I have a dream... where heavy armour

jelliedsoup
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Will protect you more but slow you down.

And stealth in armour? Riggght.
www.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=Ks8_KGHqmO4
  • NadiusMaximus
    NadiusMaximus
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    I remember when heavy made you almost impervious to magic, but the drawback was that you couldn't use magic well while wearing it. You had a real good level of protection against fire, but lightning would zap your ass.

    Cloth on the other hand gave almost no protection at all but allowed you to cast magic at its full power.. Lightning would just pass through you to the ground, but if hit by fire you would become a Richard Pryor joke, or Michael Jackson for the new kids, you burst into flames.

    Medium, we'll, I don't know never used it.
  • Ninnghizhidda
    Ninnghizhidda
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    Indeed, it is just a dream.

    Armour types and their purpose and functionality in ESO are the most screwed up I have seen in any game, ever, be it single player, MMO, text only, PC one, console one, 1980 one or 2014 one.

    It is like they actually tried hard to create an epic mess. And now, with a little bit here and another little bit there, they are trying to keep the ship afloat, while the ship is already at the bottom of the ocean.

    I have a wild idea too. If they are so incompetent at actually making armour types work, at least with some logic, it would just be better to scrap the whole thing entirely. And keep it pretty basic, like it used to be. E.g., the heavier it is, the more basic protection (armour class / defense) it provides, and the more it encumbers you in the process of moving, casting, fighting and any other action, and also limits your carrying capacity.

    A ton of problems solved.
    Edited by Ninnghizhidda on October 3, 2014 5:17AM
  • KenjiJU
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    A ton of problems solved.

    If your problem was getting rid of heavy armor users.
  • xaraan
    xaraan
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    Eh, not much for the slowing down thing (armor really didn't hamper wearers as much as people think), but it definitely needs work. I just watched our light armor wearing DK tank crypt for us while doing dps nearly as good as the other dps'ers. Being the tank I felt pretty useless after that. Glad that cotton protects him as much as all the steel i have on me.
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  • Ninnghizhidda
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    KenjiJU wrote: »
    If your problem was getting rid of heavy armor users.

    Quite the opposite, it would get rid of lots of "bathrobes", when they would no longer reap the ridiculous benefits and synergies with "broomsticks" (staves) and many magicka skills, and would feel what very light cloth armour bestows: minimal physical protection, but better mobility.

    If you fancy to be able to hop around like a locust, stay afar, and blast your powerful spells, absolutely, but if anything heavy or piercing (e.g. powerful physical attack) comes your way, you should also feel the impact. Just a small example: Immovable (as used by "bathrobes").

    Having armour with "basic" properties, does indeed "forces" people down to Earth. It makes choices meaningful, and those choices have consequences too. It has been demonstrated for many years. It is only ESO that tried to re-invent the wheel, and failed miserably with its alternative plan (somehow square wheels don't seem to go very far).
  • sirston
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    they predicted it in the trailers as weak as it is...
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  • KenjiJU
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    KenjiJU wrote: »
    If your problem was getting rid of heavy armor users.

    Quite the opposite, it would get rid of lots of "bathrobes", when they would no longer reap the ridiculous benefits and synergies with "broomsticks" (staves) and many magicka skills, and would feel what very light cloth armour bestows: minimal physical protection, but better mobility.

    If you fancy to be able to hop around like a locust, stay afar, and blast your powerful spells, absolutely, but if anything heavy or piercing (e.g. powerful physical attack) comes your way, you should also feel the impact. Just a small example: Immovable (as used by "bathrobes").

    Having armour with "basic" properties, does indeed "forces" people down to Earth. It makes choices meaningful, and those choices have consequences too. It has been demonstrated for many years. It is only ESO that tried to re-invent the wheel, and failed miserably with its alternative plan (somehow square wheels don't seem to go very far).

    I guess you didn't go into much detail about the other types earlier, only adding more disadvantages to heavy w/o explaining the weakness light armor would have. (or should have)

    Range always seems to be at advantage in the games I've played. Not to mention casters always getting armor spells.. (to combat their intentially reduced armor? (srsly) Also, how come ranged damage remains the same across point blank to max distance; shouldn't there be diminishing effects? This is all while melee characters have to not only use gap closers, but stay in harm's way. The new stamina/magicka return also gives higher values to the ranged users, and less to melee. Go figure. Not ranting in any particular direction here, it just came out.
    Edited by KenjiJU on October 3, 2014 7:32AM
  • AssaultLemming
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    Change is coming, they said recently that light armor wearers will be more squishy. I think it was linked to the champ system.
  • babylon
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    Change is coming, they said recently that light armor wearers will be more squishy. I think it was linked to the champ system.

    I expect this will be a total mess.
  • Ninnghizhidda
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    Actually, Heavy Armour, has always been associated with being more "beneficial", at least in terms of "raw values". It makes sense, it always did.

    Of course there are disadvantages in using Heavy Armour. First of all, the character would need to be stronger. Almost always the weight of the armour would affect mobility or the ability to perform certain actions.

    Again, it would make sense. A rogue could in theory choose to use a heavy suit of plate. Now, shouldn't the ability of said rogue to sneak around and be "shadowy" suffer from that choice? Obviously. Said rogue would gain extra protection but hinder the ability to perform class / role skills / functions.

    The same story can be told about "mages". And no, the whole thing is NOT against the Elder Scrolls background. The freedom to mix and match and perform many different tasks and roles would always be there.

    Of course you could have "mages" and casters in general, in heavier armour. It would not necessarily mean they would not be good or they would even be "gimped".

    The thing is, to apply benefits and penalties in a structured system that makes sense. Where personal choice is always possible, but, one could never have ALL the benefits from EVERY source, while completely eliminating ALL penalties. This is "fail" and this is exactly what is happening in ESO.

    I would not mind if a "mage" fancies to be in full plate, good stuff. Some skills and synergies though, should either not be possible, or suffer some penalty, when doing so. Or even, perhaps different skills / abilities / combinations would become available. But surely, not what we got now.

    What our dear devs are doing now is like a vicious circle. Cut a little here, add a bit there. Reduce a little bit magicka boni here, add some better returns for stamina there, do a "chop" for Light Armour, add some "beef" to Medium or Heavy, and it goes on and on and on. And it is never enough or good enough. Because the whole system is flawed from the beginning.

    One simply wonders... for decades, many games and designers managed to get things working (not perfect, but surely better than what we have in ESO right now), by adopting "recipes" that made sense and were based on fairly simple, yet solid and logical, facts.

    I could write down a huge list, but there is no point. In short, if I had a "magic wand" I would just scrap the current system with armours in ESO. Of course, there would be an absolutely HUGE uproar by all those who are very content using the few "uber" combinations that do work and are much better that many others. But the way it goes here, forget all about "balance", it won't happen any time soon, simply because the foundations are too weak to build upon.

    In the case of ESO, a "shock therapy" is what it requires, and not tiny doses of painkillers.
  • jelliedsoup
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    xaraan wrote: »
    Eh, not much for the slowing down thing (armor really didn't hamper wearers as much as people think), but it definitely needs work. I just watched our light armor wearing DK tank crypt for us while doing dps nearly as good as the other dps'ers. Being the tank I felt pretty useless after that. Glad that cotton protects him as much as all the steel i have on me.

    In melee weapons combat heavy armour should dominate.

    The issues caused by reducing stealth and movement speed would probably cause ha users to abandon that build.

    I don't think the solution is that simple.

    I think the armour skills need to focus in what they should provide. E.g a light armour tank is made possible by weapon shields, IMO it should provide protection from magicka. As la builds get protection from both it promotes la as a tank build.


    Edited by jelliedsoup on October 3, 2014 8:19PM
    www.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=Ks8_KGHqmO4
  • david.haypreub18_ESO
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    KenjiJU wrote: »
    The new stamina/magicka return also gives higher values to the ranged users, and less to melee. Go figure. Not ranting in any particular direction here, it just came out.

    Yeah, that one was so ridiculous I really just can't comprehend it. They know ranged is better than melee, yet when they try to fix heavy armor they give MORE resource return to ranged than to melee-- like, a LOT more.

    That was just mind-boggling. Do they even play?

    Edited by david.haypreub18_ESO on October 3, 2014 8:31PM
    Templars are 'just slower... by design'
    Yes, Gina actually said that (at least regarding Rushed Ceremony) right here:
    http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/161959/templar-skills-bugged-made-useless-ignored/p24
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  • jelliedsoup
    jelliedsoup
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    KenjiJU wrote: »
    The new stamina/magicka return also gives higher values to the ranged users, and less to melee. Go figure. Not ranting in any particular direction here, it just came out.

    Yeah, that one was so ridiculous I really just can't comprehend it. They know ranged is better than melee, yet when they try to fix heavy armor they give MORE damage to ranged than to melee-- like, a LOT more.

    That was just mind-boggling. Do they even play?

    As a bow user its great for me. I imagine my 1000-2000 heavy attacks *** many people off.
    www.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=Ks8_KGHqmO4
  • wafcatb14_ESO
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    Yep it`s like they really have no clue wtf they are doing when it comes to their game .
  • zbtiqua
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    KenjiJU wrote: »
    The new stamina/magicka return also gives higher values to the ranged users, and less to melee. Go figure. Not ranting in any particular direction here, it just came out.

    Yeah, that one was so ridiculous I really just can't comprehend it. They know ranged is better than melee, yet when they try to fix heavy armor they give MORE resource return to ranged than to melee-- like, a LOT more.

    That was just mind-boggling. Do they even play?

    The justification given for that was that the resource return was based on the time it takes to charge a heavy attack with a given weapon. I haven't actually tested it, but personally I'm not sure that's how it should be.
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  • david.haypreub18_ESO
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    I'm pretty sure charging a one-handed axe swing doesn't take twice the time it takes to charge a destroy staff attack... but correct me if I am wrong!
    Templars are 'just slower... by design'
    Yes, Gina actually said that (at least regarding Rushed Ceremony) right here:
    http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/161959/templar-skills-bugged-made-useless-ignored/p24
    VR 16 Templar (retired until Templars get fixed)
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  • danovic
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    Biggest problem I see with there design of heavy armor in this game is that they forget all heavy plate armor is worn over cloth or leather padded armor. So actually they wearing light or medium armor with plates over it so all the passive really should apply to heavy armor with the exception of a lose of movement after a short time of fighting. It really would drain your stamina fast fighting in it too.
    The stamina drain would require strong stamina builds which would naturally limit magic. Until they fix the class skills to use stamina not magic for the skills that definitely aren't magic on melee classes though heavy armor will never be right.
  • Lionxoft
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    I'd be ok with my HA set if the constitution passive would trigger despite having a damage shield up. The tooltip does indeed say "Hit" and not "Damaged".
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