Any word on the ridiculous sneak speeds?

Ser Lobo · August 2014

wwusterbarthub17_ESO wrote: »

To make it even Werewolves should get this also as they are faster than humans also, just maybe not as fast as Vamps.

Maybe I'm reading into this a bit much, but this seems telling of the problem and why it's going to be hard to get a reasonable debate on it.

"It's one of my toys. Maybe they can play with it, but it shouldn't be as good for them as it is for me. Cause it's my toy. Don't take my toy!"

Now, if the ability to move as fast, IN STEALTH, as a horse was the only thing that made vampires worth becoming, what with all the negatives, I would definitely understand. Of course that also means that it's a major issue for vampires, that one passive is all the sub-class is worth.

But are we really arguing that the superhuman speed is something vampire players deserve? That you are attacking their gameplay if you remove it? Making them useless?

In my mind, it seems this argument took the wrong turn. My question to the devs is this:

"Should stealth, at any time, with any combination of passives or special abilities, be able to move faster than a characters regular run?"

I think the answer to that is stupidly easy. If this somehow takes from vampires, then lets use my prior suggestion and change that passive so that it allows them to have a faster regular run, or base speed. Otherwise, the fact that you are crouched and hiding, yet are capable of going faster than if you are standing upright and jogging, boggles the mind.

Attorneyatlawl · August 2014

Re: Using outfitter to swap sets pre-combat, you don't always get to determine when combat starts, and that's true regardless of what gear you're wearing

. Plus night's silence isn't useful only out of combat but also provides good re-stealth escape and repositioning during fights.

Attorneyatlawl · August 2014

Stx wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hey guys! Just want to let you know that this shouldn't actually be happening, and will be fixed once we release Update 4. Hope that clears up any confusion!

No... that actually doesn't clear anything up lol., its actually quite vague.(as always)

What exactly are you fixing? Because independent of each other, the set bonus and the vampire passive are fine. The two stacking together is the problem, and hopefully what you guys will be changing.

They don't stack, actually. I highly recommend downloading an addon called "ravspeed" that shows your movement in units per second if you want to verify this.

ItsMeToo · August 2014

That fast Vamp NB in Night's Silence Armor while stealth running faster than all the horses was me after someone next to me would cast a spell that made me sneak faster. We were taking scrolls back to our keeps in the AD Alliance.

I would get in front of most everyone and as I waited for the scroll carrier to catch up, I would stand there and sweep the ground. I repeated this most of the way back to the keep. Just having a bit of extra fun along the way.

The sneak speed is not hurting anyone. It just allows me to get from point A to point B in a fun way.

Please ZOS, leave it alone.

p_tsakirisb16_ESO · August 2014

rophez_ESO wrote: »

Don't get me wrong. I'm actually enjoying using the nights silence plus vampire sneak passive. I'm just really wondering if it's intended. I know there are also nightblades that can achieve even faster speeds - almost horse speeds, while sneaking! I mean seriously, I don't even sprint anymore I just stay crouched and I run around almost as fast as my horse.

I understand people who really are enjoying themselves and don't want this to change - it is fun running superfast all the time, especially when you're hiding, but I just feel kind of dirty doing it.

I really think ZOS just needs to put a cap on sneak speed. It doesn't make sense to ever be able to sneak faster than you can sprint!

I agree with you. There is a certain Red NB, who managed to outrun my horse (fastest on game to boot and only fed apples) and my Sorcerer partner who using Bolt Escape.

If that isn't broken mechanic, what is then........

GnatB · August 2014

ruze84b14_ESO wrote: »

"Should stealth, at any time, with any combination of passives or special abilities, be able to move faster than a characters regular run?"

I think the answer to that is stupidly easy. If this somehow takes from vampires, then lets use my prior suggestion and change that passive so that it allows them to have a faster regular run, or base speed. Otherwise, the fact that you are crouched and hiding, yet are capable of going faster than if you are standing upright and jogging, boggles the mind.

Good to see at least one other person on the same page as me.

helediron · August 2014

Nah, wheter it's sneak or sprint does not matter. In fact, as a vamp i like to slide forward in half-superman pose and leave a dark path behind... Only thing that really matter is that this is super fun and hurts nobody. I vote to keep it.

onlinegamer1 · August 2014

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hey guys! Just want to let you know that this shouldn't actually be happening, and will be fixed once we release Update 4. Hope that clears up any confusion!

This is incorrect. It should be happening, is happening, and should remain happening. There is nothing to "fix". Your comment is not only confusing, but outright wrong. It is the epitome of "confusing".

Cyhawk · August 2014

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Re: Using outfitter to swap sets pre-combat, you don't always get to determine when combat starts, and that's true regardless of what gear you're wearing . Plus night's silence isn't useful only out of combat but also provides good re-stealth escape and repositioning during fights.

Outfitter has some sticky rules imposed by the API, you can't always switch on time when running into a battle zone, especially if you're in a group. Solo is a different story.

Attorneyatlawl · August 2014

Cyhawk wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Re: Using outfitter to swap sets pre-combat, you don't always get to determine when combat starts, and that's true regardless of what gear you're wearing . Plus night's silence isn't useful only out of combat but also provides good re-stealth escape and repositioning during fights.

Outfitter has some sticky rules imposed by the API, you can't always switch on time when running into a battle zone, especially if you're in a group. Solo is a different story.

Actually it isn't the API limiting it, but rather game mechanics. You cannot change gear while flagged as "in combat".

Ser Lobo · August 2014

onlinegamer1 wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hey guys! Just want to let you know that this shouldn't actually be happening, and will be fixed once we release Update 4. Hope that clears up any confusion!

This is incorrect. It should be happening, is happening, and should remain happening. There is nothing to "fix". Your comment is not only confusing, but outright wrong. It is the epitome of "confusing".

You are wrong. It should not be happening, though it is happening, and shouldn't remain happening. It needs fixed. Her comment was both straightforward, and outright accurate. You are the epitome of 'denial'.

Crowzer · August 2014

onlinegamer1 wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hey guys! Just want to let you know that this shouldn't actually be happening, and will be fixed once we release Update 4. Hope that clears up any confusion!

This is incorrect. It should be happening, is happening, and should remain happening. There is nothing to "fix". Your comment is not only confusing, but outright wrong. It is the epitome of "confusing".

Im agree with you and you are right.

dsalter · August 2014

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hey guys! Just want to let you know that this shouldn't actually be happening, and will be fixed once we release Update 4. Hope that clears up any confusion!

lame.
now NB's alone will out play any stealth reliant setup due to their own built in speed. if you want a more level playing field alter the vampire passive to work differently, better stealth detection? faster stealth fade with a 5% regen to all 3 stats? something better then negating the penatly which btw in it'self is pretty weak

TRIP233 · August 2014

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hey guys! Just want to let you know that this shouldn't actually be happening, and will be fixed once we release Update 4. Hope that clears up any confusion!

Thanks for the clarity.

Samadhi · August 2014

ruze84b14_ESO wrote: »

...
Now, if the ability to move as fast, IN STEALTH, as a horse was the only thing that made vampires worth becoming, what with all the negatives, I would definitely understand. Of course that also means that it's a major issue for vampires, that one passive is all the sub-class is worth.

But are we really arguing that the superhuman speed is something vampire players deserve? That you are attacking their gameplay if you remove it? Making them useless?
...

Vampire also has a skill called Elusive Mist that provides a 30% increase to move speed and can be used while in Sneak. A vampire can physically alter their entire body composition into the form of Mist to move more quickly.
I suppose you want to see that taken away as well?

Samadhi · August 2014

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Re: Using outfitter to swap sets pre-combat, you don't always get to determine when combat starts, and that's true regardless of what gear you're wearing . Plus night's silence isn't useful only out of combat but also provides good re-stealth escape and repositioning during fights.

In order to re-stealth escape and reposition the character needs to leave combat completely.
Night's Silence bonus does not activate at all while the character is in combat status, even if the character is crouched and uses an invisibility skill or potion.
As long as the player is flagged as "in combat" or detected in any way the set bonus does not apply.

Theoretically a vampire could run away from a target until their combat status was up, enter into sneak, go back and restart the fight; however, by that point the person they are fighting will likely have completely healed or entered into Sneak and became undetectable themselves.

The ability to flee from combat, enter Sneak, and come back is not specific to vampires wearing this set; it is also in no way enhanced by vampires in this set (except for the "come back" portion).

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Stx wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hey guys! Just want to let you know that this shouldn't actually be happening, and will be fixed once we release Update 4. Hope that clears up any confusion!

No... that actually doesn't clear anything up lol., its actually quite vague.(as always)

What exactly are you fixing? Because independent of each other, the set bonus and the vampire passive are fine. The two stacking together is the problem, and hopefully what you guys will be changing.

They don't stack, actually. I highly recommend downloading an addon called "ravspeed" that shows your movement in units per second if you want to verify this.

Using Rav Speed add on:

Vampire in Seducer 5 piece set.
225 units per second in sneak.

Vampire in Night's Silence 5 piece set.
360 units per second in sneak.

Samadhi · August 2014

ItsMeToo wrote: »

...
The sneak speed is not hurting anyone. It just allows me to get from point A to point B in a fun way.
...

This is really true. The bonus is completely inaccessible in combat and requires a player to avoid and leave combat before getting the bonus back.
The players that have taken up issue with this bonus are complaining that other players can scout more effectively.
Scouting is OP.

Samadhi · August 2014

helediron wrote: »

Nah, wheter it's sneak or sprint does not matter. In fact, as a vamp i like to slide forward in half-superman pose and leave a dark path behind... Only thing that really matter is that this is super fun and hurts nobody. I vote to keep it.

If it does get removed, we will have to start threads and mass /bug reports about all the other stacking speed bonuses in game.
If one set of bonuses does not stack, no speed bonuses of any kind should stack in order to maintain consistency.

Samadhi · August 2014

Hopefully @ZOS_GinaBruno or @ZOS_JessicaFolsom will provide some sort of insight into what exactly the issue that will be changed is, as well as what is actually being changed.

The previous comment in this thread was vague enough to leave more questions rather than provide any actual answers, unfortunately.

twev · August 2014

Samadhi wrote: »

ruze84b14_ESO wrote: »

...
Now, if the ability to move as fast, IN STEALTH, as a horse was the only thing that made vampires worth becoming, what with all the negatives, I would definitely understand. Of course that also means that it's a major issue for vampires, that one passive is all the sub-class is worth.

But are we really arguing that the superhuman speed is something vampire players deserve? That you are attacking their gameplay if you remove it? Making them useless?
...

Vampire also has a skill called Elusive Mist that provides a 30% increase to move speed and can be used while in Sneak. A vampire can physically alter their entire body composition into the form of Mist to move more quickly.
I suppose you want to see that taken away as well?

Only if they're moving against the wind......

But Vamps are different animals. Different mutated biology and stuffs.... I have nothing against vampires moving as quickly as they do, they ARE mutated into a different breed, but not necessarily in stealth mode.

'People' can't mist, so it aint the same.

My point was that regular 'people' shouldn't be able to innately sneak/crouch/stealth faster than a horse, and certainly not all the way from one castle to the next. B.E. for sorcs (you know... all that arcane magic and stuff) only goes just so far distance-wise, and it wont take you across a map. A mere mortal squatted down duckwalking faster than a horse, and doing it forever? nah....

Korinth · August 2014

rophez_ESO wrote: »

You guys keep avoiding my main issue with the situation:

Does it make sense that the best mobility in the game is stealthed? And please don't talk to me about high speed horses - first of all they are barely faster and second of all, you can't mount them when you really want to. Pop an invis pot, crouch, and, bingo!, you're stealthed and moving super fast.

Fine, leave it alone, because it IS very fun, but how about add some sets/skill lines that make sprinting faster than sneaking. LOL.

I say working as intended. Think of all the vampire movies you have seen. Vamps move quickly (god like), quietly/stealthy, and just appear out of no where. Think of the Twilight Saga: Breaking Dawn (wife made me watch it..I swear). Remember how fast the vamps were in that movie?

Unless they allow vamps to do more "mist movement" or change into bat form to fly like other traditional vamp movies...then I like it as is....

Korinth · August 2014

ruze84b14_ESO wrote: »

wwusterbarthub17_ESO wrote: »

To make it even Werewolves should get this also as they are faster than humans also, just maybe not as fast as Vamps.

Maybe I'm reading into this a bit much, but this seems telling of the problem and why it's going to be hard to get a reasonable debate on it.

"It's one of my toys. Maybe they can play with it, but it shouldn't be as good for them as it is for me. Cause it's my toy. Don't take my toy!"

Now, if the ability to move as fast, IN STEALTH, as a horse was the only thing that made vampires worth becoming, what with all the negatives, I would definitely understand. Of course that also means that it's a major issue for vampires, that one passive is all the sub-class is worth.

But are we really arguing that the superhuman speed is something vampire players deserve? That you are attacking their gameplay if you remove it? Making them useless?

In my mind, it seems this argument took the wrong turn. My question to the devs is this:

"Should stealth, at any time, with any combination of passives or special abilities, be able to move faster than a characters regular run?"

I think the answer to that is stupidly easy. If this somehow takes from vampires, then lets use my prior suggestion and change that passive so that it allows them to have a faster regular run, or base speed. Otherwise, the fact that you are crouched and hiding, yet are capable of going faster than if you are standing upright and jogging, boggles the mind.

This makes sense.... it does seem silly we are this fast IN STEALTH. Agree with the speed but maybe it shouldn't be in stealth.

ItsMeToo · August 2014

I'm not a mortal, I'm a vampire and the food buffs allow me to get from keep to keep if they are close enough. There are times I have to either stop for a moment to regen my stamina or get out of stealth mode, (which slows me down).

eventide03b14a_ESO · August 2014

We finally get some interesting options with some alternative builds to cloth and destruction staff and they want to remove it. There is absolutely no good reason so remove it other than it seems to annoy some people. How about the fact that horses have unlimited stamina? Isn't that a bug and why isn't that being addressed?

GnatB wrote: »

Arsenic_Touch wrote: »

Yay, looks like they're going to ruin things again.

Love how they flip flop once people start whining about it.

Ruin, a.k.a. change it so it actually makes logical sense.

Oh, and yeah. Just want to throw in that I don't care about the balance issues, I don't even PvP. The way it currently works just simply makes no logical sense, and reeks of bad implementation. And that annoys me.

There is a word for someone who is annoyed by good things happening to other people that has no impact on them.

twev · August 2014

ItsMeToo wrote: »

I'm not a mortal, I'm a vampire and the food buffs allow me to get from keep to keep if they are close enough. There are times I have to either stop for a moment to regen my stamina or get out of stealth mode, (which slows me down).

I'm not a vampire.
What kind of vampire food are you eating from vampire recipes?

Vampires aren't supposed to be able to ingest 'food', at all, ever.

I wholeheartedly endorse vampires being retroactively owning vampire recipes for any mortal recipes they now own, and vampires finding vampire recipes in future, btw, but if vampires are supposed to be granted vampire mist and bat swarm, and vampire speed, etc, they need to follow all the lore, and not just the easy ones.
Or not, I don't care that much, but if you're going to ignore lore on purpose to enhance game play, it ought be acknowledged as such instead of ignored.

I can see getting a pass on that whole sunlight thing, unless Zelder Zcrolls Inc lets you pay 50% of the sub rate for only being able to play at night.

ItsMeToo · August 2014

From my perspective, the sneak mode is not a crouch position when moving. It's more like the running position you see a sprinter make as they are coming out of the sprint blocks in a race about half way from the start position and the full out sprint position.

twev · August 2014

ItsMeToo wrote: »

From my perspective, the sneak mode is not a crouch position when moving. It's more like the running position you see a sprinter make as they are coming out of the sprint blocks in a race about half way from the start position and the full out sprint position.

From my perspective, the sneak mode is a crouch position when moving because that's exactly HOW the sneaker stealths, by crouching and being unobtrusive...

Otherwise, the stealther is just using a frame of mind skill and not a physical skill which cost a skill point and has any basis at all other than you just want it to.
With that point allowed, we might as well make arrow snipe take exactly the same time and motion as regular arrow time and motion if 'snipe' is just a state of mind that you paid a skill point for.

eventide03b14a_ESO · August 2014

ruze84b14_ESO wrote: »

onlinegamer1 wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hey guys! Just want to let you know that this shouldn't actually be happening, and will be fixed once we release Update 4. Hope that clears up any confusion!

This is incorrect. It should be happening, is happening, and should remain happening. There is nothing to "fix". Your comment is not only confusing, but outright wrong. It is the epitome of "confusing".

You are wrong. It should not be happening, though it is happening, and shouldn't remain happening. It needs fixed. Her comment was both straightforward, and outright accurate. You are the epitome of 'denial'.

And yet you are the only one who thinks so.

Samadhi · August 2014

twev wrote: »

...
My point was that regular 'people' shouldn't be able to innately sneak/crouch/stealth faster than a horse, and certainly not all the way from one castle to the next. B.E. for sorcs (you know... all that arcane magic and stuff) only goes just so far distance-wise, and it wont take you across a map. A mere mortal squatted down duckwalking faster than a horse, and doing it forever? nah....

Only Vampires with Night's Silence set on and Concealed Weapon skill from Nightblade slotted are capable of these speeds; even then, I've not found any testing method that allows me to keep pace with a horse unless I have Rapid Maneuvers on myself and the person on the horse does not, or I have a 10 second speed buff potion (39% speed increase) active, which runs out and has a cooldown.
A regular human in Night's Silence set moves at less than running speed. A Nightblade human with Night's Silence and Concealed Weapon moves at slightly faster than running speed, but slower than sprinting speed.
I don't see any sound reason why buffing myself with rapid maneuvers makes my horse faster, but that's a totally different can of worms.

Interestingly though, actual testing shows that vampire is only moving faster than horses with weapons sheathed; and even then, I don't think they are moving faster than a Fast Horse is.

Using RavSpeed add on for all tests:

Vampire with weapons sheathed:

Vampire in Sneak:
250 units per second; 100% of regular running speed

Vampire with Night's Silence in Sneak:
400 units per second; 160% of regular running speed

Vampire with Night's Silence in Sneak and Rapid Maneuvers:
467 units per second; 187% of regular running speed

Vampire with Night's Silence and Concealed Weapon:
463 units per second; 185% of regular running speed

Vampire with Night's Silence and Concealed Weapon buffed by Rapid Maneuvers:
541 units per second; 216% of regular running speed

Vampire with Weapons drawn:

Vampire in Sneak (with weapon drawn):
225 Units Per Second; 90% of regular running speed

Vampire with Night's Silence in Sneak (with weapon drawn):
360 units per second; 144% of regular running speed

Vampire with Night's Silence and Rapid Maneuvers (with weapon drawn):
420 units per second; 168% of regular running speed

Vampire with Night's Silence and Concealed Weapon (with weapon drawn):
417 units per second; 167% of regular running speed

Vampire with Night's Silence and Concealed Weapon and Rapid Maneuvers(with weapon drawn):
486 units per second; 194% of regular running speed

51% speed increase Horse:

Horse with 51% speed increase running:
377 units per second; 151% of regular (on foot) running speed

Horse with 51% speed increase sprinting:
453 units per second; 181% of regular (on foot) running speed

Horse with 51% speed increase dashing (repeatedly tapping Sprint key):
499 units per second; 200% if regular (on foot) running speed

Horse with 51% speed increase and Rapid Maneuvers buff running:
440 units per second ; 176% of regular (on foot) running speed

Horse with 51% speed increase and Rapid Maneuvers buff Sprinting:
526 units per second; 210% of regular (on foot) running speed

Horse with 51% speed increase and Rapid Maneuvers buff dashing (repeatedly tapping Sprint key):
576 units per second ; 230% of regular (on foot) running speed

hamon · August 2014

rophez_ESO wrote: »

ViciousWayz wrote: »

A cap on sneak speed? The fastest horse will outrun you still --- I'VE TESTED IT. A horse that is upgraded to about 20 points in speed, will be about the same as you... so basically any noob from the starter zones. You are sacrificing ALL OF THOSE WONDERFUL STATS of other sets, some which are AMAZING, for speed.

Go home OP, you're drunk.

So you think it makes sense to sneak faster and cheaper than you can sprint?

its a trade off. you sacrifice a 5 piece set bonus to use nights silence. which is fair to get speed.
if that 5 piece bonus is somehow to OP then what about the others. what about the one you use?
maybe you use seducers and warlock and prefer the extra power and regen over the speed. thats your choice.