Sorc vs. Reflective Scales-spamming DK.

CapuchinSeven · September 2014

AlienDiplomat wrote: »

Basically my impression as well. One skill completely negates an entire class archetype. I don't think balance is even something ZOS is shooting for.

Sorcs are not the only one with this issue, the same can be said for Nightblades.

Shunravi · September 2014

CapuchinSeven wrote: »

AlienDiplomat wrote: »

Basically my impression as well. One skill completely negates an entire class archetype. I don't think balance is even something ZOS is shooting for.

Sorcs are not the only one with this issue, the same can be said for Nightblades.

I usually just attack the Dk with my s/b, fear, and shades. I stay on him, and watch for moments between abilities. It's not guaranteed that I will survive, but it gives me a chance. And I have killed a good many Dks and Templars this way...

Maulkin · September 2014

CapuchinSeven wrote: »

AlienDiplomat wrote: »

Basically my impression as well. One skill completely negates an entire class archetype. I don't think balance is even something ZOS is shooting for.

Sorcs are not the only one with this issue, the same can be said for Nightblades.

Well NBs are a mixture of Range & Melee so they've got it slightly better than Sorcs. Assassin's Blade, Veiled Strike and Teleport Strike are not reflected and that's more than a sorc can say. I dunno if Cripple gets reflected you might have to enlighten me on that one.

Obviously these bring you within melee range of a DK where he's practically lethal, but it's still possible if extremely hard.

I laugh at most Sorcs with my DK and with my Sorc I have to basically keep well away and hope someone tanks him for me while I chip in with a lowly ~200-300dps from range. In 1v1, I just BE away.

Ryzium · September 2014

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

CapuchinSeven wrote: »

AlienDiplomat wrote: »

Basically my impression as well. One skill completely negates an entire class archetype. I don't think balance is even something ZOS is shooting for.

Sorcs are not the only one with this issue, the same can be said for Nightblades.

Well NBs are a mixture of Range & Melee so they've got it slightly better than Sorcs. Assassin's Blade, Veiled Strike and Teleport Strike are not reflected and that's more than a sorc can say. I dunno if Cripple gets reflected you might have to enlighten me on that one.

Obviously these bring you within melee range of a DK where he's practically lethal, but it's still possible if extremely hard.

I laugh at most Sorcs with my DK and with my Sorc I have to basically keep well away and hope someone tanks him for me while I chip in with a lowly ~200-300dps from range. In 1v1, I just BE away.

Use deadric tomb with velocious curse and channel heavy atatcks, it does about (500) for velo (450) for tomb and (400+) for channel plus magic and health back = 1350 every 4 seconds

Arito · September 2014

There is no end to my happiness when I run across one of these with my templar. I just cast total dark on them and the missiles go out and back in to kill them. It is sometimes unreliable though. My sorc and NB are both ranged only, so it pretty much shuts them down completely.

GunemCleric · September 2014

thelordoffelines wrote: »

GunemCleric wrote: »

This is a case of L2P and QQ. seriously the reflect has not worked for months and they just *supposedly* fixed it. If NBs had not been horribly mutilated with 1.4 *patch* they would be rolling you.

I have been playing my DK since early access and only just started using reflect again because everyone and their mother is suddenly a master bowmen, crystal shards+snipe, javelin+snipe+venom arrow,... Despite the fact that most of what i reflect does not appear to be doing damage and appears to be a waste of at least 1 skill point. DKs do not have mobility, no invasion does not count, not sorry that you do not know enough about your skills to fight DKs. Most DKs are killed by Sorcs (ones I have talked to and compared stats with, such as KillCounter) so you are clearly not doing it right.

So what I see here is you cannot one/two shot DKs with sorc skills and you get squished because you have the survivability of a small child due to your glass cannon build not working.

Try using some of those other skills, everyone always brings out the "DK killed me"....
...QQ...nerf Dragons Blood (only returns 30% of what is *missing* health, spam to 100% == no resources, not even sure it is possible to actually get to 100% via dragons blood alone)
...QQ...nerf reflective scale (very funny when it was not even working, try the vast number of non-projectle abitlies...like resto attack, sword, impulse, you know use other *skills*)
...QQ...nerf Banner (its soooo hard to roll out of, funny roll gets you out of talons too)
...QQ...nerf Talons (CC lock is called...*out of stam*)
...QQ...nerf DKs cause they hurt my feelings

if as a sorc you are going to stand there in light armor with crystal shards and toe-to-toe a DK then your are not even worth a teabag after he or she rolls you.

If a DK is spamming reflect it is because a brilliant sorc is targeting him with crystal shards/snipe; it is only cost effective as an offense skill (mostly as a distraction), using it purely defense is only viable when not in direct combat, such as at bottom of wall. I pop reflect in battle only when i detect arrows/shards/stonefists, but keeping it up in battle will quickly mean i have no mag for dragons blood, or other more useful skills.

To reiterate...try learning a little more about the class. I suggest playing one for a while. No, DK is not the easy button, but I love it that people think and say that as those DKs are the ones that go down faster than a stunned NB. The real DKs are in the front fighting, the *easy button* DKs wear dresses and try to be sorcs/NBs and are there to complete our "Kill enemy DK" quests in minutes.

Please tell me how the *** this is a QQ thread. Hr came here asking for advice to defeat a certain build, he did no use.the word nerf at all. In fact it seems like the complete opposite of a QQ thread its a "I'm trying to learn something" thread. Read the OP next time.

perhaps QQ a little harsh, but this is yet another "i cant faceroll class X because of Y with the one skill i use, and i tried W and Z is broken" the implication and content follows "yes X is OP lets call for nerf"

it is always something until next fotw comes along. If BE is being reflected then that does not sound right, unless we are reflecting back at the sky. I have had BE land a couple times and i am sure I happened to have reflect (last night), so it does not sound like a constant thing.

As far as class match-ups, i still think that

Sorc (kills) DK
NB (kills) Sorc
Temp (kills) Sorc
DK (kills) NB

I do not think Temps have an easy weakness (unless you keep them on thier back) and everything I see is that temps have the highest consistent DPS in PvP. Very rarely does a NB actually kill me almost always after someone else has done the work. When I run into a NB in the wild they die or run, 2 NBs is almost always a draw, 1 templar is almost always a draw (later is a long fight and then mutual backing away)

In battle, dueling is not real fighting so cannot go by those as any type of real measure.

demonlkojipub19_ESO · September 2014

I thought this was going to be a video of a sorc killing a DK who uses reflective scale, because you know its totally possible to do.

s7732425ub17_ESO · September 2014

GunemCleric wrote: »

Sorc (kills) DK
NB (kills) Sorc
Temp (kills) Sorc
DK (kills) NB

So innacurate, I wish I could give this 10 LOLs.

GunemCleric · September 2014

s7732425ub17_ESO wrote: »

GunemCleric wrote: »

Sorc (kills) DK
NB (kills) Sorc
Temp (kills) Sorc
DK (kills) NB

So innacurate, I wish I could give this 10 LOLs.

i suppose you have stats to prove otherwise? Or are you just offering your unqualified opinion? Are you even running anything to collect your stats? Nearly everyone in my guild is and we compare notes.

Maulkin · September 2014

Ryzium wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

CapuchinSeven wrote: »

AlienDiplomat wrote: »

Basically my impression as well. One skill completely negates an entire class archetype. I don't think balance is even something ZOS is shooting for.

Sorcs are not the only one with this issue, the same can be said for Nightblades.

Well NBs are a mixture of Range & Melee so they've got it slightly better than Sorcs. Assassin's Blade, Veiled Strike and Teleport Strike are not reflected and that's more than a sorc can say. I dunno if Cripple gets reflected you might have to enlighten me on that one.

Obviously these bring you within melee range of a DK where he's practically lethal, but it's still possible if extremely hard.

I laugh at most Sorcs with my DK and with my Sorc I have to basically keep well away and hope someone tanks him for me while I chip in with a lowly ~200-300dps from range. In 1v1, I just BE away.

Use deadric tomb with velocious curse and channel heavy atatcks, it does about (500) for velo (450) for tomb and (400+) for channel plus magic and health back = 1350 every 4 seconds

I use velocious curse but get extremely frustrated when the spell gets replaced by another sorc's, it causes a huge drop to your dps and a loss of magicka. Daedric Tomb is very very expensive for such a situational spell. Not sure it's worth a place on the bar.

All destro heavy and light attacks are reflected. Resto no longer gives 10% damage increase and destro staffs give magicka return too now, so using it just for the channel seems overboard.

Though I will try to use s&b reflection, I haven't tried this yet.

Arito wrote: »

There is no end to my happiness when I run across one of these with my templar. I just cast total dark on them and the missiles go out and back in to kill them. It is sometimes unreliable though. My sorc and NB are both ranged only, so it pretty much shuts them down completely.

Yep, I ran across a lonely Templar a couple of days back and tried to duel him. Obviously my plan was to keep him ranged where I have superior dps and out of the range of his Invasion and Biting Jabs that mean you run out of stamina and die in secs.

Well, he started using Total Dark on me and I had to spent all my stamina to break away. I thought I'd fight till the end instead of just BE'ing away, but ended up losing as I couldn't put out enough non-projectile dmg via velocious curse and endless fury to take him down.

As with my reponse to @Ryzium, I'll try defensive posture when I level it.

I must say though, the constant scream for nerfs to BE are pretty funny considering how disadvantaged a caster-Sorc is against these melee warriors and their reflects. It's like saying "oh it's unfair how you can always escape, you shouldn't be able to....so I can always get to kill you when I engage you". Yeah, that's balance right there.

Epsilon_Echo · September 2014

This is not a complicated thing. I have a VR14 DK and Sorc. I leveled the second to learn how to kill them since in the early days (when nobody knew how to play their class) the only threat to me as a DK was a Sorc.

The more I play sorc the more laughable OP claims against the DK seem to be.

But to address OP. Here is log to an average DK kill.

DK casts Reflective Scales (likely at range)

Sorc casts Curse. Starts to kite.

DK attempts to close the gap (typically invasion).

Sorc blocks invasion.

DK casts tallons.

Sorc casts curse again (first has exploded at this point).

DK is about to Lava Whip .... BUT

This is where the sorc does his power play.

Soc Bolt escapes (the first curse blowing up is your que that DK Scales has worn off since it has almost the same timer).
Most DKs dont block while using Lava Whip against a taloned foe. Don't know why. That just how it usually plays out. This means that your BE has stunned the DK.

Sorc dodge rolls out of Talons while DK is stunned and casts his (more often than not) Proc'd Crystal shards.

Sorc casts Endless Fury.

I don't know how your build is but on my build that is almost exactly 2200 damage I've put out. If the target has 2600 Health or less that's a one-rotation kill because Fury will execute a low health target.

I am well aware that most Tank build DKs have more health than 2600.

In any event he is hurting. He lost a MASSIVE amount of health in less than 8 seconds. He has a choice to make. Does he cast Scales again? He has too, you wrecked him when it went down for just a second.

-400 magic

Does he cast Dragon Blood? He has too. He is almost critical health and vulnerable to execution.

-400 magic

Wait, how much magic did he use during the first rotation of the battle?
Scales? Whip? Talons?

-1080

Something tells me he is magic starved at this point. Keep your cool. Have your way with him, whisper sweet nothings in his ear. Finish the job. Don't be an idiot and do the /shovel emote, its tacky.

eliisra · September 2014

Pro tip: Soul Assault is not a Spell Projectile. Abuse this lame skill frequently against DK's.

Also there's Streak, DoT's, resto- or lighting heavy attacks in-between and the exploding pet, if you play sorc caster. Sorcerers also have the highest heavy/light attacks in the game with Surge.

Than there's FotM AoE, Impulse, Bats etc. It cant be reflected, blocked or mitigated by anything.

Besides, who the hell can 1v1 a good DK and expect to win easily? Not all of us can blink out of Talons....

Templars might have mele tools like Blazing Shield, but they only deal moderate dmg compared to a DK. Reason they usually loose (after a very long fight) is however resource management. They will run out of both magicka and stamina before the DK. Get stuck in Talons while knocked down by Invasion and whipped to death while oom/oos.

Nightblades, even Siphon ones, lacks survivability. They have tools like fear, or spamming shades to drain the DK's stamina. But if they build for sustain casting/magicka, they will run out of stamina after rolling out of multiple Talons. With a stamina build they cant 1v1 in the first place, only back-stab and flee if it fails.

Erock25 · September 2014

Epsilon_Echo wrote: »

This is not a complicated thing. I have a VR14 DK and Sorc. I leveled the second to learn how to kill them since in the early days (when nobody knew how to play their class) the only threat to me as a DK was a Sorc.

The more I play sorc the more laughable OP claims against the DK seem to be.

But to address OP. Here is log to an average DK kill.

DK casts Reflective Scales (likely at range)

Sorc casts Curse. Starts to kite.

DK attempts to close the gap (typically invasion).

Sorc blocks invasion.

DK casts tallons.

Sorc casts curse again (first has exploded at this point).

DK is about to Lava Whip .... BUT

This is where the sorc does his power play.

Soc Bolt escapes (the first curse blowing up is your que that DK Scales has worn off since it has almost the same timer).
Most DKs dont block while using Lava Whip against a taloned foe. Don't know why. That just how it usually plays out. This means that your BE has stunned the DK.

Sorc dodge rolls out of Talons while DK is stunned and casts his (more often than not) Proc'd Crystal shards.

Sorc casts Endless Fury.

I don't know how your build is but on my build that is almost exactly 2200 damage I've put out. If the target has 2600 Health or less that's a one-rotation kill because Fury will execute a low health target.

I am well aware that most Tank build DKs have more health than 2600.

In any event he is hurting. He lost a MASSIVE amount of health in less than 8 seconds. He has a choice to make. Does he cast Scales again? He has too, you wrecked him when it went down for just a second.

-400 magic

Does he cast Dragon Blood? He has too. He is almost critical health and vulnerable to execution.

-400 magic

Wait, how much magic did he use during the first rotation of the battle?
Scales? Whip? Talons?

-1080

Something tells me he is magic starved at this point. Keep your cool. Have your way with him, whisper sweet nothings in his ear. Finish the job. Don't be an idiot and do the /shovel emote, its tacky.

I like how this example says the Sorc will be blocking while the DK isn't. THat's not a biased opinion at all /sarcasm

Shunravi · September 2014

eliisra wrote: »

Nightblades, even Siphon ones, lacks survivability. They have tools like fear, or spamming shades to drain the DK's stamina. But if they build for sustain casting/magicka, they will run out of stamina after rolling out of multiple Talons. With a stamina build they cant 1v1 in the first place, only back-stab and flee if it fails.

Yea, pretty much. It is very hard if not impossible to solo a Dk as a nightblade. You find yourself very resto-reliant, which can be very detrimental if a Dk knows what he is doing vs it. You can do it with s/b or heated blade from dw, but again, tis tough vs that hp sustain.

Epsilon_Echo · September 2014

Erock25 wrote: »

I like how this example says the Sorc will be blocking while the DK isn't. THat's not a biased opinion at all /sarcasm

I never said the DK won't block. I said that after the immediate invasion-talons the DK begins to spam lava whip. 95% of the time they drop shield while doing this, I guess out of habit. If you bolt escape at this point then it stuns them. A proc'd Shard and Fury can both hit home before the target even has time to stamina break stun.

It's not guess work. It's a field tested rotation designed to make a DK play how I want him too.

Maulkin · September 2014

@Epsilon_Echo‌ I'm sorry to be too blunt but you said too much and you've said basically nothing.

I also have a maxed out Sorc and a DK, they are both Captain rank in AvA, so trust me I play both a lot and the mismatch on 1v1 is tremendous.

Velocious Curse explodes for ~550dmg after 3.5 secs. That's to a DK that doesn't stack harness. That's around ~150dps. Endless fury is another 220dps to bring you to a total of ~370dps, IF the DK has no shields. I can soak up that dmg very very easily and heal it back up with GDB no problem and be better off magicka-wise than the Sorc.

Endless Fury will be your death. I can reflect the explosion so I'm not worried about you dropping my health very low. Streak does little damage when blocked and has hugely increasing cost, so using it as DPS against a S&B DK is futile.

Fact is, against a well played DK the only thing I can do atm is run away and kite till we both get bored. I can kill the bad ones, but anyone can kill a bad player of any class. that means nothing

@eliisra the thread has a 1v1 focus. In large scale battles everyone kills everyone with AoE of course, that means not much at all. On 1v1 a DK can soak up the AoE dmg no problem.

Also GDB outheals Soul Assault without breaking a sweat. The only times I die to it is when I get ganged upon or stunned and then Soul Assaulted

I know some will say "the game was not designed for 1v1", to which I say fair enough I agree. But it's still a legitimate question from the OP, how do you best 1v1 a DK?

Phinix1 · September 2014

GunemCleric wrote: »

Pointless ad hominem accusation off QQ as an arguement:
This is a case of L2P and QQ. seriously the reflect has not worked for months and they just *supposedly* fixed it. If NBs had not been horribly mutilated with 1.4 *patch* they would be rolling you.

I have been playing my DK since early access and only just started using reflect again because everyone and their mother is suddenly a master bowmen, crystal shards+snipe, javelin+snipe+venom arrow,... Despite the fact that most of what i reflect does not appear to be doing damage and appears to be a waste of at least 1 skill point. DKs do not have mobility, no invasion does not count, not sorry that you do not know enough about your skills to fight DKs. Most DKs are killed by Sorcs (ones I have talked to and compared stats with, such as KillCounter) so you are clearly not doing it right.

So what I see here is you cannot one/two shot DKs with sorc skills and you get squished because you have the survivability of a small child due to your glass cannon build not working.

Try using some of those other skills, everyone always brings out the "DK killed me"....
...QQ...nerf Dragons Blood (only returns 30% of what is *missing* health, spam to 100% == no resources, not even sure it is possible to actually get to 100% via dragons blood alone)
...QQ...nerf reflective scale (very funny when it was not even working, try the vast number of non-projectle abitlies...like resto attack, sword, impulse, you know use other *skills*)
...QQ...nerf Banner (its soooo hard to roll out of, funny roll gets you out of talons too)
...QQ...nerf Talons (CC lock is called...*out of stam*)
...QQ...nerf DKs cause they hurt my feelings

if as a sorc you are going to stand there in light armor with crystal shards and toe-to-toe a DK then your are not even worth a teabag after he or she rolls you.

If a DK is spamming reflect it is because a brilliant sorc is targeting him with crystal shards/snipe; it is only cost effective as an offense skill (mostly as a distraction), using it purely defense is only viable when not in direct combat, such as at bottom of wall. I pop reflect in battle only when i detect arrows/shards/stonefists, but keeping it up in battle will quickly mean i have no mag for dragons blood, or other more useful skills.

To reiterate...try learning a little more about the class. I suggest playing one for a while. No, DK is not the easy button, but I love it that people think and say that as those DKs are the ones that go down faster than a stunned NB. The real DKs are in the front fighting, the *easy button* DKs wear dresses and try to be sorcs/NBs and are there to complete our "Kill enemy DK" quests in minutes.

The problem you are neglecting is that you are in combat pretty much until you return to a keep. I use Wykkyd's Outfitter to swap gear and skills with a single button, however that only works if you are out of combat.

What you are also neglecting is that this thread is about specifically DK's that keep reflective up ALL THE TIME. That should not be possible considering how OP this single ability is against the vast majority of builds and abilities in the game.

This single spammable ability not only negates any ranged magic user, but bow users, and even melee users throwing daggers, AND it causes 20% more damage than these attacks would have done back to the casters. Also, explain to me how an instant hit bolt of lightning is a "projectile." It is just stupid and you know it.

Reflective spamming DK's negate 80% or more of the damage in PVP. Just about anything other than direct melee attacks with Dual Wield, 2H, or 1H/Shield weapons, or AOE spam from siege or destro staff which puts you in melee range to get Talons+Whip spam.

The ability is ridiculous specifically because THERE IS NO COUNTER WITHOUT CHANGING YOUR BUILD, which cannot be done on the fly.

You telling me to "L2P" basically equates to your ignorance or acceptance of 80% of the builds in the game having no effective counter to one single ability other than respecing to melee.

I'm sure that sounds good to the DK mashing his epeen-stroking "iwin" button, but it is terrible for balance and long-term subscription sustainability of the game.

GnatB · September 2014

Sharee wrote: »

GnatB wrote: »

AlienDiplomat wrote: »

So basically as a spell Sorc the answer is "not much."

I appreciate the suggestion, and the 1H/Shield reflect might help some, but honestly I can't see myself swapping out my staff for a stamina set any time I see a DK.

I am still a little bit dubious as to what they consider "projectiles" as well.

Oh well, can't PVP without crashing anyway so I'll just forget about it.

I'll admit I'm no expert, but If you're using almost entirely class skills, is there any downside to equipping an S&B over a destro staff? IIRC destro staff passives only affect staff skills anyways. S&B gives you an extra item slot for an additional enchantment & extra set bonus slot. Even if shield reflect is the only stamina skill you use, so? You don't really need the staff anyways. And heck, anybody can take advantage of cheaper/better blocking

He said staff, not destro staff.

If he swaps out a resto staff, then he is losing 10% damage from the cycle of life passive.

Not anymore. (According to patch notes anyways. Anecdotal evidence indicates cycle of life hasn't actually changed yet. That said, destro staff did pick up mana regen abilities.)

Epsilon_Echo · September 2014

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

@Epsilon_Echo‌ I'm sorry to be too blunt but you said too much and you've said basically nothing.

I also have a maxed out Sorc and a DK, they are both Captain rank in AvA, so trust me I play both a lot and the mismatch on 1v1 is tremendous.

Velocious Curse explodes for ~550dmg after 3.5 secs. That's to a DK that doesn't stack harness. That's around ~150dps. Endless fury is another 220dps to bring you to a total of ~370dps, IF the DK has no shields. I can soak up that dmg very very easily and heal it back up with GDB no problem and be better off magicka-wise than the Sorc.

Endless Fury will be your death. I can reflect the explosion so I'm not worried about you dropping my health very low. Streak does little damage when blocked and has hugely increasing cost, so using it as DPS against a S&B DK is futile.

Fact is, against a well played DK the only thing I can do atm is run away and kite till we both get bored. I can kill the bad ones, but anyone can kill a bad player of any class. that means nothing

@eliisra the thread has a 1v1 focus. In large scale battles everyone kills everyone with AoE of course, that means not much at all. On 1v1 a DK can soak up the AoE dmg no problem.

Also GDB outheals Soul Assault without breaking a sweat. The only times I die to it is when I get ganged upon or stunned and then Soul Assaulted

I know some will say "the game was not designed for 1v1", to which I say fair enough I agree. But it's still a legitimate question from the OP, how do you best 1v1 a DK?

I'm not sure how I can explain it better. I spend a very large time dueling and have only met about 3 of the 500 members of the dueling guild who can kill me with a DK. I know of three others in the guild who can probably beat me but they happen to be my faction so I've never fought them.

Mind you, I'm not being sarcastic, we can always meet somewhere in cyro and have more physical demonstration.

Yusuf · September 2014

i use a 1h&s on my second bar and use the same tactics as them: invasion, encase, heavy&light attacks to get their block down and (very important) lightning flood. If enough people activate the synergy he drops like a fly.

EDIT: i'm full magicka 7/7 light armor btw

Ezareth · September 2014

AlienDiplomat wrote: »

What would you suggest a pure magicka Sorcerer do against a DK that keeps 100% uptime on reflective scales?

Tried kiting them until they were out of magicka, but they just Invasion (1H/Shield) and Talons spam, which half the time creates unbreakable CC, then kite right back until their magicka potion is ready.

Also, can someone explain to me please how ZOS thought it wise to make Velocious Curse a "projectile" (seriously?).

Weave Velocious Curse and mages wrath spam with light attacks. Neither can be blocked and do full damage. Keep out of invasion range while you're doing this. Hit them with fragments if they get closer and allow their reflective scales up.

Basically a DK can't infinitely keep scales up while spamming dragon blood. They don't have nearly the same mana efficiency that we do but DKs are a PITA to kill.

Also keep your shields up to deny them ult generation which will refill their resources if they use an ult.

Reflective scales DKs are the toughest fights for sorcs.

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

AlienDiplomat wrote: »

Ah. Then it must be the lightning bolt from Endless Fury that they consider a "projectile."

You are correct. (It's completely stupid that they have it this way, but still correct). Same with Force Shock/Crushing shock. I have difficulty seeing this as a projectile either.

Curse seems to be the way to go and try to use slip ups in the DK's timing, if you can.

They problem with this sort of thing is the lack of ability to change out skills once in combat.

Most people effectively have their set of 10 +2 predefined for a certain encounter. Run into something different (as OP indicates) and things get downright difficult.

Crushing shock has always been a projectile. Mage's fury is just bugged and has only been reflected after they "fixed" the mana return on the Endless Fury morph.

GunemCleric · September 2014

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

@Epsilon_Echo‌ I'm sorry to be too blunt but you said too much and you've said basically nothing.

I also have a maxed out Sorc and a DK, they are both Captain rank in AvA, so trust me I play both a lot and the mismatch on 1v1 is tremendous.

Velocious Curse explodes for ~550dmg after 3.5 secs. That's to a DK that doesn't stack harness. That's around ~150dps. Endless fury is another 220dps to bring you to a total of ~370dps, IF the DK has no shields. I can soak up that dmg very very easily and heal it back up with GDB no problem and be better off magicka-wise than the Sorc.

Endless Fury will be your death. I can reflect the explosion so I'm not worried about you dropping my health very low. Streak does little damage when blocked and has hugely increasing cost, so using it as DPS against a S&B DK is futile.

Fact is, against a well played DK the only thing I can do atm is run away and kite till we both get bored. I can kill the bad ones, but anyone can kill a bad player of any class. that means nothing

@eliisra the thread has a 1v1 focus. In large scale battles everyone kills everyone with AoE of course, that means not much at all. On 1v1 a DK can soak up the AoE dmg no problem.

Also GDB outheals Soul Assault without breaking a sweat. The only times I die to it is when I get ganged upon or stunned and then Soul Assaulted

I know some will say "the game was not designed for 1v1", to which I say fair enough I agree. But it's still a legitimate question from the OP, how do you best 1v1 a DK?

If you are trying with a Sorc, seriously, you need a mix of s&b and bolt. Make him chase you throw lighting, mines, volcanic rune (no projectiles). burn his stam and mag (keep immovable going).

Soul assault is ONLY good against a very low health DK, it is waste of a perfectly good ult. I ate 2 last night a same time, 2 GDB and whitestrake later I had 3/4 health (before my banner) and someone to hit my syn.

The burn-down rotation is good @Epsilon_Echo‌ , but 3k health 2k stam (and whitestake in my case) and GDB completely negate all your work and then you are close to not having mag to bolt or stam for immovable. closer to 1500 damage on tank build. btw I tend to stack defensive stance if a sorc acts like they know how to counter reflect, makes for good entertainment and at 250 stam is cheap backup plan

Ezareth · September 2014

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Ryzium wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

CapuchinSeven wrote: »

AlienDiplomat wrote: »

Basically my impression as well. One skill completely negates an entire class archetype. I don't think balance is even something ZOS is shooting for.

Sorcs are not the only one with this issue, the same can be said for Nightblades.

Well NBs are a mixture of Range & Melee so they've got it slightly better than Sorcs. Assassin's Blade, Veiled Strike and Teleport Strike are not reflected and that's more than a sorc can say. I dunno if Cripple gets reflected you might have to enlighten me on that one.

Obviously these bring you within melee range of a DK where he's practically lethal, but it's still possible if extremely hard.

I laugh at most Sorcs with my DK and with my Sorc I have to basically keep well away and hope someone tanks him for me while I chip in with a lowly ~200-300dps from range. In 1v1, I just BE away.

Use deadric tomb with velocious curse and channel heavy atatcks, it does about (500) for velo (450) for tomb and (400+) for channel plus magic and health back = 1350 every 4 seconds

I use velocious curse but get extremely frustrated when the spell gets replaced by another sorc's, it causes a huge drop to your dps and a loss of magicka. Daedric Tomb is very very expensive for such a situational spell. Not sure it's worth a place on the bar.

All destro heavy and light attacks are reflected. Resto no longer gives 10% damage increase and destro staffs give magicka return too now, so using it just for the channel seems overboard.

Though I will try to use s&b reflection, I haven't tried this yet.

Arito wrote: »

There is no end to my happiness when I run across one of these with my templar. I just cast total dark on them and the missiles go out and back in to kill them. It is sometimes unreliable though. My sorc and NB are both ranged only, so it pretty much shuts them down completely.

Yep, I ran across a lonely Templar a couple of days back and tried to duel him. Obviously my plan was to keep him ranged where I have superior dps and out of the range of his Invasion and Biting Jabs that mean you run out of stamina and die in secs.

Well, he started using Total Dark on me and I had to spent all my stamina to break away. I thought I'd fight till the end instead of just BE'ing away, but ended up losing as I couldn't put out enough non-projectile dmg via velocious curse and endless fury to take him down.

As with my reponse to @Ryzium, I'll try defensive posture when I level it.

I must say though, the constant scream for nerfs to BE are pretty funny considering how disadvantaged a caster-Sorc is against these melee warriors and their reflects. It's like saying "oh it's unfair how you can always escape, you shouldn't be able to....so I can always get to kill you when I engage you". Yeah, that's balance right there.

I put unstoppable on my power overload board for templar fights. It is far cheaper to use that to break out of eclipse than break free.

Maulkin · September 2014

Epsilon_Echo wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

@Epsilon_Echo‌ I'm sorry to be too blunt but you said too much and you've said basically nothing.

I also have a maxed out Sorc and a DK, they are both Captain rank in AvA, so trust me I play both a lot and the mismatch on 1v1 is tremendous.

Velocious Curse explodes for ~550dmg after 3.5 secs. That's to a DK that doesn't stack harness. That's around ~150dps. Endless fury is another 220dps to bring you to a total of ~370dps, IF the DK has no shields. I can soak up that dmg very very easily and heal it back up with GDB no problem and be better off magicka-wise than the Sorc.

Endless Fury will be your death. I can reflect the explosion so I'm not worried about you dropping my health very low. Streak does little damage when blocked and has hugely increasing cost, so using it as DPS against a S&B DK is futile.

Fact is, against a well played DK the only thing I can do atm is run away and kite till we both get bored. I can kill the bad ones, but anyone can kill a bad player of any class. that means nothing

@eliisra the thread has a 1v1 focus. In large scale battles everyone kills everyone with AoE of course, that means not much at all. On 1v1 a DK can soak up the AoE dmg no problem.

Also GDB outheals Soul Assault without breaking a sweat. The only times I die to it is when I get ganged upon or stunned and then Soul Assaulted

I know some will say "the game was not designed for 1v1", to which I say fair enough I agree. But it's still a legitimate question from the OP, how do you best 1v1 a DK?

I'm not sure how I can explain it better. I spend a very large time dueling and have only met about 3 of the 500 members of the dueling guild who can kill me with a DK. I know of three others in the guild who can probably beat me but they happen to be my faction so I've never fought them.

Mind you, I'm not being sarcastic, we can always meet somewhere in cyro and have more physical demonstration.

Sure we can try that. I'm AD faction in EU, if that's compatible with you we can meet up and try it out.

I know what you're saying about the stun after invasion, followed by CF's proc. I do that too. The reason DKs sometimes drop block while doing Flame Whip is because they animation cancel the light attack for more DPS, which of course requires you to let go of block or you would bash instead.

The trick above, requires a) an element of luck with the proc and b) that the DK is stupid enough to let go of block against a Sorc. It can happen in the heat of battle but on a 1v1 where you know you're up against a Sorc (he usually opens first with ranged spells) you'd have to be foolish to fall for that. I only do the animation cancel if invasion has knocked them down and there's no other players around.

There's a lot of videos with duels between players and it's evident that when a Sorc feels "honor bound" by the duel rules to stick and fight, he will 90% per cent of the time lose the fight against a DK of similar level. However like I said if your megaserver and faction choice allows us to meet up, I will gladly fight you over the weekend

Ezareth · September 2014

Epsilon_Echo wrote: »

This is not a complicated thing. I have a VR14 DK and Sorc. I leveled the second to learn how to kill them since in the early days (when nobody knew how to play their class) the only threat to me as a DK was a Sorc.

The more I play sorc the more laughable OP claims against the DK seem to be.

But to address OP. Here is log to an average DK kill.

DK casts Reflective Scales (likely at range)

Sorc casts Curse. Starts to kite.

DK attempts to close the gap (typically invasion).

Sorc blocks invasion.

DK casts tallons.

Sorc casts curse again (first has exploded at this point).

DK is about to Lava Whip .... BUT

This is where the sorc does his power play.

Soc Bolt escapes (the first curse blowing up is your que that DK Scales has worn off since it has almost the same timer).
Most DKs dont block while using Lava Whip against a taloned foe. Don't know why. That just how it usually plays out. This means that your BE has stunned the DK.

Sorc dodge rolls out of Talons while DK is stunned and casts his (more often than not) Proc'd Crystal shards.

Sorc casts Endless Fury.

I don't know how your build is but on my build that is almost exactly 2200 damage I've put out. If the target has 2600 Health or less that's a one-rotation kill because Fury will execute a low health target.

I am well aware that most Tank build DKs have more health than 2600.

In any event he is hurting. He lost a MASSIVE amount of health in less than 8 seconds. He has a choice to make. Does he cast Scales again? He has too, you wrecked him when it went down for just a second.

-400 magic

Does he cast Dragon Blood? He has too. He is almost critical health and vulnerable to execution.

-400 magic

Wait, how much magic did he use during the first rotation of the battle?
Scales? Whip? Talons?

-1080

Something tells me he is magic starved at this point. Keep your cool. Have your way with him, whisper sweet nothings in his ear. Finish the job. Don't be an idiot and do the /shovel emote, its tacky.

haha this is exactly what I do and it works *very* well.

Now there are some DKs you won't kill with this who can play very defensively, but they aren't killing you either but 95%+ of DKs I fight die to this.

Armitas · September 2014

AlienDiplomat wrote: »

The ability is ridiculous specifically because THERE IS NO COUNTER WITHOUT CHANGING YOUR BUILD, which cannot be done on the fly.

This is true, but this is not unique to reflective scales. Every class has to deal with this same issue. Magelight for NB, whatever the counter is for BE, and ranged for Templars blazing shield.

For the most part the other classes determine our builds, not ourselves. I wish there were a better way but I don't know how.

____
OP is asking for suggestions, and people say L2P. Anywhere else I would be surprised.

GunemCleric · September 2014

AlienDiplomat wrote: »

GunemCleric wrote: »

Pointless ad hominem accusation off QQ as an arguement:
This is a case of L2P and QQ. seriously the reflect has not worked for months and they just *supposedly* fixed it. If NBs had not been horribly mutilated with 1.4 *patch* they would be rolling you.

I have been playing my DK since early access and only just started using reflect again because everyone and their mother is suddenly a master bowmen, crystal shards+snipe, javelin+snipe+venom arrow,... Despite the fact that most of what i reflect does not appear to be doing damage and appears to be a waste of at least 1 skill point. DKs do not have mobility, no invasion does not count, not sorry that you do not know enough about your skills to fight DKs. Most DKs are killed by Sorcs (ones I have talked to and compared stats with, such as KillCounter) so you are clearly not doing it right.

So what I see here is you cannot one/two shot DKs with sorc skills and you get squished because you have the survivability of a small child due to your glass cannon build not working.

Try using some of those other skills, everyone always brings out the "DK killed me"....
...QQ...nerf Dragons Blood (only returns 30% of what is *missing* health, spam to 100% == no resources, not even sure it is possible to actually get to 100% via dragons blood alone)
...QQ...nerf reflective scale (very funny when it was not even working, try the vast number of non-projectle abitlies...like resto attack, sword, impulse, you know use other *skills*)
...QQ...nerf Banner (its soooo hard to roll out of, funny roll gets you out of talons too)
...QQ...nerf Talons (CC lock is called...*out of stam*)
...QQ...nerf DKs cause they hurt my feelings

if as a sorc you are going to stand there in light armor with crystal shards and toe-to-toe a DK then your are not even worth a teabag after he or she rolls you.

If a DK is spamming reflect it is because a brilliant sorc is targeting him with crystal shards/snipe; it is only cost effective as an offense skill (mostly as a distraction), using it purely defense is only viable when not in direct combat, such as at bottom of wall. I pop reflect in battle only when i detect arrows/shards/stonefists, but keeping it up in battle will quickly mean i have no mag for dragons blood, or other more useful skills.

To reiterate...try learning a little more about the class. I suggest playing one for a while. No, DK is not the easy button, but I love it that people think and say that as those DKs are the ones that go down faster than a stunned NB. The real DKs are in the front fighting, the *easy button* DKs wear dresses and try to be sorcs/NBs and are there to complete our "Kill enemy DK" quests in minutes.

The problem you are neglecting is that you are in combat pretty much until you return to a keep. I use Wykkyd's Outfitter to swap gear and skills with a single button, however that only works if you are out of combat.

What you are also neglecting is that this thread is about specifically DK's that keep reflective up ALL THE TIME. That should not be possible considering how OP this single ability is against the vast majority of builds and abilities in the game.

This single spammable ability not only negates any ranged magic user, but bow users, and even melee users throwing daggers, AND it causes 20% more damage than these attacks would have done back to the casters. Also, explain to me how an instant hit bolt of lightning is a "projectile." It is just stupid and you know it.

Reflective spamming DK's negate 80% or more of the damage in PVP. Just about anything other than direct melee attacks with Dual Wield, 2H, or 1H/Shield weapons, or AOE spam from siege or destro staff which puts you in melee range to get Talons+Whip spam.

The ability is ridiculous specifically because THERE IS NO COUNTER WITHOUT CHANGING YOUR BUILD, which cannot be done on the fly.

You telling me to "L2P" basically equates to your ignorance or acceptance of 80% of the builds in the game having no effective counter to one single ability other than respecing to melee.

I'm sure that sounds good to the DK mashing his epeen-stroking "iwin" button, but it is terrible for balance and long-term subscription sustainability of the game.

when you say something like "One skill completely negates an entire class archetype. I don't think balance is even something ZOS is shooting for." it is you showing ignorance. You do not have to build for it specifically, but if *you* are dying because of that one skill then you are doing it wrong.

If @ezareth_ESO‌ was saying that reflect was OP or calling for a nerf on reflect then there might be something to it as he has gotten (too) good at killing DKs, but then Sorcs are far more likely to kill DKs than other classes anyway. several told you ways to counter, now you have been told a rotation or two and have some advice. Do you still think that reflect is OP?

Ezareth · September 2014

GunemCleric wrote: »

AlienDiplomat wrote: »

GunemCleric wrote: »

Pointless ad hominem accusation off QQ as an arguement:
This is a case of L2P and QQ. seriously the reflect has not worked for months and they just *supposedly* fixed it. If NBs had not been horribly mutilated with 1.4 *patch* they would be rolling you.

I have been playing my DK since early access and only just started using reflect again because everyone and their mother is suddenly a master bowmen, crystal shards+snipe, javelin+snipe+venom arrow,... Despite the fact that most of what i reflect does not appear to be doing damage and appears to be a waste of at least 1 skill point. DKs do not have mobility, no invasion does not count, not sorry that you do not know enough about your skills to fight DKs. Most DKs are killed by Sorcs (ones I have talked to and compared stats with, such as KillCounter) so you are clearly not doing it right.

So what I see here is you cannot one/two shot DKs with sorc skills and you get squished because you have the survivability of a small child due to your glass cannon build not working.

Try using some of those other skills, everyone always brings out the "DK killed me"....
...QQ...nerf Dragons Blood (only returns 30% of what is *missing* health, spam to 100% == no resources, not even sure it is possible to actually get to 100% via dragons blood alone)
...QQ...nerf reflective scale (very funny when it was not even working, try the vast number of non-projectle abitlies...like resto attack, sword, impulse, you know use other *skills*)
...QQ...nerf Banner (its soooo hard to roll out of, funny roll gets you out of talons too)
...QQ...nerf Talons (CC lock is called...*out of stam*)
...QQ...nerf DKs cause they hurt my feelings

if as a sorc you are going to stand there in light armor with crystal shards and toe-to-toe a DK then your are not even worth a teabag after he or she rolls you.

If a DK is spamming reflect it is because a brilliant sorc is targeting him with crystal shards/snipe; it is only cost effective as an offense skill (mostly as a distraction), using it purely defense is only viable when not in direct combat, such as at bottom of wall. I pop reflect in battle only when i detect arrows/shards/stonefists, but keeping it up in battle will quickly mean i have no mag for dragons blood, or other more useful skills.

To reiterate...try learning a little more about the class. I suggest playing one for a while. No, DK is not the easy button, but I love it that people think and say that as those DKs are the ones that go down faster than a stunned NB. The real DKs are in the front fighting, the *easy button* DKs wear dresses and try to be sorcs/NBs and are there to complete our "Kill enemy DK" quests in minutes.

The problem you are neglecting is that you are in combat pretty much until you return to a keep. I use Wykkyd's Outfitter to swap gear and skills with a single button, however that only works if you are out of combat.

What you are also neglecting is that this thread is about specifically DK's that keep reflective up ALL THE TIME. That should not be possible considering how OP this single ability is against the vast majority of builds and abilities in the game.

This single spammable ability not only negates any ranged magic user, but bow users, and even melee users throwing daggers, AND it causes 20% more damage than these attacks would have done back to the casters. Also, explain to me how an instant hit bolt of lightning is a "projectile." It is just stupid and you know it.

Reflective spamming DK's negate 80% or more of the damage in PVP. Just about anything other than direct melee attacks with Dual Wield, 2H, or 1H/Shield weapons, or AOE spam from siege or destro staff which puts you in melee range to get Talons+Whip spam.

The ability is ridiculous specifically because THERE IS NO COUNTER WITHOUT CHANGING YOUR BUILD, which cannot be done on the fly.

You telling me to "L2P" basically equates to your ignorance or acceptance of 80% of the builds in the game having no effective counter to one single ability other than respecing to melee.

I'm sure that sounds good to the DK mashing his epeen-stroking "iwin" button, but it is terrible for balance and long-term subscription sustainability of the game.

when you say something like "One skill completely negates an entire class archetype. I don't think balance is even something ZOS is shooting for." it is you showing ignorance. You do not have to build for it specifically, but if *you* are dying because of that one skill then you are doing it wrong.

If @ezareth_ESO‌ was saying that reflect was OP or calling for a nerf on reflect then there might be something to it as he has gotten (too) good at killing DKs, but then Sorcs are far more likely to kill DKs than other classes anyway. several told you ways to counter, now you have been told a rotation or two and have some advice. Do you still think that reflect is OP?

I think reflect is very powerful but it is fine. It is a class defining ability of DKs and they deserve it just as sorcs deserve bolt escape, templars blazing shield etc.

My only issue with Reflective scales is the bug with Mages fury but I imagine at some point in the distant future they'll fix that.

Phinix1 · September 2014

In my experience, doing basically what you suggested (kiting with curse weaving, trying to exploit gaps in their Reflect spamming, etc), it comes down to reliance not on MY skill but on the DK screwing up.

The one I played cast Reflective again before it expired every time. By mixing in their 1H/Shield reflect, invasion, and Immovable (and I think some other stamina abilities), they are able to drain MY stamina and magicka while basically biding time until they can use a potion.

It seemed like a no-win situation, unless they screwed up. The fight would just drag on for infinity (since I have pretty high magicka regen and potions as well).

I do appreciate the advise.

shanersimms_ESO · September 2014

AlienDiplomat wrote: »

What would you suggest a pure magicka Sorcerer do against a DK that keeps 100% uptime on reflective scales?

Tried kiting them until they were out of magicka, but they just Invasion (1H/Shield) and Talons spam, which half the time creates unbreakable CC, then kite right back until their magicka potion is ready.

Also, can someone explain to me please how ZOS thought it wise to make Velocious Curse a "projectile" (seriously?).

You need to use abilities that aren't considered projectiles:

1. Velocitous Curse
2. Mages Fury (Endless Fury) - You can spam this all day long on DK's as they spam Reflective Scales they will lose total resources much faster than you.
3. Daedric Mines - Throw these down at your feet, and keep as many mines between you and the dk as possible, when he invasions he'll hit at least a couple if not all the mines.
4. Heavy Attacks from Resto Staff/Lightning Staff

Also hold parry constantly and their invasion is rather worthless. After DK's charge in on you (and onto your mines) Streak (Bolt Escape) through them and put mines down again and spam Vel Curse/Mages Fury as you desire.

The above causes me to have little issues wth DK's as a Sorc wielding Destro and Resto Staff.