Options for Vampire Appearance

Aoife32001 · September 2014

MornaBaine wrote: »

This is Lamae from the vampire quest. LOOK at her. She ALSO pretty clearly has the ability to NOT look like a disease ravaged vampire. Now the argument has run that she is an actual Daughter of Cold Harbor and therefore has this ability whereas her "children" are somehow inferior (perhaps because their transformation was triggered by bloodfiends) and therefore do not. We also can't float in the air which is also a drag. LOL But it seems odd to me that she would fail to gift her brood with this particular camouflage which would be absolutely vital to their success and longevity. She was certainly ABLE to give it to the Cyrodilic vamps she created. IF my original suggestion is ultimately implemented at some point, it would simply be assumed that this is exactly what she did. If one of my latter two suggestions are implemented then this is explained as simply being a magical illusion crafty vampires have come up with in order to survive. NEITHER breaks with lore.

Lamae's appearance is a strong a priori argument in favor of your position, but it doesn't ultimately resolve the issue on closer examination, and leaves us in the same place with an underdetermination of evidence.

For example, a trait of the lord/matron of the line does not imply that his/her brood would have this trait. Actually, it is clearly stated on USEPWiki that decedents of vampire lords do not necessarily have the benefits of the lord. For example, in some clans, it is possible to kill/cure all of the lord's decedents by killing the lord. Thus, the brood have a derivative existence, in these clans at least, that would make them inferior to the lord.

It is by no means clear that she would be able to give such a gift as a normal appearance to the vampires she created (and she didn't create any Cyrodilic vampires, as that is a separate clan). Everything she has has been given to her by Molag Bal. None of it derives from herself. Granted, it is not explicitly excluded as a possibility either, and the fact that vampires in her line do not merely have their own blood infected, but have it replaced with hers, would argue in your favor.

That being said, and while USEPWiki does not explicitly state that Lamae bloodline vampires have an altered appearance, it is notable that it doesn't comment on this regarding ANY of the bloodlines except those of the Cyrodilic line, which it says can appear normal. The fact that it makes this exceptional mention regarding the Cyrodilic line alone would seem to imply that the other lines do not share this property.

The historical fact that the Lamae bloodline drastically reduced in size after the Second Era could be an indication that they did not have an effective means of blending in with society at large, and were zealously hunted after Molag Bal's defeat, but it could also simply be due, in some other more indirect way, to Molag Bal's failure.

While there is ultimately an underdetermination of evidence regarding the Lamae brood, it is clear that ESO is breaking lore with the Lamae vampires anyway, as they should lose or suffer a weakening of their skills during the daylight hours, and grow stronger at night. Appealing to ESO for lore is not a good way to go, in general, because the MMO format is making various lore-breaking concessions (like vampires not being KoS in Morrowind, for example, or, more obviously, giving well over 50% of Dunmer eye-colors other than red).

Your argument that vampires could use Illusion magic to hide their appearance is perfectly lore friendly and possible, but, in my personal opinion, should not be done on the "have your cake and eat it too" grounds. That being said, ultimately I don't have a problem if other players have the option to change appearance simply as a concession to the MMO format and based on Illusion magic. I don't think it can be argued as lore-friendly, though, if not based on Illusion magic. The common sense argument based on the overall weight of the evidence appears to be against a normal appearance for Lamae vampires.

Aoife32001 · September 2014

No I'm sorry, roleplayers are vastly in the minority. You can't even pull a respectable profit off of them in any sense.

Hence why your needs aren't really considered first.

This isn't really a RPing issue. It is a lore issue, and lore, along with a lore-friendly, coherent world, has always been a staple of the ES franchise.

As for the KoS issue, there are ways around that to please both sides. For example, disguises could be used that prevent one from being recognized as a vampire in PvE. This would actually give the vampire more options within the justice system, and options are usually a good thing.

Then again, maybe no one would be happy with this compromise, but a good compromise usually leaves no one happy.

smeeprocketnub19_ESO · September 2014

MornaBaine wrote: »

smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »

Whisper292 wrote: »

Vizier wrote: »

No, I'm just biased toward vampires. I think they gain enough benefit and find it difficult enough to identify them in the heat of combat. I could care less about tattoos and hairstyles.

Besides I really do get off on seeing the pampered vampire community in ZOS frustrated over something.

MercyKilling wrote: »

Furthermore....your wanting a change to vampire appearances DOES affect me. I get no end of pleasure seeing people run around pale and ugly as a price they pay for contracting a disease.

You want to take that pleasure away from me.

How can you guys say stuff like that and believe it's anywhere near a valid argument against the OP's request? Or do you not even care at this point and are just trying to push her buttons?

eNumbra wrote: »

Role-players like you are not a substantial piece of market share.

You wouldn't have stats to back that up, would you? It seems to me that roleplayers do represent a substantial piece of the market share. Go into any inn during the evening, and you'll most likely find a group of roleplayers. There is a huge RP subculture in ESO. I'm not saying we represent the majority of players by any means, but we are a big enough group that we should be heard.

jelliedsoup wrote: »

No its not balancing, your appearance is penance for the skills.

Okay, this may be nitpicking, but your sentence really doesn't make any sense. You don't do penance for being given something. You do penance for committing a sin, and choosing a certain type of character in an MMO is hardly a sin.

No I'm sorry, roleplayers are vastly in the minority. You can't even pull a respectable profit off of them in any sense.

Hence why your needs aren't really considered first.

And again....your stats come from where? Do you, in fact, have any verifiable source for this contention?

Are you still replaying to me after putting me on ignore? What's the point? I could give you legit stats and you wouldn't be able to see it.

But I don't need stats to actually know this, and you are being dense if you are pretending this is not the case. RP'rs are always in the vast minority in any non-rp required game out there. It's a very niche market. Being an RP'r, you should already be aware of this, so I assume you are being intentionally obtuse.

MornaBaine · September 2014

Aoife32001 wrote: »

MornaBaine wrote: »

This is Lamae from the vampire quest. LOOK at her. She ALSO pretty clearly has the ability to NOT look like a disease ravaged vampire. Now the argument has run that she is an actual Daughter of Cold Harbor and therefore has this ability whereas her "children" are somehow inferior (perhaps because their transformation was triggered by bloodfiends) and therefore do not. We also can't float in the air which is also a drag. LOL But it seems odd to me that she would fail to gift her brood with this particular camouflage which would be absolutely vital to their success and longevity. She was certainly ABLE to give it to the Cyrodilic vamps she created. IF my original suggestion is ultimately implemented at some point, it would simply be assumed that this is exactly what she did. If one of my latter two suggestions are implemented then this is explained as simply being a magical illusion crafty vampires have come up with in order to survive. NEITHER breaks with lore.

Lamae's appearance is a strong a priori argument in favor of your position, but it doesn't ultimately resolve the issue on closer examination, and leaves us in the same place with an underdetermination of evidence.

For example, a trait of the lord/matron of the line does not imply that his/her brood would have this trait. Actually, it is clearly stated on USEPWiki that decedents of vampire lords do not necessarily have the benefits of the lord. For example, in some clans, it is possible to kill/cure all of the lord's decedents by killing the lord. Thus, the brood have a derivative existence, in these clans at least, that would make them inferior to the lord.

It is by no means clear that she would be able to give such a gift as a normal appearance to the vampires she created (and she didn't create any Cyrodilic vampires, as that is a separate clan). Everything she has has been given to her by Molag Bal. None of it derives from herself. Granted, it is not explicitly excluded as a possibility either, and the fact that vampires in her line do not merely have their own blood infected, but have it replaced with hers, would argue in your favor.

That being said, and while USEPWiki does not explicitly state that Lamae bloodline vampires have an altered appearance, it is notable that it doesn't comment on this regarding ANY of the bloodlines except those of the Cyrodilic line, which it says can appear normal. The fact that it makes this exceptional mention regarding the Cyrodilic line alone would seem to imply that the other lines do not share this property.

While there is ultimately an underdetermination of evidence regarding the Lamae brood, it is clear that ESO is breaking lore with the Lamae vampires anyway, as they should lose or suffer a weakening of their skills during the daylight hours, and grow stronger at night. Appealing to ESO for lore is not a good way to go, in general, because the MMO format is making various lore-breaking concessions (like vampires being KoS, for example, or, more obviously, giving well over 50% of Dunmer eye-colors other than red).

Your argument that vampires could use Illusion magic to hide their appearance is perfectly lore friendly and possible, but, in my personal opinion, should not be done on the "have your cake and eat it too" grounds. I guess in the end, I don't really care, as I never will be a vampire, but I do enjoy good discussions on lore.

Thank you for an actually thoughtful contribution. While it is certainly true that one cannot use the existing lore to PROVE that the brood of any vampire made by Molag Bal would have all the same abilities (I agree that it is very likely they would not) what my central point is, is that it does not preclude the possibility of some of these abilities being ADDED in a lore-friendly (and non-lore-breaking) way. Now, if all the "Master" Vampires (for lack of a better term) you meet in the game looked like Stages 1 through 4 I would indeed be forced to say, "Well I guess that's just how ya look after being ravaged by Molag Bal. Bummer." But, they don't. They are either imbued with, or have found the means to, recapture their mortal appearance. And THAT opens it up to the POTENTIAL of making it available to players as well. And since so many here have stomped their feet and insisted on a very specific look "because that's how the game wants it, you're an inferior being so you HAVE to be ugly" I can just as easily come back and say, "Really? "I" am one of the legendary 5 Companions. "I" kicked Molag Bal's ARSE, something none of these other NPC vampires were able to do! So who's to say that, as a vampire, I don't ALSO have some of the same abilities as those incredibly old (but clearly weaker than I!) vampires? After all, like EVERY OTHER PLAYER CHARACTER, I am SPECIAL!" LOL

On a more serious note though, yeah my main contention is that it's pretty obvious that stuff like this CAN be added WITHOUT breaking lore so there's really no reason to oppose it out of hand.

Evandus · September 2014

...That being said, and while USEPWiki does not explicitly state that Lamae bloodline vampires have an altered appearance, it is notable that it doesn't comment on this regarding ANY of the bloodlines except those of the Cyrodilic line, which it says can appear normal. The fact that it makes this exceptional mention regarding the Cyrodilic line alone would seem to imply that the other lines do not share this property.

And they don't.

What they gave us for appearances is actually pretty good. And rather tame by comparison to other TES Games (Vampires of The Order excluded).

This is one of my vamps, she looks pretty good I think. In stage 3 no less.

Particularly when compared to

poodlemasterb16_ESO · September 2014

After having a post removed I will say that if this person gets their way I will cure both my vamps.

My main vamp is facerolling Cadwell's Gold.

Varicite · September 2014

Nebthet78 wrote: »

You say it is lore breaking, I say it's not based on the information regarding the lines available on the wiki pages as well as what has been written in the lore books, and what has actually been implemented in the game by ZOS. Just because there is a lore book called Noxiphilic Sanguivoria doesn't automatically mean PC vamps are this line of vampire.

Actually, it does mean that PC vamps are this line of vampire, as are all of the vamps in ESO thus far.

Noxiphilic Sanguivoria's peculiarity is the fact that bearers of this strain do not weaken in sunlight, but instead get stronger at night. This is the only strain that has been described to behave in this manner.

Player characters, as well as NPC vamps, all behave in this manner. Did you actually read the lorebook? < _ <

If you further read the book and compare its descriptions to that of the ESO player character vamp, you will notice that they perfectly coincide w/ one another. No other vampiric strain mentioned in Elder Scrolls lore does.

This is really a pretty simple matter of knowing your lore.

Nebthet78 wrote: »

This, therefore, leaves lots and lots of room for game developers to be able to expand on the vampire lines and abilities which players could take advantage of as the game itself grows and expands over the next couple of years.

While they may further expand vampiric bloodlines in the future, at this point in time, player characters are all of the bloodline discussed above.

Aoife32001 wrote: »

All of that is fine and well, but I don't believe (?) there is anything saying that this NPC belongs to the Lamae strand of vampirism?

Ravenwatch actually tells you in dialogue that he was turned by Molag Bal himself, and thus is a pureblood, and not from Lamae Bal's bloodline whatsoever.

Aoife32001 wrote: »

From UESPWiki:

"Cyrodiil
Only one known tribe exists in Cyrodiil; they are experts of concealment, and their true name has been lost to history. Much like the Imperials, they ousted their competition. Indistinguishable from the living if well-fed, these Cyrodiilic Vampires are cultured and more civilized than vampires of other provinces, using their stealthy abilities to feed on the sleeping and unaware.[4]

You will notice that this is true lore, as it cites a credible source from which it derives its information. Its source is the Manifesto Cyrodiil Vampyrum lorebook, found in Oblivion.

This lorebook also credits dual patrons, Clavicus Vile (from whom the gift of concealment came) and Molag Bal, from whom vampirism originates.

Also mentioned in this lorebook is the Bloodmatron, Lamae Bal.

"To Kin-father Molag Bal, who brought forth the Bloodmatron Lamae to spite Arkay, we owe our existence, as do all vampires, though not all honor Him."

The above description of Cyrodiliic vampires also directly matches what is stated in another lorebook, Immortal Blood, found in Skyrim.

Aoife32001 wrote: »

"Lamae's Bloodline
Lamae Beolfag was the first of her kind but like her successors, she created a bloodline. Vampires of this particular bloodline have Noxiphilic Sanguivoria rather than Porphyric Hemophilia or Sanguinare Vampiris, as a consequence these Vampires do not burn or weaken in sun but rather become more powerful once night falls, they have their own set of abilities as well some shared by other bloodlines such as invisibility.

And you may also notice that this section does not cite any source, as there is no source that states that Noxiphilic Sanguivoria is actually the bloodline of Lamae Bal. There is only one mention of Noxiphilic Sanguivoria in any of the games, and that is a lorebook by the same name found only in ESO.

In fact, there is absolutely no mention of Lamae Bal, or Lamae Beolfag, or the Bloodmatron whatsoever found in this lorebook.

I will also point out that this article about "Lamae's Bloodline" also directly contradicts itself:

It clearly states in the part quoted above that Noxiphilic Sanguivoria is her bloodline, w/out any credible source cited.

Then below:

Aoife32001 wrote: »

The spreading of vampirism among this clan is unique as it requires a blood transference between victim and vampire and then a ritual known as the "Rite of Scion" in which Lamae herself appears and finishes the process. The exact name of this bloodline is unknown but they were extremely common in the second era and were not limited to any particular areas as they could be encountered nearly all over Tamriel."

This direct contradiction also does not cite any credible source, or any source whatsoever.

The entire excerpt about Lamae's Bloodline is clearly a creation of one or more people who have only made assumptions, and have no lore sources w/ which to back up these assumptions.

Now, some may say, "well it's possible that Noxiphilic Sanguivoria is Lamae Bal's bloodline, after all, she does give you her strength during in-game events after you have been drained to the brink."

I will concede that there may be a possibility of this being this case, and concede this point only because in the lorebook Immortal Blood, it mentions that the true name of the Cyrodiliic bloodline has been "lost".

However, this possibility changes very little, as I feel the need to point out that the entirety of the story in Immortal Blood takes place over many months, and each and every meeting takes place at night, although at Movarth's request.

It is also stated very clearly in Immortal Blood that "I haven't fed in seventy-two hours,", and yet this vampire's appearance remains entirely unchanged until he wishes to show his true nature. It's quite obvious that in ESO, the longer you go w/out feeding, the more grotesque you become. Pretty much the exact opposite.

Further proof of this is the fact that Movarth Piquine was, in fact, turned by the author of Immortal Blood (a Cyrodiliic vampire), and appears in-game in Skyrim, near the town of Morthal.

Both he and his entire coven are weak to sunlight, as witnessed by Alva's weakness to Sun Damage in Skyrim. She is a descendant of the Cyrodiliic vampire clan as described in Immortal Blood, obvious by her ability to conceal her vampiric nature.

Also obvious, due to their weakness to sunlight, Cyrodiliic vampires are NOT of the Noxiphilic Sanguivoria bloodline.

Thus, again, player characters who are very obviously of the Noxiphilic variety, due to their immunity to sunlight, are NOT of the Cyrodiliic variety whom are able to hide their appearance.

Also, if you cross-reference the lorebooks Noxiphilic Sanguivoria and Immortal Blood, none of the abilities of Cyrodiliic vampires are mentioned in Noxiphilic, and absolutely nothing about the abilities of Noxiphilic vamps are mentioned in Immortal Blood.

The two seem to be mutually exclusive. If Noxiphilic Sanguivoria is, indeed, the bloodline of Lamae Bal, then the Cyrodiliic vampires cannot possibly be of the same bloodline as her, still making the OP's request break lore.

MornaBaine wrote: »

Another poster has already dealt very well with the question of Lamae. Please at least read the posts by Nebthet78 and you will, hopefully, see where you have gone wrong.

@Nebthet78 was wrong to begin w/. You may want to start doing a bit of research yourself instead of relying on others (who don't have any credible sources backing them up) to do this for you.

All of the information I've stated comes directly from the lorebooks in Elder Scrolls and fairly irrefutable evidence from the Elder Scrolls games, which I've hopefully pointed out clearly, if not concisely (sorry).

@Nebthet78 seems to be taking his information from wiki pages that cite no sources and assumptions made from vague statements made by Lamae Bal in-game, which are more cryptic than definitive.

I can do this all day long, because I know my ES lore very well (and I would have thought that RPers would as well, but I guess not), and I'm 100% certain that what you're asking for breaks it.

You may want to think of a different angle to come from, like the poster who mentioned a new questline involving Clavicus Vile. That would be far more credible than trying to make this imaginary link between ESO player characters and Cyrodiliic vampires, which simply does not exist.

PS) Please learn to use wiki pages correctly. They are a wonderful place for basic information, but you always need to make sure that the material comes from a credible source, as anybody can say pretty much anything about a subject on a wiki page.

That does not make it a fact in the least. : P

MornaBaine · September 2014

Varicite wrote: »

Nebthet78 wrote: »

You say it is lore breaking, I say it's not based on the information regarding the lines available on the wiki pages as well as what has been written in the lore books, and what has actually been implemented in the game by ZOS. Just because there is a lore book called Noxiphilic Sanguivoria doesn't automatically mean PC vamps are this line of vampire.

Actually, it does mean that PC vamps are this line of vampire, as are all of the vamps in ESO thus far.

Noxiphilic Sanguivoria's peculiarity is the fact that bearers of this strain do not weaken in sunlight, but instead get stronger at night. This is the only strain that has been described to behave in this manner.

Player characters, as well as NPC vamps, all behave in this manner. Did you actually read the lorebook? < _ <

If you further read the book and compare its descriptions to that of the ESO player character vamp, you will notice that they perfectly coincide w/ one another. No other vampiric strain mentioned in Elder Scrolls lore does.

This is really a pretty simple matter of knowing your lore.

Nebthet78 wrote: »

This, therefore, leaves lots and lots of room for game developers to be able to expand on the vampire lines and abilities which players could take advantage of as the game itself grows and expands over the next couple of years.

While they may further expand vampiric bloodlines in the future, at this point in time, player characters are all of the bloodline discussed above.

Aoife32001 wrote: »

All of that is fine and well, but I don't believe (?) there is anything saying that this NPC belongs to the Lamae strand of vampirism?

Ravenwatch actually tells you in dialogue that he was turned by Molag Bal himself, and thus is a pureblood, and not from Lamae Bal's bloodline whatsoever.

Aoife32001 wrote: »

From UESPWiki:

"Cyrodiil
Only one known tribe exists in Cyrodiil; they are experts of concealment, and their true name has been lost to history. Much like the Imperials, they ousted their competition. Indistinguishable from the living if well-fed, these Cyrodiilic Vampires are cultured and more civilized than vampires of other provinces, using their stealthy abilities to feed on the sleeping and unaware.[4]

You will notice that this is true lore, as it cites a credible source from which it derives its information. Its source is the Manifesto Cyrodiil Vampyrum lorebook, found in Oblivion.

This lorebook also credits dual patrons, Clavicus Vile (from whom the gift of concealment came) and Molag Bal, from whom vampirism originates.

Also mentioned in this lorebook is the Bloodmatron, Lamae Bal.

"To Kin-father Molag Bal, who brought forth the Bloodmatron Lamae to spite Arkay, we owe our existence, as do all vampires, though not all honor Him."

Aoife32001 wrote: »

"Lamae's Bloodline
Lamae Beolfag was the first of her kind but like her successors, she created a bloodline. Vampires of this particular bloodline have Noxiphilic Sanguivoria rather than Porphyric Hemophilia or Sanguinare Vampiris, as a consequence these Vampires do not burn or weaken in sun but rather become more powerful once night falls, they have their own set of abilities as well some shared by other bloodlines such as invisibility.

And you may also notice that this section does not cite any source, as there is no source that states that Noxiphilic Sanguivoria is actually the bloodline of Lamae Bal. There is only one mention of Noxiphilic Sanguivoria in any of the games, and that is a lorebook by the same name found only in ESO.

In fact, there is absolutely no mention of Lamae Bal, or Lamae Beolfag, or the Bloodmatron whatsoever found in this lorebook.

I will also point out that this article about "Lamae's Bloodline" also directly contradicts itself:

It clearly states in the part quoted above that Noxiphilic Sanguivoria is her bloodline, w/out any credible source cited.

Then below:

Aoife32001 wrote: »

The spreading of vampirism among this clan is unique as it requires a blood transference between victim and vampire and then a ritual known as the "Rite of Scion" in which Lamae herself appears and finishes the process. The exact name of this bloodline is unknown but they were extremely common in the second era and were not limited to any particular areas as they could be encountered nearly all over Tamriel."

This direct contradiction also does not cite any credible source, or any source whatsoever.

The entire excerpt about Lamae's Bloodline is clearly a creation of one or more people who have only made assumptions, and have no lore sources w/ which to back up these assumptions.

Now, some may say, "well it's possible that Noxiphilic Sanguivoria is Lamae Bal's bloodline, after all, she does give you her strength during in-game events after you have been drained to the brink."

I will concede that there may be a possibility of this being this case, and concede this point only because in the lorebook Immortal Blood, it mentions that the true name of the Cyrodiliic bloodline has been "lost".

However, this possibility changes very little, as I feel the need to point out that the entirety of the story in Immortal Blood takes place over many months, and each and every meeting takes place at night, although at Movarth's request.

It is also stated very clearly in Immortal Blood that "I haven't fed in seventy-two hours,", and yet this vampire's appearance remains entirely unchanged until he wishes to show his true nature. It's quite obvious that in ESO, the longer you go w/out feeding, the more grotesque you become. Pretty much the exact opposite.

Further proof of this is the fact that Movarth Piquine was, in fact, turned by the author of Immortal Blood (a Cyrodiliic vampire), and appears in-game in Skyrim, near the town of Morthal.

Both he and his entire coven are weak to sunlight, as witnessed by Alva's weakness to Sun Damage in Skyrim. She is a descendant of the Cyrodiliic vampire clan as described in Immortal Blood, obvious by her ability to conceal her vampiric nature.

Also obvious, due to their weakness to sunlight, Cyrodiliic vampires are NOT of the Noxiphilic Sanguivoria bloodline.

Thus, again, player characters who are very obviously of the Noxiphilic variety, due to their immunity to sunlight, are NOT of the Cyrodiliic variety whom are able to hide their appearance.

Also, if you cross-reference the lorebooks Noxiphilic Sanguivoria and Immortal Blood, none of the abilities of Cyrodiliic vampires are mentioned in Noxiphilic, and absolutely nothing about the abilities of Noxiphilic vamps are mentioned in Immortal Blood.

The two seem to be mutually exclusive. If Noxiphilic Sanguivoria is, indeed, the bloodline of Lamae Bal, then the Cyrodiliic vampires cannot possibly be of the same bloodline as her, still making the OP's request break lore.

MornaBaine wrote: »

Another poster has already dealt very well with the question of Lamae. Please at least read the posts by Nebthet78 and you will, hopefully, see where you have gone wrong.

@Nebthet78 was wrong to begin w/. You may want to start doing a bit of research yourself instead of relying on others (who don't have any credible sources backing them up) to do this for you.

All of the information I've stated comes directly from the lorebooks in Elder Scrolls and fairly irrefutable evidence from the Elder Scrolls games, which I've hopefully pointed out clearly, if not concisely (sorry).

@Nebthet78 seems to be taking his information from wiki pages that cite no sources and assumptions made from vague statements made by Lamae Bal in-game, which are more cryptic than definitive.

I can do this all day long, because I know my ES lore very well (and I would have thought that RPers would as well, but I guess not), and I'm 100% certain that what you're asking for breaks it.

You may want to think of a different angle to come from, like the poster who mentioned a new questline involving Clavicus Vile. That would be far more credible than trying to make this imaginary link between ESO player characters and Cyrodiliic vampires, which simply does not exist.

PS) Please learn to use wiki pages correctly. They are a wonderful place for basic information, but you always need to make sure that the material comes from a credible source, as anybody can say pretty much anything about a subject on a wiki page.

That does not make it a fact in the least. : P

Well done and certainly food for thought. However, none of it means that the additions I've asked for CANNOT be brought in, in such a way that does not break lore. Magical disguises/potions can certainly be used in such a way that would not break lore. It seems logical that vampires WOULD be working hard to find ways to blend among their prey if they were not naturally able to do so. In a world so saturated with magic it is, indeed, almost inevitable. The only question would be as to how difficult ZoS wants to make it to obtain this ability or item. When I say a vampire being able to hide their "true" appearance is not lore breaking because we see NPC vampires that do it, I am not saying that all player vampires are or should be exactly the same as them. What I am saying is that lore shows us that vampires CAN hide their appearance and so it CAN be extended to player vampires in any number of ways that would not break lore. Other stains and their abilities can certainly be brought in via new questlines, maybe even vet level quests since that seems to be where ZoS is placing the bulk of their resources at present. The WAYS to bring this in that do NOT break lore are many and varied. That is my point.

Varicite · September 2014

MornaBaine wrote: »

Well done and certainly food for thought. However, none of it means that the additions I've asked for CANNOT be brought in, in such a way that does not break lore. Magical disguises/potions can certainly be used in such a way that would not break lore. It seems logical that vampires WOULD be working hard to find ways to blend among their prey if they were not naturally able to do so. In a world so saturated with magic it is, indeed, almost inevitable. The only question would be as to how difficult ZoS wants to make it to obtain this ability or item. When I say a vampire being able to hide their "true" appearance is not lore breaking because we see NPC vampires that do it, I am not saying that all player vampires are or should be exactly the same as them. What I am saying is that lore shows us that vampires CAN hide their appearance and so it CAN be extended to player vampires in any number of ways that would not break lore. Other stains and their abilities can certainly be brought in via new questlines, maybe even vet level quests since that seems to be where ZoS is placing the bulk of their resources at present. The WAYS to bring this in that do NOT break lore are many and varied. That is my point.

As I said, I don't take any issue w/ this (other than personally liking the fact that Elder Scrolls is one of the very few franchises that has stuck to its guns when it comes to "grotesque vamps" for player characters) as long as it is done in a lore-friendly manner.

The argument brought up by the OP, however, is just patently false. That's what I took issue w/. : )

smeeprocketnub19_ESO · September 2014

tbh I'm not 100% opposed to disguises. As long as they aren't a 100% fix to the problem.

MornaBaine · September 2014

Varicite wrote: »

MornaBaine wrote: »

Well done and certainly food for thought. However, none of it means that the additions I've asked for CANNOT be brought in, in such a way that does not break lore. Magical disguises/potions can certainly be used in such a way that would not break lore. It seems logical that vampires WOULD be working hard to find ways to blend among their prey if they were not naturally able to do so. In a world so saturated with magic it is, indeed, almost inevitable. The only question would be as to how difficult ZoS wants to make it to obtain this ability or item. When I say a vampire being able to hide their "true" appearance is not lore breaking because we see NPC vampires that do it, I am not saying that all player vampires are or should be exactly the same as them. What I am saying is that lore shows us that vampires CAN hide their appearance and so it CAN be extended to player vampires in any number of ways that would not break lore. Other stains and their abilities can certainly be brought in via new questlines, maybe even vet level quests since that seems to be where ZoS is placing the bulk of their resources at present. The WAYS to bring this in that do NOT break lore are many and varied. That is my point.

As I said, I don't take any issue w/ this (other than personally liking the fact that Elder Scrolls is one of the very few franchises that has stuck to its guns when it comes to "grotesque vamps" for player characters) as long as it is done in a lore-friendly manner.

The argument brought up by the OP, however, is just patently false. That's what I took issue w/. : )

I just re-read my original post and I'm trying to figure out where you get a "lie" out of any of it. What I asked for there is still totally in line with what I've recently posted here. And all I did was point out that there ARE vampires that CAN hide their appearance so since it CAN be done there's no reason why a justifiable way for player vampires to do it as well cannot be found and implemented.

Of course I read my own posts knowing what I INTENDED to convey and will allow that maybe I did not do that as well as I could have. If you thought I was being deliberately misleading I can understand why you would be upset. I hope we can nail it down and come to an understanding.

Varicite · September 2014

MornaBaine wrote: »

I just re-read my original post and I'm trying to figure out where you get a "lie" out of any of it. What I asked for there is still totally in line with what I've recently posted here. And all I did was point out that there ARE vampires that CAN hide their appearance so since it CAN be done there's no reason why a justifiable way for player vampires to do it as well cannot be found and implemented.

Of course I read my own posts knowing what I INTENDED to convey and will allow that maybe I did not do that as well as I could have. If you thought I was being deliberately misleading I can understand why you would be upset. I hope we can nail it down and come to an understanding.

I don't believe that I ever once called you a liar in any fashion.

Only that you posted pictures of a vampire who is able to mask his appearance, but is not of the same bloodline as player characters, and thus player characters would not have the ability to do what Ravenwatch can.

As long as player characters belong to the Noxiphlic strain of vampirism, it would never be a possibility for them to mask their appearance through any sort of vampiric means, according to lore.

As for illusion magic, I don't particularly see a reason why this wouldn't work, but said that if this were a possibility, then why don't all creatures who are reviled by man and mer use this to their advantage, instead of being hunted?

I went on further to mention that it's implicitly stated that only Cyrodiliic vamps can actually hide their appearance, which seems to allude to some kind of limitation in this regard.

Then, of course, there was a long debate about which bloodline actually comes from Lamae Bal, which I happily participated in, as things of this nature interest me. : P

In lore, there are only a few very specific instances of vampires being able to appear "normal", and these are all exclusively either pureblood vampires or Cyrodiliic vampires, neither of which the player characters in ESO belong to.

MornaBaine wrote: »

Lore? Really? Then your argument is destroyed because ES Lore AND ESO Lore BOTH point to vampires being able to disguise their vampirism, as was pointed out (with pictures even for those who find words too hard) in my original post. MY argument is that it is indeed LORE that makes this request make perfect sense.

I believe it was this post that piqued my interest, as "LORE" is the exact reason why this request doesn't make sense so long as player characters in ESO belong to the group Noxiphilic Sanguivoria.

Lore points to vampires who are not you being able to disguise their vampirism.

I'm fairly certain that I also said that I wouldn't doubt ZOS adding something like this in the future, but that I hoped it would be later, rather than sooner.

And if they do so, I would sincerely hope that it is added in a manner that doesn't break the established lore of the ES universe. I'm really so very sick of MMO versions of universes that I enjoy retconning years of lore to appease the playerbase, which may have been why I've been so passionate in this debate.

The Clavicus Vile angle could work. It could actually be entirely possible that vampires of the Noxiphilic variety at some point between the 2nd and 3rd era become "blessed" by Clavicus Vile, and lose their immunity to sunlight in exchange for the ability to hide amongst the populace, thus begetting the Cyrodiliic vampire order who cites Lamae Bal as their Bloodmatron.

A "deal" of this nature would be 100% befitting Vile, who never gives anything for free.

That could be plausible, though it would be a pretty harsh tradeoff in a MMO environment. Perhaps something a little less severe, such as more damage taken during daylight hours.

MornaBaine · September 2014

smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »

tbh I'm not 100% opposed to disguises. As long as they aren't a 100% fix to the problem.

They definitely should NOT be. NOTHING should hide Stage 4. In fact I'd be happiest if they could SUBTLY bring in consequences for Stage 3 regardless of how you may look. I keep remembering that old Skyrim line you'd get from NPCs that was along the lines of, "Don't like them eyes you got. There's a bad hunger in them." People recognized that a vampire was potentially DANGEROUS, even if they didn't understand WHY, and acted accordingly. It should actually be difficult to get NEAR NPCs you can feed on (if they decide to bring that in) at Stage 3. I don't know if ZoS would ever go to the trouble to be that amazingly cool...but it's what I'd really like.

MornaBaine · September 2014

Varicite wrote: »

MornaBaine wrote: »

I just re-read my original post and I'm trying to figure out where you get a "lie" out of any of it. What I asked for there is still totally in line with what I've recently posted here. And all I did was point out that there ARE vampires that CAN hide their appearance so since it CAN be done there's no reason why a justifiable way for player vampires to do it as well cannot be found and implemented.

Of course I read my own posts knowing what I INTENDED to convey and will allow that maybe I did not do that as well as I could have. If you thought I was being deliberately misleading I can understand why you would be upset. I hope we can nail it down and come to an understanding.

I don't believe that I ever once called you a liar in any fashion.

Only that you posted pictures of a vampire who is able to mask his appearance, but is not of the same bloodline as player characters, and thus player characters would not have the ability to do what Ravenwatch can.

As long as player characters belong to the Noxiphlic strain of vampirism, it would never be a possibility for them to mask their appearance through any sort of vampiric means, according to lore.

As for illusion magic, I don't particularly see a reason why this wouldn't work, but said that if this were a possibility, then why don't all creatures who are reviled by man and mer use this to their advantage, instead of being hunted?

I went on further to mention that it's implicitly stated that only Cyrodiliic vamps can actually hide their appearance, which seems to allude to some kind of limitation in this regard.

Then, of course, there was a long debate about which bloodline actually comes from Lamae Bal, which I happily participated in, as things of this nature interest me. : P

In lore, there are only a few very specific instances of vampires being able to appear "normal", and these are all exclusively either pureblood vampires or Cyrodiliic vampires, neither of which the player characters in ESO belong to.

MornaBaine wrote: »

Lore? Really? Then your argument is destroyed because ES Lore AND ESO Lore BOTH point to vampires being able to disguise their vampirism, as was pointed out (with pictures even for those who find words too hard) in my original post. MY argument is that it is indeed LORE that makes this request make perfect sense.

I believe it was this post that piqued my interest, as "LORE" is the exact reason why this request doesn't make sense so long as player characters in ESO belong to the group Noxiphilic Sanguivoria.

Ah so "patently false" and "lie" are not, in fact the same thing. Okay I can gladly concede that. But beyond that I think we're getting confused by the different ways each of us uses "Lore." You are obviously a purist, which I can certainly respect. Further, you obviously KNOW your Lore, so I also respect that. And what you say is true... that vampires of the strain that currently exist in the game cannot, according to lore, change their appearance by any "natural" (for whatever that's worth since we're talking about fictional creatures in a fictional world and mythos! lol) means. I agree. When *I* say Lore supports the idea that vampires CAN change their appearance I mean that there is no reason to say that ZoS cannot bring in lore- appropriate ways for them to do so. Such as introducing new (or old) strains, using illusion magic of some sort, or simply giving players some flexibility with the ways the "disease" manifests. After all, not everyone responds the same way to cancer or HIV. HIV positive is HIV positive but one person might be healthy and show no signs for years and years whereas another may sicken and die fairly quickly. If we approach vampirism as a disease, which it is certainly suggested in the game that we do, then there is nothing to preclude some variation in the various "symptoms" of the disease. Some vampires may progress through the various stages fairly quickly (the current established mechanic) whereas others might be able to stave off the worst effects until such time as they have allowed themselves, through lack of feeding, to reach the truly dangerous stage (Stage 4), which would be represented by being able to extend the appearance of Stage 1 up through Stage 3.

Hopefully we are now closer to understanding one another.

Varicite · September 2014

I believe I do understand where you're coming from, and most likely did before.

It was simply the specifics of turning a player vamp into one that can change appearance that I was really hung up on.

I edited that post you quoted w/ something that I think could work, though that would obviously not be the only way something of that nature could be introduced.

I certainly don't oppose the idea from an "I don't like vamps" or "vamps are OP already" standpoint. : P

I only opposed it on the basis that 1) ZOS' art team could most likely be focusing that attention on something that benefits more players at this crucial time in the game's development, and 2) current in-game lore doesn't support player vamps being able to do something like this.

If you just mean "lore" in a much broader sense, that it could be in the realm of possibility that somehow, someway something like this could be added in a way that doesn't break lore, I can agree w/ that.

MornaBaine · September 2014

Varicite wrote: »

I believe I do understand where you're coming from, and most likely did before.

It was simply the specifics of turning a player vamp into one that can change appearance that I was really hung up on.

I edited that post you quoted w/ something that I think could work, though that would obviously not be the only way something of that nature could be introduced.

I certainly don't oppose the idea from an "I don't like vamps" or "vamps are OP already" standpoint. : P

I only opposed it on the basis that 1) ZOS' art team could most likely be focusing that attention on something that benefits more players at this crucial time in the game's development, and 2) current in-game lore doesn't support player vamps being able to do something like this.

If you just mean "lore" in a much broader sense, that it could be in the realm of possibility that somehow, someway something like this could be added in a way that doesn't break lore, I can agree w/ that.

LOL! Fair enough! And believe me, nowhere did I say, "Do this NOW ZoS or I'm unsubbing!" I know this kind of detail takes time. But if you don't mention it early (and often!) it stands a far smaller chance of ever getting done at all.

jelliedsoup · September 2014

MornaBaine wrote: »

jelliedsoup wrote: »

MornaBaine wrote: »

Excellent question. The way vampires look has no adverse impact on their mechanics. They could advance through all the stages looking exactly the same with absolutely no effect on the shifting stats the various stages confer. Since this is the case I simply do not understand why people like yourself keep insisting that this minor cosmetics issue is some sort of "balancing" when it is nothing of the sort. So I really don't understand why we're having this conversation either since there's absolutely nothing to object about in my request.

No its not balancing, your appearance is penance for the skills.

For example I don't want a charcter to be a khajit, but I like their racial passives the most. What did I do I hear you ask? I didn't choose a khajit. I didn't partition the ESO community because I feel I'm entitled to have my cake and eat it too. Obviously you do, hence the disagreement.

If you really like khajiit passives but don't want to play a kahjiit and truly feel those passives SHOULD be available for other races, you are, of course, perfectly at liberty to petition ZoS for some sort of alteration. I don't play khajiits either so off the top of my head I don't even know what their passives are, but if you could state your case with support from lore that passive X should be available to race Y as well as khajiits then you'd have a reasonable argument that ZoS may or may not choose to act upon. And yes, you'd be flooded with the arse haberdashery crowd on your thread as well no doubt, just as this thread has been. But there'd still be no real reason NOT to make the request.

There's no reason to not make the request and no reason to expect it to be done. So I take a shortcut and not make the request.

Aoife32001 · September 2014

Varicite wrote: »

Nebthet78 wrote: »

You say it is lore breaking, I say it's not based on the information regarding the lines available on the wiki pages as well as what has been written in the lore books, and what has actually been implemented in the game by ZOS. Just because there is a lore book called Noxiphilic Sanguivoria doesn't automatically mean PC vamps are this line of vampire.

Actually, it does mean that PC vamps are this line of vampire, as are all of the vamps in ESO thus far.

Noxiphilic Sanguivoria's peculiarity is the fact that bearers of this strain do not weaken in sunlight, but instead get stronger at night. This is the only strain that has been described to behave in this manner.

Player characters, as well as NPC vamps, all behave in this manner. Did you actually read the lorebook? < _ <

If you further read the book and compare its descriptions to that of the ESO player character vamp, you will notice that they perfectly coincide w/ one another. No other vampiric strain mentioned in Elder Scrolls lore does.

This is really a pretty simple matter of knowing your lore.

Nebthet78 wrote: »

This, therefore, leaves lots and lots of room for game developers to be able to expand on the vampire lines and abilities which players could take advantage of as the game itself grows and expands over the next couple of years.

While they may further expand vampiric bloodlines in the future, at this point in time, player characters are all of the bloodline discussed above.

Aoife32001 wrote: »

All of that is fine and well, but I don't believe (?) there is anything saying that this NPC belongs to the Lamae strand of vampirism?

Ravenwatch actually tells you in dialogue that he was turned by Molag Bal himself, and thus is a pureblood, and not from Lamae Bal's bloodline whatsoever.

Aoife32001 wrote: »

From UESPWiki:

"Cyrodiil
Only one known tribe exists in Cyrodiil; they are experts of concealment, and their true name has been lost to history. Much like the Imperials, they ousted their competition. Indistinguishable from the living if well-fed, these Cyrodiilic Vampires are cultured and more civilized than vampires of other provinces, using their stealthy abilities to feed on the sleeping and unaware.[4]

You will notice that this is true lore, as it cites a credible source from which it derives its information. Its source is the Manifesto Cyrodiil Vampyrum lorebook, found in Oblivion.

This lorebook also credits dual patrons, Clavicus Vile (from whom the gift of concealment came) and Molag Bal, from whom vampirism originates.

Also mentioned in this lorebook is the Bloodmatron, Lamae Bal.

"To Kin-father Molag Bal, who brought forth the Bloodmatron Lamae to spite Arkay, we owe our existence, as do all vampires, though not all honor Him."

The above description of Cyrodiliic vampires also directly matches what is stated in another lorebook, Immortal Blood, found in Skyrim.

Aoife32001 wrote: »

"Lamae's Bloodline
Lamae Beolfag was the first of her kind but like her successors, she created a bloodline. Vampires of this particular bloodline have Noxiphilic Sanguivoria rather than Porphyric Hemophilia or Sanguinare Vampiris, as a consequence these Vampires do not burn or weaken in sun but rather become more powerful once night falls, they have their own set of abilities as well some shared by other bloodlines such as invisibility.

And you may also notice that this section does not cite any source, as there is no source that states that Noxiphilic Sanguivoria is actually the bloodline of Lamae Bal. There is only one mention of Noxiphilic Sanguivoria in any of the games, and that is a lorebook by the same name found only in ESO.

In fact, there is absolutely no mention of Lamae Bal, or Lamae Beolfag, or the Bloodmatron whatsoever found in this lorebook.

I will also point out that this article about "Lamae's Bloodline" also directly contradicts itself:

It clearly states in the part quoted above that Noxiphilic Sanguivoria is her bloodline, w/out any credible source cited.

Then below:

Aoife32001 wrote: »

The spreading of vampirism among this clan is unique as it requires a blood transference between victim and vampire and then a ritual known as the "Rite of Scion" in which Lamae herself appears and finishes the process. The exact name of this bloodline is unknown but they were extremely common in the second era and were not limited to any particular areas as they could be encountered nearly all over Tamriel."

This direct contradiction also does not cite any credible source, or any source whatsoever.

The entire excerpt about Lamae's Bloodline is clearly a creation of one or more people who have only made assumptions, and have no lore sources w/ which to back up these assumptions.

Now, some may say, "well it's possible that Noxiphilic Sanguivoria is Lamae Bal's bloodline, after all, she does give you her strength during in-game events after you have been drained to the brink."

I will concede that there may be a possibility of this being this case, and concede this point only because in the lorebook Immortal Blood, it mentions that the true name of the Cyrodiliic bloodline has been "lost".

However, this possibility changes very little, as I feel the need to point out that the entirety of the story in Immortal Blood takes place over many months, and each and every meeting takes place at night, although at Movarth's request.

It is also stated very clearly in Immortal Blood that "I haven't fed in seventy-two hours,", and yet this vampire's appearance remains entirely unchanged until he wishes to show his true nature. It's quite obvious that in ESO, the longer you go w/out feeding, the more grotesque you become. Pretty much the exact opposite.

Further proof of this is the fact that Movarth Piquine was, in fact, turned by the author of Immortal Blood (a Cyrodiliic vampire), and appears in-game in Skyrim, near the town of Morthal.

Both he and his entire coven are weak to sunlight, as witnessed by Alva's weakness to Sun Damage in Skyrim. She is a descendant of the Cyrodiliic vampire clan as described in Immortal Blood, obvious by her ability to conceal her vampiric nature.

Also obvious, due to their weakness to sunlight, Cyrodiliic vampires are NOT of the Noxiphilic Sanguivoria bloodline.

Thus, again, player characters who are very obviously of the Noxiphilic variety, due to their immunity to sunlight, are NOT of the Cyrodiliic variety whom are able to hide their appearance.

Also, if you cross-reference the lorebooks Noxiphilic Sanguivoria and Immortal Blood, none of the abilities of Cyrodiliic vampires are mentioned in Noxiphilic, and absolutely nothing about the abilities of Noxiphilic vamps are mentioned in Immortal Blood.

The two seem to be mutually exclusive. If Noxiphilic Sanguivoria is, indeed, the bloodline of Lamae Bal, then the Cyrodiliic vampires cannot possibly be of the same bloodline as her, still making the OP's request break lore.

MornaBaine wrote: »

Another poster has already dealt very well with the question of Lamae. Please at least read the posts by Nebthet78 and you will, hopefully, see where you have gone wrong.

@Nebthet78 was wrong to begin w/. You may want to start doing a bit of research yourself instead of relying on others (who don't have any credible sources backing them up) to do this for you.

All of the information I've stated comes directly from the lorebooks in Elder Scrolls and fairly irrefutable evidence from the Elder Scrolls games, which I've hopefully pointed out clearly, if not concisely (sorry).

@Nebthet78 seems to be taking his information from wiki pages that cite no sources and assumptions made from vague statements made by Lamae Bal in-game, which are more cryptic than definitive.

I can do this all day long, because I know my ES lore very well (and I would have thought that RPers would as well, but I guess not), and I'm 100% certain that what you're asking for breaks it.

You may want to think of a different angle to come from, like the poster who mentioned a new questline involving Clavicus Vile. That would be far more credible than trying to make this imaginary link between ESO player characters and Cyrodiliic vampires, which simply does not exist.

PS) Please learn to use wiki pages correctly. They are a wonderful place for basic information, but you always need to make sure that the material comes from a credible source, as anybody can say pretty much anything about a subject on a wiki page.

That does not make it a fact in the least. : P

Well done sir. This was what I was trying to get at, though my reliance on the Wiki was clearly shoddy. Thank you for a well-researched, sourced, and argued post.

Nebthet78 · September 2014

Varicite wrote: »

@Nebthet78 was wrong to begin w/. You may want to start doing a bit of research yourself instead of relying on others (who don't have any credible sources backing them up) to do this for you. (Same can be said for you Varicite)

All of the information I've stated comes directly from the lorebooks in Elder Scrolls and fairly irrefutable evidence from the Elder Scrolls games, which I've hopefully pointed out clearly, if not concisely (sorry).

@Nebthet78 seems to be taking his information from wiki pages that cite no sources and assumptions made from vague statements made by Lamae Bal in-game, which are more cryptic than definitive.

I can do this all day long, because I know my ES lore very well (and I would have thought that RPers would as well, but I guess not), and I'm 100% certain that what you're asking for breaks it.

You may want to think of a different angle to come from, like the poster who mentioned a new questline involving Clavicus Vile. That would be far more credible than trying to make this imaginary link between ESO player characters and Cyrodiliic vampires, which simply does not exist.

PS) Please learn to use wiki pages correctly. They are a wonderful place for basic information, but you always need to make sure that the material comes from a credible source, as anybody can say pretty much anything about a subject on a wiki page.

That does not make it a fact in the least. : P

Again, it is going to be Potato, Potatoe... Lore supports both arguments and yes I did read the Lorebook. It doesn't exactly describe PC vampires to a tea. It is all about interpretation mixed with actual in-game dialogue and actions you have to go through in the vampire questline.

The whole not being weak to daylight thing, can't be used very well as a supporting argument due to the fact that as an MMO, you can't force a large player base to sit idle in a darkened area for more than half the game's 24 hr cycle, or play only when it is night in the game. If this were a single player, your argument would have much more weight. But, that very mechanic of the game has to be taken into consideration when referring to lore, which again, is subject to interpretation as all ES games have evolved and changed based on players wants and needs over the years.

So I am sorry, you can say I am wrong all you want, but I have just as much evidence to prove my point as you do from just as valid sources.

You also seem to state that I am taking my points from various wiki pages without citing sources. Here you go. I use the main Elder Scrolls Wiki, which sites sources, including the Lorebooks, AND game dialogues themselves, which is absolutely no different than what you are using to back up your stance. :P

http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Lamae_Beolfag
http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Cyrodiil_Vampyrum
http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Opusculus_Lamae_Bal
http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Vampire_Lord
http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Daughters_of_Coldharbour
http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Volkihar_Clan_(Lore)
http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Factions_(Daggerfall)
http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Vampire_(Morrowind)
http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Immortal_Blood
http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Vampire_(Skyrim)
http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Vampires_of_the_Iliac_Bay
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/64587/vampire-guide-everything-you-need-to-know-zos-please-read-the-cured-section/p1

Again, there is no reason what so ever for the OP's request not to be considered. Heck, there is a HUGE opportunity here for ZOS to greatly expand the vampire lines in ESO and allow PCs to evolve their characters based on what Clan they wish to specialize in. The Lore Book Vampires of the Iliac Bay itsself states there are over a hundred distinct kinds of vampires in Tamriel, and goes on to state there are 9 main clans found in Daggerfall. They each have additional perks and weaknesses, like the Vraseth you cannot fast travel during day light (boy would that p*ss a lot of players off).

There are 9 Vampire clans in Daggerfall:
Anthotis
Garlythi
Haarvenu
Khulari
Lyrezi
Montalion
Selenu
Thrafey
Vraseth
Glenmoril Witches which live in Breton cities are also considered Vampires.

There are 3 major clans/bloodlines in Morrowind:
Clan Aundae
Clan Berne
Clan Quarra

4 known lines in Valenwood:
Bonsamu
Keerilth
Yekef
Telboth

Skyrim has 1 main clan:
Volkihar

Cyrodiil also has only one clan by the 3rd Era after they defeated all other clans in the area.

Blackmarsh have the Whet-Fang. Any other major clans have not been discovered or developed by Bethesda or ZOS at this time.

Elswyr has no known major vampire clans having been developed by Bethesday or ZOS at this time.

Summerset Isles no known major vampire clans have been developed by Bethesda nor ZOS at this time.

Again, a good portion of the clans have the ability to blend into society. There are a few that don't. The Bonsamu of Valenwood look like normal Bosmer until seen in candle light.

So again, there really is no reason a glamour skill cannot be earned. The funny thing about lore, is that it can be rewritten and expanded upon. It does contradict itsself from one game to another, as we have already seen with ESO not adhering to the lore of the other single player games.
You want an MMO well then concessions HAVE to be made on the lore in order for the game to expand and remain dynamic.

Actually I am really glad we have had this back and forth, because it has resulted in my own idea coming to fruition which I am going to give as feedback for developers. Something which, may greatly level the PVP aspect of this game, greatly deepen immersion and at the same time, get more people involved in at least some small aspect in PVP.

A good deal of people are bitching and moaning about the number of vampire players dominating the PVP zone, therefore lets set up some quests and make a reason for vampires to take down other vampires in this game.

Not only that, but as this game continues to grow and new zones are added, do you really think that the majority of people are going to be happy slogging away at quests and grinding with the same skills and gear they went through level 1-50, then vet 1-12-14 with? No.. they are going to want their class to also grow, gain new skills, and be able to change as they continue to play the game, otherwise what is the point? There is no fun in grinding just to get to the max level.

So again, the only real reason I am seeing as to why others don't like this idea is because they hate the fact PVP is riddled with vampire players and they feel that being able to spot their neon white glow from afar gives them an advantage against them in that zone, and they don't want that taken away, because god forbid they might actually have to learn how to play defensively.

Varicite · September 2014

I wonder if you could point out any of those lore references that states, or even alludes to, vampires of the Noxiphilic variety being able to either use calming spells like the Bonsamu to "fool" others into thinking they are not vampires, or outright being able to mask their appearance like Cyrodiliic vamps are able to.

It is 100% transparent that the player character's vampiric strain is Noxiphilic Sanguivoria. You'll need a source that states this strain of vampire is capable of disguising itself.

Barring that, you'll need to find a source that states that other strains of vampire are immune to sunlight damage, which might allude to the player character even possibly being of another strain.

Nothing you posted confirms either of those points, unfortunately. : /

As you mentioned, we are drawing from the same sources here (lorebooks and mechanics from previous games), and I don't know of any of those sources that back up this quote either:

Nebthet78 wrote: »

This tells me, without a shadow of a doubt that the strain of Vampirism came directly from Lamae Bal, and as such would be considered pure-blooded.

Receiving blood from a pureblood does not, in fact, make you a pureblood. This is evidenced by pretty much every ES game's lesser vampires who belong to Master vampires. Even Master vampires are very rarely purebloods (Movarth in Skyrim is also a Master vampire, and obviously not a pureblood).

Obviously, this is not the case. Purebloods receive their gift directly from Molag Bal. This is what makes their blood pure.

Nebthet78 wrote: »

This also tells me that since Kin are able to hide themselves among the mortal mass, to even RULE them, they have an ability to appear normal which our player characters don't have.

I'd also like you to point out any of those sources that will back up this claim, as well.

Nebthet78 wrote: »

Additionally, I have not seen any where in this game that states you have contracted "Noxiphilic" Sanguivoria. Nothing!

This is more a case of deductive reasoning, I would say. There has been only one strain of vampirism mentioned that has no weakness to sunlight.

The player character's strain of vampirism has no weakness to sunlight.

The player character must be infected w/ Noxiphilic Sanguivoria, by simple logic, no?

Can it possibly be any other way, if there is only one strain of vampirism that has the unique ability that the player character has?

This was my main point of contention w/ your post, as I find this argument to be extremely reaching in light of the facts.

Nebthet78 wrote: »

Again, it is going to be Potato, Potatoe... Lore supports both arguments and yes I did read the Lorebook. It doesn't exactly describe PC vampires to a tea.

It actually does. It describes most of the characteristics of the player character vamp almost exactly. And even if it didn't, it describes the single characteristic that the player character vampire has that not been ascribed to any other strain of vampire in the ES universe: light immunity.

Nebthet78 wrote: »

The whole not being weak to daylight thing, can't be used very well as a supporting argument due to the fact that as an MMO, you can't force a large player base to sit idle in a darkened area for more than half the game's 24 hr cycle, or play only when it is night in the game. If this were a single player, your argument would have much more weight. But, that very mechanic of the game has to be taken into consideration when referring to lore, which again, is subject to interpretation as all ES games have evolved and changed based on players wants and needs over the years.

It can be used as a supporting argument because ZOS took this very thing into account when creating the player character's strain of vampirism and making it immune to sun damage, thus completely negating the issue that you mentioned.

The fact that ZOS had to create a new strain of vampirism for player characters that differs from all of the others in this regard is fairly strong evidence that the player character is, after all, a vampire of the Noxiphilic variety.

Nebthet78 wrote: »

So I am sorry, you can say I am wrong all you want, but I have just as much evidence to prove my point as you do from just as valid sources.

And if you honestly believe this, I invite you to point out sources that reinforce any of the specifics that I've mentioned above. : )

Nebthet78 wrote: »

Again, a good portion of the clans have the ability to blend into society.

I also invite you to point to any of the sources that reinforces this statement. As far as I know, fully hiding one's appearance is a trait exclusive to the Cyrodiliic bloodline, and Bonsamu, whom I don't really count as their true identity is revealed by light, which is pretty darn plentiful. I presume the excerpt mentions "candlelight" because, y'know, they are also hurt by daylight like all of the other vamps, and you don't need a candle at that point.

You see, you did quite a fantastic job of listing the clans and also linking from the wiki, but absolutely nothing that you happened to link actually refutes any of my claims, which are simply:

Player characters are unequivocally vampires of the Noxiphilic variety, and as such, do not have the ability to mask their appearance.

Some vampires can do this, but they are invariably purebloods (which you are not) or Cyrodiliic vamps (which you also are not). Bonsamu aside, as I don't really count them, but I suppose I could also go ahead and say... you aren't a Bonsamu either. : P

Again, I don't have any issue w/ this sort of cosmetic change being introduced eventually, but I do take issue w/ a few of the lore points you've made which are, indeed, wrong.

Completely off-topic: I'm actually glad that you reminded me of the Bosmeri vampires, because that reminded me of the Coldharbour quest... I have been under the assumption that these vamps are also of the Bonsamu variety, though there's no real way to tell, hehe. I do like to imagine that, though! : D

Nebthet78 · September 2014

If you can't read from the list of sources I posted from the wiki that, in turn list sources as you go through... then that's not my problem. I put them in my prior post. I am not gonna hand-hold you to where I am getting my info.

Perhaps what needs to be done is for Loremaster Lawrence to be sent an email and when he has time, see if there is a possibility of any clarification being given on the strains of vampirism in Tamirel in the 2nd Era based on previous lore, and actual happens in game with Blood-Matron Lamae Bal.

But I am not going to continue arguing the same S**t over and over again. I think I am right, you think you are right. I am not willing to change my stance, and neither are you.

Therefore the only thing we agree on is the fact that we disagree with the others viewpoint. Period.

MornaBaine · September 2014

Nebthet78 wrote: »

I

Perhaps what needs to be done is for Loremaster Lawrence to be sent an email and when he has time, see if there is a possibility of any clarification being given on the strains of vampirism in Tamirel in the 2nd Era based on previous lore, and actual happens in game with Blood-Matron Lamae Bal.

IS there an email for Loremaster Lawrence? If so, where might I find it? Thank you.

Nebthet78 · September 2014

MornaBaine wrote: »

Nebthet78 wrote: »

I

Perhaps what needs to be done is for Loremaster Lawrence to be sent an email and when he has time, see if there is a possibility of any clarification being given on the strains of vampirism in Tamirel in the 2nd Era based on previous lore, and actual happens in game with Blood-Matron Lamae Bal.

IS there an email for Loremaster Lawrence? If so, where might I find it? Thank you.

I'll PM you

Vizier · September 2014

MornaBaine wrote: »

DagothMacellarius wrote: »

Like has been said before, your vampire appearance Doesn't mean anything lore wise in ESO. If it meant something stage 4 would be KoS. If ZoS decides to continue lore breaking and not have city guards KoS us then they should give the face change option to vampires. It is dumb that you can stand in town looking like a zombie/vampire and no Npcs or guards care. So the real solution in my opinion is when crime system launches you either get bounties for being a Vampire/ KoS while in towns or they give vampires the appearance change choices if they decide to not make us targets for death. I think both would be nice but I will sacrifice the option to change appearance if us vampires become the immortal outcasts we are. Like a post I had before, they should make vampire houses like Ravenwatch and the ones in Eastmarch and so on as places for us vampires to repair and do business. All in all I agree on vampires getting appearance choices at the moment because our appearance has pretty much no effect like it should in ES games. If you played oblivion and Skyrim the max stage was kill on sight by guards. They added the non KoS in Dawnguard DLC and changed it to gargoyle form is KoS.

So what do you think of the idea, as requested, that the appearance changes ONLY apply to Stages 1 through 3? Any alteration goes away at Stage 4, the "monster" is revealed and, HOPEFULLY, the upcoming justice system DOES make Stage 4 vampires KOS to city guards? I also hope the justice system will allow vampires to feed on Townie NPCs but, if "caught"/observed by another player, they become flagged for PvP/incur a bounty. There DOES need to be a chance to get away with feeding on Townies but it really does need to be risky. Your thoughts on that?

I would totally support that. Similar to a previous suggestion of mine and despite our contention these past days you get a +1 agree on this.

MornaBaine · September 2014

Vizier wrote: »

MornaBaine wrote: »

DagothMacellarius wrote: »

Like has been said before, your vampire appearance Doesn't mean anything lore wise in ESO. If it meant something stage 4 would be KoS. If ZoS decides to continue lore breaking and not have city guards KoS us then they should give the face change option to vampires. It is dumb that you can stand in town looking like a zombie/vampire and no Npcs or guards care. So the real solution in my opinion is when crime system launches you either get bounties for being a Vampire/ KoS while in towns or they give vampires the appearance change choices if they decide to not make us targets for death. I think both would be nice but I will sacrifice the option to change appearance if us vampires become the immortal outcasts we are. Like a post I had before, they should make vampire houses like Ravenwatch and the ones in Eastmarch and so on as places for us vampires to repair and do business. All in all I agree on vampires getting appearance choices at the moment because our appearance has pretty much no effect like it should in ES games. If you played oblivion and Skyrim the max stage was kill on sight by guards. They added the non KoS in Dawnguard DLC and changed it to gargoyle form is KoS.

So what do you think of the idea, as requested, that the appearance changes ONLY apply to Stages 1 through 3? Any alteration goes away at Stage 4, the "monster" is revealed and, HOPEFULLY, the upcoming justice system DOES make Stage 4 vampires KOS to city guards? I also hope the justice system will allow vampires to feed on Townie NPCs but, if "caught"/observed by another player, they become flagged for PvP/incur a bounty. There DOES need to be a chance to get away with feeding on Townies but it really does need to be risky. Your thoughts on that?

I would totally support that. Similar to a previous suggestion of mine and despite our contention these past days you get a +1 agree on this.

Appreciate it. I think a misunderstanding has arisen with a lot of folk because they read this and think it's just that I (and others) want to play vampires with no penalty. Not true. If anything, I want it to be MORE difficult to play a vampire! LOL The benefits should be amazing but the balancing downsides should actually require you to go out of your way to mitigate them. Hell I'd be happy if we took damage in the sunlight, provided they changed it so that nighttime was equal in length to daytime. If I'm playing a vampire I want it to FEEL like I'm playing a vampire...not just an exceptionally ugly regular character. This means I should be able to hunt among the non-hostile NPC population and risk bad things happening if I get caught, that I should HAVE to try to avoid becoming my most bestial, and that the game itself should recognize me as a vampire in ways that make sense and accord with already established lore. What I've asked for here is actually for 2 reasons. One, of course, is so that I don't have to constantly keep hating how my character looks. But the other is actually because it provides more varied and interesting ways to play my character and can actually add, rather than subtract, depth and immersion.

Varicite · September 2014

Nebthet78 wrote: »

If you can't read from the list of sources I posted from the wiki that, in turn list sources as you go through... then that's not my problem. I put them in my prior post. I am not gonna hand-hold you to where I am getting my info.

You won't "hand hold" because nothing you posted actually confirms any of the points that you tried to make. I asked you to point them out so that you could see that these sources do not exist.

It's really that simple. I already know this to be the case.

You just made a bunch of questionable statements, posted some links to wikis that don't have anything to back up those statements, and now you're backpedaling.

Not really much point to debating anything w/ you at this point, unless you can actually prove anything that you say.

Did someone teach you that debating involves making nonsensical statements, dropping a bunch of completely unrelated material on the table, and then calling it a day?

Because they were wrong... : P

FreedomDude · September 2014

This a long read!

MornaBaine wrote: »

This is Lamae from the vampire quest. LOOK at her. She ALSO pretty clearly has the ability to NOT look like a disease ravaged vampire. Now the argument has run that she is an actual Daughter of Cold Harbor and therefore has this ability whereas her "children" are somehow inferior (perhaps because their transformation was triggered by bloodfiends) and therefore do not. We also can't float in the air which is also a drag. LOL But it seems odd to me that she would fail to gift her brood with this particular camouflage which would be absolutely vital to their success and longevity. She was certainly ABLE to give it to the Cyrodilic vamps she created. IF my original suggestion is ultimately implemented at some point, it would simply be assumed that this is exactly what she did. If one of my latter two suggestions are implemented then this is explained as simply being a magical illusion crafty vampires have come up with in order to survive. NEITHER breaks with lore.

Lamae is the first vampire and a Daughter of Coldharbour notice how other pure blooded vampires lack ugly faces?

Harkon, a pure blooded vampire and leader of the Volkihar Vampire clan:

The Cyrodilic vampires have nothing to with Lamae.

Other info:

Lamae's Bloodline

Lamae Beolfag was the first of her kind but like her successors, she created a bloodline. Vampires of this particular bloodline have Noxiphilic Sanguivoria rather than Porphyric Hemophilia or Sanguinare Vampiris, as a consequence these Vampires do not burn or weaken in sun but rather become more powerful once night falls, they have their own set of abilities as well some shared by other bloodlines such as invisibility. The spreading of vampirism among this clan is unique as it requires a blood transference between victim and vampire and then a ritual known as the "Rite of Scion" in which Lamae herself appears and finishes the process. The exact name of this bloodline is unknown but they were extremely common in the second era and were not limited to any particular areas as they could be encountered nearly all over Tamriel.

Cyrodiil

Only one known tribe exists in Cyrodiil; they are experts of concealment, and their true name has been lost to history. Much like the Imperials, they ousted their competition. Indistinguishable from the living if well-fed, these Cyrodiilic Vampires are cultured and more civilized than vampires of other provinces, using their stealthy abilities to feed on the sleeping and unaware. Calling themselves the Order, these vampires follow the Daedric Prince "Kin-father" Molag Bal, like many other vampires, but they also consider Clavicus Vile their patron. Members are bound never to reveal themselves or the Order, and to procure power, stature, and wealth whenever possible.

Morrowind

The Dunmer are strongly opposed to any form of necromancy, thus vampires are largely unknown in their land of Morrowind. The Tribunal Temple has some control over the public knowledge of vampires, but cannot keep it completely unknown. In the past, Ordinators and Buoyant Armigers were in charge of eradicating vampires, leading to their supposed extinction. Thus, the hunting orders that exist in the western Tamriel are unknown.
The vampires of Morrowind are typically in one of three bloodlines, which differ in accordance to their "approach to prey". The Quarra are aggressive and fierce when it comes to hunting, while the Berne clan prefer a stealthier approach. The Aundae bloodline consist of vampiric mages, who use the dark powers associated with vampirism to entrap prey. These vampires not only have their own strongholds, but are also dispersed amongst the Daedric shrines and abandoned Dunmer and Dwemer strongholds. Ironically, these clans show great hostility to new-born vampires, considering them abominations as their living counterparts do.
In the Red Mountain, the Ash Vampire was an immortal magical being of vast power. They were close kin and loyal lieutenants of Dagoth Ur, and thus partook of his supernatural vitality, but they were not related to true vampires - in fact, they are not even undead. Near the end of the Third Era, the number of vampires began to rise in Morrowind, leading to renewed calls to exterminate them.

Skyrim

The Volkihar vampires of eastern Skyrim live under haunted, frozen lakes and only leave their dens to feed. They have the power to freeze their victims with icy breath, and can reach through the ice of their frozen lake dens without breaking it. They are the earliest known vampire coven in Tamriel. The Volkihar vampires are relatively similar in appearance to those of Cyrodiil and they share some similar powers such as night vision, the ability to turn invisible and the ability to seduce others. Certain Volkihar vampires however appear more monstrous than their Cyrodiilic counterparts- some of them have large brow ridges, slits running through their lips, and bat-like noses, and they have powers which aren't shared by the vampires of Cyrodiil—they can reanimate dead bodies and do not burn when in sunlight (although they are weakened by it). The Volkihar have been known to employ Death Hounds as guardians.
Some of the more ancient Volkihar vampires such as those of the court at Castle Volkihar are pure-blooded and can even transform themselves into a more monstrous form: the large, winged Vampire Lords which were blessed by Molag Bal himself. This gift grants further powers such as the ability to summon gargoyles. It is said that Potema, the Wolf Queen, relied upon vampiric generals in the latter days of the War of the Red Diamond.

Now we should all have a great understanding on vampirism present in this game world! XD

MornaBaine · September 2014

FreedomDude wrote: »

This a long read!

MornaBaine wrote: »

This is Lamae from the vampire quest. LOOK at her. She ALSO pretty clearly has the ability to NOT look like a disease ravaged vampire. Now the argument has run that she is an actual Daughter of Cold Harbor and therefore has this ability whereas her "children" are somehow inferior (perhaps because their transformation was triggered by bloodfiends) and therefore do not. We also can't float in the air which is also a drag. LOL But it seems odd to me that she would fail to gift her brood with this particular camouflage which would be absolutely vital to their success and longevity. She was certainly ABLE to give it to the Cyrodilic vamps she created. IF my original suggestion is ultimately implemented at some point, it would simply be assumed that this is exactly what she did. If one of my latter two suggestions are implemented then this is explained as simply being a magical illusion crafty vampires have come up with in order to survive. NEITHER breaks with lore.

Lamae is the first vampire and a Daughter of Coldharbour notice how other pure blooded vampires lack ugly faces?

Harkon, a pure blooded vampire and leader of the Volkihar Vampire clan:

The Cyrodilic vampires have nothing to with Lamae.

Other info:

Lamae's Bloodline

Lamae Beolfag was the first of her kind but like her successors, she created a bloodline. Vampires of this particular bloodline have Noxiphilic Sanguivoria rather than Porphyric Hemophilia or Sanguinare Vampiris, as a consequence these Vampires do not burn or weaken in sun but rather become more powerful once night falls, they have their own set of abilities as well some shared by other bloodlines such as invisibility. The spreading of vampirism among this clan is unique as it requires a blood transference between victim and vampire and then a ritual known as the "Rite of Scion" in which Lamae herself appears and finishes the process. The exact name of this bloodline is unknown but they were extremely common in the second era and were not limited to any particular areas as they could be encountered nearly all over Tamriel.

Cyrodiil

Only one known tribe exists in Cyrodiil; they are experts of concealment, and their true name has been lost to history. Much like the Imperials, they ousted their competition. Indistinguishable from the living if well-fed, these Cyrodiilic Vampires are cultured and more civilized than vampires of other provinces, using their stealthy abilities to feed on the sleeping and unaware. Calling themselves the Order, these vampires follow the Daedric Prince "Kin-father" Molag Bal, like many other vampires, but they also consider Clavicus Vile their patron. Members are bound never to reveal themselves or the Order, and to procure power, stature, and wealth whenever possible.

Morrowind

The Dunmer are strongly opposed to any form of necromancy, thus vampires are largely unknown in their land of Morrowind. The Tribunal Temple has some control over the public knowledge of vampires, but cannot keep it completely unknown. In the past, Ordinators and Buoyant Armigers were in charge of eradicating vampires, leading to their supposed extinction. Thus, the hunting orders that exist in the western Tamriel are unknown.
The vampires of Morrowind are typically in one of three bloodlines, which differ in accordance to their "approach to prey". The Quarra are aggressive and fierce when it comes to hunting, while the Berne clan prefer a stealthier approach. The Aundae bloodline consist of vampiric mages, who use the dark powers associated with vampirism to entrap prey. These vampires not only have their own strongholds, but are also dispersed amongst the Daedric shrines and abandoned Dunmer and Dwemer strongholds. Ironically, these clans show great hostility to new-born vampires, considering them abominations as their living counterparts do.
In the Red Mountain, the Ash Vampire was an immortal magical being of vast power. They were close kin and loyal lieutenants of Dagoth Ur, and thus partook of his supernatural vitality, but they were not related to true vampires - in fact, they are not even undead. Near the end of the Third Era, the number of vampires began to rise in Morrowind, leading to renewed calls to exterminate them.

Skyrim

The Volkihar vampires of eastern Skyrim live under haunted, frozen lakes and only leave their dens to feed. They have the power to freeze their victims with icy breath, and can reach through the ice of their frozen lake dens without breaking it. They are the earliest known vampire coven in Tamriel. The Volkihar vampires are relatively similar in appearance to those of Cyrodiil and they share some similar powers such as night vision, the ability to turn invisible and the ability to seduce others. Certain Volkihar vampires however appear more monstrous than their Cyrodiilic counterparts- some of them have large brow ridges, slits running through their lips, and bat-like noses, and they have powers which aren't shared by the vampires of Cyrodiil—they can reanimate dead bodies and do not burn when in sunlight (although they are weakened by it). The Volkihar have been known to employ Death Hounds as guardians.
Some of the more ancient Volkihar vampires such as those of the court at Castle Volkihar are pure-blooded and can even transform themselves into a more monstrous form: the large, winged Vampire Lords which were blessed by Molag Bal himself. This gift grants further powers such as the ability to summon gargoyles. It is said that Potema, the Wolf Queen, relied upon vampiric generals in the latter days of the War of the Red Diamond.

Now we should all have a great understanding on vampirism present in this game world! XD

I think the misunderstanding here is simply this; I am not saying that because the vampires I show as examples can mask their appearance this automatically means that ALL vampires can, according to lore, do so. What I AM saying is that these vampires DO show that it is not outside the realm of possibility for player vampires to be able to mask their vampirism. My contention is simply that there ARE lore-friendly ways to introduce the ability, quite a few of them in fact.

Varicite · September 2014

FreedomDude wrote: »

This a long read!

MornaBaine wrote: »

This is Lamae from the vampire quest. LOOK at her. She ALSO pretty clearly has the ability to NOT look like a disease ravaged vampire. Now the argument has run that she is an actual Daughter of Cold Harbor and therefore has this ability whereas her "children" are somehow inferior (perhaps because their transformation was triggered by bloodfiends) and therefore do not. We also can't float in the air which is also a drag. LOL But it seems odd to me that she would fail to gift her brood with this particular camouflage which would be absolutely vital to their success and longevity. She was certainly ABLE to give it to the Cyrodilic vamps she created. IF my original suggestion is ultimately implemented at some point, it would simply be assumed that this is exactly what she did. If one of my latter two suggestions are implemented then this is explained as simply being a magical illusion crafty vampires have come up with in order to survive. NEITHER breaks with lore.

Lamae is the first vampire and a Daughter of Coldharbour notice how other pure blooded vampires lack ugly faces?

Harkon, a pure blooded vampire and leader of the Volkihar Vampire clan:

The Cyrodilic vampires have nothing to with Lamae.

Other info:

Lamae's Bloodline

Lamae Beolfag was the first of her kind but like her successors, she created a bloodline. Vampires of this particular bloodline have Noxiphilic Sanguivoria rather than Porphyric Hemophilia or Sanguinare Vampiris, as a consequence these Vampires do not burn or weaken in sun but rather become more powerful once night falls, they have their own set of abilities as well some shared by other bloodlines such as invisibility. The spreading of vampirism among this clan is unique as it requires a blood transference between victim and vampire and then a ritual known as the "Rite of Scion" in which Lamae herself appears and finishes the process. The exact name of this bloodline is unknown but they were extremely common in the second era and were not limited to any particular areas as they could be encountered nearly all over Tamriel.

Cyrodiil

Only one known tribe exists in Cyrodiil; they are experts of concealment, and their true name has been lost to history. Much like the Imperials, they ousted their competition. Indistinguishable from the living if well-fed, these Cyrodiilic Vampires are cultured and more civilized than vampires of other provinces, using their stealthy abilities to feed on the sleeping and unaware. Calling themselves the Order, these vampires follow the Daedric Prince "Kin-father" Molag Bal, like many other vampires, but they also consider Clavicus Vile their patron. Members are bound never to reveal themselves or the Order, and to procure power, stature, and wealth whenever possible.

Morrowind

The Dunmer are strongly opposed to any form of necromancy, thus vampires are largely unknown in their land of Morrowind. The Tribunal Temple has some control over the public knowledge of vampires, but cannot keep it completely unknown. In the past, Ordinators and Buoyant Armigers were in charge of eradicating vampires, leading to their supposed extinction. Thus, the hunting orders that exist in the western Tamriel are unknown.
The vampires of Morrowind are typically in one of three bloodlines, which differ in accordance to their "approach to prey". The Quarra are aggressive and fierce when it comes to hunting, while the Berne clan prefer a stealthier approach. The Aundae bloodline consist of vampiric mages, who use the dark powers associated with vampirism to entrap prey. These vampires not only have their own strongholds, but are also dispersed amongst the Daedric shrines and abandoned Dunmer and Dwemer strongholds. Ironically, these clans show great hostility to new-born vampires, considering them abominations as their living counterparts do.
In the Red Mountain, the Ash Vampire was an immortal magical being of vast power. They were close kin and loyal lieutenants of Dagoth Ur, and thus partook of his supernatural vitality, but they were not related to true vampires - in fact, they are not even undead. Near the end of the Third Era, the number of vampires began to rise in Morrowind, leading to renewed calls to exterminate them.

Skyrim

The Volkihar vampires of eastern Skyrim live under haunted, frozen lakes and only leave their dens to feed. They have the power to freeze their victims with icy breath, and can reach through the ice of their frozen lake dens without breaking it. They are the earliest known vampire coven in Tamriel. The Volkihar vampires are relatively similar in appearance to those of Cyrodiil and they share some similar powers such as night vision, the ability to turn invisible and the ability to seduce others. Certain Volkihar vampires however appear more monstrous than their Cyrodiilic counterparts- some of them have large brow ridges, slits running through their lips, and bat-like noses, and they have powers which aren't shared by the vampires of Cyrodiil—they can reanimate dead bodies and do not burn when in sunlight (although they are weakened by it). The Volkihar have been known to employ Death Hounds as guardians.
Some of the more ancient Volkihar vampires such as those of the court at Castle Volkihar are pure-blooded and can even transform themselves into a more monstrous form: the large, winged Vampire Lords which were blessed by Molag Bal himself. This gift grants further powers such as the ability to summon gargoyles. It is said that Potema, the Wolf Queen, relied upon vampiric generals in the latter days of the War of the Red Diamond.

Now we should all have a great understanding on vampirism present in this game world! XD

I already pointed out the lack of credible sources cited for this wiki, and the fact that the article about Lamae directly contradicts itself. : P

Why do people keep linking to wikis and acting like they are some kind of definitive answer?

They aren't. Their sources can be, but you actually have to read the sources and find the relevant information and cross-reference that to what is actually stated on the wiki page. Learn to wiki, people.

For example, the official wiki for ES states that Lamae Bal is the "progenitor of the Cyrodiliic vampire order". If you take this at face value, it means that Cyrodiliic vampires are descendants of Lamae Bal.

The source linked for this information is the Manifesto Cyrodiil Vampyrum.

If you actually read the Manifesto, it mentions Lamae offhand, w/ no conclusive evidence that she is actually the source from which this line is derived. This is the only source linked for that information.

Mind you, this is on the official Elder Scrolls wiki, which some seem to believe makes its information more definitive. It does not. It is still a wiki, where information is uploaded by random people who can say pretty much whatever they want.

@Nebthet78 has also fallen prey to this misconception, believing for some reason that the words written on a wiki page are some kind of definitive answer, w/out actually looking into any of the sources. It's an easy mistake to make.

I sincerely hope you wiki-linkers don't carry this habit into grad school w/ you, because there is a reason that wiki information simply isn't acceptable.

Learn to research. : P

MornaBaine · September 2014

Despite the haters, this thread has sparked some really good conversations and ideas. I'm thinking of writing a new thread to incorporate all I've learned from this one. Nope...not letting this subject go. Not by a long shot. LOL