Realism or Balance ?

Tapio75 · September 2014

Realism is all i care about in a game such as this.

This crusade for realism is ridiculous. Balance as you want it can never be achieved. If game wants to stay fun and diverse, there can never be balance. Balance kills diversity.

Melee classes should never deal as much damage as mages for example, Light armor should never provide survivability but great bonuses to mages when Heavy armor should give great survivability but hinder your damage. You just cant swing that sword as fast in heavy armor as you can in leather or cloth.

Every build should be different and made for different situations. This is somewhat what the game is now and it is great. Every class is viable in PVE and PVP. In PVE you can do anything alone but in PVP you need a team and tactics to survive with certain builds, there is nothing wrong as this is how it always should remain.

I dont much like these folks who die in PVP since they expect any build to be able to deal damage the same way and any build to survive too. Everyone is not a hero, heroes in PVP are those who can play in teams with skill.

Sure there are some builds that can take anything but they die eventually as well if you play as a team. Having OP classes in PVP is fun because it brings "Boss level" battles to human level. There is nothing wrong if some builds are like that. It is fun to try and slay them as a team, only thing is that they should require extreme skill as well to be OP. I dont know if this is the case since i dont play Boss builds.

Draxuul · September 2014

Realism is all i care about in a game such as this.

Grunim wrote: »

I

I would hope the Devs goal is to strive for balance where players can make diverse and interesting choices while still feeling immersed in an Elder Scrolls world.

I want that too, i'm not against having a balanced game , though i do preffer a game where there is such thing as a good build and a bad build , where the choices that you make will determine how good and how strong your character is, as well as how good you are as a player and how quick you are to react and adjust to the different situations that you may find yourself in.

I would not be able to enjoy a game where the choices that you make don't really matter and where your build does all the work for you.

Personnaly i enjoy the game as is even though i'm not blind to the fact that there might be a few areas that could use some small tweaks in an attempt to correct some of those balancing issues.

My only hope is that whatever changes that they make are not so drastic and radical that you'll wake up one morning only to find that your character has completly changed overnight .

I know i sound paranoid in a lot of my previous posts but i wouldn't be talking about this if i hadn't seen those things happen over and over again in other games.

I simply don't want to see it happen here too , because i'm one of those who enjoy the game as is . Why should i feel like it's wrong for me to enjoy the game as it is .

So many people have told me that this is not the game for me and that i should go play another game. WTF ?? I'm one of the few who actually love this game as it is and don't want it to change and become like those other games lol. Why should i be the one to leave if i'm the one who's happy in the game as it is now.

Doesn't make sense.

Draxuul

Draxuul · September 2014

Realism is all i care about in a game such as this.

Tapio75 wrote: »

This crusade for realism is ridiculous. Balance as you want it can never be achieved. If game wants to stay fun and diverse, there can never be balance. Balance kills diversity.

Melee classes should never deal as much damage as mages for example, Light armor should never provide survivability but great bonuses to mages when Heavy armor should give great survivability but hinder your damage. You just cant swing that sword as fast in heavy armor as you can in leather or cloth.

Every build should be different and made for different situations. This is somewhat what the game is now and it is great. Every class is viable in PVE and PVP. In PVE you can do anything alone but in PVP you need a team and tactics to survive with certain builds, there is nothing wrong as this is how it always should remain.

I dont much like these folks who die in PVP since they expect any build to be able to deal damage the same way and any build to survive too. Everyone is not a hero, heroes in PVP are those who can play in teams with skill.

Sure there are some builds that can take anything but they die eventually as well if you play as a team. Having OP classes in PVP is fun because it brings "Boss level" battles to human level. There is nothing wrong if some builds are like that. It is fun to try and slay them as a team, only thing is that they should require extreme skill as well to be OP. I dont know if this is the case since i dont play Boss builds.

I have to agree with most of your post . Sadly people like us , who don't care about the fact that it is possible for people to create extremely powerful builds are a minority.

It's part of the fun to be able to experience with builds and always try new things and figure out new ways to make your character more powerful. Then if you finaly come across someone you can't defeat, then to me that only brings more interest into the game because it tells me that my build still needs work and forces me to keep trying to improve it .

It gives me a reason to want to keep trying . And another part of that challenge is to create a build that can make you compete at the same lvl as that other guy without copying his build.

Draxuul

Zorrashi · September 2014

I love a somewhat balanced game but i don`t like non sense. (Unable to decide)

I am a bit divided....

One part of me thinks that balance in the terms of ability addition/tweaks is an absolute must, even if it means pushing the lore a bit.
But I always have hard time when people start suggesting the most....out-of-place things like flying mounts and fully-automated (magic) guns. Heck, I am having a hard enough time as it is with the idea that soon, every five out of ten people will try to join and successfully become a part of the Dark Brotherhood once it gets released.

But yes, in general, I will overlook things like adding a 'warcry' buff or 'whirlwind attack. I have had to accept that people have to feel at least significantly powerful and able against any presented challenge in order for any MMO to really sell and prosper. Old-fashioned RPGs simply are not as appealing in comparison. But a few dashes of realism here and there always make me smile a bit on the inside...

Basically, so long as it is relatively within the confines of lore, I'm fine. Should be easy enough given the unique setting of eso.

Artis · September 2014

Balance is an absolute must in a game such as this.

If you wanted a game with realism you wouldn't even start a game that has magic and elves.
When I play, I want to be sure that I can have fun and not just be a source of fun for others, who were more lucky in choosing a play style.

If not balance in every single thing, then they should write explicitly which class excels in what. But since they didn't - oh well, balance everything or let us change a class for free keeping achievements, name, level, items etc.

MiliStarling · September 2014

I love a somewhat balanced game but i don`t like non sense. (Unable to decide)

Most these remarks about "realism" within a high-fantasy world being some absurd oxymoronic notion, are actually, in themselves, a bit absurd and way too extreme ! 'Fantasy' doesn't have to automatically mean absolutely no bounds whatsoever,,,

Believe it or not, some level of grittiness and practical realism actually enhances the sense of mystical, magical,
by creating a solid, more tangible feeling as a foundation to contrast against the fantasy.

Yes, sometimes the intelligence needs to take a backseat to emotion, in order for enjoyment to be fully taken in and embraced in our experience. Of course a fantasy world is always, and always will be, more about art and feeling, than it is about science and reason. But at the same time, art is only insanity without some science underlying it, and science can't progress in any meaningful way without the creative spirit of an artist at its heart.

Draxuul · September 2014

Realism is all i care about in a game such as this.

Artemis wrote: »

If you wanted a game with realism you wouldn't even start a game that has magic and elves.

Once again that exact same argument that so many people use as if the fact that there are elves in a game mean that everything goes and we can start having pink swords that spit goo and green clouds that say :"menoum menoum" everytime you pass under it and popcorn that sings acuna matata but only if you step on it with sandals.

I'm really tired of people using that same argument , first it means they haven't read the OP and second , they're not willing to take the time to make a constructive argument to make a point .

There are Elves in this game so OBVIOUSLY we cannot expect any kidna of realism so yeah, just give me power, i'm feeling underpowered .

grimjim398 · September 2014

Are you serious? Realism? Do you want to take off your armor every time you cross a river? Do you want to oil your sword every few hours to keep it from rusting? Do you want to get tired every twenty yards when you run in armor that weighs probably 60 pounds? There were knights in the middle ages who had heart attacks during the battles just from the weight of the armor. How many times do you think you'd surviving having a pot of boiling oil poured on you?

Draxuul · September 2014

Realism is all i care about in a game such as this.

grimjim398 wrote: »

Are you serious? Realism? Do you want to take off your armor every time you cross a river? Do you want to oil your sword every few hours to keep it from rusting? Do you want to get tired every twenty yards when you run in armor that weighs probably 60 pounds? There were knights in the middle ages who had heart attacks during the battles just from the weight of the armor. How many times do you think you'd surviving having a pot of boiling oil poured on you?

Awww, the art of taking things to the extreme to make a point.

I've actually used that in the post just above yours only i was on the other side of the extremes.

So i guess if we take your post and mine and we find the middle , we can have a game that is both fun and enjoyable but without sinking too deeply into non sense.

Draxuul

MiliStarling · September 2014

I love a somewhat balanced game but i don`t like non sense. (Unable to decide)

grimjim398 wrote: »

Are you serious? Realism? Do you want to take off your armor every time you cross a river? Do you want to oil your sword every few hours to keep it from rusting? Do you want to get tired every twenty yards when you run in armor that weighs probably 60 pounds? There were knights in the middle ages who had heart attacks during the battles just from the weight of the armor. How many times do you think you'd surviving having a pot of boiling oil poured on you?

Too extreme. We're not talking absolutes here. Yes, definitely some relative level of realism is necessary within the experience, in order for the magic to even feel magical.

EDIT: Sorry for redundant post, didn't see Draxuul's well stated response before posting mine.

Nocturnalis · September 2014

Balance is an absolute must in a game such as this.

Draxuul wrote: »

...we can start having pink swords that spit goo and green clouds that say :"menoum menoum" everytime you pass under it and popcorn that sings acuna matata but only if you step on it with sandals.

Sounds like some of the experiences I had in my younger years.

Draxuul · September 2014

Realism is all i care about in a game such as this.

Nocturnalis wrote: »

Draxuul wrote: »

...we can start having pink swords that spit goo and green clouds that say :"menoum menoum" everytime you pass under it and popcorn that sings acuna matata but only if you step on it with sandals.

Sounds like some of the experiences I had in my younger years.

Exactly , there is such a thing as kids fantasy and a fantasy more suitable for a more mature audience. Preferably this game will keep aiming for the more mature audience.

And you haven't quoted my entire post. Quoting that part of the post alone kinda removes the whole point of why i said it .

Nocturnalis · September 2014

Balance is an absolute must in a game such as this.

Draxuul wrote: »

Exactly , there is such a thing as kids fantasy and a fantasy more suitable for a more mature audience. Preferably this game will keep aiming for the more mature audience.

And you haven't quoted my entire post. Quoting that part of the post alone kinda removes the whole point of why i said it .

Sorry... a misunderstanding.

I found that part of the post funny and intendended to make a joke about it being similar to some, uh - a "recreational" experience I had as a teenager.

No need to feel defensive. I agree on the realism thing, I just think it would be better to be called "suspension of disbelief" and how the game world achieves this via lore and game mechanics.

Elf_Boy · September 2014

Draxuul wrote: »

Before you cast your vote please read.

Would you preffer a game that focuses mostly on balance which pretty much means a game that at some point or another will be forced to add abilities that do not make any kind of sense whatsoever .

Or a game that mainly focuses on realism in order to offer their player the best experience of what a magical world could be like without drowning too deeply into non sense??

This is a completely and totally flawed premise.

Balance changes do not automatically not make sense.

I suspect what you really mean is that they would not be what you agree with.

Artis · September 2014

Balance is an absolute must in a game such as this.

Draxuul wrote: »

Artemis wrote: »

I'm really tired of people using that same argument , first it means they haven't read the OP and second , they're not willing to take the time to make a constructive argument to make a point .

There are Elves in this game so OBVIOUSLY we cannot expect any kidna of realism so yeah, just give me power, i'm feeling underpowered .

I did read the OP. I have enough realism in real world. When I play, I want to enjoy the game, not to be restricted by it. What I said is a point. A pretty strong one. If you can't argue with it, it doesn't mean that I didn't take time to make a point. I did. You didn't and instead started trying to make some conclusions about a person who wrote something you don't like.

p.s. Speaking of realism, don't forget about the mass of golden coins lol.

Arizona_Willie · September 2014

Realism is all i care about in a game such as this.

When in battles and your enemy can shoot through walls and rocks and you CAN'T that seems pretty darn unbalanced and unfair to me.

jamie.goddenrwb17_ESO · September 2014

Balance is an absolute must in a game such as this.

Arizona_Willie wrote: »

When in battles and your enemy can shoot through walls and rocks and you CAN'T that seems pretty darn unbalanced and unfair to me.

Yeah I don't think they quite have their LOS mechanics worked out yet eh?

Arizona_Willie · September 2014

Realism is all i care about in a game such as this.

Another unrealistic aspect to the game is our horses.

If you don't feed them there are no bad consequences. The horse still works. Doesn't even seem to slow them down. The game will tell you to feed your horse ( or is that an add-on? ) but if you don't ... the horse doesn't die.

And then, once you max your horse's slots out ... you never have to feed it again!!

Draxuul · September 2014

Realism is all i care about in a game such as this.

Arizona_Willie wrote: »

Another unrealistic aspect to the game is our horses.

If you don't feed them there are no bad consequences. The horse still works. Doesn't even seem to slow them down. The game will tell you to feed your horse ( or is that an add-on? ) but if you don't ... the horse doesn't die.

And then, once you max your horse's slots out ... you never have to feed it again!!

I never fed my horse a single time and he's fine lol . I think the only purpose of feeding horses is to give them bonuses to stamina or speed or carry capacity. I also think that those bonuses have a specific duration and that once that duration is expired you simply lose the bonus and then you need to feed it again to regain that bonus .

But yes you're right , you do not need to feed your horse if you're like me and you don't care about those bonuses .

Though i care about realism a great deal in an MMO, those kinds of things are not really my main concern.

My main concern is with the melee combat . Right now , though certainly not 100% realistic , the melee abilities and/or weapon abilities are not too deeply sunk into non sense . I can live with them . I'm just really afraid that this might change because of all the complaints ZoS are getting about imbalance issues.

I certainly would not spit on more realism in this game but i'm not getting my hopes up too much , i simply wish that they won't remove the little bit of realism that we we have right now .

Draxuul

Talrenos · September 2014

I just don`t care and i wish people would stop talking about this

Draxuul wrote: »

Before you cast your vote please read.

Would you preffer a game that focuses mostly on balance which pretty much means a game that at some point or another will be forced to add abilities that do not make any kind of sense whatsoever .

Now that you know my thoughts on the subject, feel free to cast your vote and share your own thoughts .

You got it all wrong, its realism or Balance or ElderScrollsOnline. You only get one of the three.

soulclaw · September 2014

Balance is an absolute must in a game such as this.

Game balance trumps realism every time in any sort of multiplayer game.

Draxuul · September 2014

Realism is all i care about in a game such as this.

Talrenos wrote: »

Draxuul wrote: »

Before you cast your vote please read.

Would you preffer a game that focuses mostly on balance which pretty much means a game that at some point or another will be forced to add abilities that do not make any kind of sense whatsoever .

Now that you know my thoughts on the subject, feel free to cast your vote and share your own thoughts .

You got it all wrong, its realism or Balance or ElderScrollsOnline. You only get one of the three.

Lol there is some truth in that .

Anyways i've gotten to a point where , after much much thinking , i'm not even that worried anymore.

As you said this is Elder Scrolls Online , i don't believe that Bethesda would allow Zenimax to ruin the Elder Scrolls Franchise by completly transforming combat in ways that it doesn't feel like an Elder Scrolls game anymore, no matter how much people complain about imbalance.

And that was my main concern from the start. Maybe they will lose subs if they don't succeed at making everyone happy but that is always to be expected. At some point maybe the Elder Scrolls fans will represent most of the population on these servers but hey, so far the Elder Scrolls Fans have been numerous enough for Bethesda to keep releasing new Elder Scrolls game for over a decade and now it even has it's own MMO so yeah, if thats what it's gonna get down to, we, the Elder Scrolls fans, will keep those servers running .

My only fear was that combat would change to appease the majority and in the process would lose the Elder Scrolls feel. Which has a more mature and realistic feel than most other games out there.

Draxuul

AngryNord · September 2014

Draxuul wrote: »

I never fed my horse a single time and he's fine lol . I think the only purpose of feeding horses is to give them bonuses to stamina or speed or carry capacity. I also think that those bonuses have a specific duration and that once that duration is expired you simply lose the bonus and then you need to feed it again to regain that bonus .

Not true, they're permanent

Draxuul · September 2014

Realism is all i care about in a game such as this.

AngryNord wrote: »

Draxuul wrote: »

I never fed my horse a single time and he's fine lol . I think the only purpose of feeding horses is to give them bonuses to stamina or speed or carry capacity. I also think that those bonuses have a specific duration and that once that duration is expired you simply lose the bonus and then you need to feed it again to regain that bonus .

Not true, they're permanent

Realy ??
haha , i never knew that , now i'm wondering where i got the notion that those buffs were temporary. Because that is the only reason why i never fed my horse . I don't like using consumables because then you get used to the bonuses they provide and when you don't have those bonuses you start to miss them.

So i never use consumables and that way i can't get used to them. But if the buff is permanent, i think i might do an exception lol.

thanks for the heads up

Draxuul

AngryNord · September 2014

They're not consumables in Your Inventory, you pay for them, and the effect gets Applied to Your horse immediately.

Draxuul · September 2014

Realism is all i care about in a game such as this.

AngryNord wrote: »

They're not consumables in Your Inventory, you pay for them, and the effect gets Applied to Your horse immediately.

ok but i still called them consumables because before your post i thought that you had to keep buying them everytime the effect expired.

And the fact that it get consumed by your horse kinda makes it logical to call them consumables.

Anyways , not that it matters .

Draxuul

Guppet · September 2014

Balance is an absolute must in a game such as this.

Draxuul wrote: »

AngryNord wrote: »

Draxuul wrote: »

I never fed my horse a single time and he's fine lol . I think the only purpose of feeding horses is to give them bonuses to stamina or speed or carry capacity. I also think that those bonuses have a specific duration and that once that duration is expired you simply lose the bonus and then you need to feed it again to regain that bonus .

Not true, they're permanent

Realy ??
haha , i never knew that , now i'm wondering where i got the notion that those buffs were temporary. Because that is the only reason why i never fed my horse . I don't like using consumables because then you get used to the bonuses they provide and when you don't have those bonuses you start to miss them.

So i never use consumables and that way i can't get used to them. But if the buff is permanent, i think i might do an exception lol.

thanks for the heads up

Draxuul

You never use consumables? In that case at VR5 onwards your stats are all 280 lower than they could be. Food gives you 280 to every stat, that's a massive bonus.

I hope your not doing any group activities without food buffs, as that's expecting others to carry you. Your performance will be a good 20% lower than it should be.

Draxuul · September 2014

Realism is all i care about in a game such as this.

Guppet wrote: »

Your performance will be a good 20% lower than it should be.

There is a big nuance between the words COULD and SHOULD here.

Food is a consumable and has a duration which makes it optional . It's meant to make your life easier in a difficult situation but considering that the game is pretty much a lot easier than it SHOULD be , i'm willing to bet that Trials could be done without anyone in the group using any consummables other than potions if their magicka or stamina gets too low. And i'll even bet that it could be done without potions as well.

Would that make it harder ? of course it would . But could it be done ? i'm willing to bet it can.

So yeah the proper word to use in your statement is COULD , not SHOULD.

Draxuul

Marthenil · September 2014

Balance is an absolute must in a game such as this.

The problem is, "realism" and magic cannot go together.
Because "magic" is such an arbitrary thing, while realism is clearly defined by the rules of our own universe, in which magic does not exist.

So first, you need to decide WHAT magic is and how it works.
Can people make stars go supernova? Or can they merely throw fireballs?
A sword is a sword, a weapon designed for our own, magic-less universe.
A shield is a shield, a weapon designed for our own, magic-less universe.
But what is a fireball? Is it just fire? Is it like a ball of molten magma?
How big is it?

First, you need to define that, then you can talk faux-realism (As in every setting that incorporates magic, true realism cannot be achieved).

As far as knights and mages go, I always thought the distinction to be laughable.
Why the hell not both?
Well the reason is clearly balance. The invention of restrictive heavy armor (which is laughable, go watch some videos of people doing rolls in heavy armor) is a perfect example.
Why wear cloth when you can wear plate and have the best of both worlds?
Why limit yourself to magic only when you can do both?

Draxuul · September 2014

Realism is all i care about in a game such as this.

Marthenil wrote: »

.

As far as knights and mages go, I always thought the distinction to be laughable.
Why the hell not both?
Well the reason is clearly balance. The invention of restrictive heavy armor (which is laughable, go watch some videos of people doing rolls in heavy armor) is a perfect example.
Why wear cloth when you can wear plate and have the best of both worlds?
Why limit yourself to magic only when you can do both?

i know you can't achieve true realism in a world that has magic . But at the risk of repeating myself once again, a game can have magic without sinking too deep into non sense . Something most other games did not even try to do .

I'm happy with the game as is , yes it has magic, no not everything makes sense, no it's not 100% realistic , of course it isn't , but the melee combat isn't too ridiculous. I still feel that my sword has a certain weight and i can't swing it like i would a plastic sword.

I also can't spin as fast as if i was some professional figure skater holding a sword and cutting through everything and everyone stupid enough to get close to me and then continue fighting as if i shouldn't be dizzy as hell after spinning like that.

Yes a game like this that has magic in it will have some non sense . At least this one isn't as bad as all of the others and i simply want it to stay this way.

Now about the part of your post that i quoted, in this game you CAN be both. You can be a mage in heavy armor , you CAN do what you want , yet some people still limit themselves for some reason and then claim that the game is unbalanced and claim that they can't do what they want.

Because what they want is to limit themselves and still be able to compete with those who don't limit themselves.

They want to be able to use only stamina and be as effective in combat as someone who doesn't limit himself to using only one resource.

They also claim that this game favors mages . Well in theory, everyone in this game is a mage because we all have magicka and are all able to use it .

I'm sure you'll agree with me when i say that a mage who refuses to use magic isn't going to be a very powerful one .

Same as a mechanic who thinks he can fix everything with his favourite hammer but then complains that other mechanics are better than him . Well that might be because they use every tools in their toolbox instead of just that one hammer.

The only people who complain about imbalances in this game are those who refuse to use magicka as if they simply didn't accept that it's a part of them just like everyone else.

Draxuul