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• PC/Mac: No maintenance – September 8
• PC/Mac: EU megaserver for maintenance – September 9, 22:00 UTC (6:00PM EDT) - September 10, 16:00 UTC (12:00PM EDT) https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/682784
Use of the "Alliance War Citizen" rank for PvE players in PvP
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cracker81✭✭✭
(example not really how I am lol)I am a pvper, I dont care about alliance points, But I want an advantage in pvp, im in it for the kill the rush ect, so I put my char as a citizen, i then am walking around and see an enemy, he sees me and dosent attack as he dosent want the penalty applied to him, it allows me to attack first, giving me an upper hand and an advantage in that pvp encounter.
Yes I understand that this is a concern, but how would it be exploitable? If you can come up with some examples I can try to refine the idea in order to alleviate them.the issue with this is for people who dont care about alliance wars points, they would then make there char a citizen to give them a surprise advantage against the enemy. Alot of people dont care about the points instead they would make them selves citizen so you dont look at them twice and then they hamstring you, this system is to exploitable.
One solution might be...
If a Citizen Player attacks a player first, no matter if it's another Citizen player or a PvP player, all the damage from their own attack would apply to themselves. This would help to stop that exploit advantage.
That could work. Equally, since this is a system designed for people who don't want to PvP, then it could just not allow them to attack other players (aside from in self-defence).Cyrdemaceb17_ESO wrote: »I think it is possible to introduce such a system without too much exploit. So you can only be a citizen as long as you don't have any higher rank already. Higher rank removes the citizen option permanently.
Now comes the BUT: but giving players an easy way to get all the achievements in Cyrodiil negates the harder work, pvp-players had to do for getting them.
I think clearing your previous alliance rank and benefits is a reasonable trade-off for players who wish to become Citizens. This would allow anyone currently PvPing to get out of it if they wanted to, as they are essentially returned to the same state as a newly-arrived citizen.
I understand what you mean about the achievements, but that's, in my opinion, just the same difference as someone who has gained them from a fully-populated campaign versus someone who has gained them from going to one where their alliance always owns everything.
So I've been thinking about what you've been saying about not wanting penalties for killing spies, and I've come up with this:- No Penalty for killing a Citizen in the grounds of any Keep (friendly or enemy); instead, AP bonus for killing a Citizen in an enemy Keep (an obvious spy). No bonus or penalty for killing a Citizen who wanders into an area designated as a "battle" on the map (unless at a Keep, then a bonus as above).
- Standard Penalty (eg 1000 Gold bounty, lose 5000 AP) for killing a Citizen within their Home Territory.
- Reduced Penalty (eg 1000 Gold bounty, lose 1000 AP) for killing a Citizen within a town in their Home Territory. No AP loss if the town is enemy-controlled.
- Limited Penalty (eg 500 Gold bounty, lose 1000 AP) for killing a Citizen in Enemy Territory.
- Minimal Penalty (eg 500 Gold bounty, no loss of AP) for killing a Citizen in a town in Enemy Territory. AP bonus if the town is enemy-controlled.
or we could use the system we have now, not complicate it and the people that want to pve can sneak to the areas, there really are very few gankers like me who like to hang out in towns and play the bandit roles, most are zerging and seiging...I love going deep behind enemy lines and educating small groups in the finer points of mace to face etiquette, but I cant be every where at once...
I decide one time to try out pve cyrodiil and take a break from pvp. Bam some guy try to gank me.. Lol it was fun but I guess he did not expect a rank pvper in that area.1 -
Daragon✭Think its a bad idea. I understand the want of pve'ers to get the achievements and skyshards from cyrodil but there are ways to do that with minimal risks and it would negate or trivialize the work and risk pvp'ers had to put in.
Also this is a medieval/fantasy setting, there is no such thing as the Geneva convention or anything like that. Even in your own home grown zones (1-50) citizens of your own alliance lead precarious existences. There are monsters and bad people all around. In a war zone in this setting citizens were/ should be fair game especially for enemy troops, same as in your own zone.
Its a risk coming to cyrodil but that's also the fun of it. If you are serious about getting the achievements and skyshards well then you take the risk. If you die? So what, you died, either come back or if there are gankers there, who cares, its a frigging HUGE map, go somewhere else and get the next one, come back to the one you were killed at later.
Or get together with a group of friends/guildies and do it together. That was the whole point of Cyrodil to start with. And if you are pure pve'er, why do you care if another player does kill you (besides the obvious inconvenience of having to get back to where you were - but that's the risk and fun of Cyrodil)?3 -
zdkazz✭✭✭✭
yeah, it feels good when someone hits you first and you flip it around on them and kill them, I love an honorable 1v1 in the fields of war, nothing better.
(example not really how I am lol)I am a pvper, I dont care about alliance points, But I want an advantage in pvp, im in it for the kill the rush ect, so I put my char as a citizen, i then am walking around and see an enemy, he sees me and dosent attack as he dosent want the penalty applied to him, it allows me to attack first, giving me an upper hand and an advantage in that pvp encounter.
Yes I understand that this is a concern, but how would it be exploitable? If you can come up with some examples I can try to refine the idea in order to alleviate them.the issue with this is for people who dont care about alliance wars points, they would then make there char a citizen to give them a surprise advantage against the enemy. Alot of people dont care about the points instead they would make them selves citizen so you dont look at them twice and then they hamstring you, this system is to exploitable.
One solution might be...
If a Citizen Player attacks a player first, no matter if it's another Citizen player or a PvP player, all the damage from their own attack would apply to themselves. This would help to stop that exploit advantage.
That could work. Equally, since this is a system designed for people who don't want to PvP, then it could just not allow them to attack other players (aside from in self-defence).Cyrdemaceb17_ESO wrote: »I think it is possible to introduce such a system without too much exploit. So you can only be a citizen as long as you don't have any higher rank already. Higher rank removes the citizen option permanently.
Now comes the BUT: but giving players an easy way to get all the achievements in Cyrodiil negates the harder work, pvp-players had to do for getting them.
I think clearing your previous alliance rank and benefits is a reasonable trade-off for players who wish to become Citizens. This would allow anyone currently PvPing to get out of it if they wanted to, as they are essentially returned to the same state as a newly-arrived citizen.
I understand what you mean about the achievements, but that's, in my opinion, just the same difference as someone who has gained them from a fully-populated campaign versus someone who has gained them from going to one where their alliance always owns everything.
So I've been thinking about what you've been saying about not wanting penalties for killing spies, and I've come up with this:- No Penalty for killing a Citizen in the grounds of any Keep (friendly or enemy); instead, AP bonus for killing a Citizen in an enemy Keep (an obvious spy). No bonus or penalty for killing a Citizen who wanders into an area designated as a "battle" on the map (unless at a Keep, then a bonus as above).
- Standard Penalty (eg 1000 Gold bounty, lose 5000 AP) for killing a Citizen within their Home Territory.
- Reduced Penalty (eg 1000 Gold bounty, lose 1000 AP) for killing a Citizen within a town in their Home Territory. No AP loss if the town is enemy-controlled.
- Limited Penalty (eg 500 Gold bounty, lose 1000 AP) for killing a Citizen in Enemy Territory.
- Minimal Penalty (eg 500 Gold bounty, no loss of AP) for killing a Citizen in a town in Enemy Territory. AP bonus if the town is enemy-controlled.
or we could use the system we have now, not complicate it and the people that want to pve can sneak to the areas, there really are very few gankers like me who like to hang out in towns and play the bandit roles, most are zerging and seiging...I love going deep behind enemy lines and educating small groups in the finer points of mace to face etiquette, but I cant be every where at once...
I decide one time to try out pve cyrodiil and take a break from pvp. Bam some guy try to gank me.. Lol it was fun but I guess he did not expect a rank pvper in that area.Edited by zdkazz on July 25, 2014 5:39PM3 -
Dilly_Waffles✭✭✭Has anyone yet thought of the lag? I play on EU so I can't talk for those in US, but at peak times in the general lag can be felt just walking from place to place at times. Then when battles commence of, say, 30v30, with oils and meatbags etc. the spikes can become unbearable.
The last thing we need is for 100 more people to be in Cyrodiil, especially when they're not interacting with the war at all and just doing their own thing.
I know this may seem PvP biased, but think about it. It'll be everyone getting the lag. Meaning thatyou're doing PvE, you've moved all the way to the other side of the map for a dungeon, game locks up, you die a PvE death, sent back to your gate.0 -
Enodoc✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Dilly_Waffles wrote: »Has anyone yet thought of the lag? I play on EU so I can't talk for those in US, but at peak times in the general lag can be felt just walking from place to place at times. Then when battles commence of, say, 30v30, with oils and meatbags etc. the spikes can become unbearable.
The last thing we need is for 100 more people to be in Cyrodiil, especially when they're not interacting with the war at all and just doing their own thing.
I know this may seem PvP biased, but think about it. It'll be everyone getting the lag. Meaning thatyou're doing PvE, you've moved all the way to the other side of the map for a dungeon, game locks up, you die a PvE death, sent back to your gate.
The population limits would still be the same though, so the lag wouldn't get worse than it has been before. Also, the PvEers would stay away from the big battles, so they shouldn't adversely affect them, nor be adversely affected by them.UESP: The Unofficial Elder Scrolls Pages - A collaborative source for all knowledge on the Elder Scrolls series since 1995
Join us on Discord - discord.gg/uesp1 -
Sharee✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No. Any player in cyrodiil has to be a legitimate target. Otherwise youll soon have 'citizens' spying and reporting on enemy troop movements.
If you really want to just pve, ask for a pve-only phase of cyrodiil where you cannot see enemy players and keeps/scrolls are not capturable.
You could have a warning come up when entering an enemy territory will be flag as a spy if you don't turn back.
There is no 'enemy territory'. All of cyrodiil is enemy territory at all times.
How do you define what is your territory? Is glademist DC territory? Well that depends on who owns it. And even if it is owned by DC, there still might be a hidden enemy camp from which AD plans to launch an attack. Yet the AD can not kill a DC 'civillian' scouting the area for the camp?
Punishing players for killing enemy faction players in a PVP zone opens a whole pandora's box of exploitation opportunities.1 -
Dilly_Waffles✭✭✭
The population limits would still be the same though, so the lag wouldn't get worse than it has been before. Also, the PvEers would stay away from the big battles, so they shouldn't adversely affect them, nor be adversely affected by them.
Then there's the question of balance. I'm Aldmeri and the campaign is on lockout. Say there's 60 people logged into my alliance into my campaign that're just doing PvE and none on the other alliances. That is a massive disadvantage for my alliance and completely unfair.
And like I said in my first post; regardless of their activity in battle, when all sides are locked during peak times, lag can still be experienced quite commonly, even just travelling from place to place.
0 -
Asgari✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭All is fair on the battlefield. Good luck doing that dungeon or quest... Ill just kill you and my lovely AP reward for doing. as you were PvErFormerly @Persian_Princess .. Now @Asgari
Princess Asgari | Sorc
Asgari | NB
-Asgari | Stamplar
Ariana Kishi | DK | True Liberator of Haderus
Banner Down!
No Mercy
Youtube: Asgari0 -
zdkazz✭✭✭✭
(example not really how I am lol)I am a pvper, I dont care about alliance points, But I want an advantage in pvp, im in it for the kill the rush ect, so I put my char as a citizen, i then am walking around and see an enemy, he sees me and dosent attack as he dosent want the penalty applied to him, it allows me to attack first, giving me an upper hand and an advantage in that pvp encounter.
Yes I understand that this is a concern, but how would it be exploitable? If you can come up with some examples I can try to refine the idea in order to alleviate them.the issue with this is for people who dont care about alliance wars points, they would then make there char a citizen to give them a surprise advantage against the enemy. Alot of people dont care about the points instead they would make them selves citizen so you dont look at them twice and then they hamstring you, this system is to exploitable.
One solution might be...
If a Citizen Player attacks a player first, no matter if it's another Citizen player or a PvP player, all the damage from their own attack would apply to themselves. This would help to stop that exploit advantage.
That could work. Equally, since this is a system designed for people who don't want to PvP, then it could just not allow them to attack other players (aside from in self-defence).Cyrdemaceb17_ESO wrote: »I think it is possible to introduce such a system without too much exploit. So you can only be a citizen as long as you don't have any higher rank already. Higher rank removes the citizen option permanently.
Now comes the BUT: but giving players an easy way to get all the achievements in Cyrodiil negates the harder work, pvp-players had to do for getting them.
I think clearing your previous alliance rank and benefits is a reasonable trade-off for players who wish to become Citizens. This would allow anyone currently PvPing to get out of it if they wanted to, as they are essentially returned to the same state as a newly-arrived citizen.
I understand what you mean about the achievements, but that's, in my opinion, just the same difference as someone who has gained them from a fully-populated campaign versus someone who has gained them from going to one where their alliance always owns everything.
So I've been thinking about what you've been saying about not wanting penalties for killing spies, and I've come up with this:- No Penalty for killing a Citizen in the grounds of any Keep (friendly or enemy); instead, AP bonus for killing a Citizen in an enemy Keep (an obvious spy). No bonus or penalty for killing a Citizen who wanders into an area designated as a "battle" on the map (unless at a Keep, then a bonus as above).
- Standard Penalty (eg 1000 Gold bounty, lose 5000 AP) for killing a Citizen within their Home Territory.
- Reduced Penalty (eg 1000 Gold bounty, lose 1000 AP) for killing a Citizen within a town in their Home Territory. No AP loss if the town is enemy-controlled.
- Limited Penalty (eg 500 Gold bounty, lose 1000 AP) for killing a Citizen in Enemy Territory.
- Minimal Penalty (eg 500 Gold bounty, no loss of AP) for killing a Citizen in a town in Enemy Territory. AP bonus if the town is enemy-controlled.
and what happens if i go in there with no ap and no gold? are they un killable? or do i have to write the high command an i owe you note?1 -
Artemiisia✭✭✭✭✭
✭doing pve in cyrodil is freaking easy, come on.....
for me that started out hating pvp, I found myself a server where the whole map was owned by us, and there were nobody inside.
so I used like 3-4 hours to do all the dungeons, skyshard and quests without seeing a single enemy until I went to the last quest hub Burma, at that time its was prime time and more had come on, so I did that the next day.
on a side note, I love pvp now, and looking so forward to the Imperial City !!3 -
smeeprocketnub19_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭We have one zone. You continue to suggest ideas that would take that from us, while complaining about opt in world pvp.
It is a war zone, if you go there, you are a combatant. I shouldn't get punished for killing you. I don't even understand the concept of making something possible, and then adding in an actual punishment for the player using a feature of the game.
Honestly, you shouldn't even get the 2 skillpoints from the tutorial. There's just no way to determine if you are a pve'rs or a pvp'r on that one.Dear Sister, I do not spread rumors, I create them.7 -
clayandaudrey_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭I think if people want to do the quests they should find a server where their alliance is facerolling and go there. The quests and delves are stupid easy and don't take long. If you want a Pve cyrodiil then fine but it needs to not give the achievements or a different set than ones now attainable.2 -
cracker81✭✭✭
I was thinking of away for pve ppl to come in. I like how it is now.No. Any player in cyrodiil has to be a legitimate target. Otherwise youll soon have 'citizens' spying and reporting on enemy troop movements.
If you really want to just pve, ask for a pve-only phase of cyrodiil where you cannot see enemy players and keeps/scrolls are not capturable.
You could have a warning come up when entering an enemy territory will be flag as a spy if you don't turn back.
There is no 'enemy territory'. All of cyrodiil is enemy territory at all times.
How do you define what is your territory? Is glademist DC territory? Well that depends on who owns it. And even if it is owned by DC, there still might be a hidden enemy camp from which AD plans to launch an attack. Yet the AD can not kill a DC 'civillian' scouting the area for the camp?
Punishing players for killing enemy faction players in a PVP zone opens a whole pandora's box of exploitation opportunities.
0 -
Enodoc✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No. Any player in cyrodiil has to be a legitimate target. Otherwise youll soon have 'citizens' spying and reporting on enemy troop movements.
If you really want to just pve, ask for a pve-only phase of cyrodiil where you cannot see enemy players and keeps/scrolls are not capturable.
You could have a warning come up when entering an enemy territory will be flag as a spy if you don't turn back.
There is no 'enemy territory'. All of cyrodiil is enemy territory at all times.
How do you define what is your territory? Is glademist DC territory? Well that depends on who owns it. And even if it is owned by DC, there still might be a hidden enemy camp from which AD plans to launch an attack. Yet the AD can not kill a DC 'civillian' scouting the area for the camp?
Punishing players for killing enemy faction players in a PVP zone opens a whole pandora's box of exploitation opportunities.
Each faction has a defined "Home Territory". Borders between these "territories" are only crossable at the six Milegates and three Bridges. Non-combatant Citizens should feel safest in their Home Territory so there is a higher penalty there. Killing that DC player who may or may not be scouting the camp; that's a judgement call on the part of the AD. Do you incur the fine for killing a potentially innocent guy who's just passing through his own farmyard (RP-wise), or do you potentially give up your position to a spy? That's a strategy decision for you to make. An NPC could do the same thing, in which he runs in terror to the nearest guardpost and gives away the position. If you killed him to stop him giving you away, under the Justice System, you'd incur a bounty for that as well. It's the same idea here with this Citizen player.
If you have a cumulative total of 0 AP, then you are also a Citizen. If you have a cumulative of more than 0, but a current AP of 0 because you spent it all, you go into AP debt.
(example not really how I am lol)I am a pvper, I dont care about alliance points, But I want an advantage in pvp, im in it for the kill the rush ect, so I put my char as a citizen, i then am walking around and see an enemy, he sees me and dosent attack as he dosent want the penalty applied to him, it allows me to attack first, giving me an upper hand and an advantage in that pvp encounter.
Yes I understand that this is a concern, but how would it be exploitable? If you can come up with some examples I can try to refine the idea in order to alleviate them.the issue with this is for people who dont care about alliance wars points, they would then make there char a citizen to give them a surprise advantage against the enemy. Alot of people dont care about the points instead they would make them selves citizen so you dont look at them twice and then they hamstring you, this system is to exploitable.
One solution might be...
If a Citizen Player attacks a player first, no matter if it's another Citizen player or a PvP player, all the damage from their own attack would apply to themselves. This would help to stop that exploit advantage.
That could work. Equally, since this is a system designed for people who don't want to PvP, then it could just not allow them to attack other players (aside from in self-defence).Cyrdemaceb17_ESO wrote: »I think it is possible to introduce such a system without too much exploit. So you can only be a citizen as long as you don't have any higher rank already. Higher rank removes the citizen option permanently.
Now comes the BUT: but giving players an easy way to get all the achievements in Cyrodiil negates the harder work, pvp-players had to do for getting them.
I think clearing your previous alliance rank and benefits is a reasonable trade-off for players who wish to become Citizens. This would allow anyone currently PvPing to get out of it if they wanted to, as they are essentially returned to the same state as a newly-arrived citizen.
I understand what you mean about the achievements, but that's, in my opinion, just the same difference as someone who has gained them from a fully-populated campaign versus someone who has gained them from going to one where their alliance always owns everything.
So I've been thinking about what you've been saying about not wanting penalties for killing spies, and I've come up with this:- No Penalty for killing a Citizen in the grounds of any Keep (friendly or enemy); instead, AP bonus for killing a Citizen in an enemy Keep (an obvious spy). No bonus or penalty for killing a Citizen who wanders into an area designated as a "battle" on the map (unless at a Keep, then a bonus as above).
- Standard Penalty (eg 1000 Gold bounty, lose 5000 AP) for killing a Citizen within their Home Territory.
- Reduced Penalty (eg 1000 Gold bounty, lose 1000 AP) for killing a Citizen within a town in their Home Territory. No AP loss if the town is enemy-controlled.
- Limited Penalty (eg 500 Gold bounty, lose 1000 AP) for killing a Citizen in Enemy Territory.
- Minimal Penalty (eg 500 Gold bounty, no loss of AP) for killing a Citizen in a town in Enemy Territory. AP bonus if the town is enemy-controlled.
and what happens if i go in there with no ap and no gold? are they un killable? or do i have to write the high command an i owe you note?
If you have no gold, then it's the same as if you have no gold under the Justice System. Your only option with the guards is Resist Arrest.smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »We have one zone. You continue to suggest ideas that would take that from us, while complaining about opt in world pvp.
It is a war zone, if you go there, you are a combatant. I shouldn't get punished for killing you. I don't even understand the concept of making something possible, and then adding in an actual punishment for the player using a feature of the game.
Honestly, you shouldn't even get the 2 skillpoints from the tutorial. There's just no way to determine if you are a pve'rs or a pvp'r on that one.
The idea is not to encroach, not to take away what you have; it's to add a system that helps PvEers to not get killed somewhere they'd rather not be, but want to quest in, while adding a new dimension for PvPers that's in the same vein as the Justice System for NPCs.Wow. PvP'rs don't have much in this MMO and you want to encroach on that too?
Citizens in warzones aren't combatants. They're citizens who just live there. They may have an allegiance, but they're not hostile, and there should be punishment for attacking non-hostiles. That's the entire point.
You don't get two skill points for the tutorial; you get just one for becoming a Volunteer. (I don't know of a second one.)Edited by Enodoc on July 25, 2014 9:48PMUESP: The Unofficial Elder Scrolls Pages - A collaborative source for all knowledge on the Elder Scrolls series since 1995
Join us on Discord - discord.gg/uesp2 -
smeeprocketnub19_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭No. Any player in cyrodiil has to be a legitimate target. Otherwise youll soon have 'citizens' spying and reporting on enemy troop movements.
If you really want to just pve, ask for a pve-only phase of cyrodiil where you cannot see enemy players and keeps/scrolls are not capturable.
You could have a warning come up when entering an enemy territory will be flag as a spy if you don't turn back.
There is no 'enemy territory'. All of cyrodiil is enemy territory at all times.
How do you define what is your territory? Is glademist DC territory? Well that depends on who owns it. And even if it is owned by DC, there still might be a hidden enemy camp from which AD plans to launch an attack. Yet the AD can not kill a DC 'civillian' scouting the area for the camp?
Punishing players for killing enemy faction players in a PVP zone opens a whole pandora's box of exploitation opportunities.
Each faction has a defined "Home Territory". Borders between these "territories" are only crossable at the six Milegates and three Bridges. Non-combatant Citizens should feel safest in their Home Territory so there is a higher penalty there. Killing that DC player who may or may not be scouting the camp; that's a judgement call on the part of the AD. Do you incur the fine for killing a potentially innocent guy who's just passing through his own farmyard (RP-wise), or do you potentially give up your position to a spy? That's a strategy decision for you to make. An NPC could do the same thing, in which he runs in terror to the nearest guardpost and gives away the position. If you killed him to stop him giving you away, under the Justice System, you'd incur a bounty for that as well. It's the same idea here with this Citizen player.
If you have a cumulative total of 0 AP, then you are also a Citizen. If you have a cumulative of more than 0, but a current AP of 0 because you spent it all, you go into AP debt.
(example not really how I am lol)I am a pvper, I dont care about alliance points, But I want an advantage in pvp, im in it for the kill the rush ect, so I put my char as a citizen, i then am walking around and see an enemy, he sees me and dosent attack as he dosent want the penalty applied to him, it allows me to attack first, giving me an upper hand and an advantage in that pvp encounter.
Yes I understand that this is a concern, but how would it be exploitable? If you can come up with some examples I can try to refine the idea in order to alleviate them.the issue with this is for people who dont care about alliance wars points, they would then make there char a citizen to give them a surprise advantage against the enemy. Alot of people dont care about the points instead they would make them selves citizen so you dont look at them twice and then they hamstring you, this system is to exploitable.
One solution might be...
If a Citizen Player attacks a player first, no matter if it's another Citizen player or a PvP player, all the damage from their own attack would apply to themselves. This would help to stop that exploit advantage.
That could work. Equally, since this is a system designed for people who don't want to PvP, then it could just not allow them to attack other players (aside from in self-defence).Cyrdemaceb17_ESO wrote: »I think it is possible to introduce such a system without too much exploit. So you can only be a citizen as long as you don't have any higher rank already. Higher rank removes the citizen option permanently.
Now comes the BUT: but giving players an easy way to get all the achievements in Cyrodiil negates the harder work, pvp-players had to do for getting them.
I think clearing your previous alliance rank and benefits is a reasonable trade-off for players who wish to become Citizens. This would allow anyone currently PvPing to get out of it if they wanted to, as they are essentially returned to the same state as a newly-arrived citizen.
I understand what you mean about the achievements, but that's, in my opinion, just the same difference as someone who has gained them from a fully-populated campaign versus someone who has gained them from going to one where their alliance always owns everything.
So I've been thinking about what you've been saying about not wanting penalties for killing spies, and I've come up with this:- No Penalty for killing a Citizen in the grounds of any Keep (friendly or enemy); instead, AP bonus for killing a Citizen in an enemy Keep (an obvious spy). No bonus or penalty for killing a Citizen who wanders into an area designated as a "battle" on the map (unless at a Keep, then a bonus as above).
- Standard Penalty (eg 1000 Gold bounty, lose 5000 AP) for killing a Citizen within their Home Territory.
- Reduced Penalty (eg 1000 Gold bounty, lose 1000 AP) for killing a Citizen within a town in their Home Territory. No AP loss if the town is enemy-controlled.
- Limited Penalty (eg 500 Gold bounty, lose 1000 AP) for killing a Citizen in Enemy Territory.
- Minimal Penalty (eg 500 Gold bounty, no loss of AP) for killing a Citizen in a town in Enemy Territory. AP bonus if the town is enemy-controlled.
and what happens if i go in there with no ap and no gold? are they un killable? or do i have to write the high command an i owe you note?
If you have no gold, then it's the same as if you have no gold under the Justice System. Your only option with the guards is Resist Arrest.smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »We have one zone. You continue to suggest ideas that would take that from us, while complaining about opt in world pvp.
It is a war zone, if you go there, you are a combatant. I shouldn't get punished for killing you. I don't even understand the concept of making something possible, and then adding in an actual punishment for the player using a feature of the game.
Honestly, you shouldn't even get the 2 skillpoints from the tutorial. There's just no way to determine if you are a pve'rs or a pvp'r on that one.
The idea is not encroach, not to take away what you have; it's add a system that helps PvEers to not get killed somewhere they'd rather not be, but want to quest in, while adding a new dimension for PvPers that's in the same vein as the Justice System for NPCs.Wow. PvP'rs don't have much in this MMO and you want to encroach on that too?
Citizens in warzones aren't combatants. They're citizens who just live there. They may have an allegiance, but they're not hostile, and there should be punishment for attacking non-hostiles. That's the entire point.
You don't get two skill points for the tutorial; you get just one for becoming a Volunteer. (I don't know of a second one.)
Yea you do get two skillpoints, though if you skip the tutorial, you will only see it giving you 1, but it is still 2. I can confirm this having both gone through the tutorial and skipped it.
How does this suggestion not take away from pvp'rs. You've put in place a scenario where we get severely punished potentially for killing people in a PVP ZONE. No, just no.
And no, glademist isn't the home faction's territory if it is yellow that day. It is my faction's territory, and I shouldn't get punished for killing a potential scout.
Heck, 3/4s of my pvp time is spent going deep in enemy territory and ganking people who might be out roaming or questing. It's far more fun than sieging. Why should I be punished for playing the game this way.
You don't just stumble into cyrodiil. You know where you are going when you go there. You either play by the rules of the war zone, or you don't go at all.Dear Sister, I do not spread rumors, I create them.4 -
zdkazz✭✭✭✭No. Any player in cyrodiil has to be a legitimate target. Otherwise youll soon have 'citizens' spying and reporting on enemy troop movements.
If you really want to just pve, ask for a pve-only phase of cyrodiil where you cannot see enemy players and keeps/scrolls are not capturable.
You could have a warning come up when entering an enemy territory will be flag as a spy if you don't turn back.
There is no 'enemy territory'. All of cyrodiil is enemy territory at all times.
How do you define what is your territory? Is glademist DC territory? Well that depends on who owns it. And even if it is owned by DC, there still might be a hidden enemy camp from which AD plans to launch an attack. Yet the AD can not kill a DC 'civillian' scouting the area for the camp?
Punishing players for killing enemy faction players in a PVP zone opens a whole pandora's box of exploitation opportunities.
Each faction has a defined "Home Territory". Borders between these "territories" are only crossable at the six Milegates and three Bridges. Non-combatant Citizens should feel safest in their Home Territory so there is a higher penalty there. Killing that DC player who may or may not be scouting the camp; that's a judgement call on the part of the AD. Do you incur the fine for killing a potentially innocent guy who's just passing through his own farmyard (RP-wise), or do you potentially give up your position to a spy? That's a strategy decision for you to make. An NPC could do the same thing, in which he runs in terror to the nearest guardpost and gives away the position. If you killed him to stop him giving you away, under the Justice System, you'd incur a bounty for that as well. It's the same idea here with this Citizen player.
If you have a cumulative total of 0 AP, then you are also a Citizen. If you have a cumulative of more than 0, but a current AP of 0 because you spent it all, you go into AP debt.
(example not really how I am lol)I am a pvper, I dont care about alliance points, But I want an advantage in pvp, im in it for the kill the rush ect, so I put my char as a citizen, i then am walking around and see an enemy, he sees me and dosent attack as he dosent want the penalty applied to him, it allows me to attack first, giving me an upper hand and an advantage in that pvp encounter.
Yes I understand that this is a concern, but how would it be exploitable? If you can come up with some examples I can try to refine the idea in order to alleviate them.the issue with this is for people who dont care about alliance wars points, they would then make there char a citizen to give them a surprise advantage against the enemy. Alot of people dont care about the points instead they would make them selves citizen so you dont look at them twice and then they hamstring you, this system is to exploitable.
One solution might be...
If a Citizen Player attacks a player first, no matter if it's another Citizen player or a PvP player, all the damage from their own attack would apply to themselves. This would help to stop that exploit advantage.
That could work. Equally, since this is a system designed for people who don't want to PvP, then it could just not allow them to attack other players (aside from in self-defence).Cyrdemaceb17_ESO wrote: »I think it is possible to introduce such a system without too much exploit. So you can only be a citizen as long as you don't have any higher rank already. Higher rank removes the citizen option permanently.
Now comes the BUT: but giving players an easy way to get all the achievements in Cyrodiil negates the harder work, pvp-players had to do for getting them.
I think clearing your previous alliance rank and benefits is a reasonable trade-off for players who wish to become Citizens. This would allow anyone currently PvPing to get out of it if they wanted to, as they are essentially returned to the same state as a newly-arrived citizen.
I understand what you mean about the achievements, but that's, in my opinion, just the same difference as someone who has gained them from a fully-populated campaign versus someone who has gained them from going to one where their alliance always owns everything.
So I've been thinking about what you've been saying about not wanting penalties for killing spies, and I've come up with this:- No Penalty for killing a Citizen in the grounds of any Keep (friendly or enemy); instead, AP bonus for killing a Citizen in an enemy Keep (an obvious spy). No bonus or penalty for killing a Citizen who wanders into an area designated as a "battle" on the map (unless at a Keep, then a bonus as above).
- Standard Penalty (eg 1000 Gold bounty, lose 5000 AP) for killing a Citizen within their Home Territory.
- Reduced Penalty (eg 1000 Gold bounty, lose 1000 AP) for killing a Citizen within a town in their Home Territory. No AP loss if the town is enemy-controlled.
- Limited Penalty (eg 500 Gold bounty, lose 1000 AP) for killing a Citizen in Enemy Territory.
- Minimal Penalty (eg 500 Gold bounty, no loss of AP) for killing a Citizen in a town in Enemy Territory. AP bonus if the town is enemy-controlled.
and what happens if i go in there with no ap and no gold? are they un killable? or do i have to write the high command an i owe you note?
If you have no gold, then it's the same as if you have no gold under the Justice System. Your only option with the guards is Resist Arrest.smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »We have one zone. You continue to suggest ideas that would take that from us, while complaining about opt in world pvp.
It is a war zone, if you go there, you are a combatant. I shouldn't get punished for killing you. I don't even understand the concept of making something possible, and then adding in an actual punishment for the player using a feature of the game.
Honestly, you shouldn't even get the 2 skillpoints from the tutorial. There's just no way to determine if you are a pve'rs or a pvp'r on that one.
The idea is not to encroach, not to take away what you have; it's to add a system that helps PvEers to not get killed somewhere they'd rather not be, but want to quest in, while adding a new dimension for PvPers that's in the same vein as the Justice System for NPCs.Wow. PvP'rs don't have much in this MMO and you want to encroach on that too?
Citizens in warzones aren't combatants. They're citizens who just live there. They may have an allegiance, but they're not hostile, and there should be punishment for attacking non-hostiles. That's the entire point.
You don't get two skill points for the tutorial; you get just one for becoming a Volunteer. (I don't know of a second one.)
so you are forcing players to play your play style, what if we dont want to be a citizen what if wee want to go into cyrodill as a soldier, it is after the first quest there that establishes you as a soldier. as for the ap debt thing(and gold debt) you could be punishing new players who dont know the system, they just attack this ep or dc they see,and this bars them from the leader board for a long time, it punishes new players, and is way to complicated to implement without screwing over existing players, they will never add this, so just get used to cyrodill as is.
they are adding imperial city, and if you exspect to be a part of the raiding and quests there you have best pull your weight in the war to win it.Edited by zdkazz on July 25, 2014 9:58PM4 -
Audigy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭This suggestion would open up Cyrodil for griefing. Sadly we do have a few people at this forum who hate pvp players and they would just walk in every AOE to harass those that try to pvp.3 -
smeeprocketnub19_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭This suggestion would open up Cyrodil for griefing. Sadly we do have a few people at this forum who hate pvp players and they would just walk in every AOE to harass those that try to pvp.
I suspect it would be those that cry the loudest about griefers.
I've seen it happen numerous times in other games where killing non-combatants had punishments attached.
The last pvp game I played, there was this player that would report anyone who attacked her, even if she was hit by an aoe. The other side would literally have her stand wherever they were if we were raiding their city, just so we had to worry about getting punished by the admins.Dear Sister, I do not spread rumors, I create them.1 -
Enodoc✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »Yea you do get two skillpoints, though if you skip the tutorial, you will only see it giving you 1, but it is still 2. I can confirm this having both gone through the tutorial and skipped it.
How does this suggestion not take away from pvp'rs. You've put in place a scenario where we get severely punished potentially for killing people in a PVP ZONE. No, just no.
And no, glademist isn't the home faction's territory if it is yellow that day. It is my faction's territory, and I shouldn't get punished for killing a potential scout.
Heck, 3/4s of my pvp time is spent going deep in enemy territory and ganking people who might be out roaming or questing. It's far more fun than sieging. Why should I be punished for playing the game this way.
You don't just stumble into cyrodiil. You know where you are going when you go there. You either play by the rules of the war zone, or you don't go at all.
If one comes from the promotion to Volunteer, where does the other come from? The 3 intro quests themselves don't give any, according to ESOhead.
Killing neutral, innocent, non-hostile people? You should get punished for killing neutral, non-hostile players just like you will soon be punished under the Justice System for killing non-hostile NPCs. It's a logical extension.
Glademist is a Keep, and is therefore invalid in this discussion. Keeps are excluded for being military installations; take Cheydinhal though. EPs Citizens should feel safer in Cheydinhal if it is under EP control, just like Cheydinhal NPCs. If Cheydinhal is under AD control (due to Arrius being under AD control, I think), then you have still killed a Citizen, and incur the same penalty as killing an NPC, but you don't lose APs because the town is under your control.
And that is your right to do. But since they are introducing a system whereby there is a penalty for killing non-hostile NPCs, this expands on that idea with a penalty for killing non-hostile players.
If you want to be a soldier, then you go be a soldier. Skipping the tutorial quest and talking to the Warlord directly does this, but the tutorial would have to add a couple of lines of dialogue for "I don't want to fight". As for punishing new players, it would obviously have to be clearly stated then how Citizenship works, but that's also the point of the yellow glow. The yellow glow tells you that they're not hostile. You also wouldn't know whether they're EP or DC or AD, because Citizens don't have a faction icon.so you are forcing players to play your play style, what if we dont want to be a citizen what if wee want to go into cyrodill as a soldier, it is after the first quest there that establishes you as a soldier. as for the ap debt thing(and gold debt) you could be punishing new players who dont know the system, they just attack this ep or dc they see,and this bars them from the leader board for a long time, it punishes new players, and is way to complicated to implement without screwing over existing players, they will never add this, so just get used to cyrodill as is.
they are adding imperial city, and if you exspect to be a part of the raiding and quests there you have best pull your weight in the war to win it.
I know they probably won't add it, but there's nothing wrong with discussing an idea. I don't claim to know a thing about game design, so I won't comment on how complicated it would be to implement.
I hope you aren't insinuating that I would not pull my weight in order to win access to the Imperial City. Imperial City would not allow these Citizens in anyway, as it's a military operation.
Edit to respond to Audigy:
How so would there be griefing? If I haven't covered an exploit you can think of, let me knowThis suggestion would open up Cyrodil for griefing. Sadly we do have a few people at this forum who hate pvp players and they would just walk in every AOE to harass those that try to pvp.
Edited by Enodoc on July 25, 2014 10:22PMUESP: The Unofficial Elder Scrolls Pages - A collaborative source for all knowledge on the Elder Scrolls series since 1995
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Samadhi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭...
@Samadhi could you give an example of a non-guard, not neutral NPC (merchant, common worker) who would attack if you went near them?...
Every enemy-controlled Resource node has "Worker" NPCs; their names show up as "Pact Worker" "Covenant Worker" "Dominion Worker".
The NPCs AI basically just programs them to walk around the Resource point carrying supplies from one point to another. One could argue these NPCs are "questing" in their own unique way.
If I travel in range of one of these NPCs they instantly charge over and attack me with a single-handed dagger. These NPCs have no armour of any type on (they wear civilian clothing) and carry only the most rudimentary of weapons ( a small dagger) but given even a moment of seeing the enemy player, they attack viciously as well as alert all guard NPCs at that Resource of my presence.
This type of activity is also true of the "Covenant Quartermaster" "Pact Quartermaster" "Dominion Quartermaster" merchant NPCs at each Resource and Keep.
Beyond that, no factional non-combatant NPCs exist in Cyrodiil. It is a warzone, citizens don't travel there....
Each faction has a defined "Home Territory". Borders between these "territories" are only crossable at the six Milegates and three Bridges. Non-combatant Citizens should feel safest in their Home Territory so there is a higher penalty there. Killing that DC player who may or may not be scouting the camp; that's a judgement call on the part of the AD. Do you incur the fine for killing a potentially innocent guy who's just passing through his own farmyard (RP-wise), or do you potentially give up your position to a spy? That's a strategy decision for you to make. An NPC could do the same thing, in which he runs in terror to the nearest guardpost and gives away the position. If you killed him to stop him giving you away, under the Justice System, you'd incur a bounty for that as well. It's the same idea here with this Citizen player.
...
Wait, I may have previously misunderstood your suggestion.
Are you proposing that if I kill a Dominion player, the Dominion gives its soldiers an additional bounty prize for killing me?
This might be manageable as a system. Something where I become flagged as bonus points to enemy players for killing their alliance members.
If you are proposing that my own alliance gives my own fellow soldiers a bounty against me for killing enemy alliance members, then it still makes no sense to me.
I can't see my own alliance penalizing me for killing the enemy.
I'm not traveling to enemy alliance zones and targeting innocents; I'm killing people in a warzone that aide the enemy alliance.
"If you want others to be happy, practice compassion. If you want to be happy, practice compassion." -- the 14th Dalai Lama
Wisdom is doing Now that which benefits you later.
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smeeprocketnub19_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »Yea you do get two skillpoints, though if you skip the tutorial, you will only see it giving you 1, but it is still 2. I can confirm this having both gone through the tutorial and skipped it.
How does this suggestion not take away from pvp'rs. You've put in place a scenario where we get severely punished potentially for killing people in a PVP ZONE. No, just no.
And no, glademist isn't the home faction's territory if it is yellow that day. It is my faction's territory, and I shouldn't get punished for killing a potential scout.
Heck, 3/4s of my pvp time is spent going deep in enemy territory and ganking people who might be out roaming or questing. It's far more fun than sieging. Why should I be punished for playing the game this way.
You don't just stumble into cyrodiil. You know where you are going when you go there. You either play by the rules of the war zone, or you don't go at all.
If one comes from the promotion to Volunteer, where does the other come from? The 3 intro quests themselves don't give any, according to ESOhead.
Killing neutral, innocent, non-hostile people? You should get punished for killing neutral, non-hostile players just like you will soon be punished under the Justice System for killing non-hostile NPCs. It's a logical extension.
Glademist is a Keep, and is therefore invalid in this discussion. Keeps are excluded for being military installations; take Cheydinhal though. EPs Citizens should feel safer in Cheydinhal if it is under EP control, just like Cheydinhal NPCs. If Cheydinhal is under AD control (due to Arrius being under AD control, I think), then you have still killed a Citizen, and incur the same penalty as killing an NPC, but you don't lose APs because the town is under your control.
And that is your right to do. But since they are introducing a system whereby there is a penalty for killing non-hostile NPCs, this expands on that idea with a penalty for killing non-hostile players.
If you want to be a soldier, then you go be a soldier. Skipping the tutorial quest and talking to the Warlord directly does this, but the tutorial would have to add a couple of lines of dialogue for "I don't want to fight". As for punishing new players, it would obviously have to be clearly stated then how Citizenship works, but that's also the point of the yellow glow. The yellow glow tells you that they're not hostile. You also wouldn't know whether they're EP or DC or AD, because Citizens don't have a faction icon.so you are forcing players to play your play style, what if we dont want to be a citizen what if wee want to go into cyrodill as a soldier, it is after the first quest there that establishes you as a soldier. as for the ap debt thing(and gold debt) you could be punishing new players who dont know the system, they just attack this ep or dc they see,and this bars them from the leader board for a long time, it punishes new players, and is way to complicated to implement without screwing over existing players, they will never add this, so just get used to cyrodill as is.
they are adding imperial city, and if you exspect to be a part of the raiding and quests there you have best pull your weight in the war to win it.
I know they probably won't add it, but there's nothing wrong with discussing an idea. I don't claim to know a thing about game design, so I won't comment on how complicated it would be to implement.
I hope you aren't insinuating that I would not pull my weight in order to win access to the Imperial City. Imperial City would not allow these Citizens in anyway, as it's a military operation.
the quests themselves do not award the skillpoints on turn in. But they are awarded after the turn in. You see the "Gained 1 skillpoint" message, but if you look in your skill menu, you will see you have gained 2. I think if you actually do the tutorial, you gain both of them at different times.
The point is, the majority of the game is strictly pve, we have one area currently that is pvp. GTFO of our zone. Seriously. I should not be punished for murdering enemy faction members. I'm a soldier, there is no Geneva convention currently. I will happily murder innocents if they are the enemy. There are no rules to war.
Besides the fact that, as has been stated, this would be ridiculously easy to exploit.Dear Sister, I do not spread rumors, I create them.2 -
Samadhi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭...
or we could use the system we have now, not complicate it and the people that want to pve can sneak to the areas, there really are very few gankers like me who like to hang out in towns and play the bandit roles, most are zerging and seiging...I love going deep behind enemy lines and educating small groups in the finer points of mace to face etiquette, but I cant be every where at once...
My absolute favourite memory in Cyrodiil so far was while I was spamming PvE quests in enemy territory to level a couple of my skill lines.
I was ganked by two Nightblades while riding my horse back to the quest hub.
I respawned at the closest Keep and rode back; I snuck when I got in range.
Sure enough, both players were still there.
I waited for them to mount up, then after the first one rode off I sneak-attacked the second one. I dropped him before his friend turned his horse around, then I went back into sneak.
I repositioned and sneak-attacked the second one and dropped him as well.
Revenge kills are so satisfying."If you want others to be happy, practice compassion. If you want to be happy, practice compassion." -- the 14th Dalai Lama
Wisdom is doing Now that which benefits you later.
2 -
TheBull✭✭✭✭✭
✭Not bad.Killed by Sunshine 1vX How I see it.
Killed by Early Bright - Blood Flow - Magicka NB Build
Twitch - SunshineNB
Youtube - The Redguard2 -
Enodoc✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
OK sure, that makes sense. As stated above, this bounty system does not apply to military installations (Resources, Keeps), and those NPCs are clearly hostile.Every enemy-controlled Resource node has "Worker" NPCs; their names show up as "Pact Worker" "Covenant Worker" "Dominion Worker".
The NPCs AI basically just programs them to walk around the Resource point carrying supplies from one point to another. One could argue these NPCs are "questing" in their own unique way.
If I travel in range of one of these NPCs they instantly charge over and attack me with a single-handed dagger. These NPCs have no armour of any type on (they wear civilian clothing) and carry only the most rudimentary of weapons ( a small dagger) but given even a moment of seeing the enemy player, they attack viciously as well as alert all guard NPCs at that Resource of my presence.
This type of activity is also true of the "Covenant Quartermaster" "Pact Quartermaster" "Dominion Quartermaster" merchant NPCs at each Resource and Keep.
Beyond that, no factional non-combatant NPCs exist in Cyrodiil. It is a warzone, citizens don't travel there.
Do we know for sure that there aren't, say, Covenant-backing NPCs living in Chorrol, or EP-favouring NPCs living in Cheydinhal? They're just citizens in the towns, but they may have faction allegiance....
Each faction has a defined "Home Territory". Borders between these "territories" are only crossable at the six Milegates and three Bridges. Non-combatant Citizens should feel safest in their Home Territory so there is a higher penalty there. Killing that DC player who may or may not be scouting the camp; that's a judgement call on the part of the AD. Do you incur the fine for killing a potentially innocent guy who's just passing through his own farmyard (RP-wise), or do you potentially give up your position to a spy? That's a strategy decision for you to make. An NPC could do the same thing, in which he runs in terror to the nearest guardpost and gives away the position. If you killed him to stop him giving you away, under the Justice System, you'd incur a bounty for that as well. It's the same idea here with this Citizen player.
...
Wait, I may have previously misunderstood your suggestion.
Are you proposing that if I kill a Dominion player, the Dominion gives its soldiers an additional bounty prize for killing me?
This might be manageable as a system. Something where I become flagged as bonus points to enemy players for killing their alliance members.
If you are proposing that my own alliance gives my own fellow soldiers a bounty against me for killing enemy alliance members, then it still makes no sense to me.
I can't see my own alliance penalizing me for killing the enemy.
I'm not traveling to enemy alliance zones and targeting innocents; I'm killing people in a warzone that aide the enemy alliance.
I may also not entirely understand your question.... but yes, if you kill a Dominion Citizen, then Dominion Soldiers get a bounty bonus if they kill you before you turn yourself in to a guard.
You would get a bounty for killing an "enemy" Citizen, and this bounty could be collected on by enemy Soldiers. NPC guards must enforce the law of collecting a bounty for murder of an innocent, but if they are guards of your own faction in the area you killed that citizen, then they give you half off.
Or maybe bounties should only be collectable by the other Soldier players if you kill a Citizen, and we leave the NPC guards out of it altogether...smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »Yea you do get two skillpoints, though if you skip the tutorial, you will only see it giving you 1, but it is still 2. I can confirm this having both gone through the tutorial and skipped it.
How does this suggestion not take away from pvp'rs. You've put in place a scenario where we get severely punished potentially for killing people in a PVP ZONE. No, just no.
And no, glademist isn't the home faction's territory if it is yellow that day. It is my faction's territory, and I shouldn't get punished for killing a potential scout.
Heck, 3/4s of my pvp time is spent going deep in enemy territory and ganking people who might be out roaming or questing. It's far more fun than sieging. Why should I be punished for playing the game this way.
You don't just stumble into cyrodiil. You know where you are going when you go there. You either play by the rules of the war zone, or you don't go at all.
If one comes from the promotion to Volunteer, where does the other come from? The 3 intro quests themselves don't give any, according to ESOhead.
Killing neutral, innocent, non-hostile people? You should get punished for killing neutral, non-hostile players just like you will soon be punished under the Justice System for killing non-hostile NPCs. It's a logical extension.
Glademist is a Keep, and is therefore invalid in this discussion. Keeps are excluded for being military installations; take Cheydinhal though. EPs Citizens should feel safer in Cheydinhal if it is under EP control, just like Cheydinhal NPCs. If Cheydinhal is under AD control (due to Arrius being under AD control, I think), then you have still killed a Citizen, and incur the same penalty as killing an NPC, but you don't lose APs because the town is under your control.
And that is your right to do. But since they are introducing a system whereby there is a penalty for killing non-hostile NPCs, this expands on that idea with a penalty for killing non-hostile players.
If you want to be a soldier, then you go be a soldier. Skipping the tutorial quest and talking to the Warlord directly does this, but the tutorial would have to add a couple of lines of dialogue for "I don't want to fight". As for punishing new players, it would obviously have to be clearly stated then how Citizenship works, but that's also the point of the yellow glow. The yellow glow tells you that they're not hostile. You also wouldn't know whether they're EP or DC or AD, because Citizens don't have a faction icon.so you are forcing players to play your play style, what if we dont want to be a citizen what if wee want to go into cyrodill as a soldier, it is after the first quest there that establishes you as a soldier. as for the ap debt thing(and gold debt) you could be punishing new players who dont know the system, they just attack this ep or dc they see,and this bars them from the leader board for a long time, it punishes new players, and is way to complicated to implement without screwing over existing players, they will never add this, so just get used to cyrodill as is.
they are adding imperial city, and if you exspect to be a part of the raiding and quests there you have best pull your weight in the war to win it.
I know they probably won't add it, but there's nothing wrong with discussing an idea. I don't claim to know a thing about game design, so I won't comment on how complicated it would be to implement.
I hope you aren't insinuating that I would not pull my weight in order to win access to the Imperial City. Imperial City would not allow these Citizens in anyway, as it's a military operation.
the quests themselves do not award the skillpoints on turn in. But they are awarded after the turn in. You see the "Gained 1 skillpoint" message, but if you look in your skill menu, you will see you have gained 2. I think if you actually do the tutorial, you gain both of them at different times.
The point is, the majority of the game is strictly pve, we have one area currently that is pvp. GTFO of our zone. Seriously. I should not be punished for murdering enemy faction members. I'm a soldier, there is no Geneva convention currently. I will happily murder innocents if they are the enemy. There are no rules to war.
Besides the fact that, as has been stated, this would be ridiculously easy to exploit.
I will need to have a look at where they actually come from. I don't understand why you'd get skill points for "nothing". (Was that the point you were trying to make earlier?)
I thought maybe this system would be a bit of an interesting addition for the PvPers, like the Justice System adds a new element for PvEers. I didn't expect it to be taken quite so negatively by some. How do we know that there is no Geneva convention? The alliances may have decided independently that it was dishonourable to kill an innocent in a warzone.
I'm trying to address the exploits as they are mentioned. Do you have any more that you are concerned with?Edited by Enodoc on July 25, 2014 10:47PMUESP: The Unofficial Elder Scrolls Pages - A collaborative source for all knowledge on the Elder Scrolls series since 1995
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Samadhi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭...
Do we know for sure that there aren't, say, Covenant-backing NPCs living in Chorrol, or EP-favouring NPCs living in Cheydinhal? They're just citizens in the towns, but they may have faction allegiance.
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I did a quest where I was required to burn a Dominion flag because one of the Cyrodiil Citizens wanted to use it to declare his town's allegiance to the Dominion.
I was asked to burn the flag by a fellow town citizen who stated that declaring allegiance would make the whole town's population targets of the Covenant and Pact....
You would get a bounty for killing an "enemy" Citizen, and this bounty could be collected on by enemy Soldiers. NPC guards must enforce the law of collecting a bounty for murder of an innocent, but if they are guards of your own faction in the area you killed that citizen, then they give you half off.
Or maybe bounties should only be collectable by the other Soldier players if you kill a Citizen, and we leave the NPC guards out of it altogether...
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This idea can be make sense if I generate a bounty only for enemy alliance players.
It doesn't make sense if my alliance punishes me for killing enemy alliance members though.
The only way I would accept that sort of penalization is if the players would become Cyrodiil citizens, and completely abandon all previous ties to their old alliance; this would have to make them completely unable to go back to their own alliance zones and they would be strictly limited to adventuring on Cyrodiil map and no other locations."If you want others to be happy, practice compassion. If you want to be happy, practice compassion." -- the 14th Dalai Lama
Wisdom is doing Now that which benefits you later.
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smeeprocketnub19_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
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OK sure, that makes sense. As stated above, this bounty system does not apply to military installations (Resources, Keeps), and those NPCs are clearly hostile.Every enemy-controlled Resource node has "Worker" NPCs; their names show up as "Pact Worker" "Covenant Worker" "Dominion Worker".
The NPCs AI basically just programs them to walk around the Resource point carrying supplies from one point to another. One could argue these NPCs are "questing" in their own unique way.
If I travel in range of one of these NPCs they instantly charge over and attack me with a single-handed dagger. These NPCs have no armour of any type on (they wear civilian clothing) and carry only the most rudimentary of weapons ( a small dagger) but given even a moment of seeing the enemy player, they attack viciously as well as alert all guard NPCs at that Resource of my presence.
This type of activity is also true of the "Covenant Quartermaster" "Pact Quartermaster" "Dominion Quartermaster" merchant NPCs at each Resource and Keep.
Beyond that, no factional non-combatant NPCs exist in Cyrodiil. It is a warzone, citizens don't travel there.
Do we know for sure that there aren't, say, Covenant-backing NPCs living in Chorrol, or EP-favouring NPCs living in Cheydinhal? They're just citizens in the towns, but they may have faction allegiance....
Each faction has a defined "Home Territory". Borders between these "territories" are only crossable at the six Milegates and three Bridges. Non-combatant Citizens should feel safest in their Home Territory so there is a higher penalty there. Killing that DC player who may or may not be scouting the camp; that's a judgement call on the part of the AD. Do you incur the fine for killing a potentially innocent guy who's just passing through his own farmyard (RP-wise), or do you potentially give up your position to a spy? That's a strategy decision for you to make. An NPC could do the same thing, in which he runs in terror to the nearest guardpost and gives away the position. If you killed him to stop him giving you away, under the Justice System, you'd incur a bounty for that as well. It's the same idea here with this Citizen player.
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Wait, I may have previously misunderstood your suggestion.
Are you proposing that if I kill a Dominion player, the Dominion gives its soldiers an additional bounty prize for killing me?
This might be manageable as a system. Something where I become flagged as bonus points to enemy players for killing their alliance members.
If you are proposing that my own alliance gives my own fellow soldiers a bounty against me for killing enemy alliance members, then it still makes no sense to me.
I can't see my own alliance penalizing me for killing the enemy.
I'm not traveling to enemy alliance zones and targeting innocents; I'm killing people in a warzone that aide the enemy alliance.
I may also not entirely understand your question.... but yes, if you kill a Dominion Citizen, then Dominion Soldiers get a bounty bonus if they kill you before you turn yourself in to a guard.
You would get a bounty for killing an "enemy" Citizen, and this bounty could be collected on by enemy Soldiers. NPC guards must enforce the law of collecting a bounty for murder of an innocent, but if they are guards of your own faction in the area you killed that citizen, then they give you half off.
Or maybe bounties should only be collectable by the other Soldier players if you kill a Citizen, and we leave the NPC guards out of it altogether...smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »Yea you do get two skillpoints, though if you skip the tutorial, you will only see it giving you 1, but it is still 2. I can confirm this having both gone through the tutorial and skipped it.
How does this suggestion not take away from pvp'rs. You've put in place a scenario where we get severely punished potentially for killing people in a PVP ZONE. No, just no.
And no, glademist isn't the home faction's territory if it is yellow that day. It is my faction's territory, and I shouldn't get punished for killing a potential scout.
Heck, 3/4s of my pvp time is spent going deep in enemy territory and ganking people who might be out roaming or questing. It's far more fun than sieging. Why should I be punished for playing the game this way.
You don't just stumble into cyrodiil. You know where you are going when you go there. You either play by the rules of the war zone, or you don't go at all.
If one comes from the promotion to Volunteer, where does the other come from? The 3 intro quests themselves don't give any, according to ESOhead.
Killing neutral, innocent, non-hostile people? You should get punished for killing neutral, non-hostile players just like you will soon be punished under the Justice System for killing non-hostile NPCs. It's a logical extension.
Glademist is a Keep, and is therefore invalid in this discussion. Keeps are excluded for being military installations; take Cheydinhal though. EPs Citizens should feel safer in Cheydinhal if it is under EP control, just like Cheydinhal NPCs. If Cheydinhal is under AD control (due to Arrius being under AD control, I think), then you have still killed a Citizen, and incur the same penalty as killing an NPC, but you don't lose APs because the town is under your control.
And that is your right to do. But since they are introducing a system whereby there is a penalty for killing non-hostile NPCs, this expands on that idea with a penalty for killing non-hostile players.
If you want to be a soldier, then you go be a soldier. Skipping the tutorial quest and talking to the Warlord directly does this, but the tutorial would have to add a couple of lines of dialogue for "I don't want to fight". As for punishing new players, it would obviously have to be clearly stated then how Citizenship works, but that's also the point of the yellow glow. The yellow glow tells you that they're not hostile. You also wouldn't know whether they're EP or DC or AD, because Citizens don't have a faction icon.so you are forcing players to play your play style, what if we dont want to be a citizen what if wee want to go into cyrodill as a soldier, it is after the first quest there that establishes you as a soldier. as for the ap debt thing(and gold debt) you could be punishing new players who dont know the system, they just attack this ep or dc they see,and this bars them from the leader board for a long time, it punishes new players, and is way to complicated to implement without screwing over existing players, they will never add this, so just get used to cyrodill as is.
they are adding imperial city, and if you exspect to be a part of the raiding and quests there you have best pull your weight in the war to win it.
I know they probably won't add it, but there's nothing wrong with discussing an idea. I don't claim to know a thing about game design, so I won't comment on how complicated it would be to implement.
I hope you aren't insinuating that I would not pull my weight in order to win access to the Imperial City. Imperial City would not allow these Citizens in anyway, as it's a military operation.
the quests themselves do not award the skillpoints on turn in. But they are awarded after the turn in. You see the "Gained 1 skillpoint" message, but if you look in your skill menu, you will see you have gained 2. I think if you actually do the tutorial, you gain both of them at different times.
The point is, the majority of the game is strictly pve, we have one area currently that is pvp. GTFO of our zone. Seriously. I should not be punished for murdering enemy faction members. I'm a soldier, there is no Geneva convention currently. I will happily murder innocents if they are the enemy. There are no rules to war.
Besides the fact that, as has been stated, this would be ridiculously easy to exploit.
I will need to have a look at where they actually come from. I don't understand why you'd get skill points for "nothing". (Was that the point you were trying to make earlier?)
I thought maybe this system would be a bit of an interesting addition for the PvPers, like the Justice System adds a new element for PvEers. I didn't expect it to be taken quite so negatively by some. How do we know that there is no Geneva convention? The alliances may have decided independently that it was dishonourable to kill an innocent in a warzone.
I'm trying to address the exploits as they are mentioned. Do you have any more that you are concerned with?
you get skillpoints for doing the tutorial, they just don't get officially rewarded by the quest. You can opt to skip the tutorial and still get them. It's probably to encourage people to do the tutorial so they know what they are doing in sieges. And if it is an alt you can just say no thanks and get the reward anyway.
It is definitely not looked down upon to kill innocent enemy faction members per the rules of war. It would be against the spirit of TES to have that be the case. Why on earth would my faction guards give a damn if I kill some EP citizen. I'm fighting the good fight. Less EP citizens = less opposition. And the faction npcs that take the fight to enemy territories are pretty dark in their behavior (too bad I can't help them)
Of course it is being taken negatively! How else could it be taken? You have the majority of the game and then you suggest you want our part too and propose a punishment for us for playing the game as intended.
I have had to deal with being called a griefer and a sociopath because I like to pvp. You think the people who called me that and expressed severe disgust for pvp wouldn't run into any enemy battle they could to get me punished.
Furthermore, why should they get what I do not have in a zone designed for my playstyle? Pve exists in Cyrodiil to flesh out the zone and give it depth. Not to make it a haven for carebears.Dear Sister, I do not spread rumors, I create them.3 -
tinythinker✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭or we could use the system we have now, not complicate it and the people that want to pve can sneak to the areas, there really are very few gankers like me who like to hang out in towns and play the bandit roles, most are zerging and seiging...I love going deep behind enemy lines and educating small groups in the finer points of mace to face etiquette, but I cant be every where at once...
Yes.
It's a PvP zone.
The PvE stuff adds more to do in Cyrodiil for those who want to avoid or who have finished/get bored with the main story. If people want to do the PvE activities in Cyrodiil, that's a risk they need to be willing to take. Go to a low pop server at odd hours to avoid most of the danger, and if you want more security, take a friend or two.
I actually do engage in PvP, but when questing in Cyrodiil with my two developed characters I went at times like early Sunday morning and snuck in and out of the towns that serve as quest hubs. Everywhere else in Tamriel is currently open to those who only want PvE. Having one zone where you are a potential target isn't asking too much.
As for the potential problems of having civilians in Cyrodiil, the spying was already mentioned. And it can be an issue. There is also the population lock for each campaign; imagine having to wait in a long queue because a bunch of people want to earn the Tamriel Hero achievement or find some skyshards. This already happens, but the risk of running into enemy troops tempers who, how many, and how often this occurs. And as it is, those folks can join one of the groups/guilds that regularly travels around doing such activities already.
I don't blame anyone for wanting to avoid any possibility of a PvP encounter, but that choices come with consequences. Lack of access to the rewards of questing in an active war zone would be one of them.
Edited by tinythinker on July 25, 2014 11:07PM❤Experienced, new, returner?❤ Help keep ESO's community strong ᕙ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ᕗ -- share what you love about the game, offer constructive feedback, and make friends.ʕ·ᴥ·ʔ
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Ah now that's interesting. I haven't done that quest yet, but it does suggest that declaration of allegiance, even by a citizen, would be grounds for murder.I did a quest where I was required to burn a Dominion flag because one of the Cyrodiil Citizens wanted to use it to declare his town's allegiance to the Dominion.
I was asked to burn the flag by a fellow town citizen who stated that declaring allegiance would make the whole town's population targets of the Covenant and Pact.
OK sure, let's ditch the guard NPCs collecting bounties then. So let's say, if a DC Citizen is killed in the DC Home Territory, that's a bounty of 1500 collectable by DC Soldiers. If a DC Citizen is killed by an EP in the EP Home Territory, that's a bounty of 500 collectable by DC Soldiers. And if a DC Citizen is killed by an EP in the AD Home Territory, that's a bounty of 1000 collectable by DC Soldiers. Keep the AP penalties as before though, so that's a large loss for killing a Citizen within their Home Territory, as High Command doesn't like killing innocents in the countryside for no reason, a small loss for killing a Citizen within a town in their Home Territory, as High Command doesn't like you killing innocents, but gives a waiver as they may be spying on you in town. (No AP loss if the town is controlled by your faction.) Small loss for killing a Citizen in the countryside in Enemy Territory, as they were seemingly doing nothing wrong, but may have been spying. No loss for killing a Citizen in a town in Enemy Territory. AP bonus if the town is enemy-controlled because they were a spy.This idea can be make sense if I generate a bounty only for enemy alliance players.
It doesn't make sense if my alliance punishes me for killing enemy alliance members though.
The only way I would accept that sort of penalization is if the players would become Cyrodiil citizens, and completely abandon all previous ties to their old alliance; this would have to make them completely unable to go back to their own alliance zones and they would be strictly limited to adventuring on Cyrodiil map and no other locations.
I like the idea of becoming a "Cyrodiil Citizen" actually; give them their own /zone chat channel, etc. There's no real need to restrict them from going back to their alliance zones though (although I expect you have a good reason for suggesting it... ) UESP: The Unofficial Elder Scrolls Pages - A collaborative source for all knowledge on the Elder Scrolls series since 1995
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