Tanks are unneeded end game.

Stalwart385

I hit VR12 and made my endgame tanking armor set. I found a good coordinated guild so that I could run trials.

We'll now I can't run trials...

Right now having more than one tank in a trial is a hindrance. I went through the game getting request to help tank dungeons every night. Now I can't get into a trial because there are two or three tanks out of 14 people trying to run a trial. I have to sit by and hope to get a slot eventually sometime through the night. At the same time to make it in I have to tell other friends I can't help them run dungeons because I'm sitting in que.

How can I go from a valuable piece to un-needed. Why is only 1 tank needed out of 12 people? That ratio makes no sense.

jrgray93

Time to put on a dress and grab your stick.

That... that could have sounded better.

Stalwart385

Yeah I hear you, but going from tanking skills and gear to DPS is a major investment. I spent the game developing and refining my tank just to get put on the back burner when I hit VR12. Really a shame.

Evandus

It shouldn't be too difficult to reallocate some skill points and run out to Coldharbour for example to level up those new skill choices.

Seems the trials crowd is looking for focused builds, and some hybrids. You can definitely make a hybrid.

jrgray93

Oh, don't worry, I fully agree that this is a bad situation. My reply is more or less a jab at the fact that the answer to everything in this game is to put on light armor and a staff. Even tanking is optimal with light armor!

Also, looks like some jerk gave you a "LOL" vote. That's what you get for making a good point! Shame!

Cyberdown

forgetting pvp?

kieso

jrgray93 wrote: »

Time to put on a dress and grab your stick.

That... that could have sounded better.

No, pretty sure that comment could not have been made any better.

Evandus

As an addendum, my main is a tank. Only VR2 though. But I saw the writing on the wall some time ago. Zenimax is designing content with AOE ridden battlefields and nearly stationary bossess. The focus is on dps instead of control. Therefore groups that are competing can get away with one tank, one healing type.

Encounters that I've looked at so far are merely dps races. There is no danger involved in letting the boss mob run amuck (if they move at all). End result, we only need one tank. No backup. And can't take more than one as it lowers group dps out of the range of being able to compete.

Personally I think it's dumb luck that most leads see the need for even one tank.

jrgray93

Cyberdown wrote: »

forgetting pvp?

What of it? They aren't really that effective in PVP, save for distractions. The best "tanks" in PVP aren't even tanks. They're just block / animation cancel exploiters who pop Immovable.

Also, if you're suggesting PVP while he waits for groups, not everyone loves PVP as much as some of us do.

Cody

Cyberdown wrote: »

forgetting pvp?

not everyone likes impulse spam mode err.... I mean PvP

DenverRalphy

It's not just endgame. It's game wide. The way ESO mechanics are setup, there are only two needed roles. DPS and Healer. And even then Healing is 2nd to DPS since everyone has access to some healing.

Physical damage is a very significant minority in the game, so armor rating is an afterthought. Everybody has some significant access to spell resistance or reflect.

So that leaves the game in a state where all you need to focus on is dealing more damage faster than the opponent, with the occasional heal.

This is what you get when a game's mechanics are built around making classes/roles less significant. As the old saying goes... Be careful what you ask for.

Wifeaggro13

Stalwart385 wrote: »

I hit VR12 and made my endgame tanking armor set. I found a good coordinated guild so that I could run trials.

We'll now I can't run trials...

Right now having more than one tank in a trial is a hindrance. I went through the game getting request to help tank dungeons every night. Now I can't get into a trial because there are two or three tanks out of 14 people trying to run a trial. I have to sit by and hope to get a slot eventually sometime through the night. At the same time to make it in I have to tell other friends I can't help them run dungeons because I'm sitting in que.

How can I go from a valuable piece to un-needed. Why is only 1 tank needed out of 12 people? That ratio makes no sense.

I said said months ago. You dont even need a tank for vr dungeons just a taunt armor buff . Its because they designed a purely dps game. No true agro management, no support roles, medicore cc.

Pmarsico9

This has to be viewed as a major issue at some point. And the remedy is to do the following:

A) Increase heavy armor mitigation cap. This could use another 15-20% flat bonus.

Time to put threat modifiers onto to tanks so that snap-AoE grabs on entire pulls is possible.

C) Provide no room for error on certain bosses where anybody but a heavy-geared sword and board tank will get destroyed.

--Or--

Realize that Trials were poorly executed and avoid making so much content based around DPS races.

Aeratus

Stalwart385 wrote: »

It's not just endgame. It's game wide. The way ESO mechanics are setup, there are only two needed roles. DPS and Healer. And even then Healing is 2nd to DPS since everyone has access to some healing.

For level 1-50 dungeons, you definitely don't need a tank if the party knows what they're doing. Tank is basically a gimped dps.

For v1+, tanking is useful as a designated blocker. However, genuine tanking is only needed in a few specific situations, and it is more ideal for the tank to be in light armor and bring in extra dps.

Wifeaggro13

Pmarsico9 wrote: »

This has to be viewed as a major issue at some point. And the remedy is to do the following:

A) Increase heavy armor mitigation cap. This could use another 15-20% flat bonus.

Time to put threat modifiers onto to tanks so that snap-AoE grabs on entire pulls is possible.

C) Provide no room for error on certain bosses where anybody but a heavy-geared sword and board tank will get destroyed.

--Or--

Realize that Trials were poorly executed and avoid making so much content based around DPS races.

They will never do this. The team is damn delusional in their design they think they created a cure for cancer. Ive not even seen them remotely acknowledge this as a flaw. There is a section of the community that defends this design. But when questioned in the forums on their view low and behold they are all dps players lol and many are not even in vr nor have they tried a so called tank build.

Cyberdown

well at least since people here don't count pvp as content, or discount their use in pvp...and want to discount their use in pve as tanks.....which i find an incredibly useful addition to any pve group...at least you have an option to not be a tank....

on one hand everyone wants to make their own role and do their own thing without the game forcing you to be a dedicated tank or healer...on the other hand when people want to be a dedicated tank or healer they demand the game require one...damned if you do damned if you don't.

cazlonb16_ESO

This is a general problem of the new "action combat" type MMOs. You have to move out of the big telegraphed attacks no matter what role you are and for the rest you don't need a designated tank.

ESO excarbates the issue by making armour class even less relevant than other games and physical damage a rarity.

Basically it's the same story as in GW2: Stacking as much dps as you can get away with is the only way to go. If you attempt anything else, you're just making things much harder on yourself.

Evandus

I suppose the defining factor really is that the OP is speaking of trials. He's ass out on being able to participate on a character he's rolled and played to V12. In his guild even, which is significant.

The only distinction being made here between PvP and Trials is that you can take nearly anything into PvP. Competitive trial groups are rather particular. And many other groups mimic their group composition format. Ergo, a player interested in running trials on a tank is prettymuch out of luck. Or, if part of a guild, in a line with every other sucker who thought building an end game tank was a great idea.

That's what I got out of it. And why I suggested that he swap to a hybrid build as a foundation.

Maverick827

cazlonb16_ESO wrote: »

This is a general problem of the new "action combat" type MMOs. You have to move out of the big telegraphed attacks no matter what role you are and for the rest you don't need a designated tank.

ESO excarbates the issue by making armour class even less relevant than other games and physical damage a rarity.

Basically it's the same story as in GW2: Stacking as much dps as you can get away with is the only way to go. If you attempt anything else, you're just making things much harder on yourself.

Yeah, this really is a symptom of the "Action MMO" game style. People think they can come up with a system that's better than the holy trinity and they always fail. ESO is a lot better than GW2 in this regard, though.

Vuron

They could create encounters with multiple boss mobs and adds running all over, creating the need for multiple tanks. All is good with the world until you realize that there aren't any AoE taunts in the game.

I've never liked playing tanks, but will admit that you guys need some love. There are some very good tanks out there, but there just isn't a huge demand for them.

DenverRalphy

Evandus wrote: »

I suppose the defining factor really is that the OP is speaking of trials. He's ass out on being able to participate on a character he's rolled and played to V12. In his guild even, which is significant.

The only distinction being made here between PvP and Trials is that you can take nearly anything into PvP. Competitive trial groups are rather particular. And many other groups mimic their group composition format. Ergo, a player interested in running trials on a tank is prettymuch out of luck. Or, if part of a guild, in a line with every other sucker who thought building an end game tank was a great idea.

That's what I got out of it. And why I suggested that he swap to a hybrid build as a foundation.

It's not just trials though. Even PvE/PvP content places very little reliance on armor or tanking. Nothing in the game really needs a player to focus on it. None of it.

A full light armor toon, regardless of class, dominates and facerolls.

IMHO, classes and armor effectiveness need to be introduced.

Kl3mzyy

Ratio 1/12 NM and 2/12 HM is ok if you ask me in standart raid composition you have 2/25.

All i can say to you is always have a dps setup ready or find a guild which needs a tank and be damn good at tanking. Tanks are always wanted, but only good ones.

Evandus

DenverRalphy wrote: »

Evandus wrote: »

I suppose the defining factor really is that the OP is speaking of trials. He's ass out on being able to participate on a character he's rolled and played to V12. In his guild even, which is significant.

The only distinction being made here between PvP and Trials is that you can take nearly anything into PvP. Competitive trial groups are rather particular. And many other groups mimic their group composition format. Ergo, a player interested in running trials on a tank is prettymuch out of luck. Or, if part of a guild, in a line with every other sucker who thought building an end game tank was a great idea.

That's what I got out of it. And why I suggested that he swap to a hybrid build as a foundation.

It's not just trials though. Even PvE/PvP content places very little reliance on armor or tanking. Nothing in the game really needs a player to focus on it. None of it.

A full light armor toon, regardless of class, dominates and facerolls.

IMHO, classes and armor effectiveness need to be introduced.

Overall, I agree. To be honest I have been wondering why there hasn't been any further development done for heavy armor users, specifically the tanking role. Doesn't Mr. Sage run a heavy armor 1hand and shield build? Perhaps I'm not recalling that correctly though...

I'm still chuckling in reference to my tank. I've swapped him over to a hybrid build found over at the foundry with some tweaks to enable tanking when needed: http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/oblivion-battlemage-pvp-pve-tankdps-op/

So far, I've respecced and chosen new skills. Been levelling them up in Coldharbour with the zombies there. There is a lot of humor to be found in this. I run naked (your armor gets wrecked in no time farming mobs for xp) and have been levelling up the skills I'm missing.

I'm betting now on the 'join them' portion of 'if you can't beat them...'

eliisra

Agreed, this game definitely needs content that requires more tanking/off-tanking. But also more healing, support and cc. So tired of everything being focused around timed dps-races.

In PvP, everyone runs light armour/staff Impulse-blobs. In trials everyone runs light armor/staff Impulse-blobs. In VR dungeons you run mini Impulse-blob with staff/light armour. It's depressing.

traigusb14_ESO2

Evandus wrote: »

Overall, I agree. To be honest I have been wondering why there hasn't been any further development done for heavy armor users, specifically the tanking role. Doesn't Mr. Sage run a heavy armor 1hand and shield build? Perhaps I'm not recalling that correctly though...

I'm still chuckling in reference to my tank. I've swapped him over to a hybrid build found over at the foundry with some tweaks to enable tanking when needed: http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/oblivion-battlemage-pvp-pve-tankdps-op/

So far, I've respecced and chosen new skills. Been levelling them up in Coldharbour with the zombies there. There is a lot of humor to be found in this. I run naked (your armor gets wrecked in no time farming mobs for xp) and have been levelling up the skills I'm missing.

I'm betting now on the 'join them' portion of 'if you can't beat them...'

ESO seems to be balanced on what "can be done" not 'what players will do"

So you CAN tank, and content is tankable, but you don't NEED one.

You CAN play without a stick and dress, but people get [snip] at you.

you CAN use STA only builds, but people will get [snip] at you.

The devs think things work because you CAN play it that way, even if nobody will, or won't let anyone else do so.

MMO players are kinda jerks and if something does just 1 more point of damage, everyone will insist everyone else do whatever it is for that 1 more point(forget about the massive imbalances in ESO right now).

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Cursing & Profanity]

Rosveen

traigusb14_ESO2 wrote: »

Evandus wrote: »

Overall, I agree. To be honest I have been wondering why there hasn't been any further development done for heavy armor users, specifically the tanking role. Doesn't Mr. Sage run a heavy armor 1hand and shield build? Perhaps I'm not recalling that correctly though...

I'm still chuckling in reference to my tank. I've swapped him over to a hybrid build found over at the foundry with some tweaks to enable tanking when needed: http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/oblivion-battlemage-pvp-pve-tankdps-op/

So far, I've respecced and chosen new skills. Been levelling them up in Coldharbour with the zombies there. There is a lot of humor to be found in this. I run naked (your armor gets wrecked in no time farming mobs for xp) and have been levelling up the skills I'm missing.

I'm betting now on the 'join them' portion of 'if you can't beat them...'

ESO seems to be balanced on what "can be done" not 'what players will do"

So you CAN tank, and content is tankable, but you don't NEED one.

You CAN play without a stick and dress, but people get [snip] at you.

you CAN use STA only builds, but people will get [snip] at you.

The devs think things work because you CAN play it that way, even if nobody will, or won't let anyone else do so.

MMO players are kinda jerks and if something does just 1 more point of damage, everyone will insist everyone else do whatever it is for that 1 more point(forget about the massive imbalances in ESO right now).

You can't really do trials with a group full of stamina builds. It isn't the players' fault for being elitists or jerks, it's just the way the content is designed.

[Moderator Note: Edited quote to match moderated version]

chris_clemencyb14_ESO

It's always disappointing to read this. I've been a tank in every game Ive ever played. Im currently 15 and 20 (because I wanted to try a different race to see what difference the race skills made). I've tanked all 3 of the early level dungeons and it seems like I do have a place when fighting the boss mobs...never have much trouble losing aggro at all. if this doesnt change throughout the game, then I'd say everyone is being a bit over the top on there not being any reason to be a tank. Also, I have a healer and I had to work...I couldn't just keep dps'ing and hope everyone stayed alive...I had to heal....maybe I was in bad groups, but it seemed like the Trinity was in effect.

The trials on the other hand, sound like just a good theory, but bad idea...if anyone can chime in on later levels I'd appreciate it. I do like the game, but if Im no use as a tank, I have no use for the game.

Wifeaggro13

chris_clemencyb14_ESO wrote: »

It's always disappointing to read this. I've been a tank in every game Ive ever played. Im currently 15 and 20 (because I wanted to try a different race to see what difference the race skills made). I've tanked all 3 of the early level dungeons and it seems like I do have a place when fighting the boss mobs...never have much trouble losing aggro at all. if this doesnt change throughout the game, then I'd say everyone is being a bit over the top on there not being any reason to be a tank. Also, I have a healer and I had to work...I couldn't just keep dps'ing and hope everyone stayed alive...I had to heal....maybe I was in bad groups, but it seemed like the Trinity was in effect.

The trials on the other hand, sound like just a good theory, but bad idea...if anyone can chime in on later levels I'd appreciate it. I do like the game, but if Im no use as a tank, I have no use for the game.

in all honesty Tanks in Vr dungeons just don't bring enough to the table i have a VR 12 dk in Trial gear heavy. and a VR 12 sorc LA purple martial knowledge and Warlock. My sorc in light armmor tanks as well or better then my DK. why because the game relys way to much on DPs mechanics. its not balanced nor implemented correctly in end game . Never even try to much with the trinity system in an MMO, many will disagree with this but at the end of the day they all make the same mistake. Dilute game mechanics .

chris_clemencyb14_ESO

that stinks to hear that...might go back to FFXIV. Love this game, but love tanking more

Cody

I have a tank in WoW I played till about level 70. im not very experienced in tanking, but I do get the idea of it, and I have to agree with a lot of people here. tanking in this game is.... odd. heck, iv run quite a few dungeons with only DPS and healer. as long as you have a healer, and you deal more damage than the boss, you are fine. no tanking is needed. I have played maybe a few bosses with hard hitting hits that required the tank to take it so the DPS peeps and/or healer would not die, but that's it. only a few:/ its just attack enemy, get healed by healer. no tank is needed. The veteran dungeons you may need a tank, but many people say you don't, and im inclined to believe them(and I have played veteran dungeons, and I do have tank in this game)

Cahuani

As much as I too hate the OPness of the staff-bearing skirt-lovers..

In a sense of realism, magic-users SHOULD be OP. I would bet money on a wizard over a warrior any day. Why do you think in so many games the tactic is "kill the mages first"?

What this game needs is a way to make the melee dps count for more. Even if the wizard wins 9 days out of 10, when a warrior ever does close the distance before he is scorched/fried/frozen/barbecued/imploded/disintegrated, steel wins.