to cause DKs to be the release-version templar.

david.haypreub18_ESO · October 2014

shanersimms_ESO wrote: »

2. Endless Fury - Spammable and not reflectable, but DK's Crushing Shock/Weave dps far outweighs dps from endless fury spam, not viable.

It's actually even worse than you suggest: I believe Fury IS reflectable. It doesn't look like a projectile, to be sure, but the game for some reason treats it as one. So there's even one less thing you can do against a DK.

CapuchinSeven · October 2014

Kego wrote: »

CapuchinSeven wrote: »

Crippling Grasp is the skill to use on DKs (coupled with fear if they get close). No CC immunity to the immobilize, huge DOT in a magic build, burns their stamina, builds HUGE amounts of ultimate in a tiny tiny space of time and most importantly... not reflected by scales (s'funny watching them flap their wings over and over again trying to defend against it), your damage comes from the ultimate gain. Honestly man, that skill is never leaving my bar again, the amount of ultimate I can build with it in the space of 5 seconds alone makes it our best, least used, most underrated skill. I would honestly say it's our best skill, no joke.

I know, I use it as well in my Nuker Build but the Snare/Speed transfer effect just feels a bit to weak. Everything else around Crippling Grasp is awesome.

I would even use it in a Stamina DW Build. Just for Ult gain, additional Dot DMG and the Immobilize that buffs the next DW Attack for 15%.

Actually I'd not considered that 15% from the DW attack as well, useful to remember if I jump back to stamina. I do like to use it for the immobilize when moving around an enemy to stop them hitting me, also useful for cloaking away.

ViciousWayz wrote: »

As a player who has a VR14 NB/Sorc/DK (close) and I've played Templar to high enough level to get a nice grasp on it and will max it out eventually as time permits, I have to say I agree with the OP.

Green Dragon Blood is not too effective at all unless you are really low on health and who is going to lose all that health just to gain a percentage of it back on purpose? Also, if you are using other abilities as well which you should be in order to fight back, you won't be able to spam it. Pots have a cooldown so it's not as if they can be spammed either.

Timing and execution are everything to a DK and to a NB. Sorcs can spam a bit more freely as can Templars it seems. For example.. I watched a DK one vet level higher than me go into a WB fight solo. He ran in and died using practically the same abilities I had on my bar at the time including the ultimate.

I however, have learned to become very tactical (thanks to months of NB not working properly). I guess he way shrined and disappeared out of there with the boss reset. I ran in solo and killed them. He (or she) made it back over while I was already looting them.

My point is, it's all about the player. You can sneak all the way to bosses of delves on a NB and solo every skyshard in the game thanks to cloak. Sorc you can bolt escape to your hearts content stunning enemies along the way as they eventually lose aggro and you are onto others (with the right gear set up --- thus getting you far into a delve within no time at all).

DKs and Templars have to fight... practically everything. Now I didn't do that on my NB or Sorc but I see it all the time and have seen it since beta! There's nothing wrong with it, they all have their perks, pros, and cons. However there is nothing really OP about any of them at the moment other than exploits that people find (not talking about block casting as that's something everyone can do or choose not to).

My NB and Sorc were able to DPS down enemies much faster. My NB tore bosses apart while my Sorc handled mobs at a great distance. Now neither of them can take the punishment of my DK or Temp thanks to those instant self heals --- so really you can go through the list of all the mechanics of the game and see where each shine and each do not.

I don't quite like a lot of nerfs that have happened nor set changes, etc.. but it is what it is and ultimately right now it feels more balanced than ever.

You're talking about PVE not PVP. Also, "as a Nightblade you can avoid all the content" is not a good argument.

Warraxx · October 2014

Please keep in mind you are talking about Magika DKs and not Stamina DKs. I have one of each, there is a difference.