Complaining about things that are wrong with the game, while still enjoying it, is one thing. But these rants... I don't get why are people paying a sub for a game they don't enjoy playing.

Valid points, everyone.

With one exception: You -can- play your way. Just because some elitist *** don't want you in their uber-elite trial group because you're not FOTM build doesn't invalidate every other build.

If you're a good player, a supposedly 'broken' build can work and, personally, I'd never run with a group that tried to dictate how I play MY character.

Reason I think game can still be called "beta":
Animation Cancelling for faster attacking and spell casting.

Thralgaf wrote: »

Life is a beta.

That's deep, yo.

Anastasia wrote: »

If you can succintly tell me what TESO's real identity RIGHT NOW is and what the emphasis supposedly is on where its going in say three or four sentences, I'd love to read it.

Might give me something additional to feel optimistic about. I see a reed that was once in its development stages firm and facing sun-ward, now softening and blowin every which way in really, the softest of breezes.

Give it a shot… but it aint going to be 3-4 sentences. Keep in mind I have just reached VR12 and am just now starting Crag and the like, so current "endgame" is not where I am coming from.

They tried to make a game that was different than any MMO experience you have had. I believe they succeeded.

Crafting:

The ability to craft everything… to gather everything… is paramount here. No alts necessary to achieve an account that can do everything in this very large part of MMO gaming. Huge believer in the original concept of a "MAIN" character being your identity in an MMO.

Skills:

Having basic class and racial only a small percentage of what is available to EVERY character created in the game (with a little effort) also is something I have never seen before. I like it. I like that you have to level skills themselves as well as the trees they fall in instead of just hitting a new character level and picking a new skill. The ability for them to alter the game by adding new skill lines that everyone will have access to, tied to things like the Thieves Guild for example, makes for a very flexible system with lots of longevity.

Graphics, Sound and Story:

All are damn near the best I have ever seen. No one can argue that this game isn't beautiful. The score and effects are pretty damn good and most of the voiceover is quality work. The quests for the most part aren't go get this for no real reason and then kill a bunch of those things for another lack of a good reason. These are ties together within their hubs and each zone has arcing storyline that ties it altogether. There is a reason for most of what you do when questing. Granted that the jarring story jump from 1-50 story arcs to the Silver and Gold VR leveling experience needs work, a better reasoning behind it, at least remove the references to your soul being missing. As far as broken quests, the few I have seen (not during beta and early release of course) were addressed and I was able to do them later… and I have done them all.

PvP:

Aside from the numerous issues with bugs, lag and exploits filling the forums… the concept is great and I have had a lot of fun when I have participated. The zone is as big as many MMO continents, you can seriously just lose yourself in there exploring the delves and quests aside from the battles. I see this getting better and better. Just an opinion.

Bots, Cheaters and Spammers:

Adjustment after tweak after fix after patch, they have dealt with a vast majority of this crap… I barely see any of it anymore. No, I'm no fanboy. I got OOPS banned, caught in a net like Flipper when they dealt with bank duping, and was immediately reinstated with a half-ass apology… but I'm glad they dealt with the cheaters.

Wait, you wanted to know where it's going…

I'm assuming you have seen the QuakeCon 90 minute panel video.

Imperial City sounds amazing… you gain access to it by holding a majority of the targets, not the 6 keeps for emperor, that will change peoples gameplay dramatically. Different sections of the city having different reasons to control, new set gear, etc...

Spellcrafting gives completionists like me a new reason to spend another 4-500 hours exploring and gathering. Also adding Destruction, Conjuration and Restoration skill trees to the game… for EVERYONE that wants to pursue them? Oh yeah!

The new solo and group zones coming? Nuff said, little bit for everyone there.

The undaunted becoming a real "faction" type rep reward system? Hell yeah!

Liked the facial animations, the new gear styles, Dragonstar Arena mini-trials for 4 man… pretty much all of that video had me excited for the future of this game.

The discussions Paul Sage has had in other venues about dumping the VR system for the Champion system also gets me going…

What is not to love about where it is headed?

Tannakaobi wrote: »

It's a TES game. Bugs and problems are to be expected, it's a price you pay for playing a game designed with heart and soul rather than to simply make money.

I'm afraid that changed about midway through the Oblivion development cycle. Just ask any Morrowind fanboy.

Stonesthrow wrote: »

Just hit VR-12 on first guy last weekend.

this is the reason.
game is fun until you questing, doing stuff like harvesting/exploration/crafting you first gear and complete trials.
after you reach all I listed above - there is nothing you can do ingame except cyrodil.
last one is bugged, lagged and disbalanced like hell.

so, just play as much as you enjoying. until you will be annoyed beta stage of this game

^ I have a feeling my friends are going to burn out before too long. One played to level 18 and hasn't been on in two weeks. The other three have been with it since a month after release and are VR 1-2, but I don't see them making it much beyond where we are now. I started the game alone and before long, that's where I'll be again. I'll have the freedom to progress at a pace that actually suits me (I should have been VR12 within a month of release), but I will too start to feel less inclined to play if issues aren't resolved.

liquid_wolf wrote: »

Beta?

I'm pretty sure this game has more content, patches, and updates this close to release than any other MMORPG out there.

This isn't a beta... but it is a behemoth!

It's true, the rate of new content is fantastic. It's just that said content is niche at best, save for admittedly awesome fluff content. The problem is that the core foundation is seeing very few fixes and polish, and balance changes are so subtle they may as well not be happening.

Looooooooooollllllllll :DD

makkon wrote: »

Stonesthrow wrote: »

Just hit VR-12 on first guy last weekend.

this is the reason.
game is fun until you questing, doing stuff like harvesting/exploration/crafting you first gear and complete trials.
after you reach all I listed above - there is nothing you can do ingame except cyrodil.
last one is bugged, lagged and disbalanced like hell.

so, just play as much as you enjoying. until you will be annoyed beta stage of this game

Thanks for the pro tip, but I won't "be annoyed beta stage of this game" as you so elegantly put it.

I stated… at length why I feel that 90% of what you just listed above is NOT in Beta stage, yet you insist that PvP is all there will be to do and it's still in Beta.

I have been playing video games since the late 70s and I know what I like, can sense what I can expect… bah, never mind…. that speech just makes me feel old.

Every single MMO out there has a finite amount of content to set out to "clear" during a set period of time.

An expansion hits in a typical MMO introducing a few new zones, a new class and some dungeons and raids for example… then you wait a year… or two for the next big dump of content.

This game launched with a LOT of quest content, more than any game out there, lots of 4 man dungeons, Veteran 4 mans and your dreaded Cyrodill.

They have added a couple 12 man "raids", a full 4 man zone, more Veteran Dungeons - all within 4 months of launch… with more on the way, soon.

You need to learn patience or move on.

Lynx7386 wrote: »

I really wanted ESO to be my next 'starwars galaxies' - the next sandbox mmo that would incite some nostalgia and give me something to waste away my free time in.

That explains everything
The SWG nostalgic were the most vocal critics of SWTOR. Endless complaining.
In the end, you REALLY WANTED ESO to be something it never ever, promised to be.

You know what, I REALLY want my burger to taste like vanilla ice cream.
Then I will complain it doesn't

linus2503 wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

I really wanted ESO to be my next 'starwars galaxies' - the next sandbox mmo that would incite some nostalgia and give me something to waste away my free time in.

That explains everything
The SWG nostalgic were the most vocal critics of SWTOR. Endless complaining.
In the end, you REALLY WANTED ESO to be something it never ever, promised to be.

You know what, I REALLY want my burger to taste like vanilla ice cream.
Then I will complain it doesn't

You're taking things a little far out of context. Eso was originally portrayed as an open world mmo with a loose skill system that only used classes as a starting point; a game where you could do what you want however you wanted - where you could be a spell casting tank, a plate wearing dual wielding healer or any other crazy combo you could think of.

To me, that sounds very much like a Sandbox experience - play your way and do what you want.

In reality, we received a class based, trinity based, theme park mmo that is not only highly restrictive in terms of game play but is also so poorly designed and balanced that we're all forced into one play style regardless of what we want to do or what role we're filling. Tanks, healers, and dps alike stuck in light armor with staffs.

apostate9 wrote: »

Ninnghizhidda wrote: »

Up to this very point ESO is quite simply a game designed for all those who really love to play "mages". I am sure they are thrilled at the options they have to make "perfect" characters that can face-roll everything.

So, for this particular category of players, indeed, ESO is THE game ever. For the others though... It is becoming ever increasingly irritating, especially when you have been a fanatic (not just a fan) for the real Elder Scrolls games, for almost 20 years.

There is no choice, no nothing. They grab you by the throat, and if you don't agree to be that "dress + broomstick" thing, you are guaranteed NOT to enjoy your gaming experience.

Not because the game does not have an awesome setting, environment, world, story, dialogues and all that. But because it only has pathetic, horribly designed "classes" that are just different variations of the same freaking M A G E.

I am still not sure if I should call this a Beta or an Alpha even, because how can you have a serious AAA world-class game that so obviously and blatantly forces people to one particular direction?

Yes, yes, I know they are hard working on "fixes", and yes I do see that they are good when they want, to make progress in particular areas. On the other hand, I am not sure I am willing to wait another couple of years until they will finally let me play a fooking "warrior character", in a few words, play the game as I want, and I am not even asking for anything more than the very obvious, having the choice to play an archetypal kind of character, available in each and every other Elder Scrolls title, and just about in any other game, since time immemorial. Period.

OK:

I see this sentiment on these forums all the time, and I just... remained mystified. Are you guys playing ESO the Game, or ESO the Forum? Because in the Forum version, every single player has to wave a stick, or it's insta-gib. In the real version, I see people in medium and heavy quite literally ALL THE TIME, and I myself use 1h/s and heavy armor. I have a VERY favorable KDR in every single session of PVP, and in PVE in the VR Gold zones I still go all boggly eyed if I actuall DIE to less than 5 mobs. It rarely occurs that I can't solo anything sort of a dolmen if I really try hard, and the quest content still ranges from "EZ Mode" to "Moderately difficult while drunk".

So you can absolutely NOT guarantee any such thing. I don't own a staff. I use staff exactly never. I faceroll a healthy percentage of the cross-dressing population in Cyrodil, enough to feel "successful", so I urge you to stop playing the Forum version, and try the actual game. TURN THE FORUMS OFF. They lie.

Part of the "only sticks and dresses work" mentality is left-over sentiment from when vet zones were much harder, and before any of the stamina build balancing changes were put into effect.

Realistically, they're not all that far apart anymore. To any min/maxer, however, spell builds are still the way to go. Compared to the destruction and restoration staff skill lines, the dual wield, 2h, shield, and bow lines all look very poorly cobbled together from abilities that do not synergize well with each other or with class skill trees. The way the trees are fundamentally designed causes issues with their use, and even if the balancing act is a little better now than it used to be, it's still clear to anyone trying to make the absolute best of their character's build that you need to use a staff and light armor.



There's a few core issues between magicka(staff) and stamina(melee) builds right now:


1. Stat Synergies:
All class skill trees, and all class abilities, scale with spell power and magicka. MOST class abilities also scale with spell critical chance (a few use weapon critical instead). If you're putting together a magicka-based build using a staff, you're going to want to maximize your magicka, spell power, and spell critical chance. The restoration and destruction staff skill lines scale with those same stats (some of the attacks use weapon power, but will still benefit in some way from spell power or magicka). If your'e putting together a melee weapon build, however, you're encouraged to use stats which do not synergize with what your class skill trees need.

The end result is that if you want to use a melee weapon and have that weapon not suck, you need to gimp your own class skills in exchange. A staff user will always have more powerful class -and- weapon abilities at his or her disposal, while a melee/bow user will always sacrafice one or the other, and not for any real gain.



2. Armor Passives:
The light armor skill line offers a blanket cost reduction to all magicka-using abilities, as well as a small amount of spell critical chance, high spell penetration, and magicka regeneration. For a build that uses a staff and magicka abilities, all of your class abilities will benefit from the spell penetration and reduced cost light armor provides.
The medium armor skill line offers weapon critical chance, stamina regeneration, and reduced stamina costs, as well as some haste. The weapon critical chance will apply to a few class abilities, but not most. The stamina regeneration, reduced stamina costs, and haste do not affect -any- of your class abilities, only weapon abilities.
The heavy armor skill line offers some increased melee weapon damage, but comes horribly short on all other stat perks. That weapon damage increase also doesnt effect any of your class abilities.

With all that in mind, why would you go with anything BUT light armor? The one situation where medium armor 'kind of' works is for a nightblade using melee-crit-based class abilities in conjunction with weapon abilities, but the fact remains that other than a bit of critical chance your class abilities arent benefitting from your armor at all. Heavy armor provides no benefit whatsoever to class abilities.

Additionally, with the huge percentage of players running spell builds right now, the light armor line is offering you massive spell resistance through passives - so you're guaranteed to have more actual defense against enemy players than you would in medium or heavy armor.



3. Resource division:
Dodging, blocking, interrupting/bashing, sprinting, stealthing, and CC breaking are all tied to stamina. Magicka has no innate skills tied to it. For a spell/staff based build, this means that you have your -entire- primary resource pool (magicka) to do whatever you want, and you will always have your entire backup resource pool (stamina) to sprint, block, bash, cc break, or whathaveyou. A melee/stamina build, on the other hand, always has to reserve stamina for these innate skills, and gains no secondary benefits from magicka like a spell user gains from stamina. Not only does this make resouce management more difficult, it means that you're having to split one resource pool between offense and defense, while spell builds have one resource pool for offense and defense, and a second resource pool for additional defense.



4. Skill Tree Design:
Probably the topic that concerns me most here, at the moment, is how poorly designed melee weapon trees are compared to the staff skill trees.

In the destruction staff skill line, you have amazing synergy between weakness to elements, force shock, and impulse - they all benefit from one another. This gives you massive debuffing, single target damage, and area damage in three skills that all work well enough with one another to be put on the same weapon bar. On top of those, you've got moderately good control via destructive touch, and additional area damage through wall of elements.
Through passives, the different staff types (fire/ice/shock) provide you with a little bit of personal choice in how you want your character to play - pure damage, tank-ish, or control based.

In the restoration staff line, you get an innate 10% damage bonus (at least, when at full health) to all abilities - including class abilities. You can also throw combat prayer on your bar (which always hits you as well as allies in front of you) for an extra 11% damage bonus. Healing notwithstanding, that's 21% additional damage output from all of your class abilities just for using one skill slot and having a restoration staff equipped.

Both of these weapon types can attack from range, and all abilities within these trees benefit from the same stats you use to boost your class abilities.

Move on to melee weapons and you find very little comparable synergy in the skill trees. 1h/shield probably has the best self-synergy, with abilities like ransack to boost your armor on use, and defensive posture to passively increase block mitigation and reduce block cost. Everything about the 1h tree is based on reducing enemy damage though, which doesnt really help you in most situations. Even tanks prefer to just use the passives from the shield line and focus on magic-based class abilities, with light armor - some even forgo the shield entirely and rely on the extra damage or defense from the staff lines instead.

The dual wield tree has twin slashes for a spammable attack - but almost all of it's damage is dot-based, which doesnt work when spamming the ability. Flurry does respectable damage, but because it's classified as a channeled dot instead of several individual attacks, only the initial hit will proc weapon enchants or class effects like siphoning attacks. Whirlwind is an aoe execute, which is great when enemies are low on health, but you have to get them there first, and the dual wield line lacks any form of reasonable AoE damage. You either have to give up your best single-target damage ability (flying blade) to get a moderately decent cone aoe (shrouded daggers), or you have to give up your only source of increased single target damage (heated blades) for an aoe that only works on the weakest of enemies and is useless against champions and bosses (ember explosion).
You have a passive to increase damage against stunned, disoriented, immobilized, or silenced enemies... but none of the dual wield abilities do that on demand. the best you've got is disorient from blinding flurry, which is only a 4% chance per hit to disorient.
The best part about the entire dual wield line, better than any of it's abilities or other passives, is twin blade and blunt with dual daggers, which will give you 10% extra weapon critical - and again, that will only apply to a select few skills outside the dual wield tree.

The two handed weapon line is the worst of the bunch. You have no spammable damage ability: only cleave (which puts 75% of it's damage in the form of a dot, which wont work when spamming it) and uppercut (with a cast time, and wrecking blow cant even benefit from it's own damage bonus). Reverse slash is inferior in every way to class execute abilities even when you're heavily stacked on weapon damage and weapon crit chance. Critical charge is probably the best ability in the entire 2handed line, and might actually be enough to make the 2h line worth investing into if it were usable at point blank range for the damage alone. Class based gap closers are more efficient for getting into melee range, and it's a DPS loss to move outside of the dead zone to charge in for damage purposes.
Momentum is probably the worst-designed ability in the entire game, in my opinion. It takes 20 seconds to get to your full 20% damage bonus (whereas with power extraction I can get up to 99% damage bonus instantly, while dealing damage to everything around me). That 20% damage bonus only applies to your weapon attacks, not to any class abilities. The morphs are what really make momentum terrible: you either have to wait a full 20 seconds to get a weak heal once the buff ends (and really, who can plan to need a heal 20 seconds from now in a game where death happens in less than half that time?), or you have to forgo 10% of your damage bonus because you're spamming the ability as a root-break.
The 2handed passives dont seem to have much focus either - you can get splash damage (weak splash damage at that, and only on basic attacks), but that splash damage only applies to a single target. Useless when almost all aoe situations in the game involve half a dozen enemies or more. You can invest in arcane fighter to boost status effects, but you gain less benefit from those effects than someone using a destruction staff (who has spammable abilities that can apply them at 40% or greater proc chance). Lastly you get stamina regeneration when killing a target, but with all of the above issues are you actually going to benefit that much? Chances are you arent killing anything, and without any spammable damage skills you wont be using enough stamina for it to matter.




Everything about this game makes me think that the developers added melee and stamina as an afterthought. All of the innovation and imagination and ideas were used up on the magicka side of things, and by the time they got around to doing melee and stamina they just said "ah, frak it, we're done".

Can you get by using medium/heavy armor and melee weapons? Yes. You may struggle at times, but you can manage, especially now that they've nerfed veteran content.

Is magicka statistically advantaged? Definitely. Any minmaxer can point to the numbers, it's right there in the open for everyone to see. The only reason you have people who -dont- use a staff and dress is because they're either stubborn, ignorant, or dont care how effective their character is.