Tanks are unneeded end game.

dietlime · August 2014

I buff my spell resist almost as high as my armor? I can tank magic damage, too?

How are you guys tanking?

Anastasia · August 2014

Fleymark wrote: »

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

I have no problem if someone wants to tank in Light armor, or Medium Armor

Saying you shouldn't be able to do it because you believe this game should be like all the rest is silly.

Well you cant dps or heal in heavy so why should you be able tank in light dont defend inept bad game design. Devs wont give you in game massages .

Pretty much this.

I'm all for the "this is elder scrolls so all armor types should be able to build for all roles" spirit, but it's not working that way. What's pretty much happening is everybody is able to do everything pre50 if they want, then in vet content it gradually deteriorates to a specific extreme situation where select builds can do everything and everything else can't do anything.

No bueno.

They need to allow the archetypical builds to stake out territory in roles and require role interdependence before getting fancy schmancy with things like every armor type filling every role.

You gotta crawl before you can walk and walk before you can run.

**** (*) I'm all for the "this is elder scrolls so all armor types should be able to build for all roles" spirit,

>>>>>but it's not working that way.<<<<<

What's pretty much happening is everybody is able to do everything pre50 if they want, then in vet content it gradually deteriorates to a specific extreme situation where select builds can do everything and everything else can't do anything.

This.

It just isn't. I was open to seeing 'how' it could work, since I have experienced something similar in one other MMO. This ain't that. And this ain't what it was advertised to be, nor is it on a dedicated path to getting there either -- too reactive. Don't nerf anything else. In fact, some of the changes made since live launch actually muddy up what were the original creative designs for this MMO.

Flexibility is good - but ZOS: (1) work on COMPLETING your vision first, (2)THEN bend, and (3) add the excitement and FRILLS. Gawd, I wanna say 'Get Back To Basics' - but the game is only four months old.

Be proud of yer baby.

Fleymark · August 2014

Exarch wrote: »

Just to play devil's advocate, is there a reason that it's inherently desirable to have a tank role, the traditional "player vs. party" holder of all aggro, be necessary? Is it just a different mechanism to keep all the fights from being the same?

It could be argued that the ESO designers looked at the relative unpopularity of 'main tank', and "player vs. unit frames" main healer, in other games (see the why aren't there enough tanks and healers thread on the forums of damn near any other MMO) and deliberately tried to make a game where players could play that way if they wanted, but no one needed to in order to put a group together.

I wasn't aware there was a "relative unpopularity" of tanks. There are entire segments of players who only play them. Just like healers, robed casters, and rogues. But I see your point.

The problem is, as much as they may want to, it's really impossible to be all things to all players. In trying to do so, from a balance and roles perspective they aren't doing anything particularly well and some things havent been done well at all. Tanking arguably being one of them.

It's like they are dedicated to two absolutes: Having next to zero player economy and the worst inventory system ever seen in an MMO. But everything else is fair game to be completely watered down.

Exarch · August 2014

Fleymark wrote: »

I wasn't aware there was a "relative unpopularity" of tanks.

us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/6413023416
forums.riftgame.com/game-discussions/classes-telara/365247-another-mmo-where-there-complete-lack-tanks.html
swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=651456
forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/154092-Lack-of-tanks-in-the-game

I enjoy tanking, I was a feral druid from day one, and I've tanked in every game since then (not at the raid level), but you name an MMO, and if it has tanks I guarantee you there are threads on its forums about the lack of tanks, and people in game spamming for groups that "just need a tank and gtg!"

SirJesto · August 2014

Exarch wrote: »

Fleymark wrote: »

I wasn't aware there was a "relative unpopularity" of tanks.

us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/6413023416
forums.riftgame.com/game-discussions/classes-telara/365247-another-mmo-where-there-complete-lack-tanks.html
swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=651456
forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/154092-Lack-of-tanks-in-the-game

I enjoy tanking, I was a feral druid from day one, and I've tanked in every game since then (not at the raid level), but you name an MMO, and if it has tanks I guarantee you there are threads on its forums about the lack of tanks, and people in game spamming for groups that "just need a tank and gtg!"

The reason for this is most people are too concerned about their DPS and doing MOAR damage look how great I am! than even think about being a tank, which is a shame.

Azraeel · August 2014

This is the beauty of tanking in light armor, you can switch to dps role anytime you like

niocwy · August 2014

Assuming we're talking about PvE.

Azraeel wrote: »

This is the beauty of tanking in light armor, you can switch to dps role anytime you like

Exactly.

A light armoured character can be a good damage dealer AND a decent tank, both at the same time. An heavy armored character will be a good tank, but a lousy damage dealer.

Actually, you only need 3 things to be a 'tank' :
- know how and when to block
- have a sufficient pool of health
- occasionally, a taunt

Heavy armor and/or Sword and Shield make this easier, but with a great detriment to damage.

My opinion is that light armor should not be able to tank, but when you see skills such as bound armor or bone shield, you kinda understand that this is not the opinion of the devs.

So the status quo is that heavy armor tanks make things a tiny insignificant bit easier survival-wise, while light armored tanks make things a lot better DPS-wise.

Does this need a change ? yeah,maybe.
Is the answer is yes, what need to change ? I don't *** know, also I don't make this game.
And to complicate things more, how to balance this between PvP and PvE ?

amm7sb14_ESO · August 2014

Why does someone in heavy armor have to be a lousy damage dealer?

I wear heavy armor, I feel like I deal pretty good damage.

killedbyping · August 2014

Stalwart385 wrote: »

I hit VR12 and made my endgame tanking armor set. I found a good coordinated guild so that I could run trials.

We'll now I can't run trials...

Right now having more than one tank in a trial is a hindrance. I went through the game getting request to help tank dungeons every night. Now I can't get into a trial because there are two or three tanks out of 14 people trying to run a trial. I have to sit by and hope to get a slot eventually sometime through the night. At the same time to make it in I have to tell other friends I can't help them run dungeons because I'm sitting in que.

How can I go from a valuable piece to un-needed. Why is only 1 tank needed out of 12 people? That ratio makes no sense.

Whats wrong with that ? Even in Huge WoW raids there are always just 1 tank.
Sometimes you need off-tank, but just 1 was enought.

Azraeel · August 2014

niocwy wrote: »

Assuming we're talking about PvE.

Azraeel wrote: »

This is the beauty of tanking in light armor, you can switch to dps role anytime you like

Exactly.

A light armoured character can be a good damage dealer AND a decent tank, both at the same time. An heavy armored character will be a good tank, but a lousy damage dealer.

Actually, you only need 3 things to be a 'tank' :
- know how and when to block
- have a sufficient pool of health
- occasionally, a taunt

Heavy armor and/or Sword and Shield make this easier, but with a great detriment to damage.

My opinion is that light armor should not be able to tank, but when you see skills such as bound armor or bone shield, you kinda understand that this is not the opinion of the devs.

So the status quo is that heavy armor tanks make things a tiny insignificant bit easier survival-wise, while light armored tanks make things a lot better DPS-wise.

Does this need a change ? yeah,maybe.
Is the answer is yes, what need to change ? I don't *** know, also I don't make this game.
And to complicate things more, how to balance this between PvP and PvE ?

Actually, you do need a little more than the 3 things you mentioned. If you are planning to tank in light armor, One handed and a shield is a must for many reasons. More mitigation, less block cost, and overall better survivability. Otherwise you would run out of stamina fast enough, and end up being one shotted by a heavy attack. Absorb magicka comes in handy here as well. Another major thing that you might need to have is buffing your armor, lots of skills that could soft cap your armor. Taunt MUST be on your bar, simply because you need to aggro all the heavy hitters including bosses, otherwise you would fail as a tank.

Im talking about being efficient in tanking like a heavy armor wearer. Now, this is where you come in handy. Your off hand weapon, could be easily made destruction staff or restoration staff to switch to DPS anytime you wish for.

HeroOfEvbof · August 2014

I ran five heavy two light as a sword a board all the way through Coldharbor. No problems whatsoever killing things, I just had to take my time. By the time I was getting to the upper portion of my first vet zone, it became clear that
1) Individual 2-blockers or twosomes of 1-blockers that combined spells plus body armor were simply going to do damage to me faster than I was going to do to them
2) Balanced groups of three mobs require some fancy footwork and it is all too common to pull another mob or two.
3) Sword and board has no AoE of its own. You can if you know what you are doing use Power Slam to control two mobs and work on one individual but you had better have a really good timer in your head to know when they are going to come out of that disorient.
4) If you are sword and board, you are never, ever going to beat a 1-block Harvester without AoE and you are never, ever going to beat a 1-block Troll without some fire.
5) If you are blocking three mobs, they are eating up your resources (in this case stamina) and you are doing nothing to theirs.
6) The Undaunted taunt with extended range comes in real handy in Vet dungeons and it uses Magicka. Why run through poo to get to thing you need to taunt when you can make it come to you.

And so zone by zone I had to adapt. First up, my AoE is going to come from my class so Magicka is now more important than stamina. Put on more light armor. More emphasis of magicka and suddenly other class abilities come into play and thus critical and spell pen become a factor. What about those interesting Mage Guild abilities Entropy and Fire Rune? Now I am at five light two heavy.
As I reach the fifth vet province, I am staring at my stamina and realizing I am never ever using it to do squat except interrupt. Sword and board abilities are great to tank but don't add diddly once you realize your AoE class abilities are going to break Power Slam.
So I have my choice. Change my gear to run all magicka in solo content or figure out some way to use that stamina. Either choice should have an eye toward speeding up killing.
Right now, I have switched my solo spec to dual wield. I am experimenting with the concept of using just enough dual wield to make use of the stamina but not rely on it since there are key moments for cc-break or interrupt. I am not actual certain this is going to work. It may be inevitable that I whip out a staff, go all magicka on my gear and keep a small amount of stamina for cc-break and interrupt.

niocwy · August 2014

Azraeel wrote: »

niocwy wrote: »

Assuming we're talking about PvE.

Azraeel wrote: »

This is the beauty of tanking in light armor, you can switch to dps role anytime you like

Exactly.

A light armoured character can be a good damage dealer AND a decent tank, both at the same time. An heavy armored character will be a good tank, but a lousy damage dealer.

Actually, you only need 3 things to be a 'tank' :
- know how and when to block
- have a sufficient pool of health
- occasionally, a taunt

Heavy armor and/or Sword and Shield make this easier, but with a great detriment to damage.

My opinion is that light armor should not be able to tank, but when you see skills such as bound armor or bone shield, you kinda understand that this is not the opinion of the devs.

So the status quo is that heavy armor tanks make things a tiny insignificant bit easier survival-wise, while light armored tanks make things a lot better DPS-wise.

Does this need a change ? yeah,maybe.
Is the answer is yes, what need to change ? I don't *** know, also I don't make this game.
And to complicate things more, how to balance this between PvP and PvE ?

Actually, you do need a little more than the 3 things you mentioned. If you are planning to tank in light armor, One handed and a shield is a must for many reasons. More mitigation, less block cost, and overall better survivability. Otherwise you would run out of stamina fast enough, and end up being one shotted by a heavy attack. Absorb magicka comes in handy here as well. Another major thing that you might need to have is buffing your armor, lots of skills that could soft cap your armor. Taunt MUST be on your bar, simply because you need to aggro all the heavy hitters including bosses, otherwise you would fail as a tank.

Im talking about being efficient in tanking like a heavy armor wearer. Now, this is where you come in handy. Your off hand weapon, could be easily made destruction staff or restoration staff to switch to DPS anytime you wish for.

I agree that a shield does come in handy, but there's no real need for it. That said, I always play with a wonderful healer, and as a NB I have no problem for stamina (thanks to Siphoning strikes).
For armor, bone shield is more than enough, and (surprise !) it cost magicka.

You may use a shield on key encounters, where you know a particular boss is a hard hitter ( for instance, the penultimate boss in Veteran Fungal Grotto). Trash mobs ? meh, I won't even talk about it.

If you want to go deeper into S&S, it also gives your group 40% more penetration (both magical and physical) if you use Pierce Armor as a taunt, and Deep Slash reduce target damage by 15%, which is nice to have (and you'd be surprises that is works on bosses). Some could also agree that a shield gives you one more enchantment and set slot.

All in all, I agree a heavy armored character with a shield is better at tanking, but you don't NEED him. You can do all the vet dungeons with a tank in light armor and resto staff, with the added bonus of more DPS.

It just happens that some people think it should not be possible.

EDIT :
To answer the OP :

Stalwart385 wrote: »

Why is only 1 tank needed out of 12 people? That ratio makes no sense.

Trials boss mechanics makes it that way I guess.

zgrssd · August 2014

Stalwart385 wrote: »

How can I go from a valuable piece to un-needed. Why is only 1 tank needed out of 12 people? That ratio makes no sense.

You have to ask the people that only want one tank out of X people. Why do they think they can make due with 1 tank?
Why do they think they need more DPS/healers then basic math dictates?

My best guess is that trials focus on fast speed makes "too many Healer/tanks" seem unrentable.
I am not sure about that idea. While some dungeons can be doen without Tank, a tank greatly lowers the pressure on the healer wich in turn means he can contribute to DPS. Everything that makes other players life easier should have a direct positive effect on gaming effectiveness.
Also a properly palyed tank can have a bunch of usefull debuffs to armor/spell resistance/CC's, so he can boost DPS indirectly.

Zero_Tolerance · August 2014

Maverick827 wrote: »

Yeah, this really is a symptom of the "Action MMO" game style. People think they can come up with a system that's better than the holy trinity and they always fail. ESO is a lot better than GW2 in this regard, though.

They always said everyone will be able to do everything and roles won't be set in stone (we know it's not fully true, but that's the development idea anyway). Making your char good in only one thing is your own problem, there's enough skill points, and gear is dirt cheap to be able to run more than 1 role setup on same char.
Action MMO style is just another type of game - it assumes every player will be able to take care of themselves thanks to his own actions that mitigate/avoid damage, self heal etc. People who want strict trinity can find another game to play. That's all there is to it. I don't complain there's no racing in this game, if I wanted to race other ppl I'd go to play the game that offers it.

SirJesto · August 2014

HeroOfEvbof wrote: »

I ran five heavy two light as a sword a board all the way through Coldharbor. No problems whatsoever killing things, I just had to take my time. By the time I was getting to the upper portion of my first vet zone, it became clear that
1) Individual 2-blockers or twosomes of 1-blockers that combined spells plus body armor were simply going to do damage to me faster than I was going to do to them
2) Balanced groups of three mobs require some fancy footwork and it is all too common to pull another mob or two.
3) Sword and board has no AoE of its own. You can if you know what you are doing use Power Slam to control two mobs and work on one individual but you had better have a really good timer in your head to know when they are going to come out of that disorient.

I played this way all the way through Cadwell's Gold. Now I'm in Craglorn at VR11 and I'm hooped. I started levelling a Resto Staff early VR so maybe there's still hope....

Xnemesis · August 2014

I do agree that more fights should require 2 even three tanks. I for one am more intrigued by mechanics that require coordination and skill than simple dps and healing checks.

The_Sadist · August 2014

I'm inclined to disagree, tanks ARE needed endgame... Multiple tanks per fight? Not so much. The same can be said about healers, you only 'need' 3 or so for trials, any more is wasted DPS. Tanks are needed in Veteran rank dungeons and come 4 man trials tanks will be extremely valuable.

On an ending note, If you've played through the game you should have ample spell points and can level a DPS spec alongside your tank one, I don't really see the issue.

Maverick827 · August 2014

Zero_Tolerance wrote: »

Maverick827 wrote: »

Yeah, this really is a symptom of the "Action MMO" game style. People think they can come up with a system that's better than the holy trinity and they always fail. ESO is a lot better than GW2 in this regard, though.

They always said everyone will be able to do everything and roles won't be set in stone (we know it's not fully true, but that's the development idea anyway). Making your char good in only one thing is your own problem, there's enough skill points, and gear is dirt cheap to be able to run more than 1 role setup on same char.
Action MMO style is just another type of game - it assumes every player will be able to take care of themselves thanks to his own actions that mitigate/avoid damage, self heal etc. People who want strict trinity can find another game to play. That's all there is to it. I don't complain there's no racing in this game, if I wanted to race other ppl I'd go to play the game that offers it.

Yes, I realize that this game doesn't have the Trinity. That's the problem, because trinity-less MMOs are proving themselves to have shallow and unchallenging PvE.

Aeratus · August 2014

Azraeel wrote: »

This is the beauty of tanking in light armor, you can switch to dps role anytime you like

^ This.

I run a v12 light armor NB tank, and I've done all the dungeon speedruns (including vet COH). For big trash mob groups, I can attain usually 1-1.5k dps using my destro staff without ultimate, and over 2-2.5k dps in more ideal situations (with ultimate). Some of the speedruns were fairly close calls, and having the tank (me) output dps helped a lot. In COH, trash mob fights can take a while, and tank should contribute to the dps.

Spottswoode · August 2014

When it comes to this particular topic, I think the game we need to most closely examine in relation to ESO is Rift. If there is one thing that Rift does exceptionally well, it is letting every class fit every role. Every class can perform any function with a specific build and customization. While every class performs that role differently, it can still be done with somewhat equivalent utility amongst them. It's true that one specific class can outperform another in a specific area, but the capability is fairly normally distributed.
With this game, the same should be true with gear-centric builds. As the classes don't determine very much how the toon will behave over all, it should be fairly equal overall between the builds depending on how you spec. But it isn't. Skirt and staff has a major advantage in endgame, mostly owing to magicka resistance and magicka regeneration.
Stamina builds and weapon damage need serious buffs for there to be any ground gained on this. (I'll have a proposal on this posted later today. It's a little lengthy.)

seaef · August 2014

NookyZooky wrote: »

Cyberdown wrote: »

forgetting pvp?

not everyone likes impulse spam mode err.... I mean PvP

Hey! PvPers will tell you it takes skill to PvP.

Of course they're delusional, but they'll tell you anyway...

TehMagnus · August 2014

Tanks are easy to come by, good ones ain't. Proove that you can tank axes without loosing their agro and you'll be the main tank 8). That being said, nothing is stopping you from going caster. I suppose you're a DK or a NB (else you would be healing) so grab that stick, go kill zombies in coldharbour and go pew pew.

TehMagnus · August 2014

Cahuani wrote: »

As much as I too hate the OPness of the staff-bearing skirt-lovers..

In a sense of realism, magic-users SHOULD be OP. I would bet money on a wizard over a warrior any day. Why do you think in so many games the tactic is "kill the mages first"?

What this game needs is a way to make the melee dps count for more. Even if the wizard wins 9 days out of 10, when a warrior ever does close the distance before he is scorched/fried/frozen/barbecued/imploded/disintegrated, steel wins.

I totally agree with you. Moreover, in ESO, casters have less burst damage than warriors but more damage over time (which is what's needed in trials and why casters are a must have).

Technically, you can do trials nowadays with a mix of casters and warriors but since caster dps > warrior dps, people keep crying and asking for warriors to do equal amount of DPS than casters, even though that would make them 100% op compared to casters, but since people are selfish, they don't care and will put LOL's in your post and mine to show they disagree. Thankfully, I believe ZOS knows this, else they would have buffed stamina sets even more a long time ago.

Anastasia · August 2014

magnusnet wrote: »

Cahuani wrote: »

As much as I too hate the OPness of the staff-bearing skirt-lovers..

In a sense of realism, magic-users SHOULD be OP. I would bet money on a wizard over a warrior any day. Why do you think in so many games the tactic is "kill the mages first"?

What this game needs is a way to make the melee dps count for more. Even if the wizard wins 9 days out of 10, when a warrior ever does close the distance before he is scorched/fried/frozen/barbecued/imploded/disintegrated, steel wins.

I totally agree with you. Moreover, in ESO, casters have less burst damage than warriors but more damage over time (which is what's needed in trials and why casters are a must have).

Technically, you can do trials nowadays with a mix of casters and warriors but since caster dps > warrior dps, people keep crying and asking for warriors to do equal amount of DPS than casters, even though that would make them 100% op compared to casters, (???) but since people are selfish, they don't care and will put LOL's in your post and mine to show they disagree. Thankfully, I believe ZOS knows this, else they would have buffed stamina sets even more a long time ago.

*CURIOUS WHY balancing/raising stats/DPS would then make melee/warriors o-p to casters SINCE many posts in this thread keep hammering how TANKISH builds are needed only a smidge to none anyhow.

(*) IF we (all base classes) are supposed to be performing in that fantastical 'be everything you can be that you wanna be' mold...then strengthening melee types, giving them much higher STAM REGEN, and upping their DPS would be exactly what should be done to achieve that so they are just as 'needed' as the lucky magika flood builds. (*)

whvice · August 2014

or they could just make those casters less tanky

less maths, makes more sense, tanks get to tank again and not dps, dps gets to dps and not tank, best of both worlds

Wifeaggro13 · August 2014

magnusnet wrote: »

Cahuani wrote: »

As much as I too hate the OPness of the staff-bearing skirt-lovers..

In a sense of realism, magic-users SHOULD be OP. I would bet money on a wizard over a warrior any day. Why do you think in so many games the tactic is "kill the mages first"?

What this game needs is a way to make the melee dps count for more. Even if the wizard wins 9 days out of 10, when a warrior ever does close the distance before he is scorched/fried/frozen/barbecued/imploded/disintegrated, steel wins.

I totally agree with you. Moreover, in ESO, casters have less burst damage than warriors but more damage over time (which is what's needed in trials and why casters are a must have).

Technically, you can do trials nowadays with a mix of casters and warriors but since caster dps > warrior dps, people keep crying and asking for warriors to do equal amount of DPS than casters, even though that would make them 100% op compared to casters, but since people are selfish, they don't care and will put LOL's in your post and mine to show they disagree. Thankfully, I believe ZOS knows this, else they would have buffed stamina sets even more a long time ago.

Do you use DPS meters. Because this is clearly not the case .
A Dk in heavy armor or any class for that matter will never burst as hard as a caster in light. I have both a Dk in heavy and hundings medium for a melee dps build

I also have a Sorc in 5 warlock 5 martial knowledge. My sorc will burst for 4 and 5 k lol for short period and level off around 700 to 1k (For reference i do not DPs that much i usally tank so my numbers and build are no where near what they could be)

My Dk can burst for maybe 1k in full hundings and lvl off at about 400 DPs in sustained fights. NB are a bit better but the will never burst as hard as a Nb in a dress and stick. the situation you describe is how things should work, its how all MMO's design a Melee DPS.

The flaw in your logic is Casters tank better then Warrior builds Light armor tanks as well or better then heavy . I am baffled about how little the community is aware of the tanking issues , and the lack there of. This game has several issues in group mechanics and the tanking role is a huge broken spot in these mechanics

Spottswoode · August 2014

whvice wrote: »

or they could just make those casters less tanky

less maths, makes more sense, tanks get to tank again and not dps, dps gets to dps and not tank, best of both worlds

Without substantial damage reduction from spells, the tanks would still be at a disadvantage. Even nerfing all of the light armor tanking buffs wouldn't make up the difference.

TehMagnus · August 2014

Anastasia wrote: »

magnusnet wrote: »

Cahuani wrote: »

As much as I too hate the OPness of the staff-bearing skirt-lovers..

In a sense of realism, magic-users SHOULD be OP. I would bet money on a wizard over a warrior any day. Why do you think in so many games the tactic is "kill the mages first"?

What this game needs is a way to make the melee dps count for more. Even if the wizard wins 9 days out of 10, when a warrior ever does close the distance before he is scorched/fried/frozen/barbecued/imploded/disintegrated, steel wins.

I totally agree with you. Moreover, in ESO, casters have less burst damage than warriors but more damage over time (which is what's needed in trials and why casters are a must have).

Technically, you can do trials nowadays with a mix of casters and warriors but since caster dps > warrior dps, people keep crying and asking for warriors to do equal amount of DPS than casters, even though that would make them 100% op compared to casters, (???) but since people are selfish, they don't care and will put LOL's in your post and mine to show they disagree. Thankfully, I believe ZOS knows this, else they would have buffed stamina sets even more a long time ago.

*CURIOUS WHY balancing/raising stats/DPS would then make melee/warriors o-p to casters SINCE many posts in this thread keep hammering how TANKISH builds are needed only a smidge to none anyhow.

(*) IF we (all base classes) are supposed to be performing in that fantastical 'be everything you can be that you wanna be' mold...then strengthening melee types, giving them much higher STAM REGEN, and upping their DPS would be exactly what should be done to achieve that so they are just as 'needed' as the lucky magika flood builds. (*)

#1: Was clearly not answering to OP and not talking about tanks. It is normal that you only need one tank for instances that only have one boss, especially if such tank can, alone, tank everything. Moreover, some tactics for Hard Mode require two tanks so that's 1 more tank

.

#2: "Be everything you can be/wanna be": I dare you to show me any official announcement from ZOS where they state that no matter how you play or what you decide to do, you'll always be able to do it with the same level of effectiveness. Nobody is stopping you from playing a heavy armor tank sorcerer, yet you will NEVER be as effective as the other classes, you'll still be able to tank though

being everything you wanna be in the process. Nobody is stopping you from playing a caster in heavy armor, yet you will never be as effective damage-wise as a caster in light armor. Play as you want doesn't imply that no matter how you play you will succeed or be as good as the guys that play as they should. Thinking the oposite is just being unrealistic.

#3: I've already stated that giving stamina classes as much sustain as casters can have would only balance them in trials but not in other instances of the game such as PVP. If stamina users had as much sustain as mage users, not only would they be extremely OP when they get close to you (which is easy since there are unblockable, unavoidable gap closer skills)but they would also enjoy the same sustain casters do, making them more op than casters AKA unbalanced. I use a caster build in trials that I will never EVER bring into PVP since I wouldn't last 1 second in close combat, especially vs a stamina build.

So to resume: Be everything that you wanna be doesn't, has never and will never imply that you can be/play everything and be as good with everything.

As I stated, there is a balance at the moment. Stamina users do burst damage, magicka users to damage over time. The ONLY issue there is is that trials have DPS runs that automatically excludes Stamina users.

As many, including myself have suggested, an easy way to balance trials without breaking game balance would be to allow bleeding effects and poison effects to affect trial bosses so that stamina users can have a rotation just like DK casters do where they apply dots that do damage over time.

P.S.: Your posts are extremely annoying to read (and even more to comment since we see the BBcode) with all the stars, the CAPS and whole sections of bolded parts.

Surliman · August 2014

I'm not at end-game yet, but it is obvious that in their attempt to make a 'classless' game it has a lot of work still needed. The pleasure of past TES games was the ability to be any type of character you wanted. The encounters reflected that. Regardless if you wore heavy armor and swung a sword or cast fireballs, or light armor and a bow, each fight was basically a dps race. The game was built around the concept of skills, not equipment.

But this is not a solo game, the concept of skill based game-play needed to evolve to accommodate a changed dynamic. Solo content should still be what made TES great, and there should be plenty of it available to subscribers. But group content is a new concept in the TES world which requires new mechanisms to be put into play. The mechanism that has appeared as the most effective is the trinity of tank, heal and damage dealer.

Instead of having 'classes', maybe they should have introduced a second skill line. Group skills. To keep it balanced, a skill point when gained is provided for each line. A solo line as well as the group line. You can't use the group point in the solo line, or the solo point in the group line.

The solo line would allow for a tank with high dps and the ability to heal him/herself. The group line would break down into the traditional areas of tanking, dps and healer. Skill 'trees' could be designed in such a way that what choices you make early in the game determines what will become available to you later. Every 'class' would have the same set of early choices, as players level, those choices narrow down tighter and tighter into specific roles.

Now, I don't always want to tank, or dps, or heal. Or the group may have tanks, but need a healer. We'll need the flexibility to develop not one, but maybe two, or even all three(?) lines. We should have two skill lines of equal value to bring to our group. Meaning that as a tank, I got the skill lines to be an awesome tank. But as we have no healer, I should be able to switch out gear and be a just as awesome healer.

What I have taken from past MMOs is A) Lack of variety from an equipment prospective and

A lack of flexibility.

The lack of variety means every healer is dressed the same and uses the same skills. Tank uses the same armor as every other tank, uses the same skills. So boring. We need variety. We need a skill line to make a sword and shield tank, or if we prefer a robe wearing mage with awesome tank spells to taunt, defend, deflect, etc. We need a leather clad rogue who can do a dance of death around the bad guy, attracting his attention, avoiding his attacks, laughing in the face of danger to infuriate and keep the mobs attention.

Is it all the same underneath? Yes. Do players care? No, because we are still able to be unique. To be our own character. Just because the tanking in any form all has the same result isn't what bothers many...it's the fact we have to all do it the same, exact way. Without any variation.

Anyway...those are my thoughts on the subject of tanking and multiplayer mechanics in general.

Wifeaggro13 · August 2014

magnusnet wrote: »

Anastasia wrote: »

magnusnet wrote: »

Cahuani wrote: »

As much as I too hate the OPness of the staff-bearing skirt-lovers..

In a sense of realism, magic-users SHOULD be OP. I would bet money on a wizard over a warrior any day. Why do you think in so many games the tactic is "kill the mages first"?

What this game needs is a way to make the melee dps count for more. Even if the wizard wins 9 days out of 10, when a warrior ever does close the distance before he is scorched/fried/frozen/barbecued/imploded/disintegrated, steel wins.

I totally agree with you. Moreover, in ESO, casters have less burst damage than warriors but more damage over time (which is what's needed in trials and why casters are a must have).

Technically, you can do trials nowadays with a mix of casters and warriors but since caster dps > warrior dps, people keep crying and asking for warriors to do equal amount of DPS than casters, even though that would make them 100% op compared to casters, (???) but since people are selfish, they don't care and will put LOL's in your post and mine to show they disagree. Thankfully, I believe ZOS knows this, else they would have buffed stamina sets even more a long time ago.

*CURIOUS WHY balancing/raising stats/DPS would then make melee/warriors o-p to casters SINCE many posts in this thread keep hammering how TANKISH builds are needed only a smidge to none anyhow.

(*) IF we (all base classes) are supposed to be performing in that fantastical 'be everything you can be that you wanna be' mold...then strengthening melee types, giving them much higher STAM REGEN, and upping their DPS would be exactly what should be done to achieve that so they are just as 'needed' as the lucky magika flood builds. (*)

#2: "Be everything you can be/wanna be": I dare you to show me any official announcement from ZOS where they state that no matter how you play or what you decide to do, you'll always be able to do it with the same level of effectiveness. Nobody is stopping you from playing a heavy armor tank sorcerer, yet you will NEVER be as effective as the other classes, you'll still be able to tank though being everything you wanna be in the process. Nobody is stopping you from playing a caster in heavy armor, yet you will never be as effective damage-wise as a caster in light armor. Play as you want doesn't imply that no matter how you play you will succeed or be as good as the guys that play as they should. Thinking the oposite is just being unrealistic.

I have to stop you right here. I have both a DK in Heavy Armor V12 Yokeda 4 piece with hist bark and Yokeda weapon and shield,3 piece unassailable jewelry. Dk is supposed to be this high survivability high utility type class. Making it an obvious choice for a tank. He has 2800 armor when runnign spiked armor with that gear and 3400 hit points and is 8 over charged in spell resistance.

I also have a V12 sorc I have tanked with both extensively . In VR content i have all working dungeon achievments and have used both in trials.The sorc when tanking can either use a 5 piece martial knowledge Light with 5 piece warlock tanking running Aegis and storm armor. in that set up the sorc will have about 2400 armor and the spell resist will be through the roof like 1200 over soft cap. with about 3k hitpoints.
i also have a alessia and histbark set of heavy for the sorc. in that set up there the sorc has over 3k armor and 800 over soft cap spell resist.

By far the sorc destroys the Dk in performance for tanking and in my opinion it is the bet tank in game by far. Maybe a well played templar will do better as it will allow the healer to DPS more. The sorc handles trash far better then the DK while throing down 2k AOE DPS in heavy armor if i so chose to wear the worthless garbage.The sorc has roots and a massive CC that will recharge faster then any ultimate in game, it stops everything in trash pulls . As far as ST damage its not even close the sorc destroys the Dk in damage while tanking. Anyone who doubts i will bring to COH , shada or any VR dungeon of your choice and prove to you the simple fact. the DK GDB is useful for soling Talons is a buggy piece of crap that costs far to much to use.Reflective scales i can do the same thing with a SNS ability. the Dk brings nothing but some mediocre utility after all the nerfs . Banner is useful yes but only for a banner spammer spec it will produce some nice DPS.

This game does not function like you think it does. People dont use sorc as a tank because people who rolled a sorc didnt do it to tank. And if they tank with it and struggle i have no problem taking you along on some runs and showing you the ropes.