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Why are solo players about to get segregated from group players?
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couchkyle25_ESO✭✭✭Nox_Aeterna wrote: »infraction2008b16_ESO wrote: »I expected to go into craglorn and explore the area as you would pre-craglorn, find people doing the same and group up them to do things such as quests but no, the masses generally steer clear of the quests and just grind...
Haven't stepped foot in Craglorn other than a few failed attempts to level before they nerfed anomalies so I cannot really comment on any content there.
However, what you said above underscores my previous point:- Group zones should be designed for grinding, gaining loot, etc.
- Group zones should NOT contain a lot of dialog
- Solo zones should be where the story is....
Trying to put too much story and dialog into a group zone or even a group-only dungeon is a futile waste of dev resources.
hehehe , it is funny cause the NPCs in dungeons actually talk and all.
It is all about skipping it in there , it is funny cause you wonder what the hell is happening.
Exactly.. and you know what happens when you're the healer and try to listen to that? You get bitched at because others just clicked through it, started killing the next mobs along the path and died without any heals.. I still don't know the story in the majority of the dungeons....
Thats the beauty of it to me. As a Tank, they leave without me at their own peril. I take my sweet ass time and listen. You wanna go on ahead? have fun with no Tank. I want the story, I like story. I disagree that group content should be me mindless grinding and loot, to me that's a terrible experience. I am one of those players you only hear rumors about. I walk that middle line, I enjoy both, and I don't think they need to be mutually exclusive.3 -
Enkil✭✭✭✭✭
✭I dunno.. maybe I am used to the old school MMO's like Shadowbane where group content was just grinding mobs at a camp... I still play that game (emulator) and love it as much as ESO.... But when I am getting into the story I want to be immersed without other people corrupting it.
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Omnevolus✭✭✭Because no matter what ZOS does there's going to be a population of players that don't like it. It just happens to be your turn, this time.2 -
Archaole✭✭✭arkansas_ESO wrote: »I honestly don't understand the desire to play solo in a massively multiplayer online game. The main appeal of a MMO is that it's got a lot of other people playing alongside with you in your world. Why play a multiplayer game if you want a singleplayer experience?
I said almost those exact same words before the VR content Nerf. The response? "Mmo does not mean group game." And then they told ME to learn the difference. Let them pay to play a single player game. I actually have social skills and can hold my own in a tough fight without asking the devs to change anything for me.5 -
arkansas_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭arkansas_ESO wrote: »I honestly don't understand the desire to play solo in a massively multiplayer online game. The main appeal of a MMO is that it's got a lot of other people playing alongside with you in your world. Why play a multiplayer game if you want a singleplayer experience?
I said almost those exact same words before the VR content Nerf. The response? "Mmo does not mean group game." And then they told ME to learn the difference. Let them pay to play a single player game. I actually have social skills and can hold my own in a tough fight without asking the devs to change anything for me.
Personally, I think the issue with VRs were that:- They were basically an extension of the level cap, so you had to do them (Champion system probably won't be much better)
- They were scaled to group difficulty, when phasing made most give up on group questing entirely. Thus, you've got mobs that hit as hard as mobs in dungeons, without any of the support of other people you'd have in dungeons.
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Grand Overlord 25/8/171 -
Kraen✭✭✭Well, and here it comes.
Players who cried about difficulty of Veteran zones are now crying for new content, because Veteran zones became trivial and soloable in 2 days.
Veteran zones were the solo endgame before the nerf. Cries of soloplayers made it trivial as it is now. It is your fault that you have nothing to do.Finneas of Baby Face Bananas
Free to Play? No, thx.7 -
Alphashado✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭It doesn't matter what they do or plan. There will always be a thread('s) complaining about it.
I mean seriously. They are making zones that appeal to both tastes in order to make people happy and now it's about segregation? Unreal.Edited by Alphashado on July 20, 2014 6:25AM4 -
Well, and here it comes.
Players who cried about difficulty of Veteran zones are now crying for new content, because Veteran zones became trivial and soloable in 2 days.
Veteran zones were the solo endgame before the nerf. Cries of soloplayers made it trivial as it is now. It is your fault that you have nothing to do.
1/ I completed cadwell's gold and hit VR12 long before the nerf.
2/ I had only had the game for about 3-4 weeks when I did.
3/ Endgame means content for the player to do indefinitely once they've hit level cap, VR content however was never designed to be played indefinitely as it was just rehashed 3-44 content (other alliance levelling content bar coldharbor). It basically had an expiry date and for good reason, it wasn't meant to be endgame but rather a stopgap until they actually released some endgame content being craglorn.
4/ As I said in the opening post I enjoy group play as well as solo play but the who, where, what, when and sometimes why should be up to me as the player. It's not particularly great reaching endgame only to find the game that dictates that I have to group in order to have any entertainment from it at all, in a franchise that is based on being the master of your own destiny, it seems they not only messed up "play as you want" for class balance but it seems you're pretty much forced to group as well.3 -
Phantax✭✭✭✭✭
✭Completely agree with the OP.
All new content 'should' include a mix of group and solo stuff. And yes even better if the Devs actually thought about it and made new areas with group/solo that actually co-exist.
That is probably the best way to get one player group to join in with the other players group. Solo players might look across and see group content that looks interesting and decide to join in, as groupers might see solo stuff and give it a go !
High Elf Sorcerer VR12 - Destro / Resto Staff
I'm a werewolf. If you vamps don't like it.... Bite me !
We're not retreating... we're advancing in a different direction !3 -
Phantax✭✭✭✭✭
✭arkansas_ESO wrote: »I honestly don't understand the desire to play solo in a massively multiplayer online game. The main appeal of a MMO is that it's got a lot of other people playing alongside with you in your world. Why play a multiplayer game if you want a singleplayer experience?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fLrpBLDWyCI
High Elf Sorcerer VR12 - Destro / Resto Staff
I'm a werewolf. If you vamps don't like it.... Bite me !
We're not retreating... we're advancing in a different direction !1 -
Completely agree with the OP.
All new content 'should' include a mix of group and solo stuff. And yes even better if the Devs actually thought about it and made new areas with group/solo that actually co-exist.
That is probably the best way to get one player group to join in with the other players group. Solo players might look across and see group content that looks interesting and decide to join in, as groupers might see solo stuff and give it a go !
That's the thing, people are mentioning stuff like "they should be encouraging group play" but how are they meant to encourage it if they bung soloers into a separate zone? It seems the only real reason they decided to announce Wrothgar was to shut people who want some solo content up while they continue to cater the bulk of the game for ER and associates...1 -
Robotukas✭✭✭infraction2008b16_ESO wrote: »Just to be clear before you read on, I actually enjoy grouping and actually wish there were more incentives to, but on the other hand I do also enjoy soloing at times especially when it's late and server is empty and I can make the adventure my own.
What I don't like is being forced or lumped into doing one or the other.
After reading on reddit about Wrothgar why do we have to wait until after two group only zones are released for any solo content? And more to the point why does there seem to be a policy of splitting up the player base depending on how they want to play socially?
I mean after craglorn you'd think creating zones where both solo/duo and group play could co-exist would be the better option, instead people who don't want to be forced into groups for every little thing have to wait until at least two major updates for any content to be dumped in what seems like a second rate zone just for soloers while everyone else gets regular adventure zones.
It's not only a lousy policy catering for both groups separately but for the company it must be a huge waste of development time and costs, why not kill two birds with the same stone and create areas that cater for all rather than saying if you group you have to go to this zone or if you solo you have to go here....
I mean unless half the dev team happen to be the "you need to group to tie your shoe laces" type what possible reason could there be to divide people up like this?
Because they want to play what they want but not what group want. In other way they like to be independently.2 -
steveb16_ESO46✭✭✭✭✭Well, and here it comes.
Players who cried about difficulty of Veteran zones are now crying for new content, because Veteran zones became trivial and soloable in 2 days.
Veteran zones were the solo endgame before the nerf. Cries of soloplayers made it trivial as it is now. It is your fault that you have nothing to do.
Cites please. Or are you just making stuff up?
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Enkil✭✭✭✭✭
✭Well, and here it comes.
Players who cried about difficulty of Veteran zones are now crying for new content, because Veteran zones became trivial and soloable in 2 days.
Veteran zones were the solo endgame before the nerf. Cries of soloplayers made it trivial as it is now. It is your fault that you have nothing to do.
Huh? Veteran zones can now be soloed without dying every other minute but they totally suck as an endgame. It's just regurgitated story that any player would really enjoy on an alt, but finds monotonous and tedious on the character from an opposing faction that would prefer to kill all the [snip] in that zone...
[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Cursing & Profanity]Edited by ZOS_JuhoJ on July 20, 2014 10:47AM1 -
zgrssd✭✭✭✭
It's a MMO.infraction2008b16_ESO wrote: »After reading on reddit about Wrothgar why do we have to wait until after two group only zones are released for any solo content?
There is only so much player attarction solo content has. The REAL deal for holding the playerbase is the group and PvP content.
People won't stay for the solo content. Heck, most will just skip the dialog after 1-2 playthroughs, install a skyshard addon after having played a area 1-2 times (and found the skyshards the hard way/with guides).
Wich pretty much reduces it to a Solo PvE grind game in that area.
Solo play is plain and simple not a big part of the MMO concept. Focussing on it over group and PvP content would be just thing:
Stupid. Not even a understandable missdecision. Just. Plain. Stupid. It's about as smart and logical as shooting yourself in the foot with a bazooka.Edited by zgrssd on July 20, 2014 9:52AMElana Peterson (EU), Dominion, Imperial Sorc, Rune & Alchemy Crafting Char
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If you think anything I or somebody else said violates the Rules of this Forum, you are free to flag my posts. Till I get any notifcaion from this, I just asume you know you have no case against me or Zenimax disagrees with you.2 -
Vahrokh✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭arkansas_ESO wrote: »Personally, I think the issue with VRs were that:- They were scaled to group difficulty, when phasing made most give up on group questing entirely. Thus, you've got mobs that hit as hard as mobs in dungeons, without any of the support of other people you'd have in dungeons.
No way.Vaerah, Dark Elf Magicka Sorceress
Trials addict, soloer extraordinaire!
Here are my Elder Scrolls Online videos
Here is the Sorcerer Helper addon I have updated to work on current ESO2 -
Vahrokh✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Solo play is plain and simple not a big part of the MMO concept. Focussing on it over group and PvP content would be just thing:
Stupid. Not even a understandable missdecision. Just. Plain. Stupid. It's about as smart and logical as shooting yourself in the foot with a bazooka.
It's not 2003 any more, when 50k players were a *good* MMO player base and they were hard and though internet guys who'd dedicate body and soul to the game.
In 2005, as hard core raiding guild leader, I found fair to have to manage 2 groups of 40 people each for daily raiding.
Almost ten years later, most including me have job, wife, responsibility etc. Go convince wife that it's PARAMOUNT you stay 4 hours with a dedicated group to do <badass raid name here>. She'll tell you to GTFO and go buy food or look at the child or whatever.Edited by Vahrokh on July 20, 2014 10:23AMVaerah, Dark Elf Magicka Sorceress
Trials addict, soloer extraordinaire!
Here are my Elder Scrolls Online videos
Here is the Sorcerer Helper addon I have updated to work on current ESO1 -
Anastasia✭✭✭✭Solo play is plain and simple not a big part of the MMO concept. Focussing on it over group and PvP content would be just thing:
Stupid. Not even a understandable missdecision. Just. Plain. Stupid. It's about as smart and logical as shooting yourself in the foot with a bazooka.
It's not 2003 any more, when 50k players were a *good* MMO player base and they were hard and though internet guys who'd dedicate body and soul to the game.
In 2005, as hard core raiding guild leader, I found fair to have to manage 2 groups of 40 people each for daily raiding.
Almost ten years later, most including me have job, wife, responsibility etc. Go convince wife that it's PARAMOUNT you stay 4 hours with a dedicated group to do <badass raid name here>. She'll tell you to GTFO and go buy food or look at the child or whatever.
Perhaps. Or, perhaps, just like our age segment, there are many young adult players at just the precise time in their lives which provides the right amount of leisure time to dedicate in the exact SAME way we 'raided extraordinaire.'
A half hour farming up coin, a half-hour prep, three hours good challenging raiding, and 30 minutes to distribute loot, sell it and bank it are not some model only allowed to the 20th century vet PvE MMO gamers. They've just improved it and let it evolve.
And, if I didn't have control over my entertainment hours without repercussion in a relationship I might have pause to reconsider it. But then, I fell in love with someone who has interests that interweave and overlap with mine, travel, gaming and pursuit of knowledge.
Sympathies extended for those not in the same sort of relationship.
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SgtPepperUK✭✭✭I'll never understand solo in a group game. Just seems so counter intuitive.
I do and I don't.
From the point of view of story lines, those can be a pain to keep up with in a group. You want to talk to the NPC some more, your team mates are pressing ahead already. Or you team up with people and it turns out you each have a different bunch of quests or are at different stages of the quest.
So I do think general PvE questing can be often best done solo.
That said, I do think there has to be group content and, at times, people need to be forced into it. But it needs to be well structured, I've done several lower level dungeons in this game and, quite frankly, it was difficult keeping up with the story.
Heck, once one party member spoke to the first NPC in the dungeon the other party members could no longer speak to that NPC and, therefore, gain no background to what's going on.
A better way is to have a quest outside the dungeon to give the background, which can be picked up solo, group up, do the dungeon, leave, go back to NPC to get conclusion of quest in your own time.
I keep hating to bring up FFXIV but again, they do this well. You unlock the dungeon on your own, doing the quest at your own pace, once unlocked you team up with people, do the dungeon.
Once you're done, the party members can go their own way and turn in the associated quest.
Additionally, we need much better grouping tools sooner rather than later.1 -
It's a MMO.infraction2008b16_ESO wrote: »After reading on reddit about Wrothgar why do we have to wait until after two group only zones are released for any solo content?
There is only so much player attarction solo content has. The REAL deal for holding the playerbase is the group and PvP content.
People won't stay for the solo content. Heck, most will just skip the dialog after 1-2 playthroughs, install a skyshard addon after having played a area 1-2 times (and found the skyshards the hard way/with guides).
Wich pretty much reduces it to a Solo PvE grind game in that area.
Solo play is plain and simple not a big part of the MMO concept. Focussing on it over group and PvP content would be just thing:
Stupid. Not even a understandable missdecision. Just. Plain. Stupid. It's about as smart and logical as shooting yourself in the foot with a bazooka.
Try actually reading the first few lines of my post, I'm not anti group, I don't want this to become a solo only game, it's just you can't expect a game with no solo stuff at endgame to work well for people who either can't or don't want to group up for every single little thing.
Here's a good example I seen in another thread:nerevarine1138 wrote: »
Just out of pure, morbid curiosity, why isn't grouping even an option for you? This is an MMO, after all. You had to anticipate playing with others at some point.
@nerevarine1138
Well, without getting into too much detail. My life revolves around monitoring and caring for a person with a traumatic brain injury. This puts me in a situation of having a LOT of time for gaming, but not a minute of 'free time'.
I can be called upon at any instance to assist them going to the bathroom, or changing the channel, or preventing a seizure. So at any given moment I might have to walk away from the game, even if that means in the middle of a battle. I might be away from the game for 10-15 minutes or more at a stretch.
This doesn't typically work well in groups. I have a couple friends who understand my situation and we do group together frequently. However, they also understand and accept that requirements of my priorities. I certainly am not going to explain this all in detail every time a group needs to be formed.
Most of my games I play with a pause button. Certain MMOs like ESO, and SWTOR do offer up enough solo only content that I can also enjoy without burdening fellow players with my circumstances.
^^People like this Falmer guy I quoted above who have RL commitments aren't stupid for playing MMO's as you suggest, they simply can't commit as much time to the game as you can, that doesn't mean they shouldn't have the right to play the game their sub is paying for or not have things to actually do in the game because they can't commit to group content.
IMO this "group or GTFO" bandwagon everyone seems to be jumping on is just dumb, it just messes things up for the wrong people... people otherwise who are likely to stay loyal and sub for a long time.2 -
Ser Lobo✭✭✭✭✭
✭I only get to group maybe one or two nights every few weeks. Real life commitments prevent me from having that kind of time to invest. And I've been playing consecutively since pre-launch access.
As a mostly solo player, there is far more solo content out there than group content, by far. Even at my slow pace, I'm going through both at a fast rate.Ruze Aulus. Mayor of Dhalmora. Archer, hunter, assassin. Nightblade.
Gral. Mountain Terror. Barbarian, marauder, murderer. Nightblade.
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XBOX NARuze is a veteran of the PC Beta, lived through the year one drought, survived the buy-to-play conversion, and has stepped foot in the hells known as Craglorn. He mained a nightlbade when nightblades weren't good, and has never worn a robe. He converted from PC during the console betas, and hasn't regretted it a moment since.
He'd rank ESO:TU (in it's current state) a 4.8 out of 5, loving the game almost entirely.
This is an multiplayer game. I should be able to log in, join a dungeon, join a battleground, queue for a dolmen or world boss or delve, teleport in, play for 20 minutes, and not worry about getting kicked, failing to join, having perfect voice coms, or being unable to complete content because someone's lagging behind. Group Finder and matchmaking is broken. Take a note from Destiny and build a system that allows from drop-in/drop-out functionality and quick play.1 -
timidobserver✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭timidobserver wrote: »There is no way to satisfy some people. They whine about no Solo content, so in repsonse, ZOS decides to make them an entire zone dedicated to nothing but soloing. Okay, now they are going to complain about being separated from group content.
Exactly.
I don't even understand why are people whining about separation when they don't mind openly criticizing each other in the forums in other words they are separating themselves from the other group. There clearly is a group of people who think the content was too hard and the group who prefers more difficult content. Quit complaining already.
It is like their real issue is not the content for themselves. What they really want is to be able to control what everyone can do. It isn't enough that they get to do what they want. They want everyone to have to do what they want.V16 Uriel Stormblessed EP Magicka Templar(main)
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Audigy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I'll never understand solo in a group game. Just seems so counter intuitive.
Every MMO had solo elements, even EQ or WOW once
Not every MMO is like WOW today where you only have group content - the so called raid or die philosophy.
The key is to actually balance the parts where you group and where you don't.
In the first MMOs that I played we had mobs and dungeons that were better done together. We didn't had "ID´s", or "Phases" - entering a dungeon was exactly this, you entered a dungeon and if someone was in there then you came in the same dungeon as he was, if someone killed the boss then the dungeon was empty until server reset.
This I miss today, everything is phased to yourself or the group you are in. Just look at WOW, you enter a raid and get an ID - now you are theoretically alone unless you invite someone to your ID, even though that person enters the exact same dungeon as you did a few seconds before.
That's what kind of split gamers over time, people became more focused about themselves than about others and the result is that now a lot of people don't like other people in games.
Raid groups are only formed with "friends & by Gearscore", others refuse totally to interact with players and game companies now must give both groups content and the results are phased raids and dungeons based on an ID and daily quests for the solo gamer.
What I liked about the VR zones was the old touch, you could solo a lot there - but the world bosses and events required help. This really worked well for me, but I guess it didn't so well for the newer MMO fans.
The new AV´s seem good, they give stuff for both groups of players and this is definitely better than the raid or die philosophy. But yes, it splits players even further and sooner or later they will start comparing how much content they got compared to the others and this will result again in fights.Edited by Audigy on July 20, 2014 7:39PM2 -
Moonscythe✭✭✭✭✭I don't really think group only players will ever understand those who truly prefer to solo and vice versa; however there are also practical reasons to provide a dual path through content. There appear to be many couples who want to play together but don't feel the need to bond with strangers. More importantly though there are many who can only play at off peak times and have no steady reliable always available friends to group with. They are effectively shut out from much content they would like to experience as much as the groupies do. I just don't see why soloers, duos and groupers can't agree to disagree. There doesn't need to be so much animosity.Scura di Notte - Altmer Nightblade (gear)
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Dekkameron✭✭✭✭✭I like to think of group zones as more like a challenge- Veteran Combat Librarian -1 -
Anastasia✭✭✭✭Moonscythe wrote: »I don't really think group only players will ever understand those who truly prefer to solo and vice versa; however there are also practical reasons to provide a dual path through content. There appear to be many couples who want to play together but don't feel the need to bond with strangers. More importantly though there are many who can only play at off peak times and have no steady reliable always available friends to group with. They are effectively shut out from much content they would like to experience as much as the groupies do. I just don't see why soloers, duos and groupers can't agree to disagree. There doesn't need to be so much animosity.
Great points on a dual path Moonscythe. I fully support it for all players.
I will say though I've not ever, not even once, read any post or heard anyone in the ingame chat say/support or call for Group Only/Group All The Time content. Yet that is EXACTLY what I've read, seen and hear in forums, guild com's and ingame chat by people who want MORE SOLOING and SOLOING IN ALL CONTENT AT ALL LEVELS.
Right now, soloers ALREADY have been given much more solo content than was the original outstanding design for TESO.
So those of us who think that Vet+ content nerf impacts endgame and would rather see phasing addressed, better group rewards, a higher group bonus for e x p have been told repeatedly:
"fergit it jack, you're outta touch -- don't need no grouping shizz in a modern game or at the least maybe allow it for three or four places per zone in dungeons not worth doing more than once or twice or the delves. There! There is your ghetto grouping content -- not needed, not rewarded and not effective for helping folks gear up and learn what they need to have a handle on *BEFORE* they arrive to endgame."
Neither is there enough group content for those who do like to do that primarily compared to the amount of viably soloable content in TESO. So now, since Quakecon/the new features released that are coming,err, 'sometime in the next six months/a year maybe, primarily solo supporters are saying that its not fair? That whats coming is gonna separate players more? That TESO now needs even more soloability in endgame as well???
No. A little more reason to duo/trio and full-on group per zone with a good amount more group incentives here, and then a little more solo-centric questing there. Thats the way I'd like it to go.
Edited by Anastasia on July 20, 2014 10:18PM2 -
cf398ub17_ESO✭✭✭i am excited that solo players get there own thing i wanted to quest in crag cause the story looked cool but almost every one wanted to grind and the couple people i did get to quest with just wanted to skip through the conversation with the npcs
so it will be cool that i have a new story i can do at my own pace2
