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Too Many Skills, Not Enough Buttons - Why Some Abilities Don't Get Used vs 1 Button Spam
Soliss
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Face it, with as many skills that you have access to and the limited amount of buttons you can set them to, many skills will probably never stay very long people's bars.
THE PROBLEMS THIS CREATES:
1) Skill spamming. Because some skills are simply better, you really have less choices when setting up your skills and when you fight, you basically spam the same button over and over again because there's no room for other skills.
2) Toggle skills that just take up space. You only have so many buttons to press. For an action-combat game, less buttons to press takes away from your options. Buffs that you recast once every 20 to 60 seconds create the same issue. How annoying is it to have Sorcerer pet summons and if you accidentally press that button, it unsummons - so you have to avoid pressing that button in combat... (not that anyone really uses pet summons in pvp anyhow)
3) Some skills won't get used. Because face it, they aren't good enough to beat out skills you put on your bar. There are just too few options. Zenimax tries to balance out skills, but unless they make something overtly better, people really won't use them. I see the same abilities being used by people and there are a lot of abilities that people simply don't or won't use.
WHY IS IT LIKE THIS?
Probably because ESO is going to end up a console game, they have to limit the number of buttons available. But as a PC gamer, I feel really limited like I can't do what I want to do with my character because of the limited number of slots.
SUGGESTIONS TO FIX THIS:
1) Give us an option of having up to 2 PASSIVE/BUFF skills that aren't on a bar. These can be pets, weapon buffs, etc. You'd activate them and they'd stay up until you die (or the pet dies and you need to recast etc). This would allow us to maintain at least a full hotbar of ACTIVE skills to use.
2) Hotbars that tier into other hotbars. This one is a little more complicated. What you would do is have one button activate another hotbar instead of an ability. Like for example pressing 5 changes your hotbar to another hotbar (for the same weapon), but you can put 4 additional skills on it. Then pressing 5 would change it back. This is in addition to having a weapon swap. Not the most ideal, but I'm trying to work with the limitations of a console button layout. This would open a lot of possibilities by having this occur. The upcoming weapon swap delay lag fixes should help with this also.
3) Create more skill combo's. Create more abilities that create useful effects when done in a certain order. This creates more opportunistic effects instead of spam, spam, spam the same button over and over again.
@ZOS_JessicaFolsom, @ZOS_BrianWheeler , @ZOS_GinaBruno , what do you think?
Anyone have any other ideas on how to make this a more active and interesting game with more options on how to build out your skill bars?
THE PROBLEMS THIS CREATES:
1) Skill spamming. Because some skills are simply better, you really have less choices when setting up your skills and when you fight, you basically spam the same button over and over again because there's no room for other skills.
2) Toggle skills that just take up space. You only have so many buttons to press. For an action-combat game, less buttons to press takes away from your options. Buffs that you recast once every 20 to 60 seconds create the same issue. How annoying is it to have Sorcerer pet summons and if you accidentally press that button, it unsummons - so you have to avoid pressing that button in combat... (not that anyone really uses pet summons in pvp anyhow)
3) Some skills won't get used. Because face it, they aren't good enough to beat out skills you put on your bar. There are just too few options. Zenimax tries to balance out skills, but unless they make something overtly better, people really won't use them. I see the same abilities being used by people and there are a lot of abilities that people simply don't or won't use.
WHY IS IT LIKE THIS?
Probably because ESO is going to end up a console game, they have to limit the number of buttons available. But as a PC gamer, I feel really limited like I can't do what I want to do with my character because of the limited number of slots.
SUGGESTIONS TO FIX THIS:
1) Give us an option of having up to 2 PASSIVE/BUFF skills that aren't on a bar. These can be pets, weapon buffs, etc. You'd activate them and they'd stay up until you die (or the pet dies and you need to recast etc). This would allow us to maintain at least a full hotbar of ACTIVE skills to use.
2) Hotbars that tier into other hotbars. This one is a little more complicated. What you would do is have one button activate another hotbar instead of an ability. Like for example pressing 5 changes your hotbar to another hotbar (for the same weapon), but you can put 4 additional skills on it. Then pressing 5 would change it back. This is in addition to having a weapon swap. Not the most ideal, but I'm trying to work with the limitations of a console button layout. This would open a lot of possibilities by having this occur. The upcoming weapon swap delay lag fixes should help with this also.
3) Create more skill combo's. Create more abilities that create useful effects when done in a certain order. This creates more opportunistic effects instead of spam, spam, spam the same button over and over again.
@ZOS_JessicaFolsom, @ZOS_BrianWheeler , @ZOS_GinaBruno , what do you think?
Anyone have any other ideas on how to make this a more active and interesting game with more options on how to build out your skill bars?
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eliisra✭✭✭✭✭
✭I would be happy if the toggle skills where changed to timed buffs instead.
As a healer or caster dps you definitely need Mage's Light for example. That leaves you with 8 skills to use. Than added the delay and problems with weapon swap and you're often stuck with only 4 skills. It's boring game play.
Worse is how sorcerers have an entire skill line of annoying toggles eating 2 skill slots. I sometimes see them with 2 pets, Bone Armour and Mage's Light on and I'm awfully curious how they even manage to enjoy the game
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UPrime✭✭✭✭If some abilities don't get used because they're not as good as others, then that's a problem with those abilities and they need to be fixed. More slots just means you'll still have the best and other abilities still won't get used.
With skill spamming, again, that's a problem with ability design, rather then the fact that you only have 5 slots. Case in point, Sorc has an ability that when another ability triggers an effect, it becomes insta cast and cheaper to use. That prevents just spaming one ability for optimal dps. They need more of that kind of stuff.1 -
Lynx7386✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Personally I would change all buff type spells in the game to toggle abilities and, as the op said, add two slots to the interface that can only be used for toggle abilities. That would free up at least one ability slot for every class, and two in many cases.
Familiar, winged twilight, bound armor, and surge for sorcs
haste, blur, summon shades, and siphoning strikes for nightblade
Inferno, spiked armor, and molten weapons for dk
Radiant aura and rune ward for templar
Inner light for mages guild
Hunter for mages guild
PS4 / NA
M'asad - Khajiit Nightblade - Healer
Pakhet - Khajiit Dragonknight - Tank
Raksha - Khajiit Sorcerer - Stamina DPS
Bastet - Khajiit Templar - Healer
Leonin - Khajiit Warden - Tank1 -
A couple of additional slots for toggled buffs is urgently needed (or just more than 5 slots but that is less likely to happen). Currently, with a typical load-out of 2 x buffs, 1 x defence/ escape ability, 1 x AOE, 1 x Second AOE or Single target DPS combat is virtually all spam best AOE ability until most mobs drop and then hit single target DPS once to drop remaining mob.
Other possibilities are usable, but they are generally less effective, with the exception of switching in some healing once in a blue moon when facing a harder hitting boss mob. More slots = more options for variety in tactics.1 -
jesterstear✭✭✭At VR4, I'm finding this. There are so many skills I'd take a refund on if it was possible without resetting all point allocations and the cost of doing so was not so ruinous.
It's a combination of the lack of slots and some skills being too situational.
At VR2 I finally decided to be like every other Templar out there and open up the Aedric spear line. Since then, I've had no use for Entropy morphs , or Silver Bolts.
Puncturing sweep has low magika cost, does decent single target and AOE, it interrupts casting, and it heals you. The healing makes Entropy/Degeneration redundant, it costs slightly more but is offset by applying to multiple targets. Against Silver Bolts, it has the advantage of healing and using less of a resource with better availability.
There's various guild CC skills like trapping webs, turn undead, but why would I waste a slot on a skill like that when I want them to come to me and experience the aoe love from puncturing sweep.
Finally we have the sword and board line. Low cut might work as a debuff if it was aoe, didn't cost so much scarce stamina and lasted longer, and if I had room on my bar for it. Defensive posture/absorb magick, doesn't work on a lot of staff-user cast abilities that are classed as physical/elemental rather than magical. It costs a very big chunk of stamina too for something that blocks only one attack. Needs buffing too, but given the paucity of slots, still don't think it's see much use.0 -
Kego✭✭✭✭Maybe it would be more interessting with Weapon Bars like:
4x Offensive Skill
2x Defensive Skill
1x Toggle Skill
1x Ultimate
Would be 8 Skills per Weapon Set, more than now but less enough to play aorund with Skills.1 -
Koshchei✭✭I think it's fine. It forces you to think proactively about the upcoming encounter and choose a limited set of tools to overcome it.
Yes, you can probably complete Cadwell's Gold by spamming the same 5 abilities you've been using since level 8, but what the other skills bring to the table is versatility and nuance. Part of the game is exploring the interesting synergies that different skills lend to one another.0 -
Kego✭✭✭✭On that point you are right but what will happen with new Skills from Spellcrafting?
I hope we get at least one more Slot, just for those Skills, cause if not, it would be hard to replace any current skill, just for one of them. Excpecially if these are Support Skills, as we already have enough that we have to use.1 -
Kcttocs✭✭✭I'd like it if Mages Light stayed on when you do weapon swap.. hate eating up a slot just for that
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Soliss✭✭✭It will probably get even worse as they add more abilities from Dark Brotherhood, Thieves Guild and spellcrafting. Even more things to use but not enough slots to use them...
Right now, builds seem so limiting.Edited by Soliss on August 21, 2014 1:07AM0 -
Apothecy✭✭✭A thought that always crossed my head is that the PC version could have more active skills available to use than the console version (which would be at the current five). But then you might get console players complaining that they don't get the same features as the PC crowd.Main: Imperial -- Nightblade -- LVL 50
Faction: Daggerfall Covenant
Platform: PC0 -
xarguideb17_ESO✭✭✭I agree, it's really aggravating to sacrifice precious skillbar slots for toggles.
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CapuchinSeven✭✭✭✭✭
✭People are probably going to have to accept you're playing a console game on a PC.0 -
Stannum✭✭✭✭If such slots will be added the game should be completely reballanced.
Compare Sorc with his Zoo, maglight, armour added to there active bar & NB with recastable useless shade, speed & blur & toggled siphoning strikes that lows dps.Edited by Stannum on August 21, 2014 1:14PM0 -
Pmarsico9✭✭✭✭Radiant Aura and Rune Focus are not toggles. Both are probably examples for what a lot of these buffs should be, as Rune Focus requires standing in the ground effect and Radiant Aura is way more powerful with it's activate.
If Magelight was a 5% buff, then sure. But it's a 20% buff with Inner Light specced and a massive PVP damage reduction if specced the other way.
So I can't see that working. It's simply too good.
I can't really think of any beyond that.
Adding more hotkeys would break the game, imo, when you have access to so much. I just wish they had gone a step further and not put classes in and made the 12 class skill lines all just additional skill lines you can pick from.
Even if it yielded FotM, at least you could buff or nerf SPECIFICS instead of killing entire classes.
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Tankqull✭✭✭✭✭
✭simple fix change the qb-system from
2x(5+1) to 10+2 [with weapon swap in background without changing the qb]
this would negate any toggle/and redundant doubleslotting issues in one go without screwing the entire system.spelling and grammar errors are free to be abused
Sallington wrote: »Anything useful that players are wanting added into the game all fall under the category of "Yer ruinin my 'mersion!"0 -
purple-magicb16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭When u get to VR they shd give you 8 hotkeys to slot your skills with instead of the standard 6. ;-)Edited by purple-magicb16_ESO on August 25, 2014 6:00PMI don't comment here often but when I do, I get [snip]0 -
Morvoldo✭✭Maybe it would be more interesting with Weapon Bars like:
4x Offensive Skill
2x Defensive Skill
1x Toggle Skill
1x Ultimate
Would be 8 Skills per Weapon Set, more than now but less enough to play around with Skills.
This is what i would also like But with this improvement :-
toggle skills should be permanent Buffs for those classes or shared if in a group, be better for raids if only 1 class has Magelight active and another has say the siphoning strikes HP return active and all players in that group get the Buff like the Mage Intellect Buff from wow (no stacks if another has same) these would be good.
except pet summons as once put points into these should be permanent anyways, just choose 1 or the other.Edited by Morvoldo on August 25, 2014 6:27PM0 -
olsborg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭BTW if toggles got their own slot, everyone would run around With magelight. I pity all the nightblades.
PC EU
PvP only0 -
Gillysan✭✭✭✭I'm hoping they will add some of the GW (not GW2) design with encounters, zones and skills interaction. That was fun, where you needed certain skill synergies to fight entire areas of mobs or survive a boss. Move to another area and swap out skills to survive those mobs. The amount of skills to collect in that game was amazing and really kept you busy. Over time the community figured out what worked where and why.Crafting Services http://tinyurl.com/GillysansStore Organizational Guide http://tinyurl.com/GillysansEnchanterLeveling
ESO Dwemer Ruins List
Dwemer Forum Thread0 -
guybrushtb16_ESO✭✭✭✭I think it's fine. It forces you to think proactively about the upcoming encounter and choose a limited set of tools to overcome it.
Yes, you can probably complete Cadwell's Gold by spamming the same 5 abilities you've been using since level 8, but what the other skills bring to the table is versatility and nuance. Part of the game is exploring the interesting synergies that different skills lend to one another.
That sounds nice, but in reality, there is absolutely nothing in the way of encounter variety that would warrant changing your skills over it in the entire campaign, or at least I couldn't find it.
In fact, many morphs or even entire skills are so completely useless that there really is no situation in the game where you should be using them.0 -
Pmarsico9✭✭✭✭guybrushtb16_ESO wrote: »I think it's fine. It forces you to think proactively about the upcoming encounter and choose a limited set of tools to overcome it.
Yes, you can probably complete Cadwell's Gold by spamming the same 5 abilities you've been using since level 8, but what the other skills bring to the table is versatility and nuance. Part of the game is exploring the interesting synergies that different skills lend to one another.
That sounds nice, but in reality, there is absolutely nothing in the way of encounter variety that would warrant changing your skills over it in the entire campaign, or at least I couldn't find it.
In fact, many morphs or even entire skills are so completely useless that there really is no situation in the game where you should be using them.
This has a lot to do with issues that exist regarding Damage Per Magicka. This game shouldn't be based upon DPS/HPS but that's all it's based about. Most mechanics are straight up dominated by that.
And the one role that does change their loadouts, pure tanking, is useful in about 1% of the game.0 -
Troponin✭✭✭I don't want to see anything that forces us to use only certain types of skills. GW2 pulled that crap and I left because of the lack of complexity that the first one had. I would like it to be a bit less monotonous though, but I don't want to have to bind my entire keyboard in the process either.0
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Gillysan✭✭✭✭Huh? GW lacked complexity? You ran up to 6 characters (memory getting fuzzy, it's been years): your direct controlled character and 5 companions. You had your skills and your companions were different classes with their own skills that you set up. You could optimize to fight through an area or you could stick to a more generic loadout for your team that simply wasn't as efficient but still doable. Add to that armors for you and your AI companions with certain buff enhancements.
That's not a short list and only for one of the professions: Ritualist.
GW2 had a fair variety and on top of that you could pick up weapons temporarily that had it's own skills, thus changing your skills literally in the middle of combat. Also respec was dirt cheap. It was just more arcade style than the original. The original might require you to plan things out in advance.Edited by Gillysan on September 15, 2014 2:51PMCrafting Services http://tinyurl.com/GillysansStore Organizational Guide http://tinyurl.com/GillysansEnchanterLeveling
ESO Dwemer Ruins List
Dwemer Forum Thread0 -
guybrushtb16_ESO✭✭✭✭Huh? GW lacked complexity? You ran up to 6 characters (memory getting fuzzy, it's been years): your direct controlled character and 5 companions. You had your skills and your companions were different classes with their own skills that you set up. You could optimize to fight through an area or you could stick to a more generic loadout for your team that simply wasn't as efficient but still doable. Add to that armors for you and your AI companions with certain buff enhancements.
That's not a short list and only for one of the professions: Ritualist.
GW2 had a fair variety and on top of that you could pick up weapons temporarily that had it's own skills, thus changing your skills literally in the middle of combat. Also respec was dirt cheap. It was just more arcade style than the original. The original might require you to plan things out in advance.
IMO GW2 sacrificed just about eveything that made GW1 stand out and molded it into just another generic theme park mmo, complete with garbage mainstream storyline and gameplay. Not a bad one at that after all, but I still grudge them that personally.0 -
Troponin✭✭✭Huh? GW lacked complexity? You ran up to 6 characters (memory getting fuzzy, it's been years): your direct controlled character and 5 companions. You had your skills and your companions were different classes with their own skills that you set up. You could optimize to fight through an area or you could stick to a more generic loadout for your team that simply wasn't as efficient but still doable. Add to that armors for you and your AI companions with certain buff enhancements.
That's not a short list and only for one of the professions: Ritualist.
GW2 had a fair variety and on top of that you could pick up weapons temporarily that had it's own skills, thus changing your skills literally in the middle of combat. Also respec was dirt cheap. It was just more arcade style than the original. The original might require you to plan things out in advance.
You misread. I said GW had complexity, GW2 did not0