UlanX wrote: »

Circuitous wrote: »

THAT'S EXACTLY THE POOOOIIIIIIINT. YOU HAVE TO BECAUSE THE GAME IS DESIGNED AROUND HAVING A HEALER AROUND AT ALL TIMES.

Also, I *am* the healer. Seriously, read the posts!

The poooooooiiint is stupid though. It should be that a party requires a mixture of classes. What do you want to do? Just steam roll through with dps, no effort, no skill, no planning?

That just sounds lazy or childish. If you want easy mode buy a Wii.

Or go play LOTRO *snicker*

dharbert wrote: »

Spamming abilities in order to HEAL massive amounts of damage is just as valid a tactic as spamming abilities in order to CAUSE massive amounts of damage. L2P.

I agree with the healing being a valid tactic, but the L2P on the end is uncalled for. It detracts from an otherwise perfect arguement.

Healing is part of the games's mechanic, if it wasn't there, then everybody would be concentrating on dealing damage. Because who cares how long you can last if you can't kill the So&So who's damaging you.

In which case their would be a million and one threads saying we need another class/skill line to make the game (and PVP) viable.

Kos wrote: »

I actually agree with OP's point. Healing feels unnatural, can you imagine real fight and someone trying to use bandages and other crap?

You mean like a combat medic, or someone using a first aid pack on a fallen comrade. No I can't imagine that at all, nor can I imagine that real armies would use such tactics.

PS. Yes, I'm being Ironic, and sarcastic too.

I'm such a noob. I just now found out that sorcerers can convert their stamina pool to magicka, giving them double the magicka. This has caused me no end of frustration in pvp where I had sorcerers healing to full and doing good dps (and cc screw you crystal shards,) and apparently not running low on resources at all. Now that I know though, that's gonna stop. Every few seconds, mass hysteria, like clockwork.

Also, I switched my non-warlock set pieces to seducer's. I should have a much harder time running out of resources now.

PF1901 wrote: »

Maybe I missed the posting where you mentioned alternatives? COH was a game where they had a dedicated healer class as well but one was not dependent on having a healer around. That was because they had other classes that could cover that part but in different ways (controllers for example). I guess you see the point. These types of games usually rely on SUPPORT (I specifically don't write healer) classes. So your point above in caps does not make sense to me. But feel free to counter.

Edit: having no support class (in whatever form) for these kind of games would result in a more or less "damage is king" game. Let's how boring that will be.
On another not not sure if your (and op's) point is that in ESO basically everyone can heal (resto staff) without actually being a healer? Because that would be a bit of a different animal.

I mentioned a few alternatives in passing, here they are.
1 - 2 - 3
But that's not really why I'm still in this thread. I thought the OP had a point and wanted to make sure people were actually seeing the point (whether or not they agreed with it) and weren't just skimming through, coming to a false conclusion, and posting pointless noise.

I failed miserably, of course, but I tried.

You're right, a well-fleshed-out support role would cover for the lack of a dedicated healer in an interesting way and could make for more interesting encounter design. (For the record, no, I don't think ESO needs this, though I would love to see more support in the game.)

And no, this has nothing to do with everyone being able to heal. Actually, y'know what? There was a post on the PTS board that sums up what we're getting at.

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hello everyone!

We're looking to gather some specific feedback for the Serpent Trial. If you've had a chance to test out this new Trial, please answer the questions below. Also, if you plan on streaming your Trial runthrough, let us know! We'd love to watch, and will share good runs on our social media pages.

1. How does the overall difficulty of this Trial compare to the Warrior and Mage Trials?
2. Is the Trial more or less engaging than the prior Trials?
3. First Boss:
   • Are you able to keep your tank alive through a portal rotation. IE: Can you keep your tank alive until the split group comes back?
   • The large AOE scales its damage each time it’s cast, how long has the fight gone on when you are dying from it?
   • How many healers are you using?

Emphasis mine.

The damage this first boss does is largely unavoidable, and keeps getting stronger and stronger, requiring the healer to be constantly active to deal with it. If that's not enough, they seem to imply that you need more healers.

Is that fun or interesting? The rest of the boss apparently is, from what I've read of people's comments on it, but this particular aspect strikes me as really shallow and uninteresting.

Obviously not all encounters are designed this way, but it's not all encounters that the OP is concerned about, just a select few that work like this and favor pumping out heals against damage rather than smart or skillful play (unless you consider doing a heal rotation skillful, which there's an argument for).

So what I'm arguing for here isn't abolishing heals and making the game a pure DPS race, but designing more encounters to allow people to avoid or significantly reduce the damage they take through smart play, positioning, and coordination, letting the healers focus on buffs or doing damage themselves and only healing for the occasional huge attack that wasn't dodged or covering for mistakes. I feel like those encounters are a lot more interesting and are more rewarding to complete.

Ahaha,the main problem PvE failed in some MMOs is because ,all dungeons are a dps rush run, which sucks...they need some kind of strategy and Tank,DPS,Healer is a classic one.

Circuitous wrote: »

The damage this first boss does is largely unavoidable, and keeps getting stronger and stronger, requiring the healer to be constantly active to deal with it. If that's not enough, they seem to imply that you need more healers.

Is that fun or interesting? The rest of the boss apparently is, from what I've read of people's comments on it, but this particular aspect strikes me as really shallow and uninteresting.

Obviously not all encounters are designed this way, but it's not all encounters that the OP is concerned about, just a select few that work like this and favor pumping out heals against damage rather than smart or skillful play (unless you consider doing a heal rotation skillful, which there's an argument for).

So what I'm arguing for here isn't abolishing heals and making the game a pure DPS race, but designing more encounters to allow people to avoid or significantly reduce the damage they take through smart play, positioning, and coordination, letting the healers focus on buffs or doing damage themselves and only healing for the occasional huge attack that wasn't dodged or covering for mistakes. I feel like those encounters are a lot more interesting and are more rewarding to complete.

I see your point and I somewhat agree with it. I can't talk about the end game PvE aspect of ESO since I am purely playing for PvP, but I played a healer in many other MMOs and healed my way through PvE encounters of various difficulties and size for the past 11 years.

Personally I think a good dungeon design should have an encounter that is hard on the tank, at least one that is hard on the dps and one that is hard on the healer.

What you linked seem to be an encounter designed for testing the healer/s of the group, much as other encounters are testing the dps (dps race) or tanks (interrupts). I agree with that it seems like a very lazy design to have unavoidable damage scale like that, and it problably is. On paper it seems like it could be countered with a good rotation, which is poo. Good healing intense encounters are when I have to be alert 100% of the time and react within milliseconds to the clues of when people are going to need massive healing. When those are over, the boss is dead and I'm full of adrenaline thinking "can't belive we survive that.. phew! I can breathe again!", that is when PvE healing is at it's best.


Edit:
I never got into ESO PvE because I feel the encounters here too lacking. The ones I have done have been very one dimensional and usually about only doing one thing: DEEPEEESS (moar dots). There's been a couple of fun ones, but for every fun one there is five boring yawnfests. In PvP, I am always on high alert.

Personnaly i love playing a healer and i know a lot of other people love playing healers but i cannot say that i disagree the OP's point of view.

A game without heals would be a game where player skill is much more relevant.But that doesn't mean that player skill is completly absent in this game . How many times have we seen people complain that templars should have better magicka sustainance in this forum?? WAY too many times i say. Yet i play Templar and i completly disagree with it . Which means that those who complain about it are people who do not wish to rely on skill but rather wish to have everything made easy for them. Yet the possibility to have good magicka sustaince as a Templar is there, it just requires a bit of work and saccrificing maybe some of your DPS or HP or Stamina in order to focus and improve your Magicka regen .

The fact that you need to choose to saccrifice certain aspects of your character to make another aspect more powerful proves that player skill and player choices DO matter in this game .

Now this game offers a class that has powerful heals as his class skills but also allows every other class to use a healing staff which means that everyone has access to powerful heals , no exception. The only difference is that Templars don't need to saccrifice a weapon slot to have access to heals.

Again this forces players to make a choice and assume it , and again means that choices matter in this game and that player skill is required to make those choices count.

Personnaly, if this game didn't have any form of magical healing available , i would most certainly find ways to make a character i love either way. Removing heals from this game would not make me hate it . I would actually enjoy the new challenge presented to me . But right now this game does offer heals and since i love using them, i will certainly keep taking advantage of them.

Now if there is one thing i hate , that would be AoE's . Or should i say instant cast AoE's or instant cast AoE spamming . I hate them both for PvE and PvP. That is certainly something that ruins or even nullifies any form of challenge. But i'll leave it at that cuz i'm straying from the main subject here.

Draxuul

Nox_Aeterna wrote: »

:P.

Allow my templar now to hate sorcs for being able to blink over the hills and far away , hate NB for getting inv and bothering people with arrows from stealth and hate DK because they tank like hell and can area CC.

Mind you , i wouldnt play a healer , but since i play a templar and i get an entire tree that they decided to make for this , all i have to say is , deal with it OP or give templars all the other classes tricks to make up for it.

the invisibility isn't really useful for snipe. I always popped out of it before the attack completed. What you are seeing is they are a good distance away from you, and can pop right back into sneak after the arrow fires but before it hits.

Anyone can do that, and sorcerers are pretty damn effective at it as well.

PvE: I must be doing something seriously wrong when healing because while I may be able to keep an averagely skilled group alive, even completely draining my magicka pool can't save bad players who permanently stand in red circles. I can't talk about trials, but in veteran dungeons, there are lots of cases where not the healer but the individual player needs to take matters into his own hand to survive.

GwaynLoki wrote: »

PvE: I must be doing something seriously wrong when healing because while I may be able to keep an averagely skilled group alive, even completely draining my magicka pool can't save bad players who permanently stand in red circles. I can't talk about trials, but in veteran dungeons, there are lots of cases where not the healer but the individual player needs to take matters into his own hand to survive.

they are obvious and red for a reason, people need to move out of them. A friend of mine that heals says he usually isn't bothered by dps doing it because they always stand in that ***, but I really think for this game, if you can't be bothered to move out of clearly marked areas that are going to do large amounts of damage to you, you are dragging the group down.

It's one thing to screw it up once or twice, it's an entirely different beast if it is consistent behavior.

Too bad smart healing is a thing, or you could forget to heal someone like that every time they do that ***.

At any rate, that's when you have a chat with the person who doesn't know how to move. You are the healer so you probably have some weight to throw around, even against the tank, because most dungeons don't really need a tank.

I've done vet Elden Hollow once, it took about an hour or two to get everyone on board with dodge rolling when the titan thing roared into the sky. We managed it on our last try, and it was great when we did it, but if it had been a pick up group I would have bailed long before.

SFBryan18 wrote: »

I would heal Elyna because I played a game called MAG where healing your teammates was done religiously, whether they like it or not. Numbers win battles, and I think most people can't see beyond the word 'hate' to actually understand what the OP is mad about.

I disagree, I think we understand what the OP is angry about, we might not be expressing very well, but the fact is that if we removed healers, it would change the dynamic of the game so much it wouldn't work.

Now removing NPC healers, that I could get behind. Also I would be very careful about the way I name in posts, Mods will give you a warning if you go too far.

Yes, I get what the OP is saying. Unfortunately, for them, this game isn't going to get fully remodeled to not include healers so... it's pretty much either get on board, find a way to work around it, or get out.

I only say get out cause if you "despise" it that much and don't find a way to work around or just plain get over it, you're just going to get more frustrated with it and not really enjoy the game as much as you could.

inspiral1 wrote: »

Sounds like your bitter about a pvp fight lol so just use abilities that reduce healing taken to target, that way you nuke them and they have to use all the mana to heal then are oom in no time, snipe morph reduces healing my 60% combine that with mark, they cant out heal this.

all classes have reduced healing spells.

What mark reduces healing? I know the assassination ultimate does but I was unaware of a mark target morph that reduces healing.