Guild Trader Bidding system needs work

GTech_1 · September 2014

I am the "Master of Coin" (GM) at Tamriel Traders Reserve.
I have been in charge of maintaining access to a guild trader for TTR since the traders were first introduced.

Issue:
The blind bidding system leads to ridiculously high bids that can not reasonably be earned back by the sales at these traders.

This forces guilds to come up with "creative methods" to earn gold from their own members, such as "buy-in style" raffles where the guild keeps 50% or more of the total "buy-ins", in order to afford a bid.
I have also been told that many guilds directly charge their own members to maintain membership. That is ridiculous.

We do not, and will not, *ever* do this to our members.

This does not foster the cooperative "guildies helping guildies" mentality.
In fact, this kind of push defeats that purpose entirely, and causes guilds to die.

Please change the bidding system to a true "first come first served" system that allows a person with proper permissions to simply camp the location of a trader and buy their services for a flat rate right after maintenance.
The base 100 gold "hire price" would need to be increased, and traders in ideal locations would, of course, also cost much more to hire.

Looking for some quick fixes,
GTech_1 (Greg)

::Edited to reflect my new guild rank.

Slurg · September 2014

While I agree that the current system is problematic, I do not like your solution. People who have day jobs or any kind of real life obligation during the changeover time period could not compete. I suspect we would end up with lots more stores with 30 items total for sale.

I would instead propose a non blind bid system where one could see the high bid. And the ability for a guild to retract their bid and place it on a new trader if the bidding goes too high.

(Edited because life happens).

Nestor · September 2014

Or, set a price, then make it a lottery to get the Trader Kiosk. Once you have had your turn, then you go back in the pool, only at the end of the line in favor of those who have been waiting.

I have seen plenty of empty Kiosks, so I know they are not all getting bid on.

Trespasser · September 2014

Here's an idea that might help: Having bidding that is NOT not blind (you can keep the names anonymous, we just need to know if we've been out-bid) combined with a system where IF you are out-bid for a kiosk you could cancel and bid elsewhere if you like.
I think this would really straighten out a lot of downright painful problems with the current system.

babylon · September 2014

I suggest greatly increasing the number of trader kiosks, and having flat fees depending on area. Increase the numbers till all the guilds can buy a spot.

GnatB · September 2014

1. Your solution is worse than the current system. As stated by others, it just leads to giving no-lifes (or those whose jobs matchup nicely) having an advantage.
2. Not a fan of the blind bid. It should be visible. However, supply/demand will eventually either bring the prices down to "something reasonable", or apparently the current prices *are* reasonable.
3. *kicks dead horese*... I tend to think the whole guild store system/having to be in a guild to sell is also a bad idea, and they should simply implement a global (or at least factionwide) marketplace already.

GTech_1 · September 2014

Either way would be better than the current system imo.

I could also get behind a non-blind bidding system that would allow guilds that were outbid to place their bids elsewhere.

Sitting on one bid per week and just *guessing* if you will win is not good at all.

AlnilamE · September 2014

I actually don't mind the blind bidding system. Of course, everyone who wants a trader in Craglorn or in some of the most favoured towns will bid high and not be able to make it back because they are afraid of losing the spot.

Your proposal would mean that people with jobs would never be able to bid on a trader, and that would not be fair either.

I would suggest the following tactic: Bid what you think is a reasonable amount on the trader of your choice, then camp guild members next to other traders on the map. When the switch happens (or the servers are back from maintenance), if you didn't get your trader, find the first availabe trader for hire.

On a side note, am I the only one who noticed a lot of empty trading carts showing up recently (Stros M'Kai was one spot where this was evident)? I think they are going to add more traders, which I think they should.

GTech_1 · September 2014

AlnilamE wrote: »

I would suggest the following tactic: Bid what you think is a reasonable amount on the trader of your choice, then camp guild members next to other traders on the map. When the switch happens (or the servers are back from maintenance), if you didn't get your trader, find the first availabe trader for hire.

This is exactly what I have already been doing for weeks. It is unsatisfactory, to say the least.

My point: If the bid is already irrelevant under the current system, which it is, eliminate it entirely.
I see no reason what-so-ever to reward guilds that are already loaded down with gold ... With yet more ways to make gold, while also excluding mid - range guilds from ever competing with these ridiculous bids.

curlyqloub14_ESO · September 2014

Blind bidding should definitely go. And the ability to retract a bid is a nice idea too.

Not sure they really need to add more traders though. Instead, I think they should consolidate them to all be located in major cities. Some of the carts are in such odd and random locations, it's no wonder they don't get any action. I remember running across a single trader cart on the side of the road while questing in Coldharbour. It wasn't near any town, and I couldn't help but think - "that cart probably hasn't sold more than one or two items per week, ever."

And who would want a cart on Stros M'Kai? There shouldn't be any carts in newbie zones - newbies don't have the money to buy anything anyway (unless they are alts, in which case, they know how to get to the big cities anyway). And since they now have the option to skip straight to the first big city, there is really no reason to have trader carts in any starter area.

Make the bids viewable to all, consolidate trader carts to the main city in each zone - that's where all crafting, banking and other such commerce happens anyway, so it makes sense.

Gillysan · September 2014

+1 this needs some attention. Doing an in-game feedback linking this thread.

However, your solution is not good, but others have posted some very good ideas. Such as non-blind system, lottery style. Also add failed bids the gold should be returned to the fail guild (that sounds funny but you get the idea).

Traders needed in Eyvea. Well the Mages Guilds island needs some work, did a feedback on it awhile ago and that's another topic. Someone mentioned traders newbie zones so I added this here.

Zorrashi · September 2014

I do not agree with the proposed solution OP. As others have stated, it highly benefits only a certain type of player (no-lifers) and leaves others in the gutter.

As others have mentioned also, a better solution can be found in the flat-rate random lottery approach. Or even non-blind biddings.
I am a fan of the lottery system myself if the blind bidding system absolutely had to go.

xaraan · September 2014

No thanks. First come first serve only reward someone that is off at the time to camp or if multiple people are there, rewards someone with faster net connection just like claiming a keep in cyrodiil. I'll admit the system needs work, maybe make the bidding public instead of blind so you can see what you need to bid. But no, the prime spots should be the most expensive, not just luckily snatched up week to week by randoms.

babylon · September 2014

Making bids visible still rewards the no-lifers, would just need to camp at a kiosk till bidding closed, so this is not a solution.

Maybe both GREATLY INCREASE the number of kiosks (particularly at town areas, not at random spots in the middle of nowhere), and allow the bid to be placed on several kiosks at once, with an order of preference, so losing a bid to one kiosk means that bid gets placed at the next kiosk in your preference list, and so on.

Or just make enough kiosks so all the guilds can get a spot and set flat fees depending on area.

Maybe to get the town spots your guild has to have a certain number of items listed (of a certain value, so you can't just list 1 lockpick at 1 gold over and over to make up the numbers), so we no longer get subjected to all the guilds with like one page of useless stuff hogging spots.

Gillysan · September 2014

Visible bids does not reward the hardcore players (how rude!). It would lead to more sensible bids. If the bidding is spiraling out of control this is good info. Also, what if you are in a small guild and there are 3 big guilds you are bidding against? This would help you decide if this trader is really worth it to you and your guild.

babylon · September 2014

Gillysan wrote: »

Visible bids does not reward the hardcore players (how rude!). It would lead to more sensible bids. If the bidding is spiraling out of control this is good info. Also, what if you are in a small guild and there are 3 big guilds you are bidding against? This would help you decide if this trader is really worth it to you and your guild.

No it would lead to needing to stand by the kiosk at closing bid time and spamming to gain control of that kiosk. As in, no lifer wins.

It would be even worse than it is now.

Divad Zarn · September 2014

Bidding system is great atm, the only thing that need fix is that whole guild can see how much officer/guildmaster bidding, that makes some spyes in guild (especially when guild with 500 members) and such system can't be called "blind" because of that, I see many players want to buy VIP spots for 10k just because they enter game first, if there are guilds who can buy them for 200k, 300k, 400k, 500k etc, that means that they worth it and they cost such money for guild which doing it.

Gillysan · September 2014

babylon wrote: »

Gillysan wrote: »

Visible bids does not reward the hardcore players (how rude!). It would lead to more sensible bids. If the bidding is spiraling out of control this is good info. Also, what if you are in a small guild and there are 3 big guilds you are bidding against? This would help you decide if this trader is really worth it to you and your guild.

No it would lead to needing to stand by the kiosk at closing bid time and spamming to gain control of that kiosk. As in, no lifer wins.

It would be even worse than it is now.

Please re-read what I said. This leads to better decision making on the players part.

In order to directly address your very rude comment regarding people who beat you - I would suggest that ZOS weekly change when bids close to give people in different time zones an opportunity to bid at a reasonable local time.

xaraan · September 2014

Yeah, you are right about the visible bids just changing the camping spot from opening to closing bid time. Of everything I've seen so far, I like the system as is I have to say. The bigger guilds with a lot of money can afford the better spots, the small guilds that don't put as much in can try and get out of the way spots.

To tell the truth, from all I've seen available at many other guild stores, even in some of the ok cities, they really shouldn't be in prime spots b/c they don't have very good stuff. The amount of guilds with really good selection is pretty low.

Giraffon · September 2014

I'm not sure true economics are in play because guilds are willing to spend crazy amounts of gold just to keep their members happy.

Here is my suggestion:

If a guild (not members, but guild) doesn't make a profit over and above what it bid on the trader, then it is not allowed to bid on traders in following week.

True business economics would return--make money or go out of business!

Xehmnus_Rayne · September 2014

I don't see why smaller guilds waste their money on a trader anyways... Unless they got it from just bidding 100g on a free trader cause no one else bid on it.
I've seen a fair amount of guilds that don't even have a full page worth of items on their store and a good number of those items are crap. Just seems like a wasted trader to me.

Then you got the big trading guilds all competing for ideal locations and spending a large sum of gold on the bid for one. Honestly, I don't see too much of an issue here. If nothing else, the bigger guilds COULD get together and communicate and ensure they each get a decent trader so as to not have to go all out with crazy bids but still bidding a decent amount so as to deter the smaller guilds. I'm sorry, but the bigger guilds that have the more potential to sell an abundance of items and make more money should be the ones getting the ideal traders. Just my opinion.

As far as guilds that require their members to make regular donations to help with bids and, as added insurance, stay in the guild... I am not a fan of that either. Don't make it mandatory, but make it a choice. Granted, if you're in a trade guild... the whole purpose is to make money and if you can donate a small amount to help get your guild a trader, it just sounds like a good idea. 3k, for example, isn't all that much. If you aren't making enough in a week to possibly donate that, then do your trade guild a favor and leave.

Sure, the taxes and whatnot that the guild receives from sales might not make up for the gold spent on the bid, but considering that the guild, as a whole, should make FAR more than that in sales... donations shouldn't be much of an issue. Again, just don't make it mandatory. Instead, get creative and figure out some form of motivation. Either a raffle or some form of contest.

DenverRalphy · September 2014

The best method would be to create a new currency that can only be generated by guild store sales. Instead of the guild cut providing regular gold, Guild Store sales should reward 1 guild token for every 1000g received from guild cut taxes. The guild tokens can only be spent on kiosk bids, and the tokens cannot be traded, sold, or acquired in any other way.

This would force guilds to bid based on their sales income. Bid too much, and the guild takes a loss that can't be padded through member donations.

[edit]I mentioned the 1/1000 trade ratio as a mechanic to prevent guild members from just buying/selling items back and forth to their own members for the sole purpose of generating tokens. 1/1000 ratio would result in a significant loss of gold income should anybody try to pad their tokens.

Nestor · September 2014

curlyqloub14_ESO wrote: »

And who would want a cart on Stros M'Kai? There shouldn't be any carts in newbie zones - newbies don't have the money to buy anything anyway

Your forgetting Caldwells Silver and Gold.

Anyway, they could have two tiers of Kiosks, those near Wayshrines (as all the ones in the hinterlands are near a Wayshrine) and those in towns. The out of the way kiosks do benefit the bargain hunter as the prices tend to be lower in the hinterlands, as it should be.

However, I do think the trade kiosks should only be in or near cities.

GTech_1 · September 2014

DenverRalphy wrote: »

The best method would be to create a new currency that can only be generated by guild store sales. Instead of the guild cut providing regular gold, Guild Store sales should reward 1 guild token for every 1000g received from guild cut taxes. The guild tokens can only be spent on kiosk bids, and the tokens cannot be traded, sold, or acquired in any other way.

This would force guilds to bid based on their sales income. Bid too much, and the guild takes a loss that can't be padded through member donations.

[edit]I mentioned the 1/1000 trade ratio as a mechanic to prevent guild members from just buying/selling items back and forth to their own members for the sole purpose of generating tokens. 1/1000 ratio would result in a significant loss of gold income should anybody try to pad their tokens.

This is a *great* idea Denver.
So many issues would be fixed with a change like this.
Imo, the biggest one would be the inability to pad the guild's earnings, and the bids, with player generated gold.

This is good stuff man, good stuff.

ThePonzzz · September 2014

Yeah, @DenverRalphy, that's a great idea. Guild Points that are earned by being an active guild. I'm in a VERY active trading guild, and I don't have my items selling any faster with the Trade Guilders than I did before. If anything, I now have to compete with other players selling similar goods, which has effected my sales dramatically. This doesn't benefit my guild much.

Sylvyr · September 2014

I used to have a very prosperous trade guild prior to the guild merchant implementation. Had about 400 active members with only a handful inactive for over a week. Had a large store and lots of trades in history.

I did get a merchant the first week at a very affordable price. Trades and guild bank grew quite well for that first week. The next week I lost the bid using a similar bid with a bit of upping it anticipating someone that lost the first week upping their bid. Lost the 2nd week. And sales dropped dramatically, recruiting came to a standstill as everyone started asking do you have a merchant? I dumped the entire guild bank on a bid the 3rd week and lost. between week 2 and 3 lost a lot of members and a ton of listings as people moved to guilds and goods to those with merchants. Haven't been able to recover since.

I refuse to put 100K+ of my own gold into a bid to win a merchant. That's just lame.

I refuse to charge a fee for membership. This creates a logistical nightmare of having to keep track of who paid what and turns the guild into a series of antagonistic instances of dude pay up or get out, who the hell wants that? It also puts pressure on the sellers to sell certain types of gear that are more profitable in order to meet weekly membership fees. It turns the membership into sellers instead of a healthy mix of buyers and sellers and those that simply want to trade items.

Also charging membership/doing raffles or whatever has created the opportunity for guild leaders to make BANK behind the scenes. They might make 300K in fees and raffles and spend 150K for a vendor, pocketing a huge profit. Theres very little way to tell. Sure you can see the bid in the history, but not all the income from mails.

This has created a huge rift between the haves and have nots.

This system is rotten.

I don't have a particular idea for a solution but there should be some fairness and equity for all. I understand the gold sink element and thats cool but maybe merchants should be merchants for all trade guilds that pay like a multi-guild broker. Reduce the amount of clutter that way maybe only have 1 guild merchant in each town. But the way it is now with limited merchants it's like saying here's a zone, only the first 400 people willing to spend the most can get in, how would that fly?

curlyqloub14_ESO · September 2014

DenverRalphy wrote: »

The best method would be to create a new currency that can only be generated by guild store sales. Instead of the guild cut providing regular gold, Guild Store sales should reward 1 guild token for every 1000g received from guild cut taxes. The guild tokens can only be spent on kiosk bids, and the tokens cannot be traded, sold, or acquired in any other way.

This would force guilds to bid based on their sales income. Bid too much, and the guild takes a loss that can't be padded through member donations.

[edit]I mentioned the 1/1000 trade ratio as a mechanic to prevent guild members from just buying/selling items back and forth to their own members for the sole purpose of generating tokens. 1/1000 ratio would result in a significant loss of gold income should anybody try to pad their tokens.

When I first read this, I though it sounded like a mess waiting to happen. But after thinking about it, yeah, this is a really good concept. It may not be perfect, but it's a good starting point.

I'd love to see a way for smaller guilds to get involved more too. Some of us like our small guild groups of social players, and aren't into big trading guilds. But we still have stuff to trade and sell. Unfortunately it's virtually impossible to compete with the big trading guilds for vendor carts (even if the system above was implemented). I'd love to see a way for multiple small guilds to opt into a "co-op" together, and go in on a vendor cart together to sell their goods. It would give us more of a chance to participate in the economy, and even sell to each other, without having to abandon our groups of friends just to have a chance to sell stuff.

jelliedsoup · September 2014

I would prefer a centralised market where all guilds have a store. Running round the countryside trying to find stores is painful.

Same principle as banks.

You could you even call this store a mall....

DenverRalphy · September 2014

curlyqloub14_ESO wrote: »

DenverRalphy wrote: »

The best method would be to create a new currency that can only be generated by guild store sales. Instead of the guild cut providing regular gold, Guild Store sales should reward 1 guild token for every 1000g received from guild cut taxes. The guild tokens can only be spent on kiosk bids, and the tokens cannot be traded, sold, or acquired in any other way.

This would force guilds to bid based on their sales income. Bid too much, and the guild takes a loss that can't be padded through member donations.

[edit]I mentioned the 1/1000 trade ratio as a mechanic to prevent guild members from just buying/selling items back and forth to their own members for the sole purpose of generating tokens. 1/1000 ratio would result in a significant loss of gold income should anybody try to pad their tokens.

When I first read this, I though it sounded like a mess waiting to happen. But after thinking about it, yeah, this is a really good concept. It may not be perfect, but it's a good starting point.

I'd love to see a way for smaller guilds to get involved more too. Some of us like our small guild groups of social players, and aren't into big trading guilds. But we still have stuff to trade and sell. Unfortunately it's virtually impossible to compete with the big trading guilds for vendor carts (even if the system above was implemented). I'd love to see a way for multiple small guilds to opt into a "co-op" together, and go in on a vendor cart together to sell their goods. It would give us more of a chance to participate in the economy, and even sell to each other, without having to abandon our groups of friends just to have a chance to sell stuff.

While I'm not bagging on small guilds... To be honest, small guilds really have no business bidding on kiosks unless they sell enough to justify the ownership.

Lately, a lot of small guilds have been bidding high on kiosks, and a substantially large portion of the player base is wondering why they even bothered, because there aren't enough wares to justify the purchase.

But that's neither here nor there... Small guilds without the sales will eventually stop because they're just wasting money.

I think a lot of small guilds bid on kiosks simply because they think they have to. They don't take time to consider the ramifications. A PvE/PvP guild with no emphasis on merchant trade, and less than 75 members, really has no business bidding. (quite frankly, my 75 members estimate is WAY low...)

Rodario · September 2014

I still like this idea the best:

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/129821/tweak-to-the-guild-trader-system-regional-markets

Sorry for promoting my thread, but it's what I believe to be the best solution.

GnatB · September 2014

babylon wrote: »

Gillysan wrote: »

Visible bids does not reward the hardcore players (how rude!). It would lead to more sensible bids. If the bidding is spiraling out of control this is good info. Also, what if you are in a small guild and there are 3 big guilds you are bidding against? This would help you decide if this trader is really worth it to you and your guild.

No it would lead to needing to stand by the kiosk at closing bid time and spamming to gain control of that kiosk. As in, no lifer wins.

It would be even worse than it is now.

Interesting point, but that assumes that people would always be willing to pay whatever price is neccessary to win the kiosk... which may be true. But then, that's somewhat what happens now, you just have to guess what you need to win. which admittedly *could* not be enough.

Easy solution though. Random undisclosed bidding end time some time on Sunday. Could also just throw in some rule where if a bid is uncontested for a 24 hour period at any time during the bidding process, it immediately wins for the upcoming week.

Of course, I still like a few other options over the current system:

1. Kill the stupid guild store concept and put in an actual global (or faction) market. The arbitragers can go find some other game to play the market in.

2. Remove the whole "bid" concept entirely, as well as first come first serve. Allow stalls to serve as many guilds as hire it (at a fixed price), but a guild can only hire 1 stall per week. Have hiring a stall automatically roll over unless explicitely cancelled, as long as there is enough money in the guild coffers. Better locations would have a higher price. When somebody buys from said merchant, they just see the combined listing of all guilds who have hired that particular stall. So sure, if the megaserver agrees, they could decide "NPC Y" is going to be the global merchant.