liquid_wolf wrote: »

They are probably testing out ideas and trying to figure out which one has the least negative impact.

I would just like some confirmation that they are. Because if this is it, then there really is no hope for heavy armor and stamina, so I might as well just join the zerg now.

UPrime wrote: »

Balance is an ongoing never ending process.

I understand that. But the first step to achieving balance is recognizing an imbalance.

We really have no way of knowing, short of some such recognition, whether they think they have fixed the problem or not.

liquid_wolf wrote: »

You can't magically fix stamina.

Blocking, dodging, breaking CC, sprinting, and skills.

Magicka doesn't have that kind of a pull on it, and making adjustments to Stamina would affect a great many aspects of the game.

Reducing the skill costs of stamina... so you can now spam them.
Increasing the damage output of stamina skills... so you out perform mages.
Tweaking the costs of block, CC break, and sprinting... mages get that for free, so they are still buffed more than the stamina users.

There are a great many fixes for these problems... but it looks like they will affect magicka users negatively or positively no matter what happens.

They are probably testing out ideas and trying to figure out which one has the least negative impact.

One option to fix the pull on stamina that magicka doesn't have would go something like this...

Add a modifier (part of the skill) that for every pure stamina ability slotted, cost of physical actions have an X% conversion to magicka, where physical actions would include blocking, dodging, breaking CC, sprinting, and optionally include light and heavy weapon attacks that require stamina. The question to find out is: what is X% and what is the Sum of all X%s?

Here's how I'd balance it: Consider a mage with all magicka abilities versus, say a nightblade with all stamina abilities. First, make their attributes + armor enchants the same so they have equal magicka, health, stamina values and recharge rates.

Let's say under this scenario a mage can perform 5 magicka skill based attacks + dodge 2x, block 5x, and break CC 1x before all magicka and stamina are gone. Set X% to be such that the NB can perform 5 stamina based attacks of the same cost value (equally depleting all stamina) and then be able to perform the same number of physical actions to deplete all magicka under the conversion.

I would number evaluate this between lots of class and ability comparisons then create a weighted average of the values that would scale with player level appropriately.

Another option aside from reducing the costs to those action is to make proper resistances to stamina spec'd characters where the need for those abilities is reduced much more than it is.

UPrime wrote: »

Balance is an ongoing never ending process.

It shouldn't be, or you never are balancing. It's simple control theory. The problem ZOS is facing is that the feedback mechanism isn't a PID controller. They are currently overshooting the mean, then correcting it by nerfing, which undershoots, and they're in a nasty oscillation about what should be balanced game play.

keep working on builds. stam users got a huge boost. NB just got very competitive in pvp. just because you havent tweaked a good build yet, does not mean the whole update fell completely short.

Tamanous wrote: »

Sadly it appears ZOS is not willing to address the core mechanical issues. It isn't enough that stam builds do as much damage. The base mechanics of how stam and magicka is used in this game must change.

I agree completely. Fiddling with a few skills is just not going to do it.

I have heard some suggestions that might help, however.

--One was to give Heavy Armor a magicka and stamina cost reduction of the sort that light armor has for magicka and medium armor has for stamina. While heavy should not be as good at magicka as light nor as good at stamina as medium, it would at least start to close the gap and make some builds viable, especially the hybrids.
--More damage mitigation for heavy, or lower softcaps for light.
Etc.

In short, there are some things they can try... but I'm not convinced they are aware that they have not yet fixed the problem.

Circuitous wrote: »

hey guys remember when they did a panel at QuakeCon and acknowledged the issues with stamina builds, and continue to address them incrementally with each patch? I remember that, 'cuz I pay attention.

They know it's a problem. They couldn't possibly not know it's a problem.

I do think most know this. I watched the entire panel chat. The problem is seeing changes that DO NOT address the core issues. It is fluff change.

I knew in beta that using a magicka build was the most powerful. I knew using a resto staff would both increase my survival AND maximize my DPS. I knew using ANY stamina skill would only hurt my defensive options. I knew that the best defensive skills were magicka based and it pulled from a pool not impacted by basic defense options. I knew animation canceling with instant attacks was the most efficient dps. I knew blocking was OP as hell and could have nearly full uptime. I stopped playing light armor staff because it sickened me. It was an abuse of a poorly designed system and I refuse to take part in it.

What is needed is proper change ... not a minor shift of potential power through caps. I have seen no ZOS employee actually talk about the fundamental reasons behind build imbalance. They merely admit there is an issue but clearly have shown no ability to properly fix it.

david.haypreub18_ESO wrote: »

It's been a while since ZOS has acknowledged the problem with heavy armor and stamina builds (or I would say weapon skills in general). We've had some fixes, but I think it is fair to say that the general consensus is they are not near enough to achieve balance. Some skills were tweaked and caps adjusted, but most people doing end PvE and PvP are still using sticks and skirts.

The question is: is that it? Are there going to be any more tweaks to heavy armor and weapon skills (at least before Thieves Guild/Dark Brotherhood is in, which looks to be several updates away)? Or should I finally give in and pick up a staff and a skirt?

Since the caps were raised I am a medium armor NB sitting at 2410 stamina and capped weapon damage. My bow and DW daggers hit very hard, i can out damage any other single target damage dealers. 1v1 i use elude which is 22% evade chance and blur for its 15% miss chance. I can pretty much go toe to toe straight up melee with anyone, my DW furry does ALOT of damage fast. Since hitting V12 i win 4 out 5 fights vs DKs

Circuitous wrote: »

Tamanous wrote: »

Circuitous wrote: »

hey guys remember when they did a panel at QuakeCon and acknowledged the issues with stamina builds, and continue to address them incrementally with each patch? I remember that, 'cuz I pay attention.

They know it's a problem. They couldn't possibly not know it's a problem.

I do think most know this. I watched the entire panel chat. The problem is seeing changes that DO NOT address the core issues. It is fluff change.

Look, I'm an idiot, okay? But I get this hunch sometimes that maybe the developers have an idea of what they're doing and are taking it slow with this problem. I picture them on a test server trying every ridiculous, self-important suggestion ever posed on this forum and hacking it out to see how it holds up. When they find something that they can put in without toppling the whole boat, they roll it into a patch. Turns out not much is making the cut, and the problem is bigger than we thought.

Maybe that's all just me, I don't know. Not a one of us knows.

What we can safely assume however, is that threads like this accomplish nothing besides letting people vent their meaningless frustrations. This isn't useful feedback, it's cracking a whip and shouting.

I am a paying customer. I WILL CRACK THE WHIP AND COMPLAIN UNTIL THEY HEAR IT.

You should too as it is the only way to turn this mess into a healthy game. It is about caring for the game. It is about passion. Do not be afraid to show it. Do not be afraid to go against the masses. It is about having a spine.

I have addressed the specifics in many other threads, on other forums and in many suggestions sent in game. I do not need to rehash them over and over. I know you know of the specific issues so do not insult me by saying I have to express the specifics each and every thread I enter.

Thus far ALL official statements from ZOS have NOT addressed the core issues of this game. They merely have to inform us they acknowledge where the issues stem from and stop issuing band-aid fixes. Do you honestly think the tide of light armor + staff builds will slow knowing stamina builds do the same dps? No, because the core issues still remain.

Kewljag_66_ESO wrote: »

david.haypreub18_ESO wrote: »

It's been a while since ZOS has acknowledged the problem with heavy armor and stamina builds (or I would say weapon skills in general). We've had some fixes, but I think it is fair to say that the general consensus is they are not near enough to achieve balance. Some skills were tweaked and caps adjusted, but most people doing end PvE and PvP are still using sticks and skirts.

The question is: is that it? Are there going to be any more tweaks to heavy armor and weapon skills (at least before Thieves Guild/Dark Brotherhood is in, which looks to be several updates away)? Or should I finally give in and pick up a staff and a skirt?

Since the caps were raised I am a medium armor NB sitting at 2410 stamina and capped weapon damage. My bow and DW daggers hit very hard, i can out damage any other single target damage dealers. 1v1 i use elude which is 22% evade chance and blur for its 15% miss chance. I can pretty much go toe to toe straight up melee with anyone, my DW furry does ALOT of damage fast. Since hitting V12 i win 4 out 5 fights vs DKs

Thats it ! Nerf The damn nightblade!!!!!!!!!!!!

UPrime wrote: »

Balance is an ongoing never ending process.

Well, that's the idea. It's just that watching the balance change progress for this game is kind of like watching a sloth crawl through molasses.

Kewljag_66_ESO wrote: »

david.haypreub18_ESO wrote: »

It's been a while since ZOS has acknowledged the problem with heavy armor and stamina builds (or I would say weapon skills in general). We've had some fixes, but I think it is fair to say that the general consensus is they are not near enough to achieve balance. Some skills were tweaked and caps adjusted, but most people doing end PvE and PvP are still using sticks and skirts.

The question is: is that it? Are there going to be any more tweaks to heavy armor and weapon skills (at least before Thieves Guild/Dark Brotherhood is in, which looks to be several updates away)? Or should I finally give in and pick up a staff and a skirt?

Since the caps were raised I am a medium armor NB sitting at 2410 stamina and capped weapon damage. My bow and DW daggers hit very hard, i can out damage any other single target damage dealers. 1v1 i use elude which is 22% evade chance and blur for its 15% miss chance. I can pretty much go toe to toe straight up melee with anyone, my DW furry does ALOT of damage fast. Since hitting V12 i win 4 out 5 fights vs DKs

You've piqued my interest. So you use 2 slots for evade type skills, 1 slot for Flurry.

1 slot for Flying Blade and 1 slot for Ambush? Just trying to see how this would work.

liquid_wolf wrote: »

You can't magically fix stamina.

Blocking, dodging, breaking CC, sprinting, and skills.

Magicka doesn't have that kind of a pull on it, and making adjustments to Stamina would affect a great many aspects of the game.

Reducing the skill costs of stamina... so you can now spam them.
Increasing the damage output of stamina skills... so you out perform mages.
Tweaking the costs of block, CC break, and sprinting... mages get that for free, so they are still buffed more than the stamina users.

There are a great many fixes for these problems... but it looks like they will affect magicka users negatively or positively no matter what happens.

They are probably testing out ideas and trying to figure out which one has the least negative impact.

---

(*) Igniting STAM REGEN would go a HUGE way to it!!!! (*)