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Is keeping the majority happy more important than balance? A personal rant
Iam_Epiphany
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The number of people running Twilights Embrace/Willows Path light armour is much, much higher than any other set combination.
I was happy to see ZOS changing the set bonuses to encourage a variety of sets appearing in player's builds.
A lot of people complained about the change to this armour set just because they didn't want to make a new armour set, no other reason. Nothing to do with the success of the game.
Fixes for stamina builds are also few and far between, it seems to me that any changes which will help stamina builds (such as these set changes) are getting veto'd by the majority of magicka build users for personal reasons.
Even the spellcrafting system is worrying for me, as someone who wants to play a stamina based DPS character but has been denied the chance as nobody wanted to play difficult content with me when I had that setup.
Why are we announcing new content to make magicka builds even more popular than they are already?
EDIT: My goal on this game was to play a stamina based nightblade werewolf DPS.
Feel my pain.
Edited by Iam_Epiphany on July 22, 2014 12:31PM I was happy to see ZOS changing the set bonuses to encourage a variety of sets appearing in player's builds.
A lot of people complained about the change to this armour set just because they didn't want to make a new armour set, no other reason. Nothing to do with the success of the game.
Fixes for stamina builds are also few and far between, it seems to me that any changes which will help stamina builds (such as these set changes) are getting veto'd by the majority of magicka build users for personal reasons.
Even the spellcrafting system is worrying for me, as someone who wants to play a stamina based DPS character but has been denied the chance as nobody wanted to play difficult content with me when I had that setup.
Why are we announcing new content to make magicka builds even more popular than they are already?
EDIT: My goal on this game was to play a stamina based nightblade werewolf DPS.
Feel my pain.
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Kego✭✭✭✭I 100% agree with you.
It's a shame, Zenimax gave in with the Set changes.
I just wonder, what would happen if in Update 1.4 MeleeDMG would outperform Magicka DMG by ~400DPS? Than the crying crowd would have to play a "gimped" build or craft complete new Sets.
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Ninnghizhidda✭✭✭✭As said before... "Elder Mages Online", and despite a few minor "fixes", the "Harry Potters" will reign supreme for quite some time. Nothing near enough seems to be planned for anyone wishing to be a "warrior".
Not even saying to be "equal" with the top nuker mages out there, but at least "average". For the nth time... ESO is a fine game, but totally biased.
And also no one is asking for "melees' to become the new "hot stuff". Perhaps to be somewhat equal and viable, just maybe? Like in so many other MMOs, that neither offer that much diversity as ESO, nor claimed the infamous "play as / what you want", yet manage a much better balance between classes / roles.6 -
Kego✭✭✭✭And it could be so easy. Remove Concentration on Light Armor and change circle of Life from Resto Staff.
Remove the -5% max. Magicka of Mage Light (Inner Light) and bring in an +20% chance of getting a crit. Hit from Enemies, (Like the NB Mark Target) or reduce DMG Done by 20% for 20% more Crit.
those two changes and Magicka vs Stamina would be way more balanced.Edited by Kego on July 22, 2014 11:38AM3 -
Iam_Epiphany✭✭✭We're 4 months into the game now and I'm getting pretty sick of not being able to 'play how you want'. Magicka has been immensely overpowered compared to Stamina since release.3
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Maverick827✭✭✭✭✭
✭I think not setting a precedent of arbitrarily destroying your player's gear with no plans of compensation is more healthy for the game than fixing the imaginary imbalance between stamina and magicka set bonuses.Edited by Maverick827 on July 22, 2014 2:39PM10 -
Merrak✭✭✭Maverick827 wrote: »I think not setting a precedent of arbitrarily destroying your player's gear with no plans of compensation is more healthy for the game than fixing the imaginary imbalance between stamina and magicka set bonuses.
I'm with Mav here, but with the side note of its better to buff a class or spec than to nerf all the rest. Do things need adjusted? Absolutely. I think it's silly that I can tank better in Light armor than Heavy, but I don't want to see them destroy Light armor builds in favor of it.
Edited by Merrak on July 22, 2014 4:56PMMerrak | Templar Main
The Descendants | NA Server | Daggerfall Covenant4 -
Iam_Epiphany✭✭✭l understand your point Merrak but I think it'd be easier to balance a nerf for light armour than a buff for medium and heavy.
I understand that it would annoy less people though.2 -
lathbury✭✭✭✭✭
✭I went for the exact same build as the op nb/dw/ww. It sucks not as much as it did but still by comparison to my nightstick build I'm running ATM.
The stamina magicka balance is still off but Zeni are aware. The issue seems to be the speed at which it is being addressed. I didn't agree with the planned changes to the twilights and willows set. The reasons for this are obv to me 1) it sets a bad precedent 2) ppl have put a lot of investment into them with mats and enchants etc. the proposed changes weren't slight nerfs they completely changed their purpose.
3) purely selfish but with my nb unable to melee properly this would have broken the only viable nb build.
Reducing or removing mark targets debuff and the same with siphoning strikes would help. Along with sorting sets like hundings.
Then really looking at things like haste and shades and the other sub par skills. Melee characters should do more dps as they are susceptible to more damage and have more down time.
This is only half the problem though a lot of bosses have mechanics that make melee impossible.Edited by lathbury on July 29, 2014 6:41AM2 -
Andferne✭✭✭Honestly in my opinion the amount of Crit you can get from Inner Light should be changed to 10%.Edited by Andferne on July 22, 2014 8:29PM1 -
DeLindsay✭✭✭✭✭
✭All they did is make a balance path to Crafted sets and so many people are losing their minds. Game balancing never ,ever, EVER ends. It's ongoing until the servers are shut down for good. If you can't adapt to a simple change like this then maybe playing MMO's is not your cup of tea.7 -
Andferne✭✭✭
Maybe I am missing something but the last time I checked, there was no ability you can slot to give you a HUGE Crit increase to Weapons.Maverick827 wrote: »Then the amount of weapon crit obtained from medium armor or from set bonuses would have to be decreased by 10% as well.
Look at the bonuses you can get From Sets, Traits, Mundus, etc. All of these pale in comparison to the amount of Crit you get for Inner Light (And you are getting more than just a Crit boost with this ability).
Again IMO, either bring it down to be more in line with those (Dropping it from whopping 20% to a more balanced 10%), or have the ability Inner Light work for all Critical chance, not just spell. Third option to try and make Crit builds more balanced between spell and weapon, give the Fighters Guild an ability similar to Mage Light that improves just Weapon crit chance plus some other passive ability.2 -
Jaxom✭✭✭✭
Maybe I am missing something but the last time I checked, there was no ability you can slot to give you a HUGE Crit increase to Weapons.Maverick827 wrote: »Then the amount of weapon crit obtained from medium armor or from set bonuses would have to be decreased by 10% as well.
Look at the bonuses you can get From Sets, Traits, Mundus, etc. All of these pale in comparison to the amount of Crit you get for Inner Light (And you are getting more than just a Crit boost with this ability).
Again IMO, either bring it down to be more in line with those (Dropping it from whopping 20% to a more balanced 10%), or have the ability Inner Light work for all Critical chance, not just spell. Third option to try and make Crit builds more balanced between spell and weapon, give the Fighters Guild an ability similar to Mage Light that improves just Weapon crit chance plus some other passive ability.
Making it add Weapon Critical would probably be the simpliest solution though it would be mandatory at that point for any stamina build. It would be a bandaid to the Stamina/Weapon problem but would certainly help in the interum until they figure itout.0 -
Maverick827✭✭✭✭✭
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Then the amount of weapon crit obtained from medium armor or from set bonuses would have to be decreased by 10% as well.Honestly in my opinion the amount of Crit you can get some Inner Light should be changed to 10%.
You can get more weapon crit without having to waste two slots; we've been through this already.
Maybe I am missing something but the last time I checked, there was no ability you can slot to give you a HUGE Crit increase to Weapons.Maverick827 wrote: »Then the amount of weapon crit obtained from medium armor or from set bonuses would have to be decreased by 10% as well.
Look at the bonuses you can get From Sets, Traits, Mundus, etc. All of these pale in comparison to the amount of Crit you get for Inner Light (And you are getting more than just a Crit boost with this ability).
Again IMO, either bring it down to be more in line with those (Dropping it from whopping 20% to a more balanced 10%), or have the ability Inner Light work for all Critical chance, not just spell. Third option to try and make Crit builds more balanced between spell and weapon, give the Fighters Guild an ability similar to Mage Light that improves just Weapon crit chance plus some other passive ability.
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Iam_Epiphany✭✭✭Flawless Dawnbreaker increases weapon damage by 13% which is = 26% crit, yes its an ultimate slot but its also a powerful attack in PVP for wiping vamps.2
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Mujuro✭✭✭✭
Actually, inner light's bonus should be expanded to include weapon crits, or a new skill added that gives stamina builds the rough equivalent of inner light.Maverick827 wrote: »Then the amount of weapon crit obtained from medium armor or from set bonuses would have to be decreased by 10% as well.
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dafraorb16_ESO✭✭✭yeah there are to much no nightblades magicka users cry babies
edit: just see Maverick lmao. this game will fail for these peopleEdited by dafraorb16_ESO on July 22, 2014 10:47PM2 -
Maverick827✭✭✭✭✭
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So that melee can get 82% - 88% weapon crit?
Actually, inner light's bonus should be expanded to include weapon crits, or a new skill added that gives stamina builds the rough equivalent of inner light.Maverick827 wrote: »Then the amount of weapon crit obtained from medium armor or from set bonuses would have to be decreased by 10% as well.2 -
Lyall84✭✭✭✭Maverick827 wrote: »
You love to ignore the fact that medium armor gets 21% critical vs the 42% spell penetration that light armor gets. Why do you always ignore that fact and the immense damage increase that it provides (against a soft capped player of 30% resistance, that penetration is good for 10 to 12 % damage increase, that is massive) meanwhile medium armor has no way of obtaining that penetration via toggle or passives.
Your suggestions to remove critical from medium would only be valid if you either
A - supported adding a large amount of armor penetration to medium
Or
B - supported removal of spell penetration from light.
You have tunnel vision on the critical value, when you need to step back and look at DPS as a whole.3 -
Lyall84✭✭✭✭Maverick827 wrote: »
Then the amount of weapon crit obtained from medium armor or from set bonuses would have to be decreased by 10% as well.Honestly in my opinion the amount of Crit you can get some Inner Light should be changed to 10%.
You can get more weapon crit without having to waste two slots; we've been through this already.
Maybe I am missing something but the last time I checked, there was no ability you can slot to give you a HUGE Crit increase to Weapons.Maverick827 wrote: »Then the amount of weapon crit obtained from medium armor or from set bonuses would have to be decreased by 10% as well.
Look at the bonuses you can get From Sets, Traits, Mundus, etc. All of these pale in comparison to the amount of Crit you get for Inner Light (And you are getting more than just a Crit boost with this ability).
Again IMO, either bring it down to be more in line with those (Dropping it from whopping 20% to a more balanced 10%), or have the ability Inner Light work for all Critical chance, not just spell. Third option to try and make Crit builds more balanced between spell and weapon, give the Fighters Guild an ability similar to Mage Light that improves just Weapon crit chance plus some other passive ability.
I would gladly give up those slots for 42% armor penetration.1 -
Lyall84✭✭✭✭Maverick827 wrote: »
So that melee can get 82% - 88% weapon crit?
Actually, inner light's bonus should be expanded to include weapon crits, or a new skill added that gives stamina builds the rough equivalent of inner light.Maverick827 wrote: »Then the amount of weapon crit obtained from medium armor or from set bonuses would have to be decreased by 10% as well.
Why not? Light armor can get 62% or more penetration with debuffs while medium can only get 40% (solely from the same spell penetration debuff).
Not going to leave you alone until you start looking at DPS as a whole. Power, penetration, critical...they are all linked together. You keep trying to treat them like they are completely different, then complain about how melee/stamina has just as much or a little more in one pile compared to magicka while ignoring the fact that magicka is miles ahead in the penetration department.1 -
Maverick827✭✭✭✭✭
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Please look back into my post history and find a single instance of me ever saying that stamina DPS as a whole was not lower than magicka DPS. I think we both know this is a rhetorical request because we both know you won't find that post. None of those discussions were about DPS as a whole. Neither is this one.Not going to leave you alone until you start looking at DPS as a whole.
Obviously stamina DPS needs a boost. I just don't think that boost should come in the form of a nerf to magicka DPS, nor do I think it should come in the form of near-100% weapon crit.Edited by Maverick827 on July 23, 2014 12:28AM0 -
Feidam✭✭✭Personally there should be a cap on crit that you can gain from items/passives/skills. The potion can still push you to 100%. This way you know the maximum anyone is going to get. Give more freedom on how to get there and adds constant that allows skills to be further balanced around. As it is now the dps meta is "more crit". One stat should not be so valuable and coveted.1 -
timidobserver✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Keeping people happy versus balancing the game is a matter of balance itself. It was probably determined that it wasn't worth it to make so much gear completely obsolete in the name of balance.V16 Uriel Stormblessed EP Magicka Templar(main)
V16 Derelict Vagabond EP Stamina DK
V16 Redacted Ep Stam Sorc
V16 Insolent EP Magicka Sorc(retired)
V16 Jed I Nyte EP Stamina NB(retired)0 -
JackDaniell✭✭✭✭✭
✭The people who cried about the willows set changes because they wanted 5% spell crit are just... simply... (Snip).
This was probably going to be one of the best sets in the game. But a blatant lack of knowledge from the community majority as a whole has gone and self nerfed it.
Why ZOS gave in to making this change I will never know, if they actually knew how their game worked I don't think they would have.
And yes, this set change is a nerf to stam builds. I was exited for 1.3 to finally give stam builds some kind of sustainability (by utilizing the new regen soft caps) and this set was one of the best options.Ebonheart Templar
www.youtube.com/user/kristofersommermusic2 -
Maverick827 wrote: »
So that melee can get 82% - 88% weapon crit?
Actually, inner light's bonus should be expanded to include weapon crits, or a new skill added that gives stamina builds the rough equivalent of inner light.Maverick827 wrote: »Then the amount of weapon crit obtained from medium armor or from set bonuses would have to be decreased by 10% as well.
Why not? Light armor can get 62% or more penetration with debuffs while medium can only get 40% (solely from the same spell penetration debuff).
Not going to leave you alone until you start looking at DPS as a whole. Power, penetration, critical...they are all linked together. You keep trying to treat them like they are completely different, then complain about how melee/stamina has just as much or a little more in one pile compared to magicka while ignoring the fact that magicka is miles ahead in the penetration department.Maverick827 wrote: »
Medium armor has cost reductions, but that's besides the point. Crit has nothing to do with armor/spell penetration, cost reductions, and resource regeneration.Birfreben_Kinghelred wrote: »Because you have spell penetration and cost reductions. Magicka and stamina are supposed to be different. That's the point. Oh and then you have the resto staff which gives you infinite resources. Right.
Still waiting for you to explain this, btw.Edited by Birfreben_Kinghelred on July 23, 2014 1:35AM2 -
Maverick827✭✭✭✭✭
✭I already have, not that it needed explaining.Edited by Maverick827 on July 23, 2014 1:42AM3 -
Anastasia✭✭✭✭I 100% agree with you.
It's a shame, Zenimax gave in with the Set changes.
I just wonder, what would happen if in Update 1.4 MeleeDMG would outperform Magicka DMG by ~400DPS? Than the crying crowd would have to play a "gimped" build or craft complete new Sets.
"Zenimax gave in..."
Yea. Same like Vet+ 1-10 content dilution.
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