DK not OP, come learn something

Wing · October 2014

Hiya, long time forum lurker first post because I am just tired of these posts. I am a long time theory crafter, game player (of just about any genre and system) and forum lurker. I love coming to forums and learning new things. that said to the topic at hand.

Dragonknights, why they are not OP and why people think they are

ESO works on a circular balance system with its four classes, the idea being that something can be very strong in its particular field and feel powerful but that there is something that can shut that down, and something to shut that down, and something to shut that down, etc. the few skills your allowed to have on your bar at a time enforce this, and anyone that plays LOL would be familiar with this concept even if they don't realize it.

now to why people think they are OP.

1-a) A Class based heal: reason number one is dragon blood, only one other class (Templar) has an instant heal that is simply one and done, Sorc is a channel, and NB is a dot, for obvious reasons these (while good) are not *as* good as a press a button and get healed.

1-b) why dragon blood is not OP. for it to be maximum effective you have to let yourself get low on health, the lower you are, the more efficient of a heal it becomes, however the lower you are the more susceptible you are to death for obvious reason from executes (of which the DK has none, all other classes have a skill the gets more effective based on enemy health missing) and other spike damage skills.

2-a) Reflective scales: reason two is the dreaded flappy dragon wings, able to reflect back all projectile spells and arrows for a short duration to the bane of your enemies.

2-b) why its not OP. Sorc is the common fodder for this skill, however some of their best skills bypass this skill completely (one of note is curse) and the scales themselves have an OBVIOUS activation animation, last for a small and predictable amount of time (4 sec) and cost a lot of resources, and cannot be activated preemptively (cannot avoid a stealth snipe stunned burst) another obvious solution? don't shoot em for a few sec.

3-a) Burning talons: a mass point blank aoe that immobilizes and does a bit of damage.

3-b) why its not OP. every class except Templar has a decent CC, its easy to break out of or roll out of and avoidable (don't be right next to a DK, more on this later)

4-a) Lava Whip: bread and butter damage ability with a good morph.

4-b) why its not OP: it requires constant casting of other abilities to take advantage of said morph and is only noticeable because its the DK's ONLY instant damage ability (every other class has one or more) that does not rely on a DoT for its damage, obviously DK's are going to use it.

______________________

If anyone would like me to clarify other skills, how they work, why they are used, and how to counter them please let me know.
______________________

in relation to other classes these are why the DK is considered "OP". . .ready?
Its easy to do okay with, there it is, the heal has an obvious time of when to use (when your low) the talons are easy to use like impulse, and its easy enough to invasion/stampede and start using talons/lava whip on something. most people don't want to think about their skills very much, they just want to do.

that said here is why DK is "tanky"

Sorcs and NB have thoughtful skills and pretty high burst not reliant on dots to achieve. as well as the only classes to have escape mechanisms and clear mobility advantages over DK and Temp (the "tanky" classes) in the form of Sorcs lightning form morph boundless storm, and bolt escape and its morphs. NB has invisibility, cripple and its morphs, and path of darkness and its morphs. If either of these two classes find themselves in an unfavorable situation. . .they can leave, plain and simple. DK and Temp have to fight or die, there is no retreat.

however for the most part people don't want to think about this stuff on the fly and in combat, and just want to run into each others face mashing keys, this is not the strength of the Sorc or NB and you will probably loose, please don't be surprised.

Templar are in the same boat as DK: fight or die. that is why they have similar skills, an instant heal, lack of mobility, and good tankyness.

TL;DR
im sorry, its probably you, everyone can play the way they want, but your not entitled to win playing the way you want.

david.haypreub18_ESO · October 2014

Please tell me what the Templar execute is.

s7732425ub17_ESO · October 2014

All these words just for the LOLs

ExiledKhallisi · October 2014

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0h5lfPqNuYo

in this video 1 DK kills multiple people at a time even an emperor.

themizario · October 2014

Wing wrote: »

Hiya, long time forum lurker first post because I am just tired of these posts. I am a long time theory crafter, game player (of just about any genre and system) and forum lurker. I love coming to forums and learning new things. that said to the topic at hand.

Dragonknights, why they are not OP and why people think they are

ESO works on a circular balance system with its four classes, the idea being that something can be very strong in its particular field and feel powerful but that there is something that can shut that down, and something to shut that down, and something to shut that down, etc. the few skills your allowed to have on your bar at a time enforce this, and anyone that plays LOL would be familiar with this concept even if they don't realize it.

now to why people think they are OP.

1-a) A Class based heal: reason number one is dragon blood, only one other class (Templar) has an instant heal that is simply one and done, Sorc is a channel, and NB is a dot, for obvious reasons these (while good) are not *as* good as a press a button and get healed.

1-b) why dragon blood is not OP. for it to be maximum effective you have to let yourself get low on health, the lower you are, the more efficient of a heal it becomes, however the lower you are the more susceptible you are to death for obvious reason from executes (of which the DK has none, all other classes have a skill the gets more effective based on enemy health missing) and other spike damage skills.

2-a) Reflective scales: reason two is the dreaded flappy dragon wings, able to reflect back all projectile spells and arrows for a short duration to the bane of your enemies.

2-b) why its not OP. Sorc is the common fodder for this skill, however some of their best skills bypass this skill completely (one of note is curse) and the scales themselves have an OBVIOUS activation animation, last for a small and predictable amount of time (4 sec) and cost a lot of resources, and cannot be activated preemptively (cannot avoid a stealth snipe stunned burst) another obvious solution? don't shoot em for a few sec.

3-a) Burning talons: a mass point blank aoe that immobilizes and does a bit of damage.

3-b) why its not OP. every class except Templar has a decent CC, its easy to break out of or roll out of and avoidable (don't be right next to a DK, more on this later)

4-a) Lava Whip: bread and butter damage ability with a good morph.

4-b) why its not OP: it requires constant casting of other abilities to take advantage of said morph and is only noticeable because its the DK's ONLY instant damage ability (every other class has one or more) that does not rely on a DoT for its damage, obviously DK's are going to use it.

______________________

If anyone would like me to clarify other skills, how they work, why they are used, and how to counter them please let me know.
______________________

in relation to other classes these are why the DK is considered "OP". . .ready?
Its easy to do okay with, there it is, the heal has an obvious time of when to use (when your low) the talons are easy to use like impulse, and its easy enough to invasion/stampede and start using talons/lava whip on something. most people don't want to think about their skills very much, they just want to do.

that said here is why DK is "tanky"

Sorcs and NB have thoughtful skills and pretty high burst not reliant on dots to achieve. as well as the only classes to have escape mechanisms and clear mobility advantages over DK and Temp (the "tanky" classes) in the form of Sorcs lightning form morph boundless storm, and bolt escape and its morphs. NB has invisibility, cripple and its morphs, and path of darkness and its morphs. If either of these two classes find themselves in an unfavorable situation. . .they can leave, plain and simple. DK and Temp have to fight or die, there is no retreat.

however for the most part people don't want to think about this stuff on the fly and in combat, and just want to run into each others face mashing keys, this is not the strength of the Sorc or NB and you will probably loose, please don't be surprised.

Templar are in the same boat as DK: fight or die. that is why they have similar skills, an instant heal, lack of mobility, and good tankyness.

TL;DR
im sorry, its probably you, everyone can play the way they want, but your not entitled to win playing the way you want.

I would definitely agree with this. DK's must fight. Popping an invisibility pot will get you just far enough to die.

If you're not slowing putting DPS out with Lava Whip along with Dragon Leap for burst you will die.

All the OP skills use magicka, so a DK will base their build on this resource. Stamina abilities from melee weapons are dangerous on your bar as a DK for this reason. See a DK with melee and CC him until he runs out of stamina. Then DPS him, count the reflective scales and dragon blood....especially at range from talons...dead DK.

PBpsy · October 2014

ExiledKhallisi wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0h5lfPqNuYo

in this video 1 DK kills multiple people at a time even an emperor.

Although I agree with the basic point you want to make there is also a degree of skill there. You can see it half way trough the vid when he almost kills 3 DKs and loses because a Templar joins in or something.

My proof that DK are much better than the rest was playing my VR14 DK for the first time in pvp for 2 hours and getting a KDR almost double that of my NB with which I had loads of practice.

ExiledKhallisi · October 2014

PBpsy wrote: »

ExiledKhallisi wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0h5lfPqNuYo

in this video 1 DK kills multiple people at a time even an emperor.

Although I agree with the basic point you want to make there is also a degree of skill there. You can see it half way trough the vid when he almost kills 3 DKs and loses because a Templar joins in or something.

My proof that DK are much better than the rest was playing my VR14 DK for the first time in pvp for 2 hours and getting a KDR almost double that of my NB with which I had loads of practice.

Theres not much skill involved with 2 hot bars comprised of 11 skills in total. It's the class.

Note 1v10+ at one point.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibPB3AhtoHE#t=111

Forestd16b14_ESO · October 2014

Agree. I am a DK and I am the farthest thing from OP. Sure there are some bad DK who abuse broken skill skills like talons and lash and DK standers. But you can not let those bad apples brand us all as OP ganks. Also just a reminder us DK can start threads and go whining to Zeni about how OP sroc, temps, and NB are and don't say they aren't cause like DKs there are some OP players who uses the other classes broken skills like temps burning shield or the fact they insta heal or sorc and the dark exchange or NB shadow clock got ganked so many times from a NB using it and running then stealth sniping me 20 meters away -w- uh that's so annoying and as stated scales don't reflect snipes. SO please stop with all this hate on one class cause each class has OP/broken skills and there are players who will use that and give the rest of the class a bad name.

Like the khajiits in skyrim few bad khajiits now all of skyrim don't allow them in the cities. That's what all this hate is leading to ... the hate of cats .... don't hate the cats.

(last part is for LOLs)

PBpsy · October 2014

ExiledKhallisi wrote: »

PBpsy wrote: »

ExiledKhallisi wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0h5lfPqNuYo

in this video 1 DK kills multiple people at a time even an emperor.

Although I agree with the basic point you want to make there is also a degree of skill there. You can see it half way trough the vid when he almost kills 3 DKs and loses because a Templar joins in or something.

My proof that DK are much better than the rest was playing my VR14 DK for the first time in pvp for 2 hours and getting a KDR almost double that of my NB with which I had loads of practice.

Theres not much skill involved with 2 hot bars comprised of 11 skills in total. It's the class.

Note 1v10+ at one point.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibPB3AhtoHE#t=111

How much skill it takes to play TESO well is debatable but 1DK going against 3DKs and almost winning means that that DK is more skilled than the other 3. There are plenty of bad dks though. Especially in PVE where overall they are the worst after whiny bow NBs.

Wing · October 2014

for a post higher up the Templar execute would be the puncturing strikes morph biting jabs. that gets more lethal as the enemy looses health.

to the 1vX video. a bunch of players fighting a great DK payer in a close quarters environment where they had no room to maneuver and avoid the DK skills. . .yeah that battle was over before it began.

there are also countless videos of NB's making DK's look like morons by stealthing to better reengage and all the DK can do is stand there in the middle of a field waiting with a shield up when that time could be better spent digging his own grave.

people complain about Sorc's bolt escaping away. NB stealth or two shot ganks, Templar Sun shield, and DK sustain. all I see is the niches of the classes working properly.

If the current meta of the game or your play style fits with a Dragonknight then by all means role one, I am sure your going to have more fun playing something you synergize with. Just don't complain when your playing another class's weakness to a Dragonknights strength and you loose, and don't blame it on game balance, it was probably the players fault.

The only really fair comparison to make for a Dragonknight vs any class argument would be Templar, as they both share a similar niche. Tanky no mobility with good built in heals. I would like to see these two kind of be diversified a little instead of sharing a similar role.

Remember if your role a Dragonknight the rule of the Dragonknight: No retreat, no surrender, fight or die.

Koensol · October 2014

"3-b) why its not OP. every class except Templar has a decent CC, its easy to break out of or roll out of and avoidable (don't be right next to a DK, more on this later)"

ROFL! Except you fail to notive that Dark Talons is a root. And roots don't get affected by the cc immunity timer. It's unlike any other cc and can be spammed on players to chain root them.

suycyco · October 2014

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

or NB shadow clock got ganked so many times from a NB using it and running then stealth sniping me 20 meters away -w- uh that's so annoying and as stated scales don't reflect snipes.

Scales Do reflect snipes (and it hurts a lot) the op just stated that if a sniper shoot it in stealth without knowing he is here he won't have scale activated.

For the op when I see your post basically you say, don't be at melee range with a DK and don't shoot it from fare when he have scales activated,it's mainly what I have to reproch to DK too many possibilties to temporize the fight and too few counters.

The fact is for an average player like me, killing a bad NB, sorc or temp is easy, killing a bad DK not so much, and killing a good DK impossible when sometimes with luck or when I am in a good day I can kill a good of any of the others 3 classes.

(sorry for bad english not my mother tongue)

Wing · October 2014

Koensol wrote: »

ROFL! Except you fail to notive that Dark Talons is a root. And roots don't get affected by the cc immunity timer. It's unlike any other cc and can be spammed on players to chain root them.

yes I realize the only way out is to doge role and it can be reapplied. and this is a case of possible over tweaked skill, I don't think the cost needs to skyrocket, the damage be so pitiful its not worth using, or the range and amount of targets get adjusted to make it any worse then it already is.
but changing the type of CC it is to bring it in line with its comparable skills and counters like immovable and the cc break timer would be a good idea.

Jacques Berge · October 2014

DKs have a broader range of more useful skills, that makes them inherently more powerful... Which makes them OP... Why does anyone argue against this? You should not be able to fight and kill 5-6 players at a time. It's so simple, it's stupid Hahahaha.

Kego · October 2014

Wing wrote: »

1-a) A Class based heal: reason number one is dragon blood, only one other class (Templar) has an instant heal that is simply one and done, Sorc is a channel, and NB is a dot, for obvious reasons these (while good) are not *as* good as a press a button and get healed.

Add in, that every second Whip attack heals you for ~500HP as well.

1-b) why dragon blood is not OP. for it to be maximum effective you have to let yourself get low on health, the lower you are, the more efficient of a heal it becomes, however the lower you are the more susceptible you are to death for obvious reason from executes (of which the DK has none, all other classes have a skill the gets more effective based on enemy health missing) and other spike damage skills.

That is nonsense.
The NB HoT from Funnel Health heals in Magicka Specc ~600HP in during 10 seconds. To get the same amount of healing instant a DK has just to heal himself with hitting the 50% mark and is still far away from the 20% Execute mark.

2-a) Reflective scales: reason two is the dreaded flappy dragon wings, able to reflect back all projectile spells and arrows for a short duration to the bane of your enemies.

2-b) why its not OP. Sorc is the common fodder for this skill, however some of their best skills bypass this skill completely (one of note is curse) and the scales themselves have an OBVIOUS activation animation, last for a small and predictable amount of time (4 sec) and cost a lot of resources, and cannot be activated preemptively (cannot avoid a stealth snipe stunned burst) another obvious solution? don't shoot em for a few sec.

Sorc is not the common fodder for this skill, it is EVERY class that uses Magicka Ranged DMG because close to 90% of all Spells in this game are classified as Projectiles.

3-a) Burning talons: a mass point blank aoe that immobilizes and does a bit of damage.

3-b) why its not OP. every class except Templar has a decent CC, its easy to break out of or roll out of and avoidable (don't be right next to a DK, more on this later)

You forgot NB as well. Fear only hits two targets and in an extremly close range. DKs and Sorcs are the only ones with AOE CC that hits 6 targets in larger scale.

4-a) Lava Whip: bread and butter damage ability with a good morph.

4-b) why its not OP: it requires constant casting of other abilities to take advantage of said morph and is only noticeable because its the DK's ONLY instant damage ability (every other class has one or more) that does not rely on a DoT for its damage, obviously DK's are going to use it.

Problem: Thanks to Talons and Charge, you can always gain profit from it's heal every second hit. Makes it to an anytime attack that heals for 600HP every second attack. That currently is quite OP.

NB has invisibility, cripple and its morphs, and path of darkness and its morphs. If either of these two classes find themselves in an unfavorable situation. . .they can leave, plain and simple. DK and Temp have to fight or die, there is no retreat.

Invis = broken
Cripple = DoT Dmg, the Snare is laughable low
Path of Darkness = Crap (low DMG, low Heal. The 50% speed is it not woth to slot and waste 1 of 5 slots)

Templar are in the same boat as DK: fight or die. that is why they have similar skills, an instant heal, lack of mobility, and good tankyness.

hm? you have a strong CC with talons to build up range. You could even slot Webs for the 50% Snare at 28y range, and gone from the battle you are.

Darthryan · October 2014

Is this guy serious? I have a dk also and its so op that its boring to play. Mash buttons win. Hold block mash buttons win. Either u posted this to get all those lols or u are one of the worst dks ever. I litterally can run into a zerg of ten and defeat most if not all of them. 5 nbs sorcs and temps.... I faceroll over them and come out with %100 health. My nb is another story. I do fine against everyone except dks. 1v1 vs dk I just run... if my dark cloak decideds to work that day. I just don't know why u think they're not op. Its such a funny statement that I really hope that you're just trolling.

TehMagnus · October 2014

Haha just as predicted, create a tutorial, explain people how to beat DKs, they'll keep QQing. Just as you don't attack a templar with blazing shield, you don't shoot projectiles at a DK with reflective scales. It is possible to avoid getting rooted by talons without having to rolldodge more than once. As OP said, stamina is the weakness, get the shield down with stamina attacks and you have a dead DK.

AH but you're using only magicka? Sorry for you

.

There are OP builds for every class, instead of QQing about DKs being OP, look up your own classes best builds and go have fun in PVP.

By the way, if you BLOCK when a DK does invasion, you won't fall down and he won't recover HP from lava whip.

Zoar · October 2014

Wing wrote: »

Dragonknights, why they are not OP and why people think they are

LOL

The best tank can be the best dps. Only in ESO. People think DKs are OP because it is simple math. Count how many dk is in Cyrodiil and how many other clases. This is sufficient proof . DKs are OP in PVE and PVP, a thousand words will not change that.

Sleep · October 2014

You're like telling people DKs are indeed OP.

CapuchinSeven · October 2014

Kego wrote: »

Cripple = DoT Dmg, the Snare is laughable low

Crippling Grasp is the skill to use on DKs (coupled with fear if they get close). No CC immunity to the immobilize, huge DOT in a magic build, burns their stamina, builds HUGE amounts of ultimate in a tiny tiny space of time and most importantly... not reflected by scales (s'funny watching them flap their wings over and over again trying to defend against it), your damage comes from the ultimate gain. Honestly man, that skill is never leaving my bar again, the amount of ultimate I can build with it in the space of 5 seconds alone makes it our best, least used, most underrated skill. I would honestly say it's our best skill, no joke.

I was dismissive of the fix to cloak stopping our own DOTs breaking it, but it's been invaluable to me.

That said, it doesn't change the rest of your points. DK's have large damage with huge survivability while they stomp around the map fighting 1 v 10 shouting "derp derp teh gam is not balanced for 1 v 1 derpy derpy get used to it and l2p lolololol heal heal heal".

Every single other class has to slot to a totally different build to deal with a single DK while DK's bound around the map with a single weapon bar with the same 5 skills on it for every situation they could come across fighting 1 v 6 fights.

Lionxoft · October 2014

There are a few problems with this post.

It doesn't mention Dragonknight Standard.
It doesn't mention Battle Roar.
It doesn't mention the synergy between DK instant cast abilities.
It doesn't mention the passives that compliment the class extremely well.
You expect that NB cloak will work when cast.

Mendoze · October 2014

I liked the idea what OP had, and I assumed he was going to explain how to counter DK, but instead he totally failed to explain why DK is not OP. For example:

- Reflective Scales is not OP, because it has animation? But there's easy counter, just don't attack....WTF?
- GDB is not OP, because it heals more the lower your health is. Good to know, it must be total garbage then, if it only heals more when you need it the most. Btw, you forgot to mention that it also increases health and stamina regen.
- Talons is not OP because it's the best root available in the game and other classes have decent ones? I don't even know what to say for this...nicely spinned I suppose?
- Lava Whip is not OP because it's your only instant cast DPS, so it should be better than what other classes have? Excellent reasoning there again.
- And sorcerers and NBs don't realize that they have high burst damage and fail to remember how weak DKs mentioned skills really are. Instead they just spam keys and constantly fail to use all the great counters against those weak DK skills? Awwwww....I don't even know what say anymore. L2P issue for us I suppose?

Seriously, nice try but no dice.

Tavore1138 · October 2014

Reflective Scale also blocks flying blades and strife morphs, which would otherwise offer NBs a ranged option against most classes. That interaction also blocks one of they few NB heal options.

pmn100b16_ESO · October 2014

LOL, you've basically described everything that IS op with DKs. And saying other classes have comparable OP skills and can counter all if them is laughable.

Tankqull · October 2014

david.haypreub18_ESO wrote: »

Please tell me what the Templar execute is.

and when you´re at it plz tell me as well wich is the non dot instant dmg ability of templars (as a small hint its not jab as it is channeld denying blocking while it is channeld)

GwaynLoki · October 2014

CapuchinSeven wrote: »

Kego wrote: »

Cripple = DoT Dmg, the Snare is laughable low

Crippling Grasp is the skill to use on DKs (coupled with fear if they get close). No CC immunity to the immobilize, huge DOT in a magic build, burns their stamina, builds HUGE amounts of ultimate in a tiny tiny space of time and most importantly... not reflected by scales (s'funny watching them flap their wings over and over again trying to defend against it), your damage comes from the ultimate gain. Honestly man, that skill is never leaving my bar again, the amount of ultimate I can build with it in the space of 5 seconds alone makes it our best, least used, most underrated skill. I would honestly say it's our best skill, no joke.

I was dismissive of the fix to cloak stopping our own DOTs breaking it, but it's been invaluable to me.

That said, it doesn't change the rest of your points. DK's have large damage with huge survivability while they stomp around the map fighting 1 v 10 shouting "derp derp teh gam is not balanced for 1 v 1 derpy derpy get used to it and l2p lolololol heal heal heal".

Every single other class has to slot to a totally different build to deal with a single DK while DK's bound around the map with a single weapon bar with the same 5 skills on it for every situation they could come across fighting 1 v 6 fights.

OMG Noooo. I am such an idiot. I had this skill on my bar because another NB told me it was good for fights. I had an 8 min fight with a DK afterward and didn't use it because I thought it was getting reflected. 2 bad skills at that time on my bar (testing Siphon Spirit as well). In the end I lost. Crap, crap, crap. I had always assumed it was getting reflected since it looked like a projectile. Oh hell. Thx for the info though. Every day, you learn something new.

Wing · October 2014

I guess I will just make a post dealing with how to kill a common DK instead of explaining things and letting people come up what works for them.

lets go with a common DK build
sword and board and dress
action bar:
1)Invasion
2)Lava whip
3)Burning talons
4)Dragon blood
5)Reflective scales
Ultimate: Standard of doom

here are some class and weapon based ways to deal with it:

NB: Magica based build Ambush into soul harvest into impale if not dead yet.

NB: Crippling Grasp them to death from a distance, as mentioned funny as heck when they don't realize scales does not reflect it. keep your distance with the grasp (mobility upgrade) invis (if its working) or path of darkenss (underrated)

NB: Resto staff Veil of blades build, simply out last them, veil of blades, rapid regen, Crippling Grasp, etc.

NB: Bow and Twin shadows, similar to bow mentioned below but for NB with a class skill added in.

Sorc: Block cast Streak through them whilst applying Velicious Curse (Curse bypasses Scales and DONT cast fragments, it will bounce back and put you on your bum) stack Shields as required.

Sorc: Shield stacking Vampire. . .this is kind of OP though, so only use if angry.

DK: tear a hole in ESO by fighting OP with OP

Templar: Stealth Toppling charge into Biting jabs for damage, should kill them before they get up.

Templar: Stealth Toppling charge into Empowering Sweep into Puncturing Sweep, though this gives you recovery slightly on par, they could recover in time, dragon blood, and stun you during a puncture animation.

Templar: Sun shield spam. save your blue bar for heals and sun shield, and stamina to just keep blocking.

Any class with a bow: Stealthed Lethal Arrow into light attack Venom arrow spam if they manage to survive keep your distance while they have scales up, when it goes down begin venom arrow light attack weave again, if they invasion magnum shot *during* their invasion charge. (note lethal arrow also cuts healing if they survive the burst)
_________________________________________

general tips for fighting DK:

-everything they rely on for damage is fire, if your a vampire no good, even if your not a vampire try to have one gold fire resist rune because of all fire in Cyrodil.
-keep your distance, everything they have is pbaoe or close quarters
-don't fight them in tight spaces like the rooms in keep walls or towers on the bridges, this plays completely into there strengths.
-DK's cannot kill fast, most of there strength comes from surviving into the mid game, build to out spike them, or out last them.
-Standard of might, roll out, if you get chained then there not alone and your probobly screwed anyway.
-know how everyone skills work and not just your own, know what counters what, and know when to just leave a fight that's not in your favor, knowledge is power.
_________________________________________

unknown variables that throw everything above out the window

-potions / food / gear / available to either party
-latency / lag available to either party
-player skill / bad are bad no matter what, and good can do good with anything.
-group vs solo
-etc.

I hope that helps somewhat. -Wing

RinaldoGandolphi · October 2014

Ok, after being away from PVP for months, and then coming back after finding the Dragonknight Reflectiove Scales thread on this, I want to state on record that I stand corrected in what I posted on that thread. I totally had no clue since it had been so long since I PVP at all.

Now right now I don't play ESO anymore, i will however continue to stick around the forums and see how things are going. that being said, Dragonknights are the single most OP class in this game and its not even a debate.

1.Dragonknight Standard - Thios is bar none the best ultimate in the game, and considering its cost is way to spamable. It denies an opponent a large portion of the battlefield and allows the Dragonknight to completely control the engagement on his/her terms with no real counter. (Maybe Negate Magic works on it, I have never tested) Does damage to anyone in it, increases the DK power while in it, and for its cost, its simply the best ultimate in the game period. If Negate Magic works to dispel it, then its the only counter, however Negate costs more Ultimate to use.

Reflective Scales, Talons, and Dragonblood - These abilities make it next to impossible to beat a Dragonknight at a war of attrition unless the Dragonknight player is just horrible. Everyone chooses this classes because other classes will rarely win in a war of attrition against them. The only class that's skills "on paper" have the best chance of countering the Dragonknight is a Templar in Heavy Armor that is very tanky BUT the Templar has no resource management whatsoever and will struggle to maintain his offensive against the DK and in most case will come close, but no dice due to lack of resources to maintain. If the Templar had any kind of resource management, it would probably be the class most played to counter the Dragonknight.

Talons is way to cheap for what it does..the Sorc Encase skill costs way more then Talons does to do the same thing which makes Encase cost prohibitive to spam...Dragonknights can spam cheap Talons until the cows come home.

PVP became boring to me because it was the same nonsense:

Dragonknight:

Shield Charge
Lava Whip
Drop Standard
Pop Talons
Lava Whip again
Repeat

Any projectiles come, They flap the wings (Reflective Scales), they get low on Heath they Hit Dragon Blood...by this point their Ulti is ready again and they drop another Standard and repeat....its pointless.(It is the standard cookie cutter that is very effective, noobish or not, it has a higher success rate then other combos)

This player base should send ZOS a message, every single player make a Dragonknight and go into PVP...perhaps when 100% of their PVP are running Dragonknights, maybe then, just maybe, they will turn their head and look at the real balance problems going on in this game and fix them...

or perhaps they will rename the game "The Elder Dragonknights Online"...who's to say?

Tankqull · October 2014

Wing wrote: »

Templar: Stealth Toppling charge into Biting jabs for damage, should kill them before they get up.

Templar: Stealth Toppling charge into Empowering Sweep into Puncturing Sweep, though this gives you recovery slightly on par, they could recover in time, dragon blood, and stun you during a puncture animation.

these two things do only work vs brainless DK´s running around on their horses, otherwise toppling charge does not do enough dmg to knock them of their horse. and thus you don´t apply any cc on the dk. and on top of that not one jab morph is able to kill a 3.2k+ dk with 2 rounds even 4-6 wont be enough... and thats pretty much time to get a GDB out

the only way for a templar to win against my DK is outlasting me for 5+++++ mins - on the other side i´m only winning on my temp vs a dk if i´m able to make him starve on resources before he depletes mine - wich is in case of stamina a severe problem. as lava whip is having a 8m range eneables him to stay out of my blazing shield radius dealing dmg to me while i´m beeing rooted without the option to fight back without los (staying in my back).

Koensol · October 2014

Wing wrote: »

I guess I will just make a post dealing with how to kill a common DK instead of explaining things and letting people come up what works for them.

lets go with a common DK build
sword and board and dress
action bar:
1)Invasion
2)Lava whip
3)Burning talons
4)Dragon blood
5)Reflective scales
Ultimate: Standard of doom

here are some class and weapon based ways to deal with it:

NB: Magica based build Ambush into soul harvest into impale if not dead yet.

NB: Crippling Grasp them to death from a distance, as mentioned funny as heck when they don't realize scales does not reflect it. keep your distance with the grasp (mobility upgrade) invis (if its working) or path of darkenss (underrated)

NB: Resto staff Veil of blades build, simply out last them, veil of blades, rapid regen, Crippling Grasp, etc.

NB: Bow and Twin shadows, similar to bow mentioned below but for NB with a class skill added in.

Sorc: Block cast Streak through them whilst applying Velicious Curse (Curse bypasses Scales and DONT cast fragments, it will bounce back and put you on your bum) stack Shields as required.

Sorc: Shield stacking Vampire. . .this is kind of OP though, so only use if angry.

DK: tear a hole in ESO by fighting OP with OP

Templar: Stealth Toppling charge into Biting jabs for damage, should kill them before they get up.

Templar: Stealth Toppling charge into Empowering Sweep into Puncturing Sweep, though this gives you recovery slightly on par, they could recover in time, dragon blood, and stun you during a puncture animation.

Templar: Sun shield spam. save your blue bar for heals and sun shield, and stamina to just keep blocking.

Any class with a bow: Stealthed Lethal Arrow into light attack Venom arrow spam if they manage to survive keep your distance while they have scales up, when it goes down begin venom arrow light attack weave again, if they invasion magnum shot *during* their invasion charge. (note lethal arrow also cuts healing if they survive the burst)
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general tips for fighting DK:

-everything they rely on for damage is fire, if your a vampire no good, even if your not a vampire try to have one gold fire resist rune because of all fire in Cyrodil.
-keep your distance, everything they have is pbaoe or close quarters
-don't fight them in tight spaces like the rooms in keep walls or towers on the bridges, this plays completely into there strengths.
-DK's cannot kill fast, most of there strength comes from surviving into the mid game, build to out spike them, or out last them.
-Standard of might, roll out, if you get chained then there not alone and your probobly screwed anyway.
-know how everyone skills work and not just your own, know what counters what, and know when to just leave a fight that's not in your favor, knowledge is power.
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unknown variables that throw everything above out the window

-potions / food / gear / available to either party
-latency / lag available to either party
-player skill / bad are bad no matter what, and good can do good with anything.
-group vs solo
-etc.

I hope that helps somewhat. -Wing

Dear OP, your whole analysis fails based on forgetting one thing. DK's block while spamming their little whip. GL with your NB burst or bow burst against a blocking DK. The most laughable was your pathetic try to create a scenario which a templar could easily kill a DK by using toppling charge (LOL), and then using a blockable ultimate on the DK folowed by a blockable and interruptable dps ability.

Kego · October 2014

CapuchinSeven wrote: »

Crippling Grasp is the skill to use on DKs (coupled with fear if they get close). No CC immunity to the immobilize, huge DOT in a magic build, burns their stamina, builds HUGE amounts of ultimate in a tiny tiny space of time and most importantly... not reflected by scales (s'funny watching them flap their wings over and over again trying to defend against it), your damage comes from the ultimate gain. Honestly man, that skill is never leaving my bar again, the amount of ultimate I can build with it in the space of 5 seconds alone makes it our best, least used, most underrated skill. I would honestly say it's our best skill, no joke.

I know, I use it as well in my Nuker Build but the Snare/Speed transfer effect just feels a bit to weak. Everything else around Crippling Grasp is awesome.

I would even use it in a Stamina DW Build. Just for Ult gain, additional Dot DMG and the Immobilize that buffs the next DW Attack for 15%.