ZoS, definitive answer please: are Troll Camps illegal?

Dleatherus · September 2014

Zheg wrote: »

Are there that many players that would actually be upset if forward camps were removed entirely? It seems like the simplest, quickest, and best solution. Now that we all have fully upgraded fast horses, how about we actually use tactics again and try to cut off enemy transit lines and have it mean something?

i would be in complete favor of this - most who like to push the easy button wouldn't be, and these days that seems to be an alarming and increasing section of the player base

D.

WraithAzraiel · September 2014

Pseudonym wrote: »

dcincali wrote: »

Tintinabula wrote: »

The burden is on you to prove intent.Gluck with that.

PICTURES

*some are from another topic* http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/130642/naming-camp-placers-tired-of-losing-keeps-because-of-troll-camps#latest

Pretty sure you are a smart person and can figure this one out...

That's not proof. One of those tents could be there by coincidence, and however unlikely that might be, it's entirely possible; and they need to be absolutely 100% sure of malicious intent before they start throwing around bans and warnings.

It's cute that you still have THAT much faith in your fellow man.

Look at those pictures from a tactical stand-point. (Most of) the one's circled in red CLEARLY prevent the deployment of another FC that will have a CLEAR tactical use.

This is pure and simple sabotage.

GRxKnight · September 2014

I've said it before in other threads and I'll say it again.

All you need to do is reduce the area of forward camps (like have the area of a keep where the keep is at the center and the radius extends to the resources) so that there is no possible way for a troll camp to be placed in such a way where it will hinder an offense or defense. That is to say, if someone places a camp at the Alessia bridge in an attempt to aid an opposing faction, someone should be able to place a forward camp closer to the keep because of this reduced radius.

And also make it so that you can only spawn at a forward camp if have died in it's area. There's your solution to blood porting.

I dare someone to find a negative impact that this implication will have on the game.

Columba · September 2014

simple solution. dramatically reduce the overalap range that a camp has to prevent the troll camps. secondly reduce the range within which you can port to a camp.

nm, lol ^^ guy above me gets it right.

Malveria · September 2014

Zheg wrote: »

Are there that many players that would actually be upset if forward camps were removed entirely? It seems like the simplest, quickest, and best solution. Now that we all have fully upgraded fast horses, how about we actually use tactics again and try to cut off enemy transit lines and have it mean something?

Removing camps would just create a new array of problems for PVP.

Slow down of keep-based combat and siege: Attacking forces would have to begin with an overwhelming number and hope that whatever reinforcements/resurrections could arrive from a nearby friendly keep/outpost would arrive with enough expedience to maintain the siege. Far more attackers are killed than defenders, especially when the defense is organised and on point.

Forces would not move from keeps: Guilds and organised groups would claim keeps and simply not move off of them. Whilst this might be an interesting element (such as a dedicated defense force), it is also a detrimental one with such a large array of keeps (6 for the emp keeps alone if there is a push, plus the three keeps that secure friendly scrolls, bringing that up to 9). Organised pushes would grind to a halt.

Keep ninja cap will be largely unstoppable: this is especially true for the corner keeps, Brindle, Drakelowe and Dragonclaw. The riding distance between them and the nearest keep/outpost is so long that an organised group can be through both walls and on the flags before a defending force gets there after it's flagged.

Good luck catching a scroll: Organised scroll groups run all sorts of speed buffs, throw down caltrops, send back delaying groups. Without someone running ahead to drop camps for rallying points for the dead, scroll intercepts will literally be impossible unless you have a group waiting to do so. And a group waiting to do so is a group that is not defending that scroll.

PVP will become more of a numbers game than it already is. Whoever brings the biggest force, and ends up killing the most people, will just end up winning every single time. You think you have a zerg problem now? Remove camps, and no one will be moving without a zerg on their side. And if an organised group rolls a zerg? The solution will be a bigger zerg.

madangrypally · September 2014

I support Troll Camps as long as we have the current forward camp design. I hope more and more enemies begin placing Troll camps and it makes small scale PvP viable again as the current Forward Camp transporting has ruined all sense of travel lines.

dcincali · September 2014

madangrypally wrote: »

I support Troll Camps as long as we have the current forward camp design. I hope more and more enemies begin placing Troll camps and it makes small scale PvP viable again as the current Forward Camp transporting has ruined all sense of travel lines.

It doesn't promote small scale pvp and it never will, if you want small scale, move to a campaign like BOS or Haderus where there is maybe one full group defending the whole map.

Cogo · September 2014

I am confused about what the problem is.
This is a serious question.

I hate all kinds of abuse and its awesome to see Zeni work to remove them.
Could someone please clear up what problem "Troll camps" is, in detail?

Is the problem that anyone gets "forced" to respawn somewhere? Hence blocking the set forward camp?
Forward camp = Respawn point for anyone in your alliance to choose as respawn point when you die? True or not?
Does everyone not get the choice where to respawn?
What IS a "troll camp"? What harm can it do, if you choose it to respawn?
If the "troll camp" is an enemy trap. Can it not be skipped, or used as info?

I tried to read more posts but I can not find what the problem is?
Anyone who could be nice and answer? As neutral as possible please.

Cogo · September 2014

driosketch wrote: »

Like a poster mentioned above, someone might put a camp up to quest. Someone might also be new and helpful, but ignorant about how to best place a camp. I remember when I started out, I was trying to place a camp between Roe and Allesia in case the one at Allesia went down, you wouldn't need to run back all the way from Roe. Eventually you find a spot only to realize it's only because the keep camp is down. I've seen camps in this place called a troll camp, but is there any actual proof of that?

This is very important.
Many camps are down for different reasons. Also, Cyrodiil getting more and more players who gets interested. Learning takes time....

Several guilds, including ours, have "days" dedicated for new members to experience new things in ESO. Cyro is a big part. I had 0 interest in PvP when I started ESO. After trying Cyro....I'm bloody spellbound to the place!

Just because someone puts a camp or anything down "wrong", doesn't mean it's made with any bad intent. If it is. How can we prove it without scaring the hell out of a completely innocent newbie, who tried to help?

Any info that helps the war, doesn't zone chat and communications takes care of that? It does on EU server most of the time.

Edit: I am in NO WAY "defending" "troll camps" or any other way to exploit your way in ESO. I am trying to understand and who knows, come up with a suggestion?

GRxKnight · September 2014

Cogo wrote: »

I am confused about what the problem is.
This is a serious question.

I hate all kinds of abuse and its awesome to see Zeni work to remove them.
Could someone please clear up what problem "Troll camps" is, in detail?
Is the problem that anyone gets "forced" to respawn somewhere? Hence blocking the set forward camp?

Forward camp = Respawn point for anyone in your alliance to choose as respawn point when you die? True or not?

Does everyone not get the choice where to respawn?

What IS a "troll camp"? What harm can it do, if you choose it to respawn?

If the "troll camp" is an enemy trap. Can it not be skipped, or used as info?

I tried to read more posts but I can not find what the problem is?
Anyone who could be nice and answer? As neutral as possible please.

1) Yes if you're defending or attacking a keep you would like to respawn relatively close to the point of interest. A troll camp pretty much forces you to respawn a long ways away from the keep and there isn't a closer option as the keep under seige is more than likely flagged, and has you ride all the way back to the keep. You usually see these placed after a while of one faction beating on a door for a long time and failing to get in due to perfect camp management by the defending team.

2) Yes you can choose to respawn at them, however some camps are better than others.

3) Again yes.

4) Read 1.

5) If an enemy places a troll camp on the battlefield (and they're obvious when you see them) there's no telling who it was that dropped the troll camp. By the time you res out of the keep that person is long gone (either logged off or ran and hid). With the current system you can't overlap forward camps. I.E. you can't have more than one camp inside a given area.

SeltzerDuke · September 2014

There must be a lot of PVEers placing gank insurance/duelers/misguided pugs (insert lame pretext for justifying troll camp placements) in AD territory tonight. Or maybe red is planning a skyshard hunting party. Good times!

Cogo · September 2014

GRxKnight wrote: »

Cogo wrote: »

I am confused about what the problem is.
This is a serious question.

I hate all kinds of abuse and its awesome to see Zeni work to remove them.
Could someone please clear up what problem "Troll camps" is, in detail?
Is the problem that anyone gets "forced" to respawn somewhere? Hence blocking the set forward camp?

Forward camp = Respawn point for anyone in your alliance to choose as respawn point when you die? True or not?

Does everyone not get the choice where to respawn?

What IS a "troll camp"? What harm can it do, if you choose it to respawn?

If the "troll camp" is an enemy trap. Can it not be skipped, or used as info?

I tried to read more posts but I can not find what the problem is?
Anyone who could be nice and answer? As neutral as possible please.

1) Yes if you're defending or attacking a keep you would like to respawn relatively close to the point of interest. A troll camp pretty much forces you to respawn a long ways away from the keep and there isn't a closer option as the keep under seige is more than likely flagged, and has you ride all the way back to the keep. You usually see these placed after a while of one faction beating on a door for a long time and failing to get in due to perfect camp management by the defending team.

2) Yes you can choose to respawn at them, however some camps are better than others.

3) Again yes.

4) Read 1.

5) If an enemy places a troll camp on the battlefield (and they're obvious when you see them) there's no telling who it was that dropped the troll camp. By the time you res out of the keep that person is long gone (either logged off or ran and hid). With the current system you can't overlap forward camps. I.E. you can't have more than one camp inside a given area.

Thank you for your polite answers! I mean that!

So, in short, anyone can skip the camp and do not need to respawn at the "troll camp". IF there is a camp up closer to the keep you are attacking. You can pick that camp to respawn in?

Thank you again for clearing up my questions. But it only increased my confusion about WHY a "troll camp" is a problem?

Is not the answer?: Do not use a camp you do not want to spawn at?

I am trying to find out if there is something preventing anyone from using a "closer" camp?

Not to sound rude, but where someone respawns at, is always THEIR choice? Right?

If the problem is: Choosing the "wrong" one? Then I don't really see the problem being the camp.....but more who is using it?

Did I miss something?

SeltzerDuke · September 2014

Cogo wrote: »

Thank you again for clearing up my questions. But it only increased my confusion about WHY a "troll camp" is a problem?

Is not the answer?: Do not use a camp you do not want to spawn at?

I am trying to find out if there is something preventing anyone from using a "closer" camp?

Not to sound rude, but where someone respawns at, is always THEIR choice? Right?

If the problem is: Choosing the "wrong" one? Then I don't really see the problem being the camp.....but more who is using it?

Did I miss something?

Here are two points that should help clear up why they're such a problem:

1) Any faction can only have 10 FCs up at one time. If there are half a dozen troll camps littered across enemy territory that is currently not up for grabs, that can quite significantly limits options in the hotly contested territory, especially if the faction being trolled is being attacked on several fronts by the 2 other factions at once.

2) Once a troll camp is up, no other camp can be placed in its radius. So while a keep under siege would want to put friendly camps either right in its courtyard, up in a corner tower, or just outside a postern/gate, instead with a troll camp sitting halfway to the next keep but with nonetheless its radius overlapping the keep (and possibly even all its resources), basically the defense is shafted until that camp is used up, losing valuable time in a defense. Even if defenders suicide to burn up that camp as quickly as possible, you still lose 20 defenders who would otherwise be fighting rather than having to run back. Yes, Cyrodiil is gorgeous scenery, but I'd rather admire it when my faction isn't about to lose a scroll/gate keep/emp keep, thanks.

Shaun98ca2 · September 2014

I figured out the solution and its GENIOUS!!!!!!!!!!!!

Keep the cap. BUT make the 11th tent override the earliest tent placed down. A tent rotation if you will.

OBVIOISLY people are still going to attempt to troll but at least this allows you to place a well needed tent that the trolls cant really do much about.

Im surprised we don't have WORSE issues with trolls and camps than this as this is really the only issue I have read about.

PartygirlYolo · September 2014

Guys, good you have opinions and ideas, but this is not the topic of this thread. Same goes to the question whether certain camps are for trolling or not.

Question was: Are troll camps illegal or not?

redsteelb16_ESO · September 2014

Suggestions:
1) Make forward camps only function if within a certain radius of a faction owned Keep, (roughly 1 and half distance to another keep)
2) Make all forward camps visible to all factions
3) Make the forward camps extremely vulnerable to fire damage (from siege weapons and player sneaking over and setting on fire)
4) Only one forward camp per keep
5) Make sure the cost to buy the camp is high enough to prevent spaming

Monsoon · September 2014

Put the name of the player who put up the camp ON the mouseover of the camp. What is so freaking hard about that? When a single player is found after some time to make troll camp from reports, warn him/her.

Shaun98ca2 · September 2014

PartygirlYolo wrote: »

Guys, good you have opinions and ideas, but this is not the topic of this thread. Same goes to the question whether certain camps are for trolling or not.

Question was: Are troll camps illegal or not?

The answer was its discouraged. There is no way to PROVE a "troll camp" is deliberately malicious as any number of excuses would be acceptable for a Devs to simply look the other way as they wouldn't want to punish players for reason other than attempting troll.

Luvsfuzzybunnies · September 2014

dcincali wrote: »

Tintinabula wrote: »

The burden is on you to prove intent.Gluck with that.

*some are from another topic* http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/130642/naming-camp-placers-tired-of-losing-keeps-because-of-troll-camps#latest

Pretty sure you are a smart person and can figure this one out...

None of the locations in this seem too far out to me though. They are placed when you want to take a resource the ones in the home areas aren't affecting anything. The ones between keeps could be for gank groups. It's unfortunate that people can't play the way they want without being accused of trolling..

Luvsfuzzybunnies · September 2014

Tintinabula wrote: »

pretty pictures!! I saw one where it looked like someone was gonna run a scroll and they laid down a series of tents for the scroll runner and gang.

yea a few actually.

Yellow running a scroll from blue to red or red to blue? If there is a max of camps allowed per alliance then i retract my statement of the camps in home not hurting you.

Shaun98ca2 · September 2014

I also wanna state that I find the limiting of FCs weird in general.

Luvsfuzzybunnies · September 2014

Malveria wrote: »

Honestly I have no idea where any of you are when the troll camping starts, but as someone who has lost keeps because of it, allow me to explain how poor camp placement is an act of deliberate intent, and detrimental outcome.

- A poorly placed AD camp appears on the EP side of the river SE of Alessia. The run back to Alessia is very long, either forcing people to go further south and cross the middle bridge, or go north and run a gauntlet of the blue that magically appear around Alessia and start sieging at the same time.

- A camp appears between Alessia, Roe and Faregyl, blocking all three keeps from having camps, and Roe and Faregyl light up a moment later, and no one can get to them quickly.

- Cyrodiil has a limit of ten camps per faction. One faction is pushing for Emperor and is trying to defend the Emperor keeps they have gained, and the attacks in their territory launched by enemy factions trying to capitalise on/stop their push. That's 5 or so camps, especially if the final Emp keep is being pushed which would being it to six. Suddenly four camps appear in the middle of nowhere, hitting the limit when the emp-push camp goes down. No more emp push.

Dudis wrote: »

No.

I very much doubt most "troll camps" even are meant to be troll camps. That said though, they seem to be very rare anyways where I play (EU Thornblade)

They happen every day in Thronblade US.

Pseudonym wrote: »

That's not proof. One of those tents could be there by coincidence, and however unlikely that might be, it's entirely possible; and they need to be absolutely 100% sure of malicious intent before they start throwing around bans and warnings.

Most of those pictures you saw? Were in the space of one day. In fact, three of those pictures you saw for AD were in the space of two hours.[/

driosketch wrote: »

A lot of those camps aren't hurting anything but the AP reserves of the player placing them. A few of them mark troll I could see as legitimate, albeit non optimal placement.

There are some definite defense camp blocks there in the set though. It seems like an easy thing to get around, by having one group rez there to use the camp up while the defense readies a proper camp. Use it as an opportunity to berserk the enemy assult, or have players elsewhere blood-port to the camp for you, then ride full tilt to the keep defense. If any should die on the way, they can rez at the proper camp, boosting the number of defenders. And if one of you stays behind, nonchalantly, they can observe if someone deliberately tries to replace the camp. Then you have a name to report.

1) Sometimes organised groups are tied up, and the only organised gruop that can respond would not get to the keep in time to defend it.

2) We're trying to get our non-guild/group players to use up camps but it's slow going, and it's a pain when there's six of them across the map. At this point, we have single players dying repeatedly to use a camp up because no one else can spare the time at some points. And then another troll camp goes down.

3) Naming camp placers, as I say in my other thread, would go a long way toward us being able to hold troll camps available. 'Camp placed by ....' It lets us know a) who put down troll camps and b) who put down clutch camps and c) who is maintaining camps on a siege.

Makkir wrote: »

1) 1 camp per player dropped at any given time so one person cant spam the map with camps
2) When you die, you can spawn at the closest camp only. This keeps active PvP'ers "in the fight" at the current keep, and also doesn't allow them to suicide spawn across the map.

Looks like problem solved in my opinion.

Neither of these fix the problem.

1) It only takes one poor camp placement to cost someone the keep, and punishing players who camp two or three keeps that are vulnerable or have been hit a few times in the last hour or so is wrong. You fill people's inventories up with a non-stacking item that sometimes they can only use once every half hour?

2) Closest camp only, or camp radius, still does not help when that camp radius prohibits the placement of another camp in a more strategic location. Nor does it help when all of your camps are clustered in completely useless locations.

People who are PVEing in Cyrodiil who put down poor camps need to be responsible for their actions. There are hundreds of people in Cyrodiil, and when your camp can cost them their hard work, you should be held accountable for that. Getting ganked in Cyrodiil is a part of the game. If you want to PVE in peace, go to a dead server. Why come to a PVP server and expect to not be ganked if it's full or locked on the enemy side? That's ridiculous, and expecting the game to cater to you, and not the other 500 people in there.

For those of you who are wondering if deliberately hindering camp placement is against the ToS: It is assisting the enemy, and that is a reportable - and bannable - offense.

Please. Please. Name camp placers on the camp. Same as gear saying 'Made by ____' If it's an innocent camp placement, let them defend themselves in zone. But one person putting up poorly placed camps repeatedly? No. Not an accident.

tldnr: Troll camps are a thing. Do something about it.

Wait wait wait a second. The developers of the game placed pve objectives in a pvp zone. You have to go do them to complete all quests and get all sky's hard for achievement/completion purposes. There are now 5 campaigns all have players in them. So when did your 15 dollars become worth more than a pve players 15 bucks? They should be able to place camps at locations the need to to complete the objective they are trying to complete. Reminds me of a day I was on and placed a camp to duel other players on the server one of the emperors buddies chastised me cause I placed a camp near a keep that they weren't sieging for 2 hours they come down there and interrupt my duel and yell at me saying people are trying to pvp. Except the ones pvping were me and my dueling opponent they were just pvdoor in it was early morning ish time no real oppositionn from the other factions at that point and they all die somewhere else and blood port to my camp. Your post should be deleted for accusing people of trolling in fact this whole post should as per the forums rules on talking about trolling and accusing of trolling...

wllstrt75b14_ESO · September 2014

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

This sort of behavior is not something we like to see. It's against the spirit of the game, and hurts the health of ESO's PVP. We also understand that a handful of bad eggs will always try to ruin the fun for all. That's up to us to solve. As Brian mentioned, we are exploring development-drive solutions and will share what we have in mind as soon as possible.

@onlinegamer1 - you got your answer, ZOS declined to give you the answer you wanted.

No they're not 'illegal'.

/thread

Someone needs to go back to English class.....that's not at all what they said here.

"It's against the spirit of the game." How does that fit into your reasoning?

Zeni basically says yes it's not what they intended and they will fix when they figure it out.

Mitharus · September 2014

Luvsfuzzybunnies wrote: »

They should be able to place camps at locations the need to to complete the objective they are trying to complete. Reminds me of a day I was on and placed a camp to duel other players on the server one of the emperors buddies chastised me cause I placed a camp near a keep that they weren't sieging for 2 hours they come down there and interrupt my duel and yell at me saying people are trying to pvp. Except the ones pvping were me and my dueling opponent they were just pvdoor in it was early morning ish time no real oppositionn from the other factions at that point and they all die somewhere else and blood port to my camp.

Your example with the dueling is, in my opinion, a valid use of the camps. Not what most are going to like, but oh well, you aren't intentionally doing anything, so screw them.

But, here's the issue with the PvE reasoning. Now, I haven't done PvE in Cyrodiil for a while so it could have changed, but when you died to a PvE mob (Not keep guard, other player, etc..), then your only option for resurrection was a Soul Gem, or Wayshrine. That's it. An FC is worthless. So for everyone spouting the "It's for PvE!" ... no, no it isn't (Unless as I said, they've changed it to where you can use an FC if you die to a PvE mob).

-M

Luvsfuzzybunnies · September 2014

The problem.with camps in general is theyour remove the penaltyfor.death I a pvp game.

Shaun98ca2 · September 2014

Luvsfuzzybunnies wrote: »

The problem.with camps in general is theyour remove the penaltyfor.death I a pvp game.

Maybe there needs to be a better balance between cost and acquisition of FCs not to mention siege equipment as well.

Make these simply harder to obtain by the masses while being much much more valuable in actual use.

HARDER not impossible but at the same time....apparently the current cost isn't a hindrance to the trolling.

Arsenic_Touch · September 2014

They can fix the forward camp problem really easily. Just get rid of the item itself and place permanent npc controlled forward camps throughout the zone. To use said camp you need to clear out the previous inhabitants and put your own faction npcs in (there are many locations in the zone where there imperial npcs next to a camp that would work prefect for it)

Don't put a limit on the amount of respawns and make it so they can be destroyed like previous camps. Make it so you can upgrade the npcs and even give them siege equipment to protect the place. Add a whole new dynamic to the battle. Should also give you the option to upgrade the keeps, higher engineers to build siege equipment placements around the walls, builders to fix things, soldiers to defend it.

As for the lumbermills, mines and farms, they should require you to run the resources to the main keep or have npcs run them that you must guard. This is one thing that guild wars 2 did really well.

Now there are no more troll camps because you can just clear another npc camp to make your own forward camp. You can even clear out an opposing faction's camp and make it your own.

Skylandra · September 2014

driosketch wrote: »

Dleatherus wrote: »

@Dleatherus‌ , that sounds more like he's talking about blood-porting issues which is a common complaint rather than troll camp. Which I'm not even convinced is a real problem.

Like a poster mentioned above, someone might put a camp up to quest. Someone might also be new and helpful, but ignorant about how to best place a camp. I remember when I started out, I was trying to place a camp between Roe and Allesia in case the one at Allesia went down, you wouldn't need to run back all the way from Roe. Eventually you find a spot only to realize it's only because the keep camp is down. I've seen camps in this place called a troll camp, but is there any actual proof of that?

Sorry - been playing ESO since Beta and Troll Camps are exactly what the op claims.. They are a fairly new tactic in ESO used to disrupt the ability of the enemy to spawn in the desired location. I actually find it funny - but to deny its existence is silly. The Other day during a loooong defence all of a sudden we had 2 camps placed on opposite sides of the keep as far away as could be while still making it so we couldn't place a camp within the keep outer wall.

PvP in ESO is getting so bad I kinda wish we could go back to the Bat swarming Ulti days.... At least you could pick up a good fight on the flanks and re-supply routes....

driosketch · September 2014

Skylandra wrote: »

Sorry - been playing ESO since Beta and Troll Camps are exactly what the op claims.. They are a fairly new tactic in ESO used to disrupt the ability of the enemy to spawn in the desired location. I actually find it funny - but to deny its existence is silly. The Other day during a loooong defence all of a sudden we had 2 camps placed on opposite sides of the keep as far away as could be while still making it so we couldn't place a camp within the keep outer wall.

My post was before people in this thread actually explained what troll camps are instead of assuming everyone else already knew. Thanks to @Malveria for two great posts by the way.

Monsoon wrote: »

Put the name of the player who put up the camp ON the mouseover of the camp. What is so freaking hard about that? When a single player is found after some time to make troll camp from reports, warn him/her.

This assumes players would get warned or banned. It's didn't happen when players found their way into the safe zones of other factions, which was also not intended. Even if you could name said players in the forums it wouldn't stop them from doing this in game.

demonlkojipub19_ESO · September 2014

There probably won't be a yes or no answer to OP question. What it is is "Gray area".

We just have to wait until they implement a better FC system to help combat sabotage camp placement.