Tanks are unneeded end game.

SirJesto · August 2014

Anti-Magic areas of dungeons.....

Exarch · August 2014

Just to play devil's advocate, is there a reason that it's inherently desirable to have a tank role, the traditional "player vs. party" holder of all aggro, be necessary? Is it just a different mechanism to keep all the fights from being the same?

It could be argued that the ESO designers looked at the relative unpopularity of 'main tank', and "player vs. unit frames" main healer, in other games (see the why aren't there enough tanks and healers thread on the forums of damn near any other MMO) and deliberately tried to make a game where players could play that way if they wanted, but no one needed to in order to put a group together.

Stalwart385 · August 2014

1. Light armor tank tend to wear mana gear. Missing out on miss chance and stamina regens.
2. Light armor tanks do not have the stamina to do real tanking (blocking, interrupts, weakening taunts, dodging, cc breaking)
3. A good tank has more than a taunt.
4. A good tank cannot easily switch to DPS. It requires all new gear and new skill lines to level. Basically starting over minus your character level.
5. A good tank can help with DPS when possible but is not a real DPS.
6. A good tank will make a vet dungeon and trial much easier.
7. A good tank goes from being 25% of the team to 8% of the team at VR12.

I'm not discussing if a tank is helpful through the game. You can make it without one, but having a good one makes life a lot easier. Experience and request for me to join teams tells me this. I'm wondering why they drastically diminished the tank at endgame.

SirJesto · August 2014

Exarch wrote: »

Just to play devil's advocate, is there a reason that it's inherently desirable to have a tank role, the traditional "player vs. party" holder of all aggro, be necessary? Is it just a different mechanism to keep all the fights from being the same?

It could be argued that the ESO designers looked at the relative unpopularity of 'main tank', and "player vs. unit frames" main healer, in other games (see the why aren't there enough tanks and healers thread on the forums of damn near any other MMO) and deliberately tried to make a game where players could play that way if they wanted, but no one needed to in order to put a group together.

The point is there should be some areas of content where a traditional Tank role would make it easier to pass. There isn't.

Anastasia · August 2014

Exarch wrote: »

Just to play devil's advocate, is there a reason that it's inherently desirable to have a tank role, the traditional "player vs. party" holder of all aggro, be necessary? Is it just a different mechanism to keep all the fights from being the same?

It could be argued that the ESO designers looked at the relative unpopularity of 'main tank', and "player vs. unit frames" main healer, in other games (see the why aren't there enough tanks and healers thread on the forums of damn near any other MMO) and deliberately tried to make a game where players could play that way if they wanted, but no one needed to in order to put a group together.

LoL. Point understood Exarch.

Really its too, too, too bad people now solo cradle to heaven's gate in PvE and then sadly, aren't ready for what TESO has in this MMO PvE endgame. They also, apparently are not figuring out along the way (*not pointing fingers at the players here either) that the subject of this thread will be of tantamount importance upon arrival in said endgame.

DPS bars set in the way ZOS designed PvE Timed Trials call for a minimum amount of cumulative DPS in order for that group to win. Even if the group is filled with super nice, wonderful, patient players -- if you cannot provide the support role, you are NOT going to be desired in the group.

Further if you enjoy a tank archtype, and even if you have hybrid'd it up on your solo journey...one's natural assumptions of somehow being needed upon arrival at endgame will be dashed. A few good tankish types are needed, but as is evidenced in this thread - not going to be that many main tanking slots up for grabs.

We don't need no grouping mess anytime below V+10 now do we? Just make it so its comfy soloing from tutorial to Vet+ 10/11/12. Its all good. /sarcasm.

Trainwreck of player sub decisions.

>>>>"...tried to make a game where players could play that way if they wanted, but no one needed to in order to put a group together."

Yea?
NO. Didn't work.

Exarch · August 2014

SirJesto wrote: »

The point is there should be some areas of content where a traditional Tank role would make it easier to pass. There isn't.

But that's the question that's going begging, why should there be such areas?

SirJesto · August 2014

Exarch wrote: »

SirJesto wrote: »

The point is there should be some areas of content where a traditional Tank role would make it easier to pass. There isn't.

But that's the question that's going begging, why should there be such areas?

Why not?

And I'll tell you why there should. Because there are players who enjoy the Tank role.

Stalwart385 · August 2014

This is a role playing game. In other words people have different roles and support each other for the greater good. If this became a full DPS game I might as well go play call of duty.

My character can take a lick so you can be a glass cannon. Simple as that.

Aeratus · August 2014

Stalwart385 wrote: »

1. Light armor tank tend to wear mana gear. Missing out on miss chance and stamina regens.
2. Light armor tanks do not have the stamina to do real tanking (blocking, interrupts, weakening taunts, dodging, cc breaking)

Hmm, I bet you haven't seen a good light armor NB tank in action. With siphoning attacks, NB tanks regen stamina at an insane rate, combined with the NB stamina passive.

Fleymark · August 2014

chris_clemencyb14_ESO wrote: »

It's always disappointing to read this. I've been a tank in every game Ive ever played. Im currently 15 and 20 (because I wanted to try a different race to see what difference the race skills made). I've tanked all 3 of the early level dungeons and it seems like I do have a place when fighting the boss mobs...never have much trouble losing aggro at all. if this doesnt change throughout the game, then I'd say everyone is being a bit over the top on there not being any reason to be a tank. Also, I have a healer and I had to work...I couldn't just keep dps'ing and hope everyone stayed alive...I had to heal....maybe I was in bad groups, but it seemed like the Trinity was in effect.

The trials on the other hand, sound like just a good theory, but bad idea...if anyone can chime in on later levels I'd appreciate it. I do like the game, but if Im no use as a tank, I have no use for the game.

The game works as one would generally expect pre-50. It changes in vet content to pretty much be light/staff >all. And in some of it (trials) there are encounters that generally cannot be done without optimal builds which is pretty much light/staff. When I started a couple weeks after release I thought people were being really alarmist and knee jerky, but it only seems that way because you are at low levels. And because for dungeons people actually think they need a healer, a tank, and dps. I thought that too. Heals and dps will do it in most cases. I was in one dungeon group that was all dps with a heal staff sorc with pets and we rolled it.

The people behind this game are simply uninterested in making balance or anything resembling role interdependence a real priority. What is important right now, apparently, are things like armor dyes and other fluff.

Laura · August 2014

trials still need tanks that's the pve end game.

Only game I REALLY saw tanks help in pvp was EQ2

Fleymark · August 2014

Cahuani wrote: »

As much as I too hate the OPness of the staff-bearing skirt-lovers..

In a sense of realism, magic-users SHOULD be OP. I would bet money on a wizard over a warrior any day. Why do you think in so many games the tactic is "kill the mages first"?

What this game needs is a way to make the melee dps count for more. Even if the wizard wins 9 days out of 10, when a warrior ever does close the distance before he is scorched/fried/frozen/barbecued/imploded/disintegrated, steel wins.

Op for dps. But one and a half melee hits should kill them, IMO. Not the case here.

It's called balance.

Casters wreck shop in other games toon. But with actual downsides.

And you shouldn't be able to tank in light armor and heavy armor shouldn't be comparatively useless. They act like some kind of rocket scientry and voodoo is required to balance this game. A great first start would be requiring the actual armor type of each armor active ability be actually worn to be able to use the ability. And make melee, archery, and thrown dagger hits really really hurt those with low armor factor. With one shots being on the table.

Yes, casters should do insane damage. And they should be able to protect themselves relatively with defensive spells. But if they let a weapon hit get thru they should die or close.

Exarch · August 2014

Stalwart385 wrote: »

This is a role playing game. In other words people have different roles and support each other for the greater good.

Not terribly relevant to the current discussion, but that is not what the "role" in role-playing game means, it means that each player plays an individual character as a role in a shared narrative; it was used as a description to help explain the difference between something like the original Dungeons & Dragons and the wargaming out of which it grew, where each player controlled large numbers of interchangeable units.

khele23eb17_ESO · August 2014

Laura wrote: »

trials still need tanks that's the pve end game.

Only game I REALLY saw tanks help in pvp was EQ2

Warhammer Online.

Fleymark · August 2014

Laura wrote: »

trials still need tanks that's the pve end game.

Only game I REALLY saw tanks help in pvp was EQ2

DAoC

robertlive2014 · August 2014

My recommendation to the OP is to develop a dual spec. In my guild it's pretty much a requirement to have two specs. Also, you can get all the best tanking gear while you're running a DPS build. In fact, this is an important point to take home, most players will do better to run as a DPS a bunch of times to get to know all the mechanics before being responsible for tanking.

It's true that tanks are not nearly as required for some of the trials bosses. One time I remember well, the tank accidentally swapped out with another DPS right before we started an AA run. We actually didn't notice we had no tank until we got to the Wisp Mother. Just by chance then, I got to fill in with my tank spec, and since I knew the mechanics well from past experience as a DPS, I had no trouble even though it was my first time tanking there.

SirJesto · August 2014

robertlive2014 wrote: »

My recommendation to the OP is to develop a dual spec. In my guild it's pretty much a requirement to have two specs. Also, you can get all the best tanking gear while you're running a DPS build. In fact, this is an important point to take home, most players will do better to run as a DPS a bunch of times to get to know all the mechanics before being responsible for tanking.

It's true that tanks are not nearly as required for some of the trials bosses. One time I remember well, the tank accidentally swapped out with another DPS right before we started an AA run. We actually didn't notice we had no tank until we got to the Wisp Mother. Just by chance then, I got to fill in with my tank spec, and since I knew the mechanics well from past experience as a DPS, I had no trouble even though it was my first time tanking there.

that's the whole point. Because you don't need a tank. You only need an attention grabber, and that's too bad.

jamie.goddenrwb17_ESO · August 2014

Fleymark wrote: »

And you shouldn't be able to tank in light armor and heavy armor shouldn't be comparatively useless. They act like some kind of rocket scientry and voodoo is required to balance this game. A great first start would be requiring the actual armor type of each armor active ability be actually worn to be able to use the ability. And make melee, archery, and thrown dagger hits really really hurt those with low armor factor. With one shots being on the table.

Yes, casters should do insane damage. And they should be able to protect themselves relatively with defensive spells. But if they let a weapon hit get thru they should die or close.

There should be an at least one way to perform any role with any weapon/armor loadout, doing so should just prevent you from also performing the other roles at the same time. Light armor tank? Fine, make the spell that boosts the armor rating cripple your damage enough that you can't out dps the dps. Melee in heavy armor? Fine, make an ability that boosts your damage but removes at least part of the bonus protection, call it berserker or something. Heal in medium? Fine....well I don't know, find some way...

The point is, this is still Elder Scrolls. There should be a way to do whatever role you want...just not all roles at the same time.

Wifeaggro13 · August 2014

jamie.goddenrwb17_ESO wrote: »

Fleymark wrote: »

And you shouldn't be able to tank in light armor and heavy armor shouldn't be comparatively useless. They act like some kind of rocket scientry and voodoo is required to balance this game. A great first start would be requiring the actual armor type of each armor active ability be actually worn to be able to use the ability. And make melee, archery, and thrown dagger hits really really hurt those with low armor factor. With one shots being on the table.

Yes, casters should do insane damage. And they should be able to protect themselves relatively with defensive spells. But if they let a weapon hit get thru they should die or close.

There should be an at least one way to perform any role with any weapon/armor loadout, doing so should just prevent you from also performing the other roles at the same time. Light armor tank? Fine, make the spell that boosts the armor rating cripple your damage enough that you can't out dps the dps. Melee in heavy armor? Fine, make an ability that boosts your damage but removes at least part of the bonus protection, call it berserker or something. Heal in medium? Fine....well I don't know, find some way...

The point is, this is still Elder Scrolls. There should be a way to do whatever role you want...just not all roles at the same time.

Its called offensive and defensive stance in other games.

Xsorus · August 2014

I have no problem if someone wants to tank in Light armor, or Medium Armor

Saying you shouldn't be able to do it because you believe this game should be like all the rest is silly.

Wifeaggro13 · August 2014

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

I have no problem if someone wants to tank in Light armor, or Medium Armor

Saying you shouldn't be able to do it because you believe this game should be like all the rest is silly.

Well you cant dps or heal in heavy so why should you be able tank in light dont defend inept bad game design. Devs wont give you in game massages .

jamie.goddenrwb17_ESO · August 2014

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

I have no problem if someone wants to tank in Light armor, or Medium Armor

Saying you shouldn't be able to do it because you believe this game should be like all the rest is silly.

Well you cant dps or heal in heavy so why should you be able tank in light dont defend inept bad game design. Devs wont give you in game massages .

Think that's what we both meant, you should be able to do both rather than neither.

Fleymark · August 2014

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

I have no problem if someone wants to tank in Light armor, or Medium Armor

Saying you shouldn't be able to do it because you believe this game should be like all the rest is silly.

Well you cant dps or heal in heavy so why should you be able tank in light dont defend inept bad game design. Devs wont give you in game massages .

Pretty much this.

I'm all for the "this is elder scrolls so all armor types should be able to build for all roles" spirit, but it's not working that way. What's pretty much happening is everybody is able to do everything pre50 if they want, then in vet content it gradually deteriorates to a specific extreme situation where select builds can do everything and everything else can't do anything.

No bueno.

They need to allow the archetypical builds to stake out territory in roles and require role interdependence before getting fancy schmancy with things like every armor type filling every role.

You gotta crawl before you can walk and walk before you can run.

RSram · August 2014

I'm on my 6 character at VR8, and the PVE part of the game has been nerfed so bad that all I use is a pet for a tank and I kite using a destruction staff and knock back. I rarely take much in damage unless I do something stupid. Most of the time I could be naked and it wouldn't make a difference.

The only places where I have problems are with three or more bosses that use ranged weapons, or have outrageous health caps (where knockback doesn't work), and in public dungeons dealing with large mobs. I haven't done much PVE in Cyrodiil yet so I can't comment on that.

My first character was a Templar tank build that when nowhere, so at Lvl 45, I deleted it and started over with a sorcerer build which was easier to kick *ss with. Armor doesn't give any advantages when fighting Bosses like the Storm Atronarchs. It's safer just to dodge or streak in my opinion and wear light armor, or underwear.

Persephonius · August 2014

Stalwart385 wrote: »

I hit VR12 and made my endgame tanking armor set. I found a good coordinated guild so that I could run trials.

We'll now I can't run trials...

Right now having more than one tank in a trial is a hindrance. I went through the game getting request to help tank dungeons every night. Now I can't get into a trial because there are two or three tanks out of 14 people trying to run a trial. I have to sit by and hope to get a slot eventually sometime through the night. At the same time to make it in I have to tell other friends I can't help them run dungeons because I'm sitting in que.

How can I go from a valuable piece to un-needed. Why is only 1 tank needed out of 12 people? That ratio makes no sense.

There are several simple mechanics that can be imbedded into trials that would require groups to bring 2 or 3 tanks. Tank switching is a common one. For example, a boss that does increasing damage to a player the more times that player is hit. The player would receive a stacking debuff, if that debuff gets to high, the tank will ultimately die, and so tank switching is needed throughout the fight. Another mechanic that comes to mind is a rapid hard hitting boss that drains a tanks stamina rather quickly, requiring tank switches to allow the current off tank time to recover stamina. Other scenarios such as certain adds that spawn need to be controlled and placed in certain places, or just prevent them wrecking havoc on the raid group, the off tank would need to pick them up. Or trials where a raid group needs to be split with cross group co-ordination that would require a tank in both groups. Such as tank A needs to place boss A in spot X so that a shield is removed on Boss B allowing Boss B to be damaged that is being tanked by tank B. There are lots clever mechanics I have experienced in other MMO's of this nature. I understand that eso would want to be unique with its mechanics and not follow the same patterns as the examples listed above. However the stamina drain requiring a tank switch is unique to the eso system in a sense, that could work well. I am sure there are lots of other unique mechanics that can be implemented in trials so they need more than one tank.

jamie.goddenrwb17_ESO · August 2014

Fleymark wrote: »

Pretty much this.

I'm all for the "this is elder scrolls so all armor types should be able to build for all roles" spirit, but it's not working that way. What's pretty much happening is everybody is able to do everything pre50 if they want, then in vet content it gradually deteriorates to a specific extreme situation where select builds can do everything and everything else can't do anything.

No bueno.

They need to allow the archetypical builds to stake out territory in roles and require role interdependence before getting fancy schmancy with things like every armor type filling every role.

You gotta crawl before you can walk and walk before you can run.

Fact is, light armor already can do anything. The other two just need to be balanced so they can too.

Encounters also need to be tuned so that different roles are necessary (or at least useful) instead of pointless.

dietlime · August 2014

1.) Be tank.

2.) Be fake healer.

3.) Claim healing.

4.) Trials are even easier now that you have 1.5 tanks and a tank dedicated to healing that 2-man tank, but take longer; people cry, rinse-repeat.

dietlime · August 2014

NookyZooky wrote: »

I have a tank in WoW I played till about level 70. im not very experienced in tanking, but I do get the idea of it, and I have to agree with a lot of people here. tanking in this game is.... odd. heck, iv run quite a few dungeons with only DPS and healer. as long as you have a healer, and you deal more damage than the boss, you are fine. no tanking is needed. I have played maybe a few bosses with hard hitting hits that required the tank to take it so the DPS peeps and/or healer would not die, but that's it. only a few:/ its just attack enemy, get healed by healer. no tank is needed. The veteran dungeons you may need a tank, but many people say you don't, and im inclined to believe them(and I have played veteran dungeons, and I do have tank in this game)

This isn't like most other MMO's, if you're just now noticing. The similarities are skin deep.

dietlime · August 2014

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

My sorc in light armmor tanks as well or better then my DK.

Yes, the DK; another class with lots of damage synergies.

Your sorc has 1,400 armor and spell resist and regenerates 300 hp/s??? With what skills?

Evandus · August 2014

The design portion needs some tweaking in encounters perhaps as well. At least, on the surface, if the primary damage mitigation for bosses was actually armor (not spell resistance/fire resistance) tanking viability would gain ground. Stationary, or near stationary bosses don't seem to help either.