The Huge Mistake and Horrible Business decision that is the Current Guild system~

apostate9

Phantax wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

While we're at it, I should be able to form a guild by myself, get the free 500-slot bank, a store where people just pay me money and a special set of armor, weapons and chat-macro that proclaims my beauty to all the corners of the world.

You want access to group content rewards? Group up.

You want access to guild rewards? Get a guild.

Honestly. Do you want a game, or do you want Matt Firor to cook you lunch and massage your feet?

No, he probably just reserves that for you !

The rest of us just want to be able to play the game the way we want and if that means people want to be able to form a guild with 1,2,3,4 or 5 people they should be allowed to !
Not be forced to group with 10 strangers just so that they can access certain guild functions ! If a small group of friends want their own guild or a family then they should be allowed to... end of !

This is how I want to play. I want to be the Emperor right now, and I want to RP the Emperor appropriately, so I'm gonna need a palace. And a set of that epic trials armor...I saw a guy wearing it the other day and thought "wow, that looks great!"

So I need it. Now. I don't see why other people should get it and I can't have it. I need it NOW to play the way I want(tm). Oh, and I want to fly, and one-hit all mobs.

If they don't accommodate me, then the game sucks, and I'm gonna write a strongly worded letter.

Talrenos

"ZOS is strangely quiet on this and refuses to comment or give a reason for these restrictions. Even though they are obviously game breaking and even hugely damaging to the subscriber bases ability to maintain/sustain itself."

ZOS is not strangely quiet, its is actually they believe their guild system and how it works to be innovative and a new industry standard.

Actually I do not actually care any longer. This game is limited time for me because ZOS refuses to fix things.

SirAndy

Good lord, please not another "I want everything at level 1 with no effort on my part" thread.

I actually have real life experience with guilds.
4 people don't make a guild, at best, that's a knitting circle ...

OrangeTheCat

Iorail wrote: »

Do we really have to make another post this? wasn't the other 5 on this same page enough?

What he is basically saying is 'ESO is not family-friendly' which is SO unAmerican.

I also dislike the whole you-can-be-in-up-to-five-guilds-at-once thing. Didn't like it in GW2, don't like here.

Filth

Laerania_ESO wrote: »

I suspect the guild system is designed with PvP big battles - the apple of their eyes- in mind, not PvE.

That's why you see a dissociation between the guild system and the usual family/friends guilds that other mmorpgs allow.

Anyways, a nice description of some bizarre mmo conceptions these people have in mind. One day they are in 2014 and the next in 2001.

Explain Bat Swarm if big PvP battles are the apple of their eyes.

The ROFLNOOBZERGfest that is PvP in its current state is the most unenjoyable trash MMORPG content I have ever been subject to. I dare you to venture onto the 14 day campaign (EU) as a non-daggerbruv.
Every night, the smurfs capture every single objectives. All of them. Every single one. After 2 AM it's literally ~100 daggersm8, ~3 bananas and ~3 lovers occupying Cyrodil. How's that supposed to be fun?

Complete and utter imbalance aside, where's the fun in the zerg vs zerg that happens under "normal" PVP circumstances? Whomever has the most/best synchronized bat swarms win the fight, simple as.
....

Phantax

SirAndy wrote: »

Good lord, please not another "I want everything at level 1 with no effort on my part" thread.

I actually have real life experience with guilds.
4 people don't make a guild, at best, that's a knitting circle ...

You're right, it's not another "I want everything at level 1 with no effort on my part" thread.
Or at least you'd have realised that if you'd bothered to read the OPs comments properly !

Phantax

OrangeTheCat wrote: »

Iorail wrote: »

Do we really have to make another post this? wasn't the other 5 on this same page enough?

What he is basically saying is 'ESO is not family-friendly' which is SO unAmerican.

I also dislike the whole you-can-be-in-up-to-five-guilds-at-once thing. Didn't like it in GW2, don't like here.

Agreed, on both points !

+1

TehMagnus

This is an MMORPG
Hint: One of the Ms stands for:

- - - M U L T I P L A Y E R - - -

The limits are there for a reason:

10 people for bank: So that 99% of the players don't just create a guild for the extra 500 inventory without actually doing something about it.

50 people for trading: Because if you don't have 50 people the amount of things you got to sell is ridiculous anyways and because as a guild leader you earn money, might as well make you work for it a bit.

If you only play with 4 or 5 people, you have a friend list which is more than enough for so few people it's also much easier to talk to them if you want to give/trade an item.

If you don't want more than 10 people in your friends/family guild, you can still join 4 more trading guilds or even make one, two, three, four! on the side, recruit 50 players and more like many people have done and enjoy your 500 bank space.

Ridiculous post.

Blezer

n the interest of this discussion and others on the forum. I created a poll to vote for a change in the system of guild banks. If you do want a change I thing the best is to vote for it. Guild Bank - Vaults/Tabs Enjoy

sotonin

Do i think you should be able to get a guild bank with only 4 members? No. I do not. Do i think the storage is completely jacked in this game? Yes. It needs a revamp. More storage or cut down on ingredients and add some sort of crafting specific storage and trophies etc. Something has to change though

BBSooner

It's ok to not like the guild system. I'm glad ZOS is sticking with it though.

sotonin

BBSooner wrote: »

It's ok to not like the guild system. I'm glad ZOS is sticking with it though.

Why? Do you enjoy being in a bunch of guilds that you don't give two cents about? Do you enjoy there being absolutely no sense of ownership or pride associated with guilds? Because that's the system ZOS has created. The guild system is completely useless.

Shadow-Fighter

@Malpherian‌
+1

AlnilamE

While I do not doubt your ability to outbid a large guild for a trader in a metropolitan centre, you must keep in mind that each guild member can only put 30 items for sale at a time, which in your case would be 120-150 items (I can't remember if your guild has 4 or 5 members, sorry!).

Would you be willing to spend the week that you have the trader for online almost 24/7 replenishing your store so that you don't get known as "the guild that never has anything good for sale"?

Or would you rather spend your time doing other things and occasionally sell stuff in zone chat instead?

I'm really sorry that this issue frustrates you so much, but I really feel that you are the one limiting yourself.

BBSooner

sotonin wrote: »

BBSooner wrote: »

It's ok to not like the guild system. I'm glad ZOS is sticking with it though.

Why? Do you enjoy being in a bunch of guilds that you don't give two cents about? Do you enjoy there being absolutely no sense of ownership or pride associated with guilds? Because that's the system ZOS has created. The guild system is completely useless.

I enjoy the money I've made buying low in one market and selling high to another. There are actual dynamics to trading in this game instead of a flat price. You don't have to enjoy it, but I like it.

liquid_wolf

Issues will be fixed over time.

It isn't like that haven't had major content updates every 4-6 weeks, and bug-fixes every week.

Malpherian

Alphashado wrote: »

I'm sorry, but to me you sound like someone demanding access to to the kiddie rides just because you paid for general admission. Or the guy that brings 20 items to the 10 items or less line. Or the guy that drives in the car pool lane by himself. Or the guy trying to get a group discount on a date. Or the guy buying a steak and an energy drink with food stamps. Or the guy that makes the cashier dig for coupons.

My apologies, Your royal highness. I did not realize that the poor of society which work to make it possible for you to be rich, did not desrve or have the right to eat and feed themselves.

Since your so ignominable, why don't you send me 100,000$ So I can invest it properly and never have to worry about using food-stamps again, or coupons, or trying to get the best price available for family activities because the US Economy sucks, jobs are slim, and your lucky if you have enough to pay the bills at the end of the month, let a lone Eat.

You are where you are because others put you on your pedestal. Don't forget that those same people can knock you off it.

Malpherian

sotonin wrote: »

I can't find any historical info about it now, but i am pretty damn sure the 5 player limit for guild creation used to be significantly higher when wow launched. (like 20?) I just remember in the back of my mind it being a pain in the ass to form a guild. Wow has been consistently nerfing stuff for the carebear whiners who want everything on a silver platter.

I don't think there's anything wrong with guilds in ESO as a guild mechanism. But as a trade mechanism it's completely stupid and they need to remove that aspect from the guild system and add an AH. Let the guild system actually be for you know.... guilds. As it is now, nobody gives a [snip] about their guild members or their guild in general, which is a very bad precedent to start in the MMO world.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Cursing & Profanity]

I beta tested WoW, and played through Cata. The guild limit for creation was always low. It was actually only 1 when WoW first launched (if I remember right, but I know for a fact it was never over 5).

Alphashado

Malpherian wrote: »

Alphashado wrote: »

I'm sorry, but to me you sound like someone demanding access to to the kiddie rides just because you paid for general admission. Or the guy that brings 20 items to the 10 items or less line. Or the guy that drives in the car pool lane by himself. Or the guy trying to get a group discount on a date. Or the guy buying a steak and an energy drink with food stamps. Or the guy that makes the cashier dig for coupons.

My apologies, Your royal highness. I did not realize that the poor of society which work to make it possible for you to be rich, did not desrve or have the right to eat and feed themselves.

Since your so ignominable, why don't you send me 100,000$ So I can invest it properly and never have to worry about using food-stamps again, or coupons, or trying to get the best price available for family activities because the US Economy sucks, jobs are slim, and your lucky if you have enough to pay the bills at the end of the month, let a lone Eat.

You are where you are because others put you on your pedestal. Don't forget that those same people can knock you off it.

I work my ass off at a blue collar 12 hr swing shift job in a dangerous environment. I have earned the few nice things I have with blood, sweat, and tears. Not one single thing has ever been handed to me. Ever. And I have absolutely no problem with food stamps or coupons. Maybe you should actually read the words in someone's post before you respond.

What I do have a problem with is entitlements. "I demand this and I demand that, and I don't want to work for any of it".

Coming here and demanding access to perks w/o meeting the criteria is no different. What I supplied was a list of examples of people trying to take advantage of existing perks w/o meeting the criteria.

So try reading before you toss out blanket untrue ridiculous insults. If you can't make a reasonable statement without insulting someone, then nobody will take you seriously.

Malpherian

Alphashado wrote: »

I work my ass off at a blue collar 12 hr swing shift job in a dangerous environment. I have earned the few nice things I have with blood, sweat, and tears. Not one single thing has ever been handed to me. Ever. And I have absolutely no problem with food stamps or coupons. Maybe you should actually read the words in someone's post before you respond.

What I do have a problem with is entitlements. "I demand this and I demand that, and I don't want to work for any of it".

Coming here and demanding access to perks w/o meeting the criteria is no different. What I supplied was a list of examples of people trying to take advantage of existing perks w/o meeting the criteria.

So try reading before you toss out blanket untrue ridiculous insults. If you can't make a reasonable statement without insulting someone, then nobody will take you seriously.

No one on this thread is demanding anything that ZOS has not already promised. Interpretation of said promise is not defined by ZOS, as ZOS refuses to respond or make a statement on said matters.

ZOS Advertised, and Guaranteed several idealism's and made several promises about content. Legitimately, when you take said guaranteed they are failing at delivering.

Restricting a feature like guild functions, A staple and the core aspect of an MMO, "To discriminate against small groups" is in direct contradiction with ZOS advertisements and guarantees about ESO. Especially when the vast majority of the game is designed for small groups (< or = to 4 people)

Many of you are saying that is the way it is deal with, or using the system itself to validate the system itself. Which is called circular logic. It's like saying (A deity) is real because (It's Religious Book) says it is. Which is not only asinine and absurd, but absolutely no proof at all.

Proof of validity must come from outside the system to validate said systems Logic, or Justification for how and or why it is designed and functions the way it does.

ZOS refuses to speak on it. No one else has any relevant or valid information on why the system was design that way, and the only logical evidence states that the system is broken in so many ways it isn't even remotely funny.

This being the case No one has any right to state in a factual manner, "in defense of said system", why the system is the way it is, because you all do not know. So anything you say is irrelevant when stated as a fact.

Some of you like the system, great, some of you simply do not care, great, and some of you hate the system and have Valid, major complaints against it.

What I HAVE seen posted here, is evidence after evidence of Logical Empirical proof for why the system is broken,

What I have NOT seen, is "Logical and Empirical" evidence for why it isn't broken.

So those of you supporting need to stop with the suck it up/Deal with it/Shut up posts, and get real, or STFU, and let others voice their complaints.

Malpherian

Alphashado wrote: »

I work my ass off at a blue collar 12 hr swing shift job in a dangerous environment. I have earned the few nice things I have with blood, sweat, and tears. Not one single thing has ever been handed to me. Ever. And I have absolutely no problem with food stamps or coupons. Maybe you should actually read the words in someone's post before you respond.

What I do have a problem with is entitlements. "I demand this and I demand that, and I don't want to work for any of it".

Coming here and demanding access to perks w/o meeting the criteria is no different. What I supplied was a list of examples of people trying to take advantage of existing perks w/o meeting the criteria.

So try reading before you toss out blanket untrue ridiculous insults. If you can't make a reasonable statement without insulting someone, then nobody will take you seriously.

I did read it:

"Or the guy trying to get a group discount on a date. Or the guy buying a steak and an energy drink with food stamps. Or the guy that makes the cashier dig for coupons."

Your statement and implications, were pretty cut and dry. You made a hostile advance laced with disapproval, then stated the above.

Maybe that's not what you intended, Fair enough. But you should think before combining such expletives in a paragraph without more clarification on hot button points.

AoEnwyr

I agree with the lack of functionality for smaller guilds of RL family and friends. If you think of guilds in terms of real world organisations, not all organisations are large. There are the small family businesses that do quite well. I have some close friends and a partner who are in a small guild together, not that it actually serves any purpose other than providing a private chat channel as with our 5 members we can't use any of the guild functions.

If it is an issue of ZOS not wanting people to create small guilds just to get access of a large amount of "free" storage via the guild bank, then they could scale the number of bank slots with the size of the guild at key membership milestones. This provides some functionality while making sure that the guild bank doesn't get exploited.

dean_steusloffub17_ESO

Malpherian wrote: »

Actually I know exactly how many there are and what they do:

http://eso.guildex.org/

Its not every guild no, but you can look at those and use some deductive reasoning to find a reasonable and workable variable. I am not sure why everyone has so much difficulty with this these days........ Is it exact? No. But it gives a good impression of the whole.

Besides how many guilds there are and what they do isn't really the point of this thread anyway.

Yeah, this contradiction made me stop giving the most remote f*** about this thread.

Phantax

sotonin wrote: »

BBSooner wrote: »

It's ok to not like the guild system. I'm glad ZOS is sticking with it though.

Why? Do you enjoy being in a bunch of guilds that you don't give two cents about? Do you enjoy there being absolutely no sense of ownership or pride associated with guilds? Because that's the system ZOS has created. The guild system is completely useless.

Pretty much sums up the whole ESO guild system for me !

+1

Malpherian

dean_steusloffub17_ESO wrote: »

Malpherian wrote: »

Actually I know exactly how many there are and what they do:

http://eso.guildex.org/

Its not every guild no, but you can look at those and use some deductive reasoning to find a reasonable and workable variable. I am not sure why everyone has so much difficulty with this these days........ Is it exact? No. But it gives a good impression of the whole.

Besides how many guilds there are and what they do isn't really the point of this thread anyway.

Yeah, this contradiction made me stop giving the most remote f*** about this thread.

There wasn't a contradiction in my post, I thought that was the official ZOS ran guild site (Like the one several other MMO's have that keep track of their guilds). It was simply a mistake on my part to make said assumption.

It still does not retract from the validity of the rest of the post or what others have posted on here.

Salyyn

I read the first few posts, and got a headache, so, forgive me if this is stated somewhere in here already.

The Fighter's GUILD
The Mage's GUILD
The Thieve's GUILD

These are examples of a GUILD, as what they are in the Elder Scrolls universe. Do you honestly expect every arch mage of the Mage's Guild to know every new recruit? Most of them do not even associate themselves outside of their own small group within the guild. Let's look at Oblivion as an example. One of the mages tries to trick you into dying. That sounds like a nice bunch of fellow guildmates, right? And, the Fighter's Guild is no different. Constant inner competition to be the best possible, get the most side contracts, and so on. And, we'll leave the Thieve's Guild alone for now, because that's an entire different mess.

Anyway, that's the design behind the guilds of ESO. Not your small family guild group things that other games have tried to set up. If you want a small group designed set up, then ask for one instead of complaining that the guilds aren't designed the way you like them, because as far as the lore, and the devs are concerned, the guilds are fine as they are.

Malpherian

Salyyn wrote: »

I read the first few posts, and got a headache, so, forgive me if this is stated somewhere in here already.

The Fighter's GUILD
The Mage's GUILD
The Thieve's GUILD

These are examples of a GUILD, as what they are in the Elder Scrolls universe. Do you honestly expect every arch mage of the Mage's Guild to know every new recruit? Most of them do not even associate themselves outside of their own small group within the guild. Let's look at Oblivion as an example. One of the mages tries to trick you into dying. That sounds like a nice bunch of fellow guildmates, right? And, the Fighter's Guild is no different. Constant inner competition to be the best possible, get the most side contracts, and so on. And, we'll leave the Thieve's Guild alone for now, because that's an entire different mess.

Anyway, that's the design behind the guilds of ESO. Not your small family guild group things that other games have tried to set up. If you want a small group designed set up, then ask for one instead of complaining that the guilds aren't designed the way you like them, because as far as the lore, and the devs are concerned, the guilds are fine as they are.

This is a good theory, and may be true (We just don't know), unfortunately if it is, it's still a horrible business decision.

when your dealing with real people and not Fantasy NPC's, Designing and implementing a "Guild System" system that intentionally discriminates against small groups of friends, and Families, is not exactly conducive to exploiting a consumer base full of small groups of friends and families.

Who just happen to be I might add, the Majority of the TES fan-base.

Phantax

Malpherian wrote: »

when your dealing with real people and not Fantasy NPC's, Designing and implementing a "Guild System" system that intentionally discriminates against small groups of friends, and Families, is not exactly conducive to exploiting a consumer base full of small groups of friends and families.

Who just happen to be I might add, the Majority of the TES fan-base.

Agreed 100%
Shame Zenimax seem able to understand this !

Malpherian

In my honest opinion, for me anyway, I think ESO is done. I hope ZOE and Bethesda have learned a great deal about what to, and what not to do. So that in the Fallout MMO, it goes off without a hitch.

But ESO has been plagued for too long (For those of us from long term Beta) to be fixed, ZOS has done the damage and Alienated millions of Could be, and might have been Subscribers.

Even with all the cool new stuff being added, as I said the damage is already done. and ESO will most likely be F2P by December of next year if not sooner because that is the only way ZOS is going to recoup their losses on members.

Salyyn

Malpherian wrote: »

Salyyn wrote: »

I read the first few posts, and got a headache, so, forgive me if this is stated somewhere in here already.

The Fighter's GUILD
The Mage's GUILD
The Thieve's GUILD

These are examples of a GUILD, as what they are in the Elder Scrolls universe. Do you honestly expect every arch mage of the Mage's Guild to know every new recruit? Most of them do not even associate themselves outside of their own small group within the guild. Let's look at Oblivion as an example. One of the mages tries to trick you into dying. That sounds like a nice bunch of fellow guildmates, right? And, the Fighter's Guild is no different. Constant inner competition to be the best possible, get the most side contracts, and so on. And, we'll leave the Thieve's Guild alone for now, because that's an entire different mess.

Anyway, that's the design behind the guilds of ESO. Not your small family guild group things that other games have tried to set up. If you want a small group designed set up, then ask for one instead of complaining that the guilds aren't designed the way you like them, because as far as the lore, and the devs are concerned, the guilds are fine as they are.

This is a good theory, and may be true (We just don't know), unfortunately if it is, it's still a horrible business decision.

when your dealing with real people and not Fantasy NPC's, Designing and implementing a "Guild System" system that intentionally discriminates against small groups of friends, and Families, is not exactly conducive to exploiting a consumer base full of small groups of friends and families.

Who just happen to be I might add, the Majority of the TES fan-base.

It seems you missed the majority of what my post was about. Those examples are the exact meaning of what a guild really is.

guild
gild/Submit
noun
noun: guild; plural noun: guilds; noun: gild; plural noun: gilds
a medieval association of craftsmen or merchants, often having considerable power.
an association of people for mutual aid or the pursuit of a common goal.
synonyms: association, society, union, league, organization, company, cooperative, fellowship, club, order, lodge, brotherhood, fraternity, sisterhood, sorority

While I approve of having those friends and family groups, they are not guilds as to the definition of the word means, so, I'm sorry, but, why do you expect people to see it that way? And, to the problems that were brought up as I skimmed more posts, not caring about your guilds: Let's face it. This is the internet. People are going to be jack a**es. It's like frequenting an open market (for the trade guild example) and complaining that someone just ripped you off.

As I said, ask for something new, something that caters to the smaller groups outside of the standard /group, instead of breaking apart what is, in essence, completely fine.