Aeratus wrote: »

Braddass wrote: »

Their sustained dps is not on par

This is just flat out wrong. NB is one of the highest in sustained dps, at least on a single target basis.

If you've ever been in PVE trials, you know how high NB sustained dps is. Next, outside of trials, you have siphoning attacks, which gives NB the best resource sustain.

few working survivability options (Cloak rarely works and Blur is a joke).

Put on light armor and just spam healing wards and harness magicka.

DOTs interfere with the cloak skill. Switch the bow for resto staff, and you won't need to rely on DOTs like poison arrow to do ranged damage.

Also, get the efficient purge skill. Use that instead of dark cloak to get rid of DOT effects and the black bubble that you incur during sieges. When you have efficient purge, you won't need the Dark Cloak's effect unless you're strictly a stealth player. So you can respec to Shadowy Disguise.

I agree that medium armor stamina NB has survivability problems. But medium armor stamina sorc also does (and hardened ward and bolt escape won't help the sorc there when he doesn't have the magicka to cast it).

I understand you're being helpful, so don't take this as me bashing you, but what your post is basically saying is in order to do well as a Nightblade in PVP you have to replace all our core skills and spam a staff heal.

You must see why that annoys many Nightblade players.

Ryzium wrote: »

lathbury wrote: »

So what your saying is nb's are fine except their broken abilities?

I am saying that NBs are balanced except for their broken abilities

Irony, it's lost on some people.

Draxuul wrote: »

Stx wrote: »

I but that is not the solution most players want to hear when they ask for advice on how to improve in pvp. Bow/DW actually does fine right now too, you just need to have more skill and be much more aware of your surroundings... so yeah I'm not sure why people would still say NB's are underpowered.

I'll take a shot in the dark here and say that those who claim their NB is underpowered are those who played the rogue in WoW or the Buglar in LOTRO and are used to being the kings of the hill without too much efforts.

They're used to rolling through their ennemies like a hot knife through butter without ever or very rarely coming across someone who can actually turn around and hit them back .

That being said , if there are still NB abilities that are not working as the devs intended and if NBs are still at a disadvantage because of that then yeah those abilities need to be fixed so they can work as intended .

But i'm really happy to see that the sneaky ones in this game are not having such an easy life as they are used to having in other games.

Draxuul

I guess you are DK or an OPlar. i hope you lose your OP ness and getting some bugs to deal with, but remember, dont complain if that happens.

In ESO even you as DK can sneak around and get sneak kills, since you get bonus for that attack, but since your mind is full of this: WOW WOW WOW, and some LOTRO, your brain dropped that information.

So what sneaky class ehh? the one ability that gives a class 2.9 sec invisibility, what is bugged and failing everytime? That you dont have any good self heal just bugged hot, no shield, no good defense skills, while look at other classes.... enough to say that...

Spectrasoul wrote: »

This whole stupid argument (and stupid post) revolves around the idea that "bla bla bla yes NB is perfect and fine if you use Light Armor and some combination of staves and 1h + shield."

Look, that may be the case but the the issue is that those builds (not the class) are imbalanced.

You guys can argue to death about how NB can be one thing or another but I'm telling you now, NB should be at it's strongest when using sneak and sneak related skills. Not a @#![]/#% wood stick of whatever and a god damn dress. Ok if people want to use those things - fine. Please do. It doesn't mean it is the solution for everyone.

It is irritating for me that I'm not at optimal strength when I'm using the mechanics which should benefit my class the most. I'm not saying it can't be done, Surprise attack out of sneak on an unsuspecting victim should be a kill but when it comes to 1vs2-3 or group fights then it becomes very situational and quite frankly inefficient to use. That is what needs working on.

This whole "stupid argent" revolves around you understanding that if your build is lacking in some area you have to change your build to make up for it. NB are not very defensive so they need something to help get them that. Every class has something that they don't have, NBs don't have good health sustain or defense. By saying you have to use light armor and and a staff to play we'll is absurd you just may not get the surviveability to actually kill your targets but I still see DW/Bow NBs kill me and others all the time in PvP.

Aeratus wrote: »

kitsinni wrote: »

I am curious why you think a nb would be better using the fotm weapons than the other classes with real synergies with those weapons?

He never said that fotm NB is better than fotm other classes.

But in any case, for some players, their NB is their main character for pvp, and whether an fotm build (stick, shield, and light armor) for NB is better or worse than an fotm build for other classes is not a relevant question, since they simply don't have another character to play. Then, it only becomes an issue of selecting a build within one class, rather than a build across different classes.

Even though an fotm NB doesn't have the survivability of an fotm sorc/temp/dk, the fotm NB still retains most of the stealth power of the traditional dw/bow type. Thus, the fotm NB is a build with good balance between stealth and sustained combat that you don't find in other builds. In this way, fotm NB does have its distinct flavor to it.

He said that he challenges us to show how Nightblade is under powered. If the fact that they are never on the top end of the leaderboards is not enough to show they are not as powerful as the other classes then I think showing how they are less powerful than all the other classes with all of the weapons he talked about is a very valid argument on being under powered. When I am saying under powered I'm not saying they you can't play them, I'm saying they are less powerful than the competition. I know NB can be played I already have over 200k AP this campaign with a Medium armor NB.

Other than cloak what advantage in stealth does NB have? Everyone can stealth, everyone can get the same speed there is one weak morph NB can use to get 25% more speed. The sets and vampire are not NB specific. NB's do a little more damage for one attack from stealth and get 4 seconds of increased armor/spell resistance pretty much all of which won't be relevant with the builds that make "Nightblade fine". Nightblade would actually shine a bit if not for impenetrable and the fact that pretty much every DK/Sorc or anyone with a shield can make most of our skills a joke. I have about 62% crit and I can count on one hand how many times I crit in a day when I'm not in stealth. Most of our class abilities can be make to barely do damage against someone blocking. DK's can reflect even strife back at us. All of our ultimates require to be in melee range, yet we have no real defense to be in close. We don't dodge more, we don't get missed more, we don't have a bolt escape. We have a cloak that lasts 2.9 seconds with passives that doesn't even work half the time.

Nightblades can make great small group or solo stealth hunters if you build around it. You can really be successful with it. In a regular group situation I can't think of one of the other classes that wouldn't be stronger. With all of the weapons listed by the OP I can't think of one of the other classes that wouldn't be stronger and that doesn't have better synergies with them. I would say that easily meets the definition of under powered when ever other class can use the same setup but do better. You can argue all day that the top of every PvP leader board since launch has been all DK's and Sorcs by a huge margin and attribute that to how many people play those classes but eventually have have to think of why that many more people are playign those classes. Also volume of players doesn't equal high on the leader boards. It would only take one really good Nightblade to be in the top 10. In fact with how overplayed DK and Sorc are you would think good counters would have been found by now but the truth is they are just stronger all around.

Ryzium wrote: »

Artemis wrote: »

tordr86b16_ESO wrote: »

DW melee build is viable in pve, check this: http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/nightblade-stamina-based-dps-build-dw-viable-and-trials-ready

don't expect to do omg over 9000 aoe dps with it though.

Define viable. It's MUCH MUCH worse than magicka builds. Which means, if people have choice, they might prefer a magicka user. Because no matter how skilled you are, you just mathematically can't reach magicka users' dps. Numbers are just smaller and that's it.

Well, I would love to show you a very viable melee build. If you could give me your favorite weapon and your race I will show it to you

Breton, medium armor, weapons - DW, 2h, bow.
Thanks.

BUILD LINK

Here is your build for PvP, use these set pieces
Warlock (5) - Head Shoulders Rings and Amulet
Of the Air (3) - Chest Legs Boots
Nights Silence or Oblivion's Foe (3/4) - Waist Gloves Weapon/Shield

You will focus sword and shield as your main DPS and use Bow as your buffs and kiting bar/opening bar

Keep elude and double take up to reduce heavy melee damage and you can mitigate allot of spell damage blocking with a shield.

DPS wise you can hit the enemy with surprise attack and repeatedly hit them with ransack to keep your armor up and damage them. Make sure to keep siphoning attacks on while you are tanking damage and turn it off before you try to burst the person down.

Use mass hysteria to force enemies off you with a fear so you can damage them without them being able to block.

A good combo to keep in mind is using one or two magnum shots followed by an invasion, this can give you some quick damage and a fast stun allowing you to get in close to burst with your 2 move spam.

Finally keep dark shades on them the ENTIRE fight, this ability is a stamina drain on block spammers and give them a 30% reduction in overall damage output.

Let me know if you have an questions. Hope this helps.

Several things that go through my head:

1. Air set doesn't come with Impenetrable afaik so you will be more likely to get hit by crit hits which is even more likely because you
2. are using 2 Warlock pieces which never come with Impen so even more damage from crit hits.
3. The build has no way of self-healing other than Soul-Tether - I know the idea is to avoid the majority of dmg, it remains to be seen how viable this is in extended fights. Still, this is my main issue with this build.
4. Ransack increases your own armor which is nice against melee dmg but I think Pierce Armor might be more in order since you are running only 2 light, meaning you are losing out on spell resist (true, it's only useful against enemies not stacking spell pen )
5. (I am going to call your hybrid build for that's what it seems to be to me) I have tried similar builds but always had the problem of running out of both resources quickly, which seems to be the case here as well, though I admit a claim like this has to be proven by trying it in practice.
6. You completely lack any form of condition removal.
7. Using Snipe is only viable if you do it from stealth or if your enemy doesn't dodge/bash or the game is laging. Your evasion/miss chance might circumvent this though. Anyways, you are still limiting yourself a lot by having only 2 ranged skills and - correct me if I am wrong - Magnumt Shot doesn't deal a lot of dmg although it allows you to create some distance between you and your enemy.

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying your build is bad. I am just wondering whether it is as viable in PvP as you make it sound. 3, 6 and 7 are what makes me cringe when thinking about going toe to toe with a Dk with this build. Going to give it a try once I get online tonight anyways.

Ryzium wrote: »

Use mass hysteria to force enemies off you with a fear so you can damage them without them being able to block.

Not sure about this, I saw claims that while you can't block the fear itself you can indeed block during the time you are affected by it.

@Ryzium Here is an important question are you talking about them being fine in Gank Groups or fine in normal large group PvP, keep siege/defense scenarios? I have grouped with you a few times and I was even in your guild from what I remember it was 100% gank groups. If you are talking about small group skirmishes and gank groups only I can understand why you think they are fine because that is the one place they shine.

Stx wrote: »

Raeder wrote: »

I think you need to look at the leaderboards. DKs score 33% more AP than NB do, and Sorcs score 25%. That is all you need to look at to see that there is a problem with class balance.

That is simply because NB's are built around smaller scale battles, while AP comes mostly from zerging and AE.

Sorc's and DK's can't drop people from stealth like a NB can. Although Sorc has nice burst.

lol?
they are by far the best zerg class out there - insane ultimate gain enables nbs to keep up both, veil of blades and batswarm simultaniuosly and infinite. while delivering on top the highest pbae dmg (beside broken fragmented shield)
- sure that wont hapen with mighty bow/dw

GwaynLoki wrote: »

Ryzium wrote: »

Artemis wrote: »

tordr86b16_ESO wrote: »

DW melee build is viable in pve, check this: http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/nightblade-stamina-based-dps-build-dw-viable-and-trials-ready

don't expect to do omg over 9000 aoe dps with it though.

Define viable. It's MUCH MUCH worse than magicka builds. Which means, if people have choice, they might prefer a magicka user. Because no matter how skilled you are, you just mathematically can't reach magicka users' dps. Numbers are just smaller and that's it.

Well, I would love to show you a very viable melee build. If you could give me your favorite weapon and your race I will show it to you

Breton, medium armor, weapons - DW, 2h, bow.
Thanks.

BUILD LINK

Here is your build for PvP, use these set pieces
Warlock (5) - Head Shoulders Rings and Amulet
Of the Air (3) - Chest Legs Boots
Nights Silence or Oblivion's Foe (3/4) - Waist Gloves Weapon/Shield

You will focus sword and shield as your main DPS and use Bow as your buffs and kiting bar/opening bar

Keep elude and double take up to reduce heavy melee damage and you can mitigate allot of spell damage blocking with a shield.

DPS wise you can hit the enemy with surprise attack and repeatedly hit them with ransack to keep your armor up and damage them. Make sure to keep siphoning attacks on while you are tanking damage and turn it off before you try to burst the person down.

Use mass hysteria to force enemies off you with a fear so you can damage them without them being able to block.

A good combo to keep in mind is using one or two magnum shots followed by an invasion, this can give you some quick damage and a fast stun allowing you to get in close to burst with your 2 move spam.

Finally keep dark shades on them the ENTIRE fight, this ability is a stamina drain on block spammers and give them a 30% reduction in overall damage output.

Let me know if you have an questions. Hope this helps.

Several things that go through my head:

1. Air set doesn't come with Impenetrable afaik so you will be more likely to get hit by crit hits which is even more likely because you
2. are using 2 Warlock pieces which never come with Impen so even more damage from crit hits.
3. The build has no way of self-healing other than Soul-Tether - I know the idea is to avoid the majority of dmg, it remains to be seen how viable this is in extended fights. Still, this is my main issue with this build.
4. Ransack increases your own armor which is nice against melee dmg but I think Pierce Armor might be more in order since you are running only 2 light, meaning you are losing out on spell resist (true, it's only useful against enemies not stacking spell pen )
5. (I am going to call your hybrid build for that's what it seems to be to me) I have tried similar builds but always had the problem of running out of both resources quickly, which seems to be the case here as well, though I admit a claim like this has to be proven by trying it in practice.
6. You completely lack any form of condition removal.
7. Using Snipe is only viable if you do it from stealth or if your enemy doesn't dodge/bash or the game is laging. Your evasion/miss chance might circumvent this though. Anyways, you are still limiting yourself a lot by having only 2 ranged skills and - correct me if I am wrong - Magnumt Shot doesn't deal a lot of dmg although it allows you to create some distance between you and your enemy.

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying your build is bad. I am just wondering whether it is as viable in PvP as you make it sound. 3, 6 and 7 are what makes me cringe when thinking about going toe to toe with a Dk with this build. Going to give it a try once I get online tonight anyways.

Ryzium wrote: »

Use mass hysteria to force enemies off you with a fear so you can damage them without them being able to block.

Not sure about this, I saw claims that while you can't block the fear itself you can indeed block during the time you are affected by it.

2 things before I get to my comment. NBs and every other class has to deal with balancing weapon damage and spell damage, magicka and stamina. This is just part of making your build and has nothing to do with NBs being bad. Second, this build was designed by someone who wanted to use bow,DW or 2handed. This is not my PvP build with my NB, I will post that if you want it.

1/2. Yes you will only be able to run a 3 piece impen with this set up but swapping air with high silence set which is craftable allows you to get another 3 pieces.

3. This is not my build, this was thrown together quickly. If you wanted some healing on a NB you need Resto staff.

4. Pierce armor reduces armor and spell resist by this build doesn't use any abilities that go through spell resist so it is irrelevant.

5. If you are running out of resources you aren't using siphoning attacks at all or correctly.

6. I don't need condition removal because I have the shield to mitigate damage. You can use efficient purge if you really want one.

7. Pretty sure I say thatthat snipe is for an opener. Also with the combo of disorient and creating space with magnum shot you can easily start kiting or charge in with invasion for a stun. Magnum shot does decent damage but is there for the disorient and the space created.

Let me know if you have any more questions.

oren74 wrote: »

What I don't understand is why all the other classes are so darn good at sneaking.

Honestly nobody will be happy until all the classes are exactly the same with abilities that just have different names and do the exact same thing. It's getting close to that now anyway.

• NBs should be the only ones to sneak but be kinda squishy
• DKs should be the only ones to block insane amounts of damage with their shield, but have no AoEs and hit just "ok"
• Sorcs should have high damage rates but be ultra squishy
• And Temps should be great healers, ok at taking damage, and terrible at dishing out damage.

But the strategy right now is to make every class good at everything.

What I don't understand is why we have such rigid classes in a TES game (well, actually I do, but that conflicts with me trying to be argumentative :P )

This game isn't built strictly around class, but instead around 'viable skill options.' The nightblade is not the only stealth class, we simply have more viable stealth options and synergy. Dks are not the only tank class, they simply have more viable tank options and synergy. Sorcs are not the only ranged caster class, they simply have a great number of good ranged spells. Templars are not the only heals, their heals are just better. Any class can adapt to a role, it is simply a matter of compensating for where skills are lacking.

Nightblades, for example, can make supprisingly effective tanks. We simply lack a powerful self heal for those 'oh ****' moments, a bubble or armor defensive buff, and (debatably) good pull comparable to a Dk. A good healer in the group, or equipping a resto in the second bar can compensate for the first, there are options in the fighters guild, resto staff and undaunted lines that can make up for the second (and dodge tanking is a good option too), and drain power and it's morphs can create a great amount of threat (also, it allows for the dropping of many veils of blades for added defense.)

Do I wish the mechanics of cloak were better and more reliable? You bet your sweetrolls I do! But it works just enough in those situations where I need it that I still use it in PvP. A sorc can be similarly effective at stealth assassination, so can any of the classes, and I wouldn't want to see it any other way. We all have similar issues with stamina builds too, so 'I don't feel as effective with daggers and medium' is not a nightblade only complaint.

oren74 wrote: »

What I don't understand is why all the other classes are so darn good at sneaking.

Honestly nobody will be happy until all the classes are exactly the same with abilities that just have different names and do the exact same thing. It's getting close to that now anyway.

• NBs should be the only ones to sneak but be kinda squishy
• DKs should be the only ones to block insane amounts of damage with their shield, but have no AoEs and hit just "ok"
• Sorcs should have high damage rates but be ultra squishy
• And Temps should be great healers, ok at taking damage, and terrible at dishing out damage.

But the strategy right now is to make every class good at everything.

TESO is not and should not be a freaking standard constrained class mmo.

The "Play as you want" idea was that your class will not influence your role. This was every TES fan main concern when they introduced classess and they promised that in the end class will not be as constraining as in standard MMOs. This is what the devs should strive for. The problem is not that everybody can do everything, the problem is that they can't. There are no competitive DK healers for example or other class than Templars for that matter. There are also no truly effective stealth Temps and Dks either. There is no truly effective resilient NB for group pvp engagements even if in pve we can be great tanks.The list of things that can't be done is pretty long unfortunately.

Ryzium wrote: »

Shunravi wrote: »

oren74 wrote: »

What I don't understand is why all the other classes are so darn good at sneaking.

Honestly nobody will be happy until all the classes are exactly the same with abilities that just have different names and do the exact same thing. It's getting close to that now anyway.

• NBs should be the only ones to sneak but be kinda squishy
• DKs should be the only ones to block insane amounts of damage with their shield, but have no AoEs and hit just "ok"
• Sorcs should have high damage rates but be ultra squishy
• And Temps should be great healers, ok at taking damage, and terrible at dishing out damage.

But the strategy right now is to make every class good at everything.

What I don't understand is why we have such rigid classes in a TES game (well, actually I do, but that conflicts with me trying to be argumentative :P )

This game isn't built strictly around class, but instead around 'viable skill options.' The nightblade is not the only stealth class, we simply have more viable stealth options and synergy. Dks are not the only tank class, they simply have more viable tank options and synergy. Sorcs are not the only ranged caster class, they simply have a great number of good ranged spells. Templars are not the only heals, their heals are just better. Any class can adapt to a role, it is simply a matter of compensating for where skills are lacking.

Nightblades, for example, can make supprisingly effective tanks. We simply lack a powerful self heal for those 'oh ****' moments, a bubble or armor defensive buff, and (debatably) good pull comparable to a Dk. A good healer in the group, or equipping a resto in the second bar can compensate for the first, there are options in the fighters guild, resto staff and undaunted lines that can make up for the second (and dodge tanking is a good option too), and drain power and it's morphs can create a great amount of threat (also, it allows for the dropping of many veils of blades for added defense.)

Do I wish the mechanics of cloak were better and more reliable? You bet your sweetrolls I do! But it works just enough in those situations where I need it that I still use it in PvP. A sorc can be similarly effective at stealth assassination, so can any of the classes, and I wouldn't want to see it any other way. We all have similar issues with stamina builds too, so 'I don't feel as effective with daggers and medium' is not a nightblade only complaint.

My boy Ravi coming into the war zone. Good post man.

Heya Ryz, and welcome to the arena of opinions btw

Shunravi wrote: »

oren74 wrote: »

What I don't understand is why all the other classes are so darn good at sneaking.

Honestly nobody will be happy until all the classes are exactly the same with abilities that just have different names and do the exact same thing. It's getting close to that now anyway.

• NBs should be the only ones to sneak but be kinda squishy
• DKs should be the only ones to block insane amounts of damage with their shield, but have no AoEs and hit just "ok"
• Sorcs should have high damage rates but be ultra squishy
• And Temps should be great healers, ok at taking damage, and terrible at dishing out damage.

But the strategy right now is to make every class good at everything.

What I don't understand is why we have such rigid classes in a TES game (well, actually I do, but that conflicts with me trying to be argumentative :P )

This game isn't built strictly around class, but instead around 'viable skill options.' The nightblade is not the only stealth class, we simply have more viable stealth options and synergy. Dks are not the only tank class, they simply have more viable tank options and synergy. Sorcs are not the only ranged caster class, they simply have a great number of good ranged spells. Templars are not the only heals, their heals are just better. Any class can adapt to a role, it is simply a matter of compensating for where skills are lacking.

Nightblades, for example, can make supprisingly effective tanks. We simply lack a powerful self heal for those 'oh ****' moments, a bubble or armor defensive buff, and (debatably) good pull comparable to a Dk. A good healer in the group, or equipping a resto in the second bar can compensate for the first, there are options in the fighters guild, resto staff and undaunted lines that can make up for the second (and dodge tanking is a good option too), and drain power and it's morphs can create a great amount of threat (also, it allows for the dropping of many veils of blades for added defense.)

Do I wish the mechanics of cloak were better and more reliable? You bet your sweetrolls I do! But it works just enough in those situations where I need it that I still use it in PvP. A sorc can be similarly effective at stealth assassination, so can any of the classes, and I wouldn't want to see it any other way. We all have similar issues with stamina builds too, so 'I don't feel as effective with daggers and medium' is not a nightblade only complaint.

I have also done Nightblade tanking and healing just to compare it to the other classes.

Tanking compared to other classes. Not only are we missing the heal like Green Dragon blood, or extremely awesome shield like Blazing Shield, but we also are missing one of the most important parts which is crowd control (negate, talons), we are also missing passives for blocking and armor buffs (multiple in sorc line or razor armor). So while yes we can tank we simply are not as built for it as all the other classes are. Can you do it, yes, can you even get through Vet content doing it, yes but you are simply going to have a harder time than any of the other classes. Your big armor buff requires you to use stealth and only lasts 4 second and if you use cloak in combat you instantly lose agro, which is also your only method to drop dots.

Healing you basically get resto staff plus two abilities that in most circumstances are weaker than the resto staff ones. I don't think they are even comparable to a Templar healer but I don't think anyone is. Sorc can buff their weapon damage for bigger heals easily and can exchange stam for Magicka, DK can buff their weapon damage easily and can get back a lot of all resources every time they get to 135 ultimate, less if they have certain sets or emperor. Both of Nightblades unique heals require you to attack and draw extra agro and the one that heals and buffs weapon damage requires you to actually be in melee range of the mobs, and the magicka cost to heal makes them kind of not efficient compared to other heals. The only other unique ability is extra sustain when you attack with siphoning attacks but that also lowers your healing output, which is already at the bottom of the pack. Yes you can heal on a Nightblade but again you are going to have a harder time than any of the other classes.

Can you modify the title of the thread from "Why NB's are actually extremely effective in PvP" to "Why sword and shield and resto staff are actually extremely effective in PvP" please? :P

With a title like "Why NB's are actually extremely effective in PvP," I expected there to be, you know, an explanation for why they are extremely effective. The thread would have been more useful if all it said was "burst damage."