The Huge Mistake and Horrible Business decision that is the Current Guild system~

Malpherian · August 2014

Salyyn wrote: »

Stuff

The main problems with that are 2 fold:

1.) The definition of a guild does not exclude small numbers, in fact by definition there is no integer. The Definition which applies mainly to Guilds in MMO's is:

an association of people for mutual aid or the pursuit of a common goal.

Which can be any group of 2 or higher.

2.) Remember the idea is to make money from an MMO, especially a Sub based one. While as I've said before I agree that in an F2P system the guild set up we have currently would be great, for a subscription game however, it's a Game Breaking Design as it alienates the very people who might otherwise subscribe if they were indeed able to form functional guilds with their RL friends and families.

People play MMO's with their friends and Families. No one wants to play an MMO that makes you choose between the game, and playing with the ones you love. It is indeed unfortunate that ESO is one of those games which discriminates in complete totality against such groups of would be players and subscribers.

Phantax · August 2014

Salyyn wrote: »

[And, to the problems that were brought up as I skimmed more posts, not caring about your guilds: Let's face it. This is the internet. People are going to be jack a**es.

Not always so. In another MMO (the one beginning with W) I was part of the same guild for 5 years and ran it for 2 years. We cared about our guild and guildies. Ran weekly fund raising events, Daily dungeon runs, weekly raids, guild lottery, newbie training runs/boosts. Our officers made and provided high-end gear for those who had levelled up within the guild.
Also we had a few times where we actually all met up in real life. I spent one great weekend in Denmark, myself and 4 guys from the UK went other their and met up with others from Germany and the guys from Denmark.

I'll put a large wager that nothing like this comes from the guild system we have now in ESO !

Salyyn · August 2014

Phantax wrote: »

Salyyn wrote: »

[And, to the problems that were brought up as I skimmed more posts, not caring about your guilds: Let's face it. This is the internet. People are going to be jack a**es.

Not always so. In another MMO (the one beginning with W) I was part of the same guild for 5 years and ran it for 2 years. We cared about our guild and guildies. Ran weekly fund raising events, Daily dungeon runs, weekly raids, guild lottery, newbie training runs/boosts. Our officers made and provided high-end gear for those who had levelled up within the guild.
Also we had a few times where we actually all met up in real life. I spent one great weekend in Denmark, myself and 4 guys from the UK went other their and met up with others from Germany and the guys from Denmark.

I'll put a large wager that nothing like this comes from the guild system we have now in ESO !

For starters, if you're going to snip a quote, get the entire portion relevant to it, not just what you want. This isn't CNN (lol) Anyway, The kind of guilds that foster relations, also tend to be the RP guilds, or the dungeon guilds, or the PVP guilds. The trading guilds? That's where the jacka**ery comes out in full most times. As well as the example starting with a W, that's a different use of the word guild, in a different lore universe and setting. People tend to use the word guild as a blanket term, when it's far from that.

Alphashado · August 2014

You keep using the term "intentionally discriminates". That is harsh to say the least. Are you hoping a lawyer will interject on your behalf? You really believe that small guilds are being targeted and picked on as some kind of victim simply because they (you) refuse to meet the very simple criteria set in place?

Accusations of discrimination are very serious and should not be abused or casually tossed out as a tool to be used to facilitate an agenda. This is a tabard on a cartoon character in a video game. Let's be real here.

Phantax · August 2014

Salyyn wrote: »

Phantax wrote: »

Salyyn wrote: »

[And, to the problems that were brought up as I skimmed more posts, not caring about your guilds: Let's face it. This is the internet. People are going to be jack a**es.

Not always so. In another MMO (the one beginning with W) I was part of the same guild for 5 years and ran it for 2 years. We cared about our guild and guildies. Ran weekly fund raising events, Daily dungeon runs, weekly raids, guild lottery, newbie training runs/boosts. Our officers made and provided high-end gear for those who had levelled up within the guild.
Also we had a few times where we actually all met up in real life. I spent one great weekend in Denmark, myself and 4 guys from the UK went other their and met up with others from Germany and the guys from Denmark.

I'll put a large wager that nothing like this comes from the guild system we have now in ESO !

For starters, if you're going to snip a quote, get the entire portion relevant to it, not just what you want. This isn't CNN (lol) Anyway, The kind of guilds that foster relations, also tend to be the RP guilds, or the dungeon guilds, or the PVP guilds. The trading guilds? That's where the jacka**ery comes out in full most times. As well as the example starting with a W, that's a different use of the word guild, in a different lore universe and setting. People tend to use the word guild as a blanket term, when it's far from that.

The reason I did the partial 'snip' is because my reply was only focused on one small part of what the poster said !

Malpherian · August 2014

Alphashado wrote: »

You keep using the term "intentionally discriminates". That is harsh to say the least. Are you hoping a lawyer will interject on your behalf? You really believe that small guilds are being targeted and picked on as some kind of victim simply because they (you) refuse to meet the very simple criteria set in place?

Accusations of discrimination are very serious and should not be abused or casually tossed out as a tool to be used to facilitate an agenda. This is a tabard on a cartoon character in a video game. Let's be real here.

Glad you ask, lets take a look at that:

1.) Does the Guild system, By design Alienate Smaller groups by making it impossible for them to have Necessary Guild Functions? (To clarify a necessary guild function is any function of the guild which enables access to content connected to said Function without which, participation or access to is impossible)

- Yes

2.) Was it advertised (Before release) That all guilds would have access to these features? -

Yes

Do All Guilds have access to these features?

- No Small Guilds do not have access to any of the main guild features.

3.) Do small Guilds still qualify as Guilds? - Since 1 person can create a guild, it will be assumed that yes ZOS intended small groups to qualify as Guilds.

4.) Is it likely, that with all the funding and quality testing ZOS claims to have and do, that this... Issue/Alienation/Discrimination... Went unnoticed during the development process? - No, Because the system would have to be "specifically designed" to Discriminate against small groups in order to do it.

IE the intention would have to be to ensure small groups would not have access to a guild bank or store or tabard, in order to make a restriction that did not allow small groups to have access to a Bank or Store or Tabard.

5.) Is it evident, by post of Update 3 by ZOS, where it clearly states the restrictions, that ZOS is fully aware small groups will not have access to said Guild Functions? - Yes

6.) Why was the number set to 10? Not 5? not 4 (Like 80% of the game)? -

10 is a large enough number to ensure that in "most cases" Small groups (which are mainly made up of Families and Friends) will not be able to access Guild features unless they choose to add additional players to their guilds beyond their "Circle". I would assume this was done to force interaction of the player base. As ZOS has stated was the intention of many of their systems.

Conclusion, The design of the system was in fact intentional, as was the Discrimination of small groups, IE Friends and Families.

Alphashado · August 2014

Whatever man. It isn't discrimination. Get real and quit acting like some kind of victim. The tabards are EASY TO GET. Everyone is a victim these days just because they can't get everything they want. It's pretty sad.

If you want to make a case for family guilds getting tabards that is one thing, but to suggest that keeping them from you is some kind of hate crime is outlandish.

So by your reasoning, is a bar discriminating against underage kids because they expect to see an ID proving they are over 21?

Does the DMV discriminate against you because they expect you to supply 2 forms of ID before you get a drivers license? Would you show up there with only one form of ID then demand they give you a license anyways and claim discrimination?

Would a state trooper be discriminating you for giving you a ticket because you were driving in the car pool lane with only one person?

Does the pizza delivery boy discriminate you because you are demanding a discount price w/o having the coupon?

It goes on and on. I mean seriously. Failing to meet a reasonable criteria then claiming discrimination because you refuse to meet the criteria is drama theater and ridiculous.

Malpherian · August 2014

Alphashado wrote: »

Whatever man. It isn't discrimination. Get real and quit acting like some kind of victim. The tabards are EASY TO GET. Everyone is a victim these days just because they can't get everything they want. It's pretty sad.

If you want to make a case for family guilds getting tabards that is one thing, but to suggest that keeping them from you is some kind of hate crime is outlandish.

So by your reasoning, is a bar discriminating against underage kids because they expect to see an ID proving they are over 21?

Does the DMV discriminate against you because they expect you to supply 2 forms of ID before you get a drivers license? Would you show up there with only one form of ID then demand they give you a license anyways and claim discrimination?

Would a state trooper be discriminating you for giving you a ticket because you were driving in the car pool lane with only one person?

Does the pizza delivery boy discriminate you because you are demanding a discount price w/o having the coupon?

It goes on and on. I mean seriously. Failing to meet a reasonable criteria then claiming discrimination because you refuse to meet the criteria is drama theater and ridiculous.

Marrium Webster says it is in fact Discrimination:

dis·crim·i·na·tion noun \dis-ˌkri-mə-ˈnā-shən\

: the practice of unfairly treating a person or group of people differently from other people or groups of people

In this case Large groups are given special privileges, and access to special features, whereas small groups are not. This is textbook Discrimination.

There is a difference to being a victim, and claiming to be a victim. In this case Small groups are in fact a Victim of ZOS discrimination against them.

They are not "Claiming" to be a victim, They "ARE" a victim of discimination. Big difference.

BBSooner · August 2014

It's no more discrimination than having dungeons that requires larger groups to complete as opposed to small. It's a game mechanic, or a content benchmark, and one I happen to agree with. I don't want to come up to a guild store stall and sift through a store that has 6 members selling from it.

poodlemasterb16_ESO · August 2014

Malpherian wrote: »

ZOS Advertised, and Guaranteed several idealism's and made several promises about content. Legitimately, when you take said guaranteed they are failing at delivering.

That's barely English and a 'Guaranteed idealism', LOL, may not mean what you think it does.

Malpherian · August 2014

BBSooner wrote: »

It's no more discrimination than having dungeons that requires larger groups to complete as opposed to small. It's a game mechanic, or a content benchmark, and one I happen to agree with. I don't want to come up to a guild store stall and sift through a store that has 6 members selling from it.

1.) Guilds and Dungeons are not even remotely similar in content. A Dungeon gives rewards for completing it, is challenging, and has a purpose for the function. (The reason it requires a group is because the mobs are too difficult to be soloed).

So the justification for a "Dungeon" is given by the environment of such.

2.) A Guild on the other hand is a Body, or Organization of players, there are no challenges, no Difficult NPC's to kill, and No external or environmental justification for them requiring larger groups to function correctly.

Their is no Valid or logical reason of Justification for why a small Guild can not access the Guild Features.

BBSooner · August 2014

Malpherian wrote: »

BBSooner wrote: »

It's no more discrimination than having dungeons that requires larger groups to complete as opposed to small. It's a game mechanic, or a content benchmark, and one I happen to agree with. I don't want to come up to a guild store stall and sift through a store that has 6 members selling from it.

1.) Guilds and Dungeons are not even remotely similar in content. A Dungeon gives rewards for completing it, is challenging, and has a purpose for the function. (The reason it requires a group is because the mobs are too difficult to be soloed).

So the justification for a "Dungeon" is given by the environment of such.

2.) A Guild on the other hand is a Body, or Organization of players, there are no challenges, no Difficult NPC's to kill, and No external or environmental justification for them requiring larger groups to function correctly.

Their is no Valid or logical reason of Justification for why a small Guild can not access the Guild Features.

Disagree. Content is content is content. Rewards for running a successful trade guild with a stocked store? Profit. Is it difficult to keep a range of goods to provide value to multiple types of players? Sure. It's content.

Because you dislike the system of benchmarking does not mean the reasoning isn't valid, just saying. Bold tags don't make the statement more true as well.

Malpherian · August 2014

poodlemasterb16_ESO wrote: »

Malpherian wrote: »

ZOS Advertised, and Guaranteed several idealism's and made several promises about content. Legitimately, when you take said guaranteed they are failing at delivering.

That's barely English and a 'Guaranteed idealism', LOL, may not mean what you think it does.

Actually that is English. Old english.. but english

But I'll rephrase that:

ZOS advertised, and Guaranteed that all features in game would be able to be accessed by all players. ZOS also stated that the Guilds specifically and all of their content would be accessible, by all players and all guilds.

Being on this particular topic, the guild functions are NOT accessible by all players or Guilds. Small groups and guilds have 0 access to any of the Guild features.

ZOS is failing at delivering the content and accessibility which was promised "To all Guilds".

Before you say they are accessible to all Guilds, you need to ask yourself can a 5 man Guild own a Bank, Tabard, and use the Store? If the answer is anything but "Yes" then all guilds and all players do NOT have access to said content. Making ZOS's statement false.

poodlemasterb16_ESO · August 2014

Malpherian wrote: »

poodlemasterb16_ESO wrote: »

Malpherian wrote: »

ZOS Advertised, and Guaranteed several idealism's and made several promises about content. Legitimately, when you take said guaranteed they are failing at delivering.

That's barely English and a 'Guaranteed idealism', LOL, may not mean what you think it does.

Actually that is English. Old english.. but english

But I'll rephrase that:

ZOS advertised, and Guaranteed that all features in game would be able to be accessed by all players. ZOS also stated that the Guilds specifically and all of their content would be accessible, by all players and all guilds.

Being on this particular topic, the guild functions are NOT accessible by all players or Guilds. Small groups and guilds have 0 access to any of the Guild features.

ZOS is failing at delivering the content and accessibility which was promised "To all Guilds".

Before you say they are accessible to all Guilds, you need to ask yourself can a 5 man Guild own a Bank, Tabard, and use the Store? If the answer is anything but "Yes" then all guilds and all players do NOT have access to said content. Making ZOS's statement false.

You are clutching at straws. If you think you have a legal case sue em'. That would be entertaining, unlike this stupid thread.

Malpherian · August 2014

BBSooner wrote: »

Malpherian wrote: »

BBSooner wrote: »

It's no more discrimination than having dungeons that requires larger groups to complete as opposed to small. It's a game mechanic, or a content benchmark, and one I happen to agree with. I don't want to come up to a guild store stall and sift through a store that has 6 members selling from it.

1.) Guilds and Dungeons are not even remotely similar in content. A Dungeon gives rewards for completing it, is challenging, and has a purpose for the function. (The reason it requires a group is because the mobs are too difficult to be soloed).

So the justification for a "Dungeon" is given by the environment of such.

2.) A Guild on the other hand is a Body, or Organization of players, there are no challenges, no Difficult NPC's to kill, and No external or environmental justification for them requiring larger groups to function correctly.

Their is no Valid or logical reason of Justification for why a small Guild can not access the Guild Features.

Disagree. Content is content is content. Rewards for running a successful trade guild with a stocked store? Profit. Is it difficult to keep a range of goods to provide value to multiple types of players? Sure. It's content.

Because you dislike the system of benchmarking does not mean the reasoning isn't valid, just saying. Bold tags don't make the statement more true as well.

Using the system in question to defend itself is not a valid argument either. that's circular logic. It's like saying (A Deity) is real, because (It's religious text) says it is. Which is both asinine and absurd.

Dungeons have external, and environmental justifications for requireing groups to access their content.

However:

Guilds do not.

sotonin · August 2014

i love this thread. need me some popcorn. i didn't know it was an issue, but after reading this thread I'm swayed towards agreeing that ZOS needs to change it.

BBSooner · August 2014

Malpherian wrote: »

BBSooner wrote: »

Malpherian wrote: »

BBSooner wrote: »

It's no more discrimination than having dungeons that requires larger groups to complete as opposed to small. It's a game mechanic, or a content benchmark, and one I happen to agree with. I don't want to come up to a guild store stall and sift through a store that has 6 members selling from it.

1.) Guilds and Dungeons are not even remotely similar in content. A Dungeon gives rewards for completing it, is challenging, and has a purpose for the function. (The reason it requires a group is because the mobs are too difficult to be soloed).

So the justification for a "Dungeon" is given by the environment of such.

2.) A Guild on the other hand is a Body, or Organization of players, there are no challenges, no Difficult NPC's to kill, and No external or environmental justification for them requiring larger groups to function correctly.

Their is no Valid or logical reason of Justification for why a small Guild can not access the Guild Features.

Disagree. Content is content is content. Rewards for running a successful trade guild with a stocked store? Profit. Is it difficult to keep a range of goods to provide value to multiple types of players? Sure. It's content.

Because you dislike the system of benchmarking does not mean the reasoning isn't valid, just saying. Bold tags don't make the statement more true as well.

Useing the ystem to defend itself is not a valid argument either. that's circular logic. It's like saying (A Deity) is real, because (It's religious text) says it is. Which is both asinine and absurd.

Dungeons have external, and environmental justifications for requireing groups to access their content.

However:

Guilds do not.

We'll just agree to disagree. I find guilds of varying sizes having different levels of content perfectly acceptable, and with regards to the rentable guild stores more likely to provide a use to the customer.

And indeed I hope ZOS continues with the varying levels of benchmarking.

smeeprocketnub19_ESO · August 2014

No amount of verbosity, bombastic grammar, or bolded text legitimizes your complaint.

You are using terms like discrimination to make a hotbutton issue out of something that not an issue at all. No one is actively seeking to exclude you, you simply refuse to follow a few set standards to achieve your goal.

It has been explained to you repeatedly that the entire game works this way.

That said, I want to see the actual quotes from ZOS saying that all guilds would have access to all features, and some of the other absurd claims you have made.

Super_Sonico · August 2014

Malpherian wrote: »

Meaning ... you do not have the right as a paying customer to access these features unless you want a ton of randoms in your guild ...

I keep saying this to people who want to use this as an argument for their cause. It's wrongheaded. Stop.

As a paying customer you have the exact same access to all the features that every other paying customer has. Period. They're not shafting you in any way.

If you want those features, make some friends or join another guild.

Try being in my boat where there are literally ZERO people I know in real life playing this game. Poor me, right? Nope. I went out and made some friends. Not hard to do.

Malpherian wrote: »

Even though they are obviously game breaking and even hugely damaging to the subscriber bases ability to maintain/sustain itself.

Drama much?

Nocturnalfox · August 2014

1) You shouldn'tbe able to form a guild of one. Thats not a guild, thats a Companion.
2) you shouldn't be able to acces the guild bank with fewer then 5. Becaue if you could guess waht I would do, make 4 guilds, because hey 4x500 bank slots, exploiting? Maybe, but so what...
3. Guild stores should be limited- However I am getting tired of find stores that are either empty or just selling junk. The price of a guild stores needs to be massively hiked up and there needs to be pre-req's before buying it (Ie having 200 listed items of a certain quality or rank).
4. I think from 8+ guild members you should get cloaks, 12+ bank 16+ guild merchant, that is still quite small, smaller then a war party/group.
Why those numbers? Because those are the numbers you will take on most dungeons and group content and break down (a group of 16= 4 groups).
5. I don't think you should be allowed to join multiple guilds at once. It should be a thought out decision rather then testing the water. I only joined one guild as a result.
6. There should be "guild homes" where you can upgrade and just hang out with guildies, increasing costs for plot and such.
7. You should not be allowed to form a guild with fewer then 4.
8. Fewer then 4 should form their own "travelling companions" ie adventurers,

If you want a small guild thats fine, 16 is not an unrealistic number for access to everything.

EDIT: I used the term cloaks, I mean that for any item that displays guild Heraldry, so Tabbards, maybe soon cloaks and sashimono's

sotonin · August 2014

While it's true he's been a little sensationalist, he does have some valid points. Mostly, ZOS has stated it and hasn't followed through with action to support their claims.

Phantax · August 2014

sotonin wrote: »

While it's true he's been a little sensationalist, he does have some valid points. Mostly, ZOS has stated it and hasn't followed through with action to support their claims.

At least somebody gets it !

+1

Malpherian · September 2015

Was this ever fixed?

driosketch · September 2015

Malpherian wrote: »

Was this ever fixed?

You're asking if the guild restrictions were ever lifted, I don't think any of them have been.

Thymos · September 2015

Malpherian wrote: »

2. There are lies, damned lies, and then there are statistics. And if Mark Twain had lived today, he would have added "statistics on the internet" to the end of that list. You are making things up in order to support a non-existent point. You have no idea what percentage of guilds are PvE/PvP/trade/RP/anything.

Actually I know exactly how many there are and what they do:

http://eso.guildex.org/

Terrible source. As it is an optional database service, that not everyone has registered their guilds on.

My guild isn't registered on it, and I know of a few others that are not. That website does not have an accurate representation of the total playerbase like you seem to believe it does.

For the NA server, it only lists 525 guilds. And that list includes PS4 NA, PC NA, and Xbox 1 NA. What a joke.

SirAndy · September 2015

Thymos wrote: »

Malpherian wrote: »

Actually I know exactly how many there are and what they do:
http://eso.guildex.org/

Terrible source .. What a joke

None of my 5 guilds are listed! All of which have been around since beta. Complete BS ...

Malpherian · September 2015

SirAndy wrote: »

Thymos wrote: »

Malpherian wrote: »

Actually I know exactly how many there are and what they do:
http://eso.guildex.org/

Terrible source .. What a joke

None of my 5 guilds are listed! All of which have been around since beta. Complete BS ...

Yes I mentioned earlier in the thread that I mistook that source as a ZOE/ZOS ran site which tracked such (Like blizzard has for wow).

So that was my mistake there, but as I also pointed out I still think the other points are valid.

Belidos · September 2015

Malpherian wrote: »

Its not every guild no, but you can look at those and use some deductive reasoning to find a reasonable and workable variable. I am not sure why everyone has so much difficulty with this these days........ Is it exact? No. But it gives a good impression of the whole.

No, not at all, not in any way. Coming from someone who has operated a site similar to this in another MMO i have to say to start with sites like this attract only the more organized, dedicated, and larger guilds to register, many many small guild will not even know it is there, so therefore the demographic is automatically skewed in the favour of larger more organized guilds. It wouldn't be surprising if the actual numbers were the exact opposite of what is seen here.

Wait: This is a necro post, why after a whole year is it being bumped?

Molag_Crow · September 2015

Agreed. Nice topic!

RoamingRiverElk · September 2015

Malpherian wrote: »

Alphashado wrote: »

Sigh. Really? Another thread about the exact same issue?

Maybe you haven't played any other MMO, but stuff is standard. Every game out there has requirements that must be met for similar perks. It's not just zos. The reason there is a standard is because there has to be standards otherwise they wouldn't be perks.

You would be.. Incorrect.

* WoW = 5 people can forma guild.
* Tera = 2 People can form a guild
* Guild Wars 2 and Guild Wars = 1 person can form a guild.
* Aion = 1 person can form a guild
* Rift = 4 people can form a guild
* Eve Online = 1 person can form a Guild
* Perpetuum = 1 person can form a guild
*
* I could go on but I think the point is made.

NONE OF THESE HAVE ANY GUILD FUNCTIONS RESTRICTED BASED ON MEMBER SIZE!!!

Just FYI. But if you like I could go game by game on that list and tell you exactly what is and is not restricted and why and how to access it. I have played every single one of them. Even beta tested some of them, AND lead guilds in every single one of them.

No Other MMO besides ESO limits guild finctions based on "member Size". All of them have a Basic sized Guild bank, Basic Tabard, and basic store access (if the game supports it) upon creation and with only the minimal amount of members required to "form it".

ESO is the only MMO game which lets you create a Guild which is in effect, Worthless with no functionality.

It does have functionality even with a guild consisting of two people: a common chat channel (two in fact), and the ability to claim keeps and resources in Cyrodiil.

That being said, I think that they should allow people to have tabards even in a guild of two. And when it comes to bank, maybe make it so that with guilds with less than ten people, the guild bank has, say, 30 item slots per person.