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What all the pro bow users are doing in pvp now.
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Honfold✭✭✭Kewljag_66_ESO wrote: »ArconSeptim wrote: »This OP is whiner, I had enourmuous count of NB encounter and they all got killed or run away from me, I'm a DK and this is not a template for others, they key is just knowing how to counter idiots with bows.
DK counter = Green Dragon blood, hold block can't be killed by physical damage. Not Rocket Surgery.
Until they run out of stamina, then blocking does nothing. DW flurry's combined with NB ability Dark Shades will drain a blocking DKs stamina pretty fast. If a DK is spending all his magika on heals he is not doing any damage to you or will have anything left to hurt you with. Basically with DKs you just have to empty their resource pools to beat them but it is much easier than you would think.
After they run out of stamina? Just pop Reflective scales then GDB again and voila. In addition, if this is just a fight on the outskirts of a battle then there is a time limit on the encounter until more allies or enemies show up.0 -
Kewljag_66_ESO✭✭✭✭✭Kewljag_66_ESO wrote: »ArconSeptim wrote: »This OP is whiner, I had enourmuous count of NB encounter and they all got killed or run away from me, I'm a DK and this is not a template for others, they key is just knowing how to counter idiots with bows.
DK counter = Green Dragon blood, hold block can't be killed by physical damage. Not Rocket Surgery.
Until they run out of stamina, then blocking does nothing. DW flurry's combined with NB ability Dark Shades will drain a blocking DKs stamina pretty fast. If a DK is spending all his magika on heals he is not doing any damage to you or will have anything left to hurt you with. Basically with DKs you just have to empty their resource pools to beat them but it is much easier than you would think.
It actually takes quite a long time to run them out of stamina. Also Green Dragon Blood buffs stamina regen by 30%. By this point in the game most PvPers are eating the purple food that buffs all three stats. Even with no points in Stamina, no gear and no glyphs in it I hit over 1500 stam. Not to mention DK's have passives that restore stamina and they can get a ton back by using the cheapest ultimate in the game.
With my current Build, I am all offense with Bow, but with my high stamina build it actually gives me a very nice swapping defensive DW Build. I use the medium armor dodge skill (22%) and Blur (15%) it doenst sound like much but togeather it seems to make half the attacks on me miss. The Dark shades skill also makes the target do 15% less damage to me. I have 2420 stamina so I can really unleash alot of Blinding Flurry chains that hit hard. DKs are always surprised that i am not dieing and i am actually releasing flurry assaults on them along with my shades attacking them. They back up blocking and repeatly healing. After about the 5th Flurry chain they run out of stamina and then i see a 1500 to 2000 damage flurry chain and a dead DK. I rarely have to pop a potion or my ultimate.Edited by Kewljag_66_ESO on September 3, 2014 12:23AM1 -
Varicite✭✭✭✭✭
✭Wait, people are "hiding" animation cancelling?
Since when?
And how exactly do you "hide" something as simple as using an ability after a light attack?
Also, ZOS is fully aware of light attack weaving and has already commented on it here in the forums.
I believe their response was something to the effect of: "We didn't really foresee this happening, but it's not really an exploit".Edited by Varicite on September 3, 2014 1:04AM1 -
Tamanous✭✭✭✭✭AlienDiplomat wrote: »
Nothing is stopping you from light attacking before any ability you use. Why don't YOU learn to play instead of crying for ZOS to change the way the game is built because you don't like how everyone ELSE is playing?
Just a thought.
How about you learn how much of an impact animation cancelling is having on the game. It isn't something your should simply "learn" because it can be done. It is something causing massive balance issues and flat out negating specific mechanics in game. It makes haste pointless, TTK insanely low, some abilities completely pointless, destroys resource cost per damage balance and impacts certain weapons and classes that do not have the perfect skills to maximize the tactic.
Animation cancelling is legal exploitation of the current system as it stands. It is the same as saying zerg balls and certain one skill "I win" spam are meant to be in game.
The game would be FAR better without it so players do not feel completely obligated to use it. GCD exists for a reason and the game can't be simply about how you can spam 1-2 most effective instant attacks with light attacks. That is horrific game design.
Weaving is one thing and many players enjoy such game play (many games have used it before as the core mechanic for some classes) but it is being used in ESO in way that goes against logic. When doing it causes game balance issues and negates mechanics is it exploitation and not balanced game play.
Now it is just a matter of time for ZoS to wake up and understand the issues with how it currently works. I DO NOT condone removing it from the game but there must be a way for them to simply lock the animation ever so slightly longer so light, heavy and even skills cannot be clipped so much. It makes combat flat out silly watching your character do jiggle fits spamming incomplete animations and offers no time for defensive reactions. It in fact negates the ability to defensively react in most cases. Proof that it is simply a game mechanic fault is having resource driven skills being able to be clipped as well. That is flat out broken.Edited by Tamanous on September 3, 2014 1:17AM8 -
Honfold✭✭✭AlienDiplomat wrote: »
Nothing is stopping you from light attacking before any ability you use. Why don't YOU learn to play instead of crying for ZOS to change the way the game is built because you don't like how everyone ELSE is playing?
Just a thought.
How about you learn how much of an impact animation cancelling is having on the game. It isn't something your should simply "learn" because it can be done. It is something causing massive balance issues and flat out negating specific mechanics in game. It makes haste pointless, TTK insanely low, some abilities completely pointless and impacts certain weapons and classes that do not have the perfect skills to maximize the tactic.
Animation cancelling is legal exploitation of the current system as it stands. It is the same as saying zerg balls and certain one skill "I win" spam are meant to be in game.
The game would be FAR better without it so players do not feel completely obligated to use it. GCD exists for a reason and the game can't be simply about how you can spam 1-2 most effective instant attacks with light attacks. That is horrific game design.
If they nerf animation canceling do you have any idea how useless any stamina build would be? Zenimax would have to change a lot of mechanics in order for this to happen, and I don't think it is worth the time.
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Varicite✭✭✭✭✭
✭Animation cancelling is legal exploitation of the current system as it stands.
Hmm, you say it's an exploit.
@ZOS_JessicaFolsom said: "Not exactly intended, but not an exploit."
Gonna go out on a limb here and say that just because you want to call it an exploit doesn't actually make it so.
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ExiledKhallisi✭✭✭✭✭timidobserver wrote: »Or pick up a shield and lol @ lethal arrow. On about the 4-5th venom arrow start cc spamming. Their stam should be low at that point.
Unless the player knows what hese doing....Throw caltrops at you and watch you block your Stamina to 0......
>>>>>>>>(DC)Guild Master of Biestas 250+ Active Members<<<<<<<<||||||Vr14 Sorc: Darkened Soul vr14 Templar: Tiffaney||||||“Let your plans be dark and impenetrable as night, and when you move, fall like a thunderbolt.”
― Sun Tzu, The Art of War0 -
tordr86b16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭ArconSeptim wrote: »This OP is whiner, I had enourmuous count of NB encounter and they all got killed or run away from me, I'm a DK and this is not a template for others, they key is just knowing how to counter idiots with bows.
DK and blocking should be nerfed, including a massive nerf to dragon scales. If there is someone that is stupidly OP it's Dragon Lols. The day ZOS includes a way to counter your bollox will be the day I gloat over your corpse.
Edited by tordr86b16_ESO on September 3, 2014 2:24AM2 -
tordr86b16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭Kewljag_66_ESO wrote: »ArconSeptim wrote: »This OP is whiner, I had enourmuous count of NB encounter and they all got killed or run away from me, I'm a DK and this is not a template for others, they key is just knowing how to counter idiots with bows.
DK counter = Green Dragon blood, hold block can't be killed by physical damage. Not Rocket Surgery.
Until they run out of stamina, then blocking does nothing. DW flurry's combined with NB ability Dark Shades will drain a blocking DKs stamina pretty fast. If a DK is spending all his magika on heals he is not doing any damage to you or will have anything left to hurt you with. Basically with DKs you just have to empty their resource pools to beat them but it is much easier than you would think.
It actually takes quite a long time to run them out of stamina. Also Green Dragon Blood buffs stamina regen by 30%. By this point in the game most PvPers are eating the purple food that buffs all three stats. Even with no points in Stamina, no gear and no glyphs in it I hit over 1500 stam. Not to mention DK's have passives that restore stamina and they can get a ton back by using the cheapest ultimate in the game.
Yep, DK's are OP compared to NB.1 -
Draxuul✭✭✭butterfly442 wrote: »
Or Zenimax could fix all this animation canceling and let people play the way they want to.
The animation canceling is not the problem. It actually would be a problem if you weren`t able to cancel a move that you did accidently or something .
I remember watching a video from Beta on youtube and the guy was trying to figure out how to cancel drawing his bow and the attack just wouldn`t cancel and the arrow would get fired anyways and he would get pissed off because of it .
We need to keep being able to cancel an action mid way but the thing is, the attack itself needs to be canceled with the animation and not do damage.
Sometimes when i`m fighting i start a power attack and notice the boss or whatever NPC is starting one as well so i release my left click and right click to block. The animation cancels itself but i still do the damage of my power attack as well as blocking the ennemy`s power attack.
I don`t think that this was intended by the devs, It does feel like it was a simply an error in the coding . But i guess they`re just not in a hurry to fix it because it`s not one of those bugs that crashes the game or one of those bugs that keeps you from finishing a quest or anything like that .
So it`s probably low priority. Though sometimes i simply release my left mouse button mid way from completing a power attack and the animation kinda stops and lands a hit right away instead of finishing the long animation of a power attack . But the thing is that the transition is so fluid that i`m actually wondering if that might have been intentional. I wouldn`t even call this animation canceling because i`m not pressing a button to cancel it , i simply release a button before attack has landed .
DraxuulBe who you want to be , do what you want to do, play the way you want to play.
The Prophet once said :``There is no perfect choice , there are only other choices. ``
Same goes for your build. There is no perfect build, there are only other builds.
My name is Draxuul and i approve this message .0 -
Stx✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭What's funny about this is that magicka users can and have been doing this exact same thing forever... except they do more damage!
Oh and they can heal 10x better than bow users can.
But that's none of my business...2 -
Phinix1✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The game has been out 5 months. Pretty much every video and strategy guide have all mentioned it. It has been posted about hundreds of times on this forum and every ESO forum and reddit time and time again. ESO acknowledged that they know it is happening and is not an exploit. It is pretty much impossible to make the argument that ZOS doesn't know exactly how much it is used. Yet they have never put in anything to change it, have never mentioned any intent to change it and have never said anything negative about the use of it. How much more do you really need to know that ZOS knows it is used and doesn't care?
Strawman. I'm not saying that they're not aware of it. There are a whole load of issues that have been extant for the lifetime of this game that haven't been fixed yet. Champion System, Werewolves, stamina vs magicka balance, class balance... forgive them if they've got a lot on their plate to chew through. Sorting out animation cancelling is going to require a huge rewrite. I know I wouldn't go near it until I had a handle on the rest first. Given that, would you think it wise to even say "we're working on it"? They're already getting screamed at over the loyalty system promised in September, and we're only two days in.
ZOS said it wasn't anticipated people would use it the way it is being used. Obviously it was intended, to allow you to easily cancel an outbound action to react better to changing conditions in an active combat system.
Otherwise you would be sitting there like a derping idiot waiting for your long animation to hit while getting pummeled by a heavy attack to the face that started coming at you half a second AFTER you cast your ability, unable to adapt on the fly because someone on the forums made it his personal crusade to force you to watch every animation all the way through like a 3rd party observer, at the expense of fluid, dynamic, and immersive combat.
Can you imagine how terrible combat would be without the ability to adapt on the fly by cancelling abilities to block, bash, etc.? I am truly sorry if your brain doesn't move fast enough to enjoy the dynamic and adaptable combat system as it is, as thousands of others do, but ZOS should NOT make this a turn-based whack-a-mole because you personally feel the current design is "cheating," in spite of all evidence to the contrary including from those (ZOS) that made the rules.
Sorry man, but that's pretty damn selfish.1 -
Phinix1✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭butterfly442 wrote: »
Or Zenimax could fix all this animation canceling and let people play the way they want to.
The animation canceling is not the problem. It actually would be a problem if you weren`t able to cancel a move that you did accidently or something .
I remember watching a video from Beta on youtube and the guy was trying to figure out how to cancel drawing his bow and the attack just wouldn`t cancel and the arrow would get fired anyways and he would get pissed off because of it .
We need to keep being able to cancel an action mid way but the thing is, the attack itself needs to be canceled with the animation and not do damage.
OK, I am going to point this out in spite of not being able to take this or the dozen other ill-informed threads on this topic seriously anymore.
Animation canceling DOES lower damage.
Try this experiment. Hold down your attack button until your bowstring is all the way back, and let it go. Write down the damage it does (addons like Combat Cloud help a lot).
Now, attack again, only this time only hold down attack until the string is about half way back, and record THAT number. Notice anything? That's right.
Heavy attack damage scales based on how long you hold down the button.
That means that trying to weave ("animation cancel") heavy attacks with abilities will be seriously gimping the heavy attack damage, to the point they are barely doing more than light attacks.
This is true for staff, bow, 2H, you name it.
Edited by Phinix1 on September 3, 2014 9:24AM4 -
Pele✭✭✭✭✭
Well said. I wish I could click agree and awesome.AlienDiplomat wrote: »This has nothing to do with weapon cancelling.
I don't even play a nightblade, or use bow, OR PVP, and even I know this is just another thread trying to get what they want by making generalizing assumptions about a playstyle they recently got killed by.
Rock: Nerf paper, scissors is fine.
Scissors: Nerf rock, paper is fine.
Paper: Nerf Scissors, rock is fine.
I am so sick of this crap, but mostly because ZOS more than any other gaming company in my 20 years of gaming seems to bend over backwards to cater to it, which just encourages more uninformed assumption threads like this. No offense OP.
A staff and light armor player could just as easily stack spell damage and magicka (more easily, actually), and hold block while spamming an instant cast ability after putting 3 or 4 shields on themselves.
"OMG! We should take away all instant cast abilities! Or give you a 3 second cooldown on being able to block after using an instant cast ability."
More amazing to me than the ridiculousness of this post is that ANY stamina user has managed to find ANY build that is even REMOTELY competitive in ANYTHING.
The balance between magicka and stamina users is sickeningly bad to the point of being a deal breaker in this game, for me, personally. Your mileage may vary.
Nothing is stopping you from light attacking before any ability you use. Why don't YOU learn to play instead of crying for ZOS to change the way the game is built because you don't like how everyone ELSE is playing?
Just a thought.
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MorHawk✭✭✭✭✭AlienDiplomat wrote: »ZOS said it wasn't anticipated people would use it the way it is being used. Obviously it was intended, to allow you to easily cancel an outbound action to react better to changing conditions in an active combat system.
Otherwise you would be sitting there like a derping idiot waiting for your long animation to hit while getting pummeled by a heavy attack to the face...
Can you imagine how terrible combat would be without the ability to adapt on the fly by cancelling abilities to block, bash, etc.? I am truly sorry if your brain doesn't move fast enough to enjoy the dynamic and adaptable combat system as it is...Sorry man, but that's pretty damn selfish.
Le sigh. One slow clap for you. I'm not gonna use the S word (I'm so very sick of the inane quibbling over what counts as what fallacy), but I never said that the ability to cancel attacks with blocks should be removed.
I'm saying that if your attack doesn't complete, you shouldn't get credit for it. Sure, if you're charging up a big ol' Crystal Shard, and someone comes out of nowhere with a greatsword aimed at your chops, feel free to drop what you're doing and put something inbetween the big metal thing and your face, but don't expect that Shard to continue of its own volition.
And besides, this isn't always about dropping to block and getting credit for a half-baked attack. In this thread, the weaving of Venom Arrow and Bow light attacks is mentioned often. How exactly would it harm dynamic combat by forcing each of those two attacks, and many others, to wait until the other has completed?Edited by MorHawk on September 3, 2014 12:54PMI can count to potato.
WWJLHD?Hypertionb14_ESO wrote: »another topic that cant see past its own farts.0 -
kitsinni✭✭✭✭✭AlienDiplomat wrote: »ZOS said it wasn't anticipated people would use it the way it is being used. Obviously it was intended, to allow you to easily cancel an outbound action to react better to changing conditions in an active combat system.
Otherwise you would be sitting there like a derping idiot waiting for your long animation to hit while getting pummeled by a heavy attack to the face...
Can you imagine how terrible combat would be without the ability to adapt on the fly by cancelling abilities to block, bash, etc.? I am truly sorry if your brain doesn't move fast enough to enjoy the dynamic and adaptable combat system as it is...Sorry man, but that's pretty damn selfish.
Le sigh. One slow clap for you. I'm not gonna use the S word (I'm so very sick of the inane quibbling over what counts as what fallacy), but I never said that the ability to cancel attacks with blocks should be removed. Just a big ol' assumption on your part, but hey, you fit right in on these boards.
I'm saying that if your attack doesn't complete, you shouldn't get credit for it. Sure, if you're charging up a big ol' Crystal Shard, and someone comes out of nowhere with a greatsword aimed at your chops, feel free to drop what you're doing and put something inbetween the big metal thing and your face, but don't expect that Shard to continue of its own volition.
And besides, this isn't always about dropping to block and getting credit for a half-baked attack. In this thread, the weaving of Venom Arrow and Bow light attacks is mentioned often. How exactly would it harm dynamic combat by forcing each of those two attacks, and many others, to wait until the other has completed?
Then stop arguing what fallacies are you either are not as smart as you think you are or you need to take a few more classes before presenting your argument.
It is pretty simple attacks have a priority system in this game and there is no global cool down. That was the intended design. They didn't foresee exactly how it would be used but it is extremely common for games to end up not exactly like the devs thought they would. There is a long history of game mechanics that were not intended but worked within the confines of how the game was made and the developers adjust content to it more often than change the entire mechanics of combat.
It is pretty simple light attacks are instant, the animation is just for you to see it isn't a cool down. When you do a higher priority attack the animation is canceled because again it is just animation not a cool down. You seem to be arguing that there is a cool down but ZOS stated there is not. The game does make you finish the animation if you don't use a higher priority attack before you can do another light attack.
The difference you seem to be missing is the whole aspect of it being an animation or a cool down. It is a kind of tricky distinction but it is there. The system was not designed for cool downs and it was designed for priority attacks, people simply took more advantage of the mechanics than anticipated. Trust me when they developed things like Vet CoH, trials, and Craglron the guilds that tested that content used animation canceling and that went in to how they scaled the content. Look at the guilds that had access to the test server before it went public those guilds were some of the first ones to make videos and posts about how to do animation canceling. It isn't like ZOS was in the dark on the issue.1 -
MorHawk✭✭✭✭✭Then stop arguing what fallacies are you either are not as smart as you think you are or you need to take a few more classes before presenting your argument.
You lost me right there. Come back when you can discuss without making it personal.I can count to potato.
WWJLHD?Hypertionb14_ESO wrote: »another topic that cant see past its own farts.1 -
Brizz✭✭✭✭Sounds like I may have killed this guy...:.,_,.:*"'"*:.,_,.:*"'"* Guild of Shadows *"'":.,_,.:*"'"*:.,_,.:
Briizz - v14 EP Werewolf Nightblade <Former Emperor - Chillrend NA>
Brizz The Elder Dragon - v14 EP Dragon Knight
Brizz - v12 DC Nightblade <Former Emperor - Celarus NA>
Brizeer - v4 Stamina Sorcerer - Prophet of Zazeer-Destroyer of Buff Severs and Eater of Sweet Rolls-
Watch LIVE @ www.twitch.tv/brizztv0 -
kitsinni✭✭✭✭✭
I'm sorry but it is personal you are arguing what logical fallacies are incorrectly. The funny thing is logical fallacies have nothing to do with the argument. While a logical fallacy can show that an argument isn't true based on the premise and conclusion it also doesn't prove that the argument is false, if just shows that the premise does not necessarily lead to the conclusion. More often than not it is used by people that don't really understand them to write off an argument as false. It doesn't prove an argument false. You can't make an incorrect accusation about someone using a logical fallacy and then get offended when they point out that you used it incorrectly.2 -
reften✭✭✭✭✭heh, I play a ton of PvP...and can tell you bow is not my biggest nemesis. OP is wrong and got sniped a few times while taking a keep.
Guess what...some players are better than others, and min/max. I don't get this mentality that someone who is a better player, better planner, and plays more...should not have an advantage over those who do not. Just doesn't make sense.
I was a NB who used two bows, one for each bar. Max health and stamina.
PvP sucked.
So I added dual wield and +13 spell damage rings. Better, but still sucked.
My sneak speed was terrible. So I added concealed weapon and night's silence, and the Tong set.
Better, but I'd get one kill and than die.
So I respec'd and added sword and board. I'm kinda liking this good damage, good survivability...plus I can still snipe with my old school bow. But now kinda missing the pure damage of dual wield.
Now I've switched to Vamp. Awesome sneak speed, but man, oil kills me FAST. Reconsidering...
THIS is the challenge of the game. This is what makes it fun.
Try something different (and I don't mean come to the boards and complain someone's tactic killed you)Reften
Bosmer (Wood Elf)
Moonlight Crew (RIP), Misfitz (RIP), Victorem Guild
VR16 NB, Stam build, Max all crafts.
Azuras & Trueflame. Mostly PvP, No alts.
Semi-retired till the lag is fixed.
Love the Packers, Bourbon, and ESO...one of those will eventually kill me.1 -
Foxhunt✭✭✭Knootewoot wrote: »oooooh myyyy goodness
I could never get the hand of animation cancelling. didn't know how to do it. I though it was like using snipe and cancel the attack with light attack so snipe took shorter to cast.
but i have been shooting rooting tooting all my life with spamming light attack and venom attack since beta. With high stamina regenarion i can shoot forever it seems and it looks like i have been animation cancelling all my TESO life without knowing it. I just assumed light attack was so fast i was legolassing in Cyyrodill. I was even trying to bunny hop with it which actually looks pretty funny.
I didn't realize it was an 'exploit' either. I've been doing the same thing for so long, practically since I started using the bow in beta, and assumed all was fine because everyone can do it right? Venom arrow, light attack cancel animation for another immediate venom arrow, light attack, arrow spray so they can't run far, repeat. But if they've got a fix in the works for this animation cancelling so you can't shoot quite as fast, I'd be perfectly fine with it. Until then I'm going to keep doing what the game allows me to do because as a nightblade, I've put up with a lot of bs going on in the game. It's time I dished a little bs out myself lol.0 -
Obscure✭✭✭✭✭Animation canceling is integral to just about every game I can think of that has a skill system. However only one of them that I can think of allows the player to complete a skill or action that is canceled, and that's ESO.
Cancelation should equal cancelation, not activation. Every player should freely be able to cancel his or her animation, and that cancelation should include the action performed. You attack but cancel with a block? The attack is canceled and you are blocking. You use an attack to cancel your block? The block is canceled and you attack. It's not complex or difficult to comprehend.
This is precisely how animation canceling is intended to work as designed by any self respecting professional game designer. The only way to justify this in ESO is to openly accept poor game design as integral to ESO...which judging by the state of the game as it has remained since well before launch, is likely the actual heart of the issue: justification for poor game design.1 -
Varicite✭✭✭✭✭
✭I'm curious exactly how animation cancelling is actually hurting you?
Light attacks still have an internal timer that animation cancelling will not allow you to bypass (1.2 seconds for most attacks before any haste).
Nobody is letting loose a barrage of attacks in under a second due to animation cancelling, outside of using some form of hack.
So I'm just not really sure what the issue is w/ cancelling animations. You're still subject to the internal cooldown of the light attack. It will allow you to fire off 2 attacks quickly, but you aren't going to be able to begin your next attack any sooner w/ cancelling.0 -
kitsinni✭✭✭✭✭Animation canceling is integral to just about every game I can think of that has a skill system. However only one of them that I can think of allows the player to complete a skill or action that is canceled, and that's ESO.
Cancelation should equal cancelation, not activation. Every player should freely be able to cancel his or her animation, and that cancelation should include the action performed. You attack but cancel with a block? The attack is canceled and you are blocking. You use an attack to cancel your block? The block is canceled and you attack. It's not complex or difficult to comprehend.
This is precisely how animation canceling is intended to work as designed by any self respecting professional game designer. The only way to justify this in ESO is to openly accept poor game design as integral to ESO...which judging by the state of the game as it has remained since well before launch, is likely the actual heart of the issue: justification for poor game design.
If an attack is instant with no cooldown and no global cooldown you are not actually canceling the skill. How do you cancel something instant? The skill happened instantly. I also don't know of any other games with a block system like ESO either so that might explain why block functions differently than other games.0 -
Obscure✭✭✭✭✭Animation canceling is integral to just about every game I can think of that has a skill system. However only one of them that I can think of allows the player to complete a skill or action that is canceled, and that's ESO.
Cancelation should equal cancelation, not activation. Every player should freely be able to cancel his or her animation, and that cancelation should include the action performed. You attack but cancel with a block? The attack is canceled and you are blocking. You use an attack to cancel your block? The block is canceled and you attack. It's not complex or difficult to comprehend.
This is precisely how animation canceling is intended to work as designed by any self respecting professional game designer. The only way to justify this in ESO is to openly accept poor game design as integral to ESO...which judging by the state of the game as it has remained since well before launch, is likely the actual heart of the issue: justification for poor game design.
If an attack is instant with no cooldown and no global cooldown you are not actually canceling the skill. How do you cancel something instant? The skill happened instantly. I also don't know of any other games with a block system like ESO either so that might explain why block functions differently than other games.
Synchronized animations with activation times is what many other games do. The animation code string is often directly tied to the cast time (longer the cast, longer the animation). Skills in ESO that are deemed "instant" have animations much longer than instant, I.E. there is no synchronization between cast and animation. This is very simply put, poor game design.
If you want an example of blocking in specific, take a look at TES V:Skyrim. If you wind up a power attack, then block, the attack is canceled (note: you cannot universally block with all weapons). If you block before an attack animation is complete, the attack is canceled. Even though Skyrim is heavily physics based, that specific principle of game design is not difficult to preserve in a less physics based or a completely non physics based system.
Every skill with an animation time needs an equivalent cast time. The reason casting animations exist is to provide the player a visual cue that they are casting. The present design of ESO with its animations defys this basic concept of game design. If the cast time is instant there should be no animation. If there is an animation the cast time should be identical to it. If a skill can be canceled in animation it should also be canceled in activation. It really truly is that simple and really truly is poor game design.1 -
MorHawk✭✭✭✭✭
You're unsure how manipulation of unintended combat mechanics in a PvP game is hurting others? You sure you don't want to retype that?I'm curious exactly how animation cancelling is actually hurting you?
So I'm going to hit you with a stick, but it's okay, because at least I'm not using a hammer, right?Light attacks still have an internal timer that animation cancelling will not allow you to bypass (1.2 seconds for most attacks before any haste). Nobody is letting loose a barrage of attacks in under a second due to animation cancelling, outside of using some form of hack.I can count to potato.
WWJLHD?Hypertionb14_ESO wrote: »another topic that cant see past its own farts.0 -
MorHawk✭✭✭✭✭Every skill with an animation time needs an equivalent cast time. The reason casting animations exist is to provide the player a visual cue that they are casting. The present design of ESO with its animations defys this basic concept of game design. If the cast time is instant there should be no animation. If there is an animation the cast time should be identical to it. If a skill can be canceled in animation it should also be canceled in activation. It really truly is that simple and really truly is poor game design.
Exactly. I don't know why this is even being debated.I can count to potato.
WWJLHD?Hypertionb14_ESO wrote: »another topic that cant see past its own farts.0 -
Varicite✭✭✭✭✭
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You're unsure how manipulation of unintended combat mechanics in a PvP game is hurting others? You sure you don't want to retype that?I'm curious exactly how animation cancelling is actually hurting you?
So I'm going to hit you with a stick, but it's okay, because at least I'm not using a hammer, right?Light attacks still have an internal timer that animation cancelling will not allow you to bypass (1.2 seconds for most attacks before any haste). Nobody is letting loose a barrage of attacks in under a second due to animation cancelling, outside of using some form of hack.
I'm not sure that you understand what you're talking about...
But I guess it's okay, because you used an extremely vague analogy that doesn't really mean anything.
I'm sure I don't want to retype that, because I do understand the mechanics behind animation cancelling, and I know that what it does isn't the huge DPS gain that many seem to think that it is.
This is likely part of the reason why ZOS doesn't consider using it as an exploit, because there is a very real limitation to how fast you can attack, whether you use this method or not.
Even if you use the full animation cancelling chain, consisting of light attack, ability, and then a block, you still will not be able to bypass the cooldown for your next light attack (which is why if you do this too quickly, instead of doling out another light attack, your character will begin to wind up a heavy attack instead).
The manipulation of "unintended combat mechanics" is not causing you to die much faster than if people just let the animation play all the way out. If you somehow think that it is, then I suggest you research the matter a bit more thoroughly.
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moXrox✭✭✭Are you sure that the "animation cancel" is balanced when it comes to the duration of an animation ? I did not test this so I dont know.
Take for example a 2H weapon and use the Uppercut ability, the animation for Uppercut is quiete long and slow.
Can the long animation be canceled as fast like others or even combined with normal hits i.e. bow+poison, you can more or less use them both together instantly.Edited by moXrox on September 4, 2014 3:58AMMusic Channel:
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