Use of the "Alliance War Citizen" rank for PvE players in PvP

smeeprocketnub19_ESO

Enodoc wrote: »

Samadhi wrote: »

I did a quest where I was required to burn a Dominion flag because one of the Cyrodiil Citizens wanted to use it to declare his town's allegiance to the Dominion.
I was asked to burn the flag by a fellow town citizen who stated that declaring allegiance would make the whole town's population targets of the Covenant and Pact.

Ah now that's interesting. I haven't done that quest yet, but it does suggest that declaration of allegiance, even by a citizen, would be grounds for murder.

Samadhi wrote: »

This idea can be make sense if I generate a bounty only for enemy alliance players.
It doesn't make sense if my alliance punishes me for killing enemy alliance members though.

The only way I would accept that sort of penalization is if the players would become Cyrodiil citizens, and completely abandon all previous ties to their old alliance; this would have to make them completely unable to go back to their own alliance zones and they would be strictly limited to adventuring on Cyrodiil map and no other locations.

OK sure, let's ditch the guard NPCs collecting bounties then. So let's say, if a DC Citizen is killed in the DC Home Territory, that's a bounty of 1500 collectable by DC Soldiers. If a DC Citizen is killed by an EP in the EP Home Territory, that's a bounty of 500 collectable by DC Soldiers. And if a DC Citizen is killed by an EP in the AD Home Territory, that's a bounty of 1000 collectable by DC Soldiers. Keep the AP penalties as before though, so that's a large loss for killing a Citizen within their Home Territory, as High Command doesn't like killing innocents in the countryside for no reason, a small loss for killing a Citizen within a town in their Home Territory, as High Command doesn't like you killing innocents, but gives a waiver as they may be spying on you in town. (No AP loss if the town is controlled by your faction.) Small loss for killing a Citizen in the countryside in Enemy Territory, as they were seemingly doing nothing wrong, but may have been spying. No loss for killing a Citizen in a town in Enemy Territory. AP bonus if the town is enemy-controlled because they were a spy.

I like the idea of becoming a "Cyrodiil Citizen" actually; give them their own /zone chat channel, etc. There's no real need to restrict them from going back to their alliance zones though (although I expect you have a good reason for suggesting it... )

Why does high command care if I kill citizens? They wandered onto a warzone. Our faction uses all manner of underhanded and cruel tactics within enemy territory. Why does "high command" suddenly decide that things need to be honorable on the actual battle field?

Why wouldn't everyone just become a citizen of cyrodiil if they could go back to their alliance?

UrQuan

Daragon wrote: »

Think its a bad idea. I understand the want of pve'ers to get the achievements and skyshards from cyrodil but there are ways to do that with minimal risks and it would negate or trivialize the work and risk pvp'ers had to put in.

Hmm, yeah I think this is the other thing that's been nagging at the back of my brain about this idea. I've barely spent any time running around Cyrodil risking my neck in a war zone to get skyshards and other cool stuff (pretty much all I've done is a couple of scouting missions and grabbing a few of the more easily-collected skyshards). Other people have. It's not right for me to suddenly have a much easier time doing all of that stuff - it cheapens the experience of the PVPers.

Enodoc

smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »

Of course it is being taken negatively! How else could it be taken? You have the majority of the game and then you suggest you want our part too and propose a punishment for us for playing the game as intended.

I have had to deal with being called a griefer and a sociopath because I like to pvp. You think the people who called me that and expressed severe disgust for pvp wouldn't run into any enemy battle they could to get me punished.

Furthermore, why should they get what I do not have in a zone designed for my playstyle? Pve exists in Cyrodiil to flesh out the zone and give it depth. Not to make it a haven for carebears.

What I mean is, I wasn't prepared for outright negativity. I thought I'd presented a case that would garner discussion, including disagreements to the idea because [reasons]. But the "get out of my zone", "taking away from the PvP experience" comments I have had I did not construe as constructive because there was no reasoning behind them.
However I am seeing the reasoning now, that being that "enemy citizens" are not innocent and should not be treated as such. Whereas I was seeing all citizens, regardless of their background alliance, as essentially "neutral".

I addressed the griefing-in-battle concern by saying that this system would provide no penalty for killing a Citizen in the middle of a battle. It's the Citizen's own fault if they wander into the middle of an active battleground.

I don't know what a carebear is, although it's a term I've seen thrown around the forums a lot, usually in seeming criticism.

smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »

Why does high command care if I kill citizens? They wandered onto a warzone. Our faction uses all manner of underhanded and cruel tactics within enemy territory. Why does "high command" suddenly decide that things need to be honorable on the actual battle field?

Why wouldn't everyone just become a citizen of cyrodiil if they could go back to their alliance?

Not all of Cyrodiil is a warzone all the time. Some of it is just NPC citizens trying to go about their lives without being involved in the conflict. Won't the Justice System include penalties for killing these neutral citizen NPCs? (This is the same idea I would like to apply to PvEers who want it.)

Everyone wouldn't because some (many) people want to do the PvP, or to PvE with the dangers of PvP (like me).

Ur-Quan wrote: »

Daragon wrote: »

Think its a bad idea. I understand the want of pve'ers to get the achievements and skyshards from cyrodil but there are ways to do that with minimal risks and it would negate or trivialize the work and risk pvp'ers had to put in.

Hmm, yeah I think this is the other thing that's been nagging at the back of my brain about this idea. I've barely spent any time running around Cyrodil risking my neck in a war zone to get skyshards and other cool stuff (pretty much all I've done is a couple of scouting missions and grabbing a few of the more easily-collected skyshards). Other people have. It's not right for me to suddenly have a much easier time doing all of that stuff - it cheapens the experience of the PVPers.

And that is one of the main reasons why it may never happen. Doesn't prevent discussion of the idea though. :P

Anastasia

Dilly_Waffles wrote: »

Has anyone yet thought of the lag?

I play on EU so I can't talk for those in US, but at peak times in the general lag can be felt just walking from place to place at times. Then when battles commence of, say, 30v30, with oils and meatbags etc. the spikes can become unbearable.

The last thing we need is for 100 more people to be in Cyrodiil, especially when they're not interacting with the war at all and just doing their own thing.

I know this may seem PvP biased, but think about it. It'll be everyone getting the lag. Meaning thatyou're doing PvE, you've moved all the way to the other side of the map for a dungeon, game locks up, you die a PvE death, sent back to your gate.

---

Yup. ;o/

Anastasia

smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »

Yea you do get two skillpoints, though if you skip the tutorial, you will only see it giving you 1, but it is still 2. I can confirm this having both gone through the tutorial and skipped it.

How does this suggestion not take away from pvp'rs. You've put in place a scenario where we get severely punished potentially for killing people in a PVP ZONE. No, just no.

And no, glademist isn't the home faction's territory if it is yellow that day. It is my faction's territory, and I shouldn't get punished for killing a potential scout.

Heck, 3/4s of my pvp time is spent going deep in enemy territory and ganking people who might be out roaming or questing. It's far more fun than sieging. Why should I be punished for playing the game this way.

You don't just stumble into cyrodiil. You know where you are going when you go there. You either play by the rules of the war zone, or you don't go at all.

If one comes from the promotion to Volunteer, where does the other come from? The 3 intro quests themselves don't give any, according to ESOhead.

Killing neutral, innocent, non-hostile people? You should get punished for killing neutral, non-hostile players just like you will soon be punished under the Justice System for killing non-hostile NPCs. It's a logical extension.

Glademist is a Keep, and is therefore invalid in this discussion. Keeps are excluded for being military installations; take Cheydinhal though. EPs Citizens should feel safer in Cheydinhal if it is under EP control, just like Cheydinhal NPCs. If Cheydinhal is under AD control (due to Arrius being under AD control, I think), then you have still killed a Citizen, and incur the same penalty as killing an NPC, but you don't lose APs because the town is under your control.

And that is your right to do. But since they are introducing a system whereby there is a penalty for killing non-hostile NPCs, this expands on that idea with a penalty for killing non-hostile players.

zdkazz wrote: »

so you are forcing players to play your play style, what if we dont want to be a citizen what if wee want to go into cyrodill as a soldier, it is after the first quest there that establishes you as a soldier. as for the ap debt thing(and gold debt) you could be punishing new players who dont know the system, they just attack this ep or dc they see,and this bars them from the leader board for a long time, it punishes new players, and is way to complicated to implement without screwing over existing players, they will never add this, so just get used to cyrodill as is.
they are adding imperial city, and if you exspect to be a part of the raiding and quests there you have best pull your weight in the war to win it.

If you want to be a soldier, then you go be a soldier. Skipping the tutorial quest and talking to the Warlord directly does this, but the tutorial would have to add a couple of lines of dialogue for "I don't want to fight". As for punishing new players, it would obviously have to be clearly stated then how Citizenship works, but that's also the point of the yellow glow. The yellow glow tells you that they're not hostile. You also wouldn't know whether they're EP or DC or AD, because Citizens don't have a faction icon.

I know they probably won't add it, but there's nothing wrong with discussing an idea. I don't claim to know a thing about game design, so I won't comment on how complicated it would be to implement.

I hope you aren't insinuating that I would not pull my weight in order to win access to the Imperial City. Imperial City would not allow these Citizens in anyway, as it's a military operation.

the quests themselves do not award the skillpoints on turn in. But they are awarded after the turn in. You see the "Gained 1 skillpoint" message, but if you look in your skill menu, you will see you have gained 2. I think if you actually do the tutorial, you gain both of them at different times.


The point is, the majority of the game is strictly pve, we have one area currently that is pvp. GTFO of our zone. Seriously. I should not be punished for murdering enemy faction members. I'm a soldier, there is no Geneva convention currently. I will happily murder innocents if they are the enemy. There are no rules to war.

Besides the fact that, as has been stated, this would be ridiculously easy to exploit.

---

Out-frigging-standing smeeprocketnub19. Gonna be some FUN come Imperial City!

*Sarcasm on:

Argggh...here's hoping all the pro-solo-all-the-time-through-all-content don't migrate over to this thread and start gettin' involved in this call to action. The sewers will end up having armed npc Imperial Guards escorting every individual player through helping to fight both the daedra AND PvP flagged faction warriors to 'protect' the solo PvE'rs right to be fully involved and partake of I.C. goodness, but NOT be FORCED to involve themselves in any of that dirty, distasteful 'PvP' stuff. o-0

Snit

If you "don't want to participate in PvP," then don't. 95% of the content is already PvE-only.

Cyrodil is the only PvP zone. It contains some PvE content, but accessing that is supposed to contain some risk. It's not just 45 free skyshards and some repeatable quests -- it's all that content embedded in a hostile area. That's a big part of what makes it great. It shouldn't be defanged.

tinythinker

Snit wrote: »

If you "don't want to participate in PvP," then don't. 95% of the content is already PvE-only.

Cyrodil is the only PvP zone. It contains some PvE content, but accessing that is supposed to contain some risk. It's not just 45 free skyshards and some repeatable quests -- it's all that content embedded in a hostile area. That's a big part of what makes it great.

(*)

zdkazz

Samadhi wrote: »

zdkazz wrote: »

...

or we could use the system we have now, not complicate it and the people that want to pve can sneak to the areas, there really are very few gankers like me who like to hang out in towns and play the bandit roles, most are zerging and seiging...I love going deep behind enemy lines and educating small groups in the finer points of mace to face etiquette, but I cant be every where at once...

My absolute favourite memory in Cyrodiil so far was while I was spamming PvE quests in enemy territory to level a couple of my skill lines.
I was ganked by two Nightblades while riding my horse back to the quest hub.
I respawned at the closest Keep and rode back; I snuck when I got in range.
Sure enough, both players were still there.

I waited for them to mount up, then after the first one rode off I sneak-attacked the second one. I dropped him before his friend turned his horse around, then I went back into sneak.
I repositioned and sneak-attacked the second one and dropped him as well.

Revenge kills are so satisfying.

yes yes they are,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Len4BkvrNnc

zdkazz

Samadhi wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

...

Do we know for sure that there aren't, say, Covenant-backing NPCs living in Chorrol, or EP-favouring NPCs living in Cheydinhal? They're just citizens in the towns, but they may have faction allegiance.

...

I did a quest where I was required to burn a Dominion flag because one of the Cyrodiil Citizens wanted to use it to declare his town's allegiance to the Dominion.
I was asked to burn the flag by a fellow town citizen who stated that declaring allegiance would make the whole town's population targets of the Covenant and Pact.

Enodoc wrote: »

...
You would get a bounty for killing an "enemy" Citizen, and this bounty could be collected on by enemy Soldiers. NPC guards must enforce the law of collecting a bounty for murder of an innocent, but if they are guards of your own faction in the area you killed that citizen, then they give you half off.

Or maybe bounties should only be collectable by the other Soldier players if you kill a Citizen, and we leave the NPC guards out of it altogether...

...

This idea can be make sense if I generate a bounty only for enemy alliance players.
It doesn't make sense if my alliance punishes me for killing enemy alliance members though.

The only way I would accept that sort of penalization is if the players would become Cyrodiil citizens, and completely abandon all previous ties to their old alliance; this would have to make them completely unable to go back to their own alliance zones and they would be strictly limited to adventuring on Cyrodiil map and no other locations.

ah yes, but you can also choose to give him back his grandpa's flag, which makes the argonian hostile to you,

Zabus

No, this is a terrible idea. It's Cyrodiil, you're in a warzone. If you want to PvE you get your stuff done on a dead server while you can or you run the risk of getting ganked.

This will only lead to everyone placing spies all over the place by having people set themselves as citizens.

Dilly_Waffles

Contrary to their beliefs, PvE players do not stand on their own golden pedestal and get special treatment. Cyrodiil is a war zone and actually how many opposite alliance mobs have you killed just by questing? Thought so. Everyone is a soldier and will be treated as such in Cyrodiil.

I thought after the nerfs to Vet content that PvE players would be crying out for a bit of a challenge. For christ's sake there was enough giving out about the nerfs and it being too easy. You're challenge is here, Cyrodiil, a real challenge. But yet they're still whinging and now want to be given a special status.

PvP is quite enjoyable right now. We have only 1 area for PvP. If PvE players gain these special titles then they do nothing but negatively affect those of us that solely play PvP, in our only PvP area.

Stop crying and deal with it.