Is AOE lazy playstyle?

SBR_QuorTek · August 2014

No it is not!

Depends on what you want to do and the situation as well, some of it, pvp has some serious issues though and alot of it bound out in 2 button strategies only and everyone wearing light armor.

But for some stuff AOE is certainly needed on the PvE side as well as a single target thing, so the way it is, it swing both ways.

Ser Lobo · August 2014

Yes it is.

PBpsy wrote: »

ruze84b14_ESO wrote: »

My personal point is this: If two players of equal skill and level enter a dungeon, a player casting very specific PBAOE skills will kill larger groups of mobs faster than a player using single-target attacks.

I'm not arguing that single-target should kill large groups of 'trash' mobs faster, but I am arguing that there should be equality. If the single-target player has to work much harder (not only approaching the target, facing the target, making sure the target is within range, avoiding hitting other targets, etc), to accomplish less output ... and all with more 'cost' in resources and time.

And I'm referencing ALL AOE, though the relation of magicka and/or sorcerer/dragonknight AOE to the options of other classes does weight this debate more heavily against those classes. I'm not saying Sap Essence or Steel Tornado shouldn't be considered in the AOE debate, just that they are few in number compared to other options.

I feel players should feel the need to switch to single-target attacks when mobs are few in number. They should feel the wasted resources. This of course would highlight other issues that exist aside from these.

This is already happening I do 200-300 less dps if I use my AOE bar on a single target than if I am using my single target tab on that target. It is a waste of resource and time. Anyway the game is designed in such a way that a DPS player should and certainly can do both AOE and Single target dps at the same time with any weapon setup. If one chose to just go in one direction one should accept the consequences. Lack of flexibility should be inefficient,

It is not a noticable waste of resources. It would be an actual waste of time for that sorcerer to switch to single-target bars when he can simply finish off the last two mobs more QUICKLY by sinking just a little more magicka.

DPS numbers are great, if a fight lasts an hour. But when that player takes less than 20 seconds to clear 5 mobs that another player has to work for almost a minute for, the fact that the first player is scoring 100-300 less DPS doesn't calculate in any noticeable way.

Both magicka and stamina are infinitely recharged, which means that resource waste doesn't really come into the picture UNLESS you are completely running out.

So in short, AOE, and more specifically magicka focused AOE which is most powerfully demonstrated in Sorcerer and Dragonknight classes, and with destruction staves, are far more efficient against any number of mobs except in some instances of elites and bosses that are without adds.

Even tested in weapon builds, Steel Tornado is a more efficient and practical skill in the vast majority of PvE gameplay than any of it's single-target counterparts.

I don't aim this at one class, though certain classes are stronger in this than others. Part of the problem is even mob AI and dungeon layout. But the simplest issues arise from how much time, and effort, is spent spamming PBAOE attacks versus having to aggressively approach and target each individual mob, as well as the overall lack of variety for AOE attacks in other weapon builds.

PBpsy · August 2014

No it is not!

ruze84b14_ESO wrote: »

It is not a noticable waste of resources. It would be an actual waste of time for that sorcerer to switch to single-target bars when he can simply finish off the last two mobs more QUICKLY by sinking just a little more magicka.

It is noticeable waste of resources and time in any situation of importance, that is boss fights in vet dungeons and trials. Going with impulse against a Healer in COH instead of a a concentrated single target burst is inefficient and very noticeably so. The weapon swap time at the moment is hardly a factor and even so nothing stops you to have single target skill on your aoe tab. I think you may actually see inefficient lazy players instead of AOE being lazy, I must swap a lot in order to be efficient.

ruze84b14_ESO wrote: »

DPS numbers are great, if a fight lasts an hour. But when that player takes less than 20 seconds to clear 5 mobs that another player has to work for almost a minute for, the fact that the first player is scoring 100-300 less DPS doesn't calculate in any noticeable way.

Both magicka and stamina are infinitely recharged, which means that resource waste doesn't really come into the picture UNLESS you are completely running out.

So in short, AOE, and more specifically magicka focused AOE which is most powerfully demonstrated in Sorcerer and Dragonknight classes, and with destruction staves, are far more efficient against any number of mobs except in some instances of elites and bosses that are without adds.

Even tested in weapon builds, Steel Tornado is a more efficient and practical skill in the vast majority of PvE gameplay than any of it's single-target counterparts.

I don't aim this at one class, though certain classes are stronger in this than others. Part of the problem is even mob AI and dungeon layout. But the simplest issues arise from how much time, and effort, is spent spamming PBAOE attacks versus having to aggressively approach and target each individual mob, as well as the overall lack of variety for AOE attacks in other weapon builds.

Again. It is your choice.Some encounters are designed to require some AOE dps.You have access to it. If you decide that you want to use a build with no flexibility you must accept that it will be more difficult to do.

Ser Lobo · August 2014

Yes it is.

It seems, @PBpsy, that you're saying 'go destruction staff if you want to do 90% of the content this game is designed around, or be inefficient'.

Now I'm not attempting to troll. I've heard this argument before. You are very accurate, actually. In boss fights, single-target attacks are most effective, most of the time. But in some boss fights, and almost every single other instance of combat in the game, in high-end veteran content or newbie zones, AOE is a much more efficient way to remove the large amount of mobs and adds out of the equation.

PBpsy · August 2014

No it is not!

ruze84b14_ESO wrote: »

It seems, @PBpsy, that you're saying 'go destruction staff if you want to do 90% of the content this game is designed around, or be inefficient'.

No. I am certainly not saying that. I am saying that AOE's is required for efficient progress in some encounters while it is not in others.This is by design and this is why everyone has access to some AOE.

Every weapon except W&S and Resto has some AOE capability and every class also has some AOE skills. If you chose not to use them and go just single target always that is your choice and maybe you should be less efficient in some situations. The AOE dps is actually a bit less imbalanced when it comes to Stamina/Magicka.

For 2H, Carve is very decent and is a the the second best ultimate builder in the game in my opinion which allows you to use ulimates pretty often which are AOE most of the time. For NB full Medium+Carve+Sap Essence + Soul Tether is pretty damn efficient and fun.

For DW, Steal Tornado can crit for 800-1k+ on low heath targets.Only AOE execute in game,I often wonder why those DW users never use it after they see the second impulse go of since it would save a lot of time.At the moment I am getting very close to the same DPS of light+Sap Essence+impulse with Medium + Sap Essence + Steel tornado on a NB.The problems are tied to single target.

Bow is bow, I'll give you that, but still has Volley and Bombard which are not that terrible AOE's.

Ser Lobo · August 2014

Yes it is.

It's a balance issue. Two sides of the same scale. The problem is just as much about the exceptional damage output to multiple targets that radial AOE offers (I'm specifying since you wanted to bring carve into this, and positional cone-based AOE is far less efficient in this game than either single-target or radial AOE)

The AOE output could just as easily be decreased as single-target damage increased, and balance could be achieved. Is it important for my nightblade to be able to rather easily solo 5-mob packs in same-level dungeons? Or would it make more sense that a sorcerer need to either be top of his game or have friends along to make it doable?

Cause as of right now, AOE-focused builds have more tolerance for poor players than single-target focused builds.

Alphashado · August 2014

Yes it is.

Sure is lazy.

But it's a game. I like being lazy :P

On a serious note, there are several mobs in the game that would shred you and your group to pieces if you tried to solo dps burn them down. If aoe dps is reduced, it would require an entire restructuring of the way dungeon mobs are designed.

And I have zero desire to solo dps 7 skeevers one at a time.

Aldarenn · August 2014

Yes it is.

@Alphashado you've got a point, but aoe dps is insanely strong, even on one target. Pulsar, I believe is the only move that reduces an enemies Max HP, plus it hits really hard, harder than some single target spells.
And almost everyone uses an AoE ultimate ability, so maybe everyone is lazy to some degree?

ravenhartb14_ESO · August 2014

Terrible poll is terrible.
You have a black and white option for a very grey topic. Your poll offers no alternatives, and no understanding of AOE vs. DD.

Reduced damage over an area vs. high damage vs. a single target.
By definition both are different, and both are useful in specific situations.

Are you fighting a group, or are you fighting a single target?
Neither option can be useful in both situations.

Also, your choice might also be affected by:
Your health
Is a certain MOB healing other MOBs? Does a certain MOB deal more damage that other MOBs? etc.

There are an almost an endless amount of variables that would affect your personal choice of tactics.

One tactic is not "lazier" than another. It's just another tool in your toolbox. You're a fool if you're not using both.

dsalter · August 2014

Yes it is.

PBpsy wrote: »

ruze84b14_ESO wrote: »

Why games then insist on making PBAOE do as much damage as single target always confuses me. In my mind, AOE should be significantly resource heavy and almost impossible to spam.

In TESO, Impulse can't reach more than 60% of the damage done by single target skills of most classes, Steel tornado can reach the high damage single target skills if on low health and has some extra problems. Compared to other skills they require proximity to a many targets to be worth using in pve, this means that one should put himself in danger,If you are using something like impulse you do not have as much defense either. For PVP they are easily avoidable if you see Impulse stay tf away and use raged attacks or CC. It is as simple as that, avoiding crap like Cristal fragments,Funnel Health etc is a bit more involved and they certainty do a lot more damage. If long ranged, high damage, hard to avoid attacks can be spamable then short ranged, medium damage , easy to avoid skills should be spamble also.

someone doesnt pvp much. impulse spammers are never alone. they move in swarms. abuse the AoE cap, and always have healers, unstoppable (so no CC), barrier for bubblage and speed buffs.
one does not simply "avoid it and range them"

dodgehopper_ESO · August 2014

dsalter wrote: »

PBpsy wrote: »

ruze84b14_ESO wrote: »

Why games then insist on making PBAOE do as much damage as single target always confuses me. In my mind, AOE should be significantly resource heavy and almost impossible to spam.

In TESO, Impulse can't reach more than 60% of the damage done by single target skills of most classes, Steel tornado can reach the high damage single target skills if on low health and has some extra problems. Compared to other skills they require proximity to a many targets to be worth using in pve, this means that one should put himself in danger,If you are using something like impulse you do not have as much defense either. For PVP they are easily avoidable if you see Impulse stay tf away and use raged attacks or CC. It is as simple as that, avoiding crap like Cristal fragments,Funnel Health etc is a bit more involved and they certainty do a lot more damage. If long ranged, high damage, hard to avoid attacks can be spamable then short ranged, medium damage , easy to avoid skills should be spamble also.

someone doesnt pvp much. impulse spammers are never alone. they move in swarms. abuse the AoE cap, and always have healers, unstoppable (so no CC), barrier for bubblage and speed buffs.
one does not simply "avoid it and range them"

I've been thinking about this, and it occurs to me that this strategy is like some strange form of phalanx shield wall. The irony is, no shield wielding is involved. It actually would be nice if people could line up as a shield wall and protect their comrades in the line behind them. Then you could have strategies about breaking enemy lines, reforming the line, etc etc. I don't think its doable, but it would be cool (and more realistic).

Adrastes · August 2014

Yes it is.

yes it is. i have both AOE and melee character and if im feeling lazy i play always AOE char.

Mondo · August 2014

Yes it is.

You must be really skilled to spam Impuls :P

Evergnar · August 2014

Yes it is.

So easy a caveman could do it, and Nords do.

Arthur_Spoonfondle · August 2014

No it is not!

The only people who consider AOE to be lazy are those who are too short-sighted, or elitist, to be able to understand that just because they don't like AOE it is not a bad way to play.

Code2501 · August 2014

IMO its more that lazy development that makes AoE spam not only viable but optimal.

A well developed game requires you to carefully use a mix of AoE with CC, Single target skills, buffs, debuffs and counterspells for optimal effect rather than just spamming 1-2 AoE skills and a heal.

There should be counters in both PvE and PvP to AoE spam.

For example a simple group wide reflect which causes the AoE effect to reflect off the whole group back onto the caster, that would quickly stop mindless AoE spam and force AoE to be used intelligently with dispelling lest the 300 damage AoE be reflected back as 1500 damage.

Alternatively (though less likely) AoE should be dumbfire, meaning it damages anything in its radius, enemy and friendly alike. This worked great in DnD, a caster had to think twice and aim well before hurling a fireball into the fray or they would roast their entire party in the process.

Zabalah · August 2014

No it is not!

ravenhartb14_ESO wrote: »

Terrible poll is terrible.
You have a black and white option for a very grey topic. Your poll offers no alternatives, and no understanding of AOE vs. DD.

Reduced damage over an area vs. high damage vs. a single target.
By definition both are different, and both are useful in specific situations.

Are you fighting a group, or are you fighting a single target?
Neither option can be useful in both situations.

Also, your choice might also be affected by:
Your health
Is a certain MOB healing other MOBs? Does a certain MOB deal more damage that other MOBs? etc.

There are an almost an endless amount of variables that would affect your personal choice of tactics.

One tactic is not "lazier" than another. It's just another tool in your toolbox. You're a fool if you're not using both.

^ This

zaria · August 2014

No it is not!

jrgray93 wrote: »

Kind of a bad poll. I don't see how it could be considered "lazy." It's just the most effective thing to do in ESO 90% of the time.

Depend on the number of targets you face, you don't use AoE on single targets.
AoE is also very nice then your group fight another large group as not only do things get chaotic but its very easy for your target to get killed by other before you get off your attacks.

Francescolg · August 2014

No it is not!

AOE-spamming works best for faster ultimate-reggen (compare to a resto-staff aoe healing).

In this game: the fastest way to get your ultimates up = win. See the relative skills (for example 2h Cleave) that give for ultimate points for each (!) target hit!

purple-magicb16_ESO · August 2014

No it is not!

Absolutely and 100% not. Just try playing without aoe and see how far you get. When you are surrounded by 6 enemies, you tell me how to take them down one at a time and still survive. In VR its hard enuff to take on three at once.

That being said, it doesn't remove strategy from the game. Some enemies are immune to certain things, some you have to ensnare or they get rite in your face and pound you, some use primarily ranged attacks or summon undead etc. I know these are obvious things that you are already aware of but they are still considerations that have to be factored into your tactics. Just try playing a group dungeon without aoe and you'll see exactly what I mean.

ShadoPanauin · August 2014

No it is not!

Would you rather go up again a 30-40 person zerg in PvP without AoEs? Trust me, you'll die fast.

Lag · August 2014

Yes it is but I will continue to use it for all trash mobs

Azraeel · August 2014

No it is not!

In my opinion, people should just GTFO the way skills are, and stop trying to ruin the game with their lousy interference. And unless Zenimax turns the weapon light attack into frontal AOE damage, this subject should never be raised.

Damn whiners everywhere.

Skafsgaard · August 2014

If running around in a grp spamming impluse, maybe not lazy but just awkward.

I dont think the concept of AoE is lazy, sometimes it is used in a lazy way. I didnt vote cos I needed a third option, like 'it depends on cicumstances'

Sometimes I catch a guy who got lost from his train and in the 1v1 he spams impulse till he is OOM and wiped by me I cant help smile inside when that happens

But tactical well used targeted AoE (like nova/banner/ice blockade whatever) on a breach isnt lazy imo, just a way to defend a keep.

RedMiniStapler · August 2014

This isn't like in movies where it's 1 good guy vs. multiple bad guys, and only one bad guy attacks at a time. When you face multiple mobs by yourself, all of them will attack at the same time. I don't really give a rats arse if others call it lazy, I will spam aoe.

Badh0rse · August 2014

I get a kick out of the whole you're being lazy thing ... in a game! We're all being lazy you ***, we are sitting on our butts clicking a few buttons and staring at a flashing screen ........... You go for a hike up a mountain and then you have the right to call a play style in a game lazy!

edit: My absolute favorite is when ppl say someone is too lazy to get all their gear for endgame raids because they are so far behind. Wouldn't that in fact mean the opposite though? He was not lazy enough to sit at a pc all day and play a video game!

Phantax · August 2014

No it is not!

Trying to say that AOE users are lazy is like trying to say Single Target damage users are too dumb to realise their is more than one enemy around them !
(neither is true and neither makes sense)

Umeil · August 2014

Yes it is.

It is the laziest way to play any game.

Unfortunately MMO's work that it is the only way to play the game from DAoC to WoW to Warhammer ect ect ect ect ....... every one of them was magica PBAOE based to win.

Badh0rse · August 2014

Phantax wrote: »

Trying to say that AOE users are lazy is like trying to say Single Target damage users are too dumb to realise their is more than one enemy around them !
(neither is true and neither makes sense)

I love it! Best answer so far!

Wifeaggro13 · August 2014

Yes it is.

Phantax wrote: »

Trying to say that AOE users are lazy is like trying to say Single Target damage users are too dumb to realise their is more than one enemy around them !
(neither is true and neither makes sense)

Well i dont think the issue for myself is such. it think the way ZOS uses AOE mechanics is lazy Development in all honesty.

Matter of fact i think the way ZOS uses DPS is lazy. The agro mechanics are sub par , Healing is needed, DPS is needed but both focus on lots of AOE rotations. very little silencing and interupting aside from a few trash pulls. which is easily over come with?..... you guessed it AOE DPS.

And boss mechanics . well they are easily ignored with .....? AOE healing and ST DPS. there is very little CC going on in PVE . sure you can use it , but its not a encounter breaker if you dont. its much better to just AOE the day lights out of it. DPS needs its roll and it's requirement. But it should not be the only thing you need like it currently is.