Why NB's are actually extremely effective in PvP

Ryzium · September 2014

Artemis wrote: »

Ryzium wrote: »

they are too stubborn to change the "precious build my NB has to play" *cough cough* the bow/DW NBs

When I picked a class I went for the one that "relies on blades and speed" (official description). I always played physical damage dealers, that's how I have fun. I pay the same subscription fee as you do, why can't I have fun? Why do I have to take it for granted that I need to "change the precious build" of mine in order to be on par with others?

No, I want to play the way I like so of course I want my class synergy with weapons buffed.
Or they should change class descriptions and write explicitly that NB is a class that is good with staves only not to misguide players. And give me (and other misguided players) an opportunity to reroll my class so that I can play the way I like. The class system like that is stupid, they keep saying that every class can do all things and even say that some classes are better in certain things. Well, I picked the only class that wasn't described as a mage. Now in endgame I am no longer having fun.

And you and some people like you keep saying that I need to use my class in a certain way to have fun? WTF? Sure, if NB in stamina builds were OP, I would say the same to people who would try to play it as a mage. But things are different. And I challenge you to prove that my class's synergy with weapons doesn't need to be buffed.

Well, I would love to show you a very viable melee build. If you could give me your favorite weapon and your race I will show it to you

kitsinni · September 2014

The funny thing is nb can do really well with bow or even DW right now but all of the styles you listed would be better with other classes.

david271749 · September 2014

It's just an undercover sorc or dress & stick DK (same thing really)pretending to be a NB who thinks stamina DW/bow builds aren't necessary in the game. We're all very sorry that the mean ole NBs are killing you in Cyrodil. Nothing to see here, guys. Move along.

Ryzium · September 2014

david271749 wrote: »

It's just an undercover sorc or dress & stick DK (same thing really)pretending to be a NB who thinks stamina DW/bow builds aren't necessary in the game. We're all very sorry that the mean ole NBs are killing you in Cyrodil. Nothing to see here, guys. Move along.

Thanks for the constructive feedback. Its really appreciated, and people say the forums are poison and no one tries to make the game better... you are the best

david271749 · September 2014

Ryzium wrote: »

david271749 wrote: »

It's just an undercover sorc or dress & stick DK (same thing really)pretending to be a NB who thinks stamina DW/bow builds aren't necessary in the game. We're all very sorry that the mean ole NBs are killing you in Cyrodil. Nothing to see here, guys. Move along.

Thanks for the constructive feedback. Its really appreciated, and people say the forums are poison and no one tries to make the game better... you are the best

Thanks, and welcome to the forums.

kitsinni · September 2014

Ryzium wrote: »

david271749 wrote: »

It's just an undercover sorc or dress & stick DK (same thing really)pretending to be a NB who thinks stamina DW/bow builds aren't necessary in the game. We're all very sorry that the mean ole NBs are killing you in Cyrodil. Nothing to see here, guys. Move along.

Thanks for the constructive feedback. Its really appreciated, and people say the forums are poison and no one tries to make the game better... you are the best

Your premise is "night blades are fine if you use one of the three main pvp weapons" we already knew that and that has nothing to do with night blades that has to do with staves and shields in PvP. There are plenty of great night blades that don't use the fotm build that every single class uses. I am curious why you think a nb would be better using the fotm weapons than the other classes with real synergies with those weapons?

Ryzium · September 2014

kitsinni wrote: »

Ryzium wrote: »

david271749 wrote: »

It's just an undercover sorc or dress & stick DK (same thing really)pretending to be a NB who thinks stamina DW/bow builds aren't necessary in the game. We're all very sorry that the mean ole NBs are killing you in Cyrodil. Nothing to see here, guys. Move along.

Thanks for the constructive feedback. Its really appreciated, and people say the forums are poison and no one tries to make the game better... you are the best

Your premise is "night blades are fine if you use one of the three main pvp weapons" we already knew that and that has nothing to do with night blades that has to do with staves and shields in PvP. There are plenty of great night blades that don't use the fotm build that every single class uses. I am curious why you think a nb would be better using the fotm weapons than the other classes with real synergies with those weapons?

My premise is NB are balanced with other classes when their class abilities work. regardless of the weapon. I am not saying they are the best at everything but i think they are balanced

Ryzium · September 2014

kitsinni wrote: »

Ryzium wrote: »

david271749 wrote: »

It's just an undercover sorc or dress & stick DK (same thing really)pretending to be a NB who thinks stamina DW/bow builds aren't necessary in the game. We're all very sorry that the mean ole NBs are killing you in Cyrodil. Nothing to see here, guys. Move along.

Thanks for the constructive feedback. Its really appreciated, and people say the forums are poison and no one tries to make the game better... you are the best

Your premise is "night blades are fine if you use one of the three main pvp weapons" we already knew that and that has nothing to do with night blades that has to do with staves and shields in PvP. There are plenty of great night blades that don't use the fotm build that every single class uses. I am curious why you think a nb would be better using the fotm weapons than the other classes with real synergies with those weapons?

I think NBs are viable with any weapon combination

Raeder · September 2014

I think you need to look at the leaderboards. DKs score 33% more AP than NB do, and Sorcs score 25%. That is all you need to look at to see that there is a problem with class balance.

Ryzium · September 2014

Raeder wrote: »

I think you need to look at the leaderboards. DKs score 33% more AP than NB do, and Sorcs score 25%. That is all you need to look at to see that there is a problem with class balance.

I completely disagree, play time and farming is more of a factor in the AP scoring than skill or classes being unbalanced.

Ifthir_ESO · September 2014

Ryzium wrote: »

I challenge a NB to prove to me that their class is under powered and needs a buff.

No inherent class-based shield skill. All other classes have this. All.
No inherent class-based heal that doesn't require me to hit other players.
Our entire class build focuses around DPS and is immediately negated by a shield stacker.

Thats just off the top of my head.

Stx · September 2014

Raeder wrote: »

I think you need to look at the leaderboards. DKs score 33% more AP than NB do, and Sorcs score 25%. That is all you need to look at to see that there is a problem with class balance.

That is simply because NB's are built around smaller scale battles, while AP comes mostly from zerging and AE.

Sorc's and DK's can't drop people from stealth like a NB can. Although Sorc has nice burst.

Aeratus · September 2014

kitsinni wrote: »

I am curious why you think a nb would be better using the fotm weapons than the other classes with real synergies with those weapons?

He never said that fotm NB is better than fotm other classes.

But in any case, for some players, their NB is their main character for pvp, and whether an fotm build (stick, shield, and light armor) for NB is better or worse than an fotm build for other classes is not a relevant question, since they simply don't have another character to play. Then, it only becomes an issue of selecting a build within one class, rather than a build across different classes.

Even though an fotm NB doesn't have the survivability of an fotm sorc/temp/dk, the fotm NB still retains most of the stealth power of the traditional dw/bow type. Thus, the fotm NB is a build with good balance between stealth and sustained combat that you don't find in other builds. In this way, fotm NB does have its distinct flavor to it.

Ryzium · September 2014

Aeratus wrote: »

kitsinni wrote: »

I am curious why you think a nb would be better using the fotm weapons than the other classes with real synergies with those weapons?

He never said that fotm NB is better than fotm other classes.

But in any case, for some players, their NB is their main character for pvp, and whether an fotm build (stick, shield, and light armor) for NB is better or worse than an fotm build for other classes is not a relevant question, since they simply don't have another character to play. Then, it only becomes an issue of selecting a build within one class, rather than a build across different classes.

Even though an fotm NB doesn't have the survivability of an fotm sorc/temp/dk, the fotm NB still retains most of the stealth power of the traditional dw/bow type. Thus, the fotm NB is a build with good balance between stealth and sustained combat that you don't find in other builds. In this way, fotm NB does have its distinct flavor to it.

Real, constructive, conversation has finally come to this thread.

Lionxoft · September 2014

I'd love to have a reliable form of damage mitigation via damage shield or an instant heal. Sure, there's stealth for what it's worth but it's easily broken out, bugged or your opponent simply runs detect pots. There's not a debuff or poison to remove shielding in this game which kind of makes the nightblades a little bit weaker in regards to active mitigation via complete damage point prevention.

Pretty sure that spellcrafting will fulfill at least one of those voids with the school of restoration. Forcing a stam build to carry a resto staff is kinda... Well, counter productive.

Stx · September 2014

Lionxoft wrote: »

I'd love to have a reliable form of damage mitigation via damage shield or an instant heal. Sure, there's stealth for what it's worth but it's easily broken out of or bugged.

Pretty sure that spellcrafting will fulfill at least one of those voids with the school of restoration. Forcing a stam build to carry a resto staff is kinda... Well, counter productive.

Stamina builds lack any kind of survival in this game... which is a problem. Unless of course you have dedicated pocket healers I guess.

reften · September 2014

Love my NB. It's a challenge If I had one button to push over and over I'd be bored.

bosmern_ESO · September 2014

I'm a 2h resto staff NB. It works decent at times but I usually burn through magicka healing myself because how squishy a NB can be (specially my build) and I get no stamina to use my 2h because 90% of the time I'm CC'd.

I rolled a DK and I absolutely love it, I'm using my own build that keeps developing and its unlike most popular DK builds. I'm very effective with it and I don't use talons, standard, or reflective scale. I do use whip and dragon blood but not as much as others (I only use dragon blood if I'mm 1vXing)

I enjoy my NB but I hate how the class has so many useless abilities (how many people do you see use paths, blur, or agony) and the passives for a NB don't synergize with the skill lines not nearly as much as they should. The only tree where the abilities are buffed by passives are siphoning and somewhat of shadow.

aco5712 · September 2014

Blur is actually used quite a bit, if you ever go dueling you will see it being used. I myself use it to stack with hist. Agony is a dumb skill and needs to be replaced with a shield. Path is utter rubbish too

PBpsy · September 2014

Raeder wrote: »

I think you need to look at the leaderboards. DKs score 33% more AP than NB do, and Sorcs score 25%. That is all you need to look at to see that there is a problem with class balance.

The reason for this is pretty obvious. There is no high survivability AOE or AoE/Bats for the Nightblade in pvp. For pve we are beasts if we go magicka based. I like my NB much more then my DK for AoE and single target dps in pve . DKs and Sorcs have the best survivability AoE/Bats since their aoe synergies and survival skill actually work in pvp and so they will have the best AP. You will never see a NB survive more then 5 seconds against 6 player where DK/Sorcs/Templar actually have a chance.

Artis · September 2014

tordr86b16_ESO wrote: »

DW melee build is viable in pve, check this: http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/nightblade-stamina-based-dps-build-dw-viable-and-trials-ready

don't expect to do omg over 9000 aoe dps with it though.

Define viable. It's MUCH MUCH worse than magicka builds. Which means, if people have choice, they might prefer a magicka user. Because no matter how skilled you are, you just mathematically can't reach magicka users' dps. Numbers are just smaller and that's it.

Well, I would love to show you a very viable melee build. If you could give me your favorite weapon and your race I will show it to you

Breton, medium armor, weapons - DW, 2h, bow.
Thanks.

Ryzium · September 2014

Artemis wrote: »

tordr86b16_ESO wrote: »

DW melee build is viable in pve, check this: http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/nightblade-stamina-based-dps-build-dw-viable-and-trials-ready

don't expect to do omg over 9000 aoe dps with it though.

Define viable. It's MUCH MUCH worse than magicka builds. Which means, if people have choice, they might prefer a magicka user. Because no matter how skilled you are, you just mathematically can't reach magicka users' dps. Numbers are just smaller and that's it.

Well, I would love to show you a very viable melee build. If you could give me your favorite weapon and your race I will show it to you

Breton, medium armor, weapons - DW, 2h, bow.
Thanks.

BUILD LINK

Here is your build for PvP, use these set pieces
Warlock (5) - Head Shoulders Rings and Amulet
Of the Air (3) - Chest Legs Boots
Nights Silence or Oblivion's Foe (3/4) - Waist Gloves Weapon/Shield

You will focus sword and shield as your main DPS and use Bow as your buffs and kiting bar/opening bar

Keep elude and double take up to reduce heavy melee damage and you can mitigate allot of spell damage blocking with a shield.

DPS wise you can hit the enemy with surprise attack and repeatedly hit them with ransack to keep your armor up and damage them. Make sure to keep siphoning attacks on while you are tanking damage and turn it off before you try to burst the person down.

Use mass hysteria to force enemies off you with a fear so you can damage them without them being able to block.

A good combo to keep in mind is using one or two magnum shots followed by an invasion, this can give you some quick damage and a fast stun allowing you to get in close to burst with your 2 move spam.

Finally keep dark shades on them the ENTIRE fight, this ability is a stamina drain on block spammers and give them a 30% reduction in overall damage output.

Let me know if you have an questions. Hope this helps.

Zhoyzu · September 2014

Braddass wrote: »

Stx wrote: »

so yeah I'm not sure why people would still say NB's are underpowered.

They are only underpowered if you compare them to DK, Sorc or Templar. Oh wait ...

or if they dont use 1h+S resto/dest

Ryzium · September 2014

Zhoyzu wrote: »

Braddass wrote: »

Stx wrote: »

so yeah I'm not sure why people would still say NB's are underpowered.

They are only underpowered if you compare them to DK, Sorc or Templar. Oh wait ...

or if they dont use 1h+S resto/dest

Or if you are a bad player and don't know how to play your class. If you lack in healing and damage mitigation what is the easiest way to get that??? Resto and 1 hand and shield.

Kvothe · September 2014

Ryzium wrote: »

Artemis wrote: »

tordr86b16_ESO wrote: »

DW melee build is viable in pve, check this: http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/nightblade-stamina-based-dps-build-dw-viable-and-trials-ready

don't expect to do omg over 9000 aoe dps with it though.

Define viable. It's MUCH MUCH worse than magicka builds. Which means, if people have choice, they might prefer a magicka user. Because no matter how skilled you are, you just mathematically can't reach magicka users' dps. Numbers are just smaller and that's it.

Well, I would love to show you a very viable melee build. If you could give me your favorite weapon and your race I will show it to you

Breton, medium armor, weapons - DW, 2h, bow.
Thanks.

Here is your build for PvP, use these set pieces
Warlock (5) - Head Shoulders Rings and Amulet
Of the Air (3) - Chest Legs Boots
Nights Silence or Oblivion's Foe (3/4) - Waist Gloves Weapon/Shield

You will focus sword and shield as your main DPS and use Bow as your buffs and kiting bar/opening bar

Keep elude and double take up to reduce heavy melee damage and you can mitigate allot of spell damage blocking with a shield.

Forgive me for stating the obvious, but, I believe that Artemis requested a Dual Wield (DW) / Bow build and you gave him a Sword and Board. I'd still like to see the DW build when you have the time.

While I have read through this entire post I have yet to see anyone give a good reason why people who chose to play a DW NB should have to pick a different play style in order to be on par with other classes. The closest thing I have seen to useful information here was a link to a build on Tamriel Foundry, and that build depends entirely on animation canceling. Refresh my memory on this one; do all the other classes rely heavily on animation canceling to be viable?

Knootewoot · September 2014

I play V12 NB with DW / Bow. I don't look at DPS or any other numbers. I PvP a lot (although i never get near emperor place, mostly around #100)

Sometimes i kill someone, sometimes i get killed. I think i do pretty good also in 1 vs 1. I can't kill DK's most of the time. I can when they are lvl 35 or so but mostly i hit and hear metal sound and i just have to run. I can kill templars except when they spear me all the time. I can kill Sorc's except when they keep bolting over me or do some lighting strike. I can easily kill other NB, but just as easy as they can kill me. So who sees who first is likely to die. Sometimes i get lucky and they attack and i can get away with stealth and i repear mark them and the hunter is the hunted.

Fact is, i like DW/bow. I do less DPS then a light/magicka/staff NB, but i just like it and i can manage it. Yes, i don't go on trials because of low dps (and i dont want to install dps meter as i dont like numbers)

I dion't understand what i am trying to tell lol

Aeratus · September 2014

Kvothe wrote: »

Ryzium wrote: »

Artemis wrote: »

tordr86b16_ESO wrote: »

DW melee build is viable in pve, check this: http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/nightblade-stamina-based-dps-build-dw-viable-and-trials-ready

don't expect to do omg over 9000 aoe dps with it though.

Define viable. It's MUCH MUCH worse than magicka builds. Which means, if people have choice, they might prefer a magicka user. Because no matter how skilled you are, you just mathematically can't reach magicka users' dps. Numbers are just smaller and that's it.

Well, I would love to show you a very viable melee build. If you could give me your favorite weapon and your race I will show it to you

Breton, medium armor, weapons - DW, 2h, bow.
Thanks.

Here is your build for PvP, use these set pieces
Warlock (5) - Head Shoulders Rings and Amulet
Of the Air (3) - Chest Legs Boots
Nights Silence or Oblivion's Foe (3/4) - Waist Gloves Weapon/Shield

You will focus sword and shield as your main DPS and use Bow as your buffs and kiting bar/opening bar

Keep elude and double take up to reduce heavy melee damage and you can mitigate allot of spell damage blocking with a shield.

Forgive me for stating the obvious, but, I believe that Artemis requested a Dual Wield (DW) / Bow build and you gave him a Sword and Board. I'd still like to see the DW build when you have the time.

While I have read through this entire post I have yet to see anyone give a good reason why people who chose to play a DW NB should have to pick a different play style in order to be on par with other classes. The closest thing I have seen to useful information here was a link to a build on Tamriel Foundry, and that build depends entirely on animation canceling. Refresh my memory on this one; do all the other classes rely heavily on animation canceling to be viable?

Stated succinctly, dw NBs have low survivability in sustained pvp combat because they do not have any skills that can: (1) efficiently heal (2) create damage-absorbing shield; or (3) get out of combat quickly (like sorcs can with bolt escape). Therefore, two potential ways of resolving this include:

1. Use a resto staff and use it to heal yourself during combat. Preferably, use light armor so you can efficiently cast the heal spells, and other shield spells like annulment.

2. Increase your defense by equipping a shield.

Spectrasoul · September 2014

This whole stupid argument (and stupid post) revolves around the idea that "bla bla bla yes NB is perfect and fine if you use Light Armor and some combination of staves and 1h + shield."

Look, that may be the case but the the issue is that those builds (not the class) are imbalanced.

You guys can argue to death about how NB can be one thing or another but I'm telling you now, NB should be at it's strongest when using sneak and sneak related skills. Not a @#![]/#% wood stick of whatever and a god damn dress. Ok if people want to use those things - fine. Please do. It doesn't mean it is the solution for everyone.

It is irritating for me that I'm not at optimal strength when I'm using the mechanics which should benefit my class the most. I'm not saying it can't be done, Surprise attack out of sneak on an unsuspecting victim should be a kill but when it comes to 1vs2-3 or group fights then it becomes very situational and quite frankly inefficient to use. That is what needs working on.

Artis · September 2014

Ryzium wrote: »

Let me know if you have an questions. Hope this helps.

Thanks, man. I believe that LA is viable and SnB is. But you see, I can't go all physical damage

And be like "okay, I can't heal but my damage is so high that it compensates my lack of heals." I would like to take a 2H or DW instead of a shield and expect to deal more damage if I sacrifice tankiness. No, healers, tanks, other classes - all can kill me in this case. So you see? I have to change my play style, I have to use something else instead of what I was misguided to believe I can use

Therefore, NBs needs a buff. Namely, their physical-damage part.

Anyways, I do have questions about your build. What is the idea of sets? To stack stamina regen and stamina?How do I get weapon damage? Shouldn't I stack it instead? Which enchants would I use? What should I max first, second etc?
Because now I am running all stamina enchants - and my damage is ridiculously low. Nothing close to those ~1.7k lethal arrows I take. Best crit I would make was about 900 or so. Nothing close to those flying blade 820 crits or venom arrow ~500 that I see in movies.
It just sucks that to use weapons I need to get weapon damage and crit and to use class skills I need magicka-spell damage. I just want to play a Nightblade! To use weapons and my class skills efficiently.

forthewinn2 · September 2014

Ryzium wrote: »

Finally keep dark shades on them the ENTIRE fight, this ability is a stamina drain on block spammers and give them a 30% reduction in overall damage output.

The dark shades don't stack, so it's only a 15% damage reduction.