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New Champion Point System creating an even larger player gap
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Xnemesis✭✭✭✭Nox_Aeterna wrote: »Well , wait and see seems a fair idea.
It could go wrong that is true. Honestly , i prefer to current a lot more. If max lvl is vr12 , anyone can go and try to get it , even if it takes sometime.
Now if the max lvl is infinite , then people will really never be equal , doesnt matter how long.
Nobody said it was infinite0 -
Nox_Aeterna✭✭✭✭✭
✭Nox_Aeterna wrote: »Well , wait and see seems a fair idea.
It could go wrong that is true. Honestly , i prefer to current a lot more. If max lvl is vr12 , anyone can go and try to get it , even if it takes sometime.
Now if the max lvl is infinite , then people will really never be equal , doesnt matter how long.
Nobody said it was infinite
Which adds to me wanting to see it working before i bash it too much on just concept.
I did not hear about a cap either, did they give a number?"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."
-Hanlon's razor2 -
Audigy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭From what I can gather a player will continually level up with gained xp and thus unlocking new passives with champion points. I know you will still gain a modest amount of xp even when your not playing but I doubt it will compare to a player who devotes a lot of time to the game.
I thought the biggest issue everyone has with Veteran Ranks is the cruel shock you get when you hit VR1 and go up against a VR12 and get your face stomped in. I don't see how this Champion Point System will be any different. In fact, from the way it reads, the gap between players could effectively get worse over time.
Does anyone else feel this new champion system will create an even larger gap between the players who play more vs the players who only have time to play casually?
Actually the whole point of an MMO is that older players have more advanced chars than new one.
I know WOW works in a different way and a brand new level 90 is as strong as a 2 years old level 90 - but gladly this isn't how ESO works.4 -
Kayira✭✭✭✭I find it annoying that you still feel like you need more and more exp. There is never a point where you can say: look I have stopped leveling. I understand that everyone will be lvl 50 and equipment wise it makes no difference but by always gaining champion points it feels you never reach a point where you can stop grinding exp and just focus on fishing, socialising and running dungeons and raids without looking at your exp bar because you will always work towards a champion point you want to put into a specific passive. I find that annoying I assume other people will like it, because you never reach an end until you have more champion points you will ever need in your life.2 -
Audigy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I find it annoying that you still feel like you need more and more exp. There is never a point where you can say: look I have stopped leveling. I understand that everyone will be lvl 50 and equipment wise it makes no difference but by always gaining champion points it feels you never reach a point where you can stop grinding exp and just focus on fishing, socialising and running dungeons and raids without looking at your exp bar because you will always work towards a champion point you want to put into a specific passive. I find that annoying I assume other people will like it, because you never reach an end until you have more champion points you will ever need in your life.
The point of an MMO is exactly this. You don't have an end to reach, that's the whole point of them
What you want are single player RPG´s like Skyrim where you have a story line and once done the game is over.
Again,
I must point out that this is how it always was before WOW came. That leveling to 90 and then being max without anything to do to develop your Char until 2 years later the level cap is raised to 95 isn't how MMOs worked before and I support every company that understands this and goes back to the roots of MMOs.
Do you stop learning and improving yourself once you reach the age of 18? I don't think you do and exactly this is what happens to your Char in an MMO. Its a never ending progress, that whole gear farming was a poor excuse for this as not everyone likes to grind the same raid or dungeon for months.9 -
Wizzo91✭✭✭✭✭Does anyone else feel this new champion system will create an even larger gap between the players who play more vs the players who only have time to play casually?
So casuals want to be as good as people who invest a lot time in game? It's not working this way. It's the same with everything in world - want to be good in playing on piano? Fine! Invest some time to learn! Want to be good in making programs? Fine, invest some time to learn how to make them!
You know, maybe it's new trend. Everyone want everything right now, without investing anything - time, knowledge or your skills.
In my opinion, champion system is great, it will give ESO more... hm, freedom in creating builds. Making your own specialization will be much funnier!
I totally agree.
Now close this discussion.[EU]
Wizzo - Stamina DK - 50 - DC
Wizzox - Magicka NB - 50 - DC
Vilest Wizz - Magicka Sorc - 50 - DC
Wiser Wizz - Magicka NB - 50 - DC
Wizzo X - Magicka NB - 50 - AD
In Rainbows - Stam Sorc - 50 - AD
Fake Plastic Tree - Stamplar - 50 - EP
6XX CP3 -
rekina✭✭✭Jesus, these people have such a terrible mentality that they want to win other players with their playtime, not with experiences and skill executions... sigh.
And by your "the older characters should be advanced than newer characters because that's how it works in real life" logic you should be still advancing your strength, agility and intelligence in your 90s. One of the most stupid argument ever I've seen. What more making me frustrated is the fact that you don't see how the logic is bad.Edited by rekina on July 19, 2014 2:42PM11 -
CoUsT✭✭✭Jesus, these people have such a terrible mentality that they want to win other players with their playtime, not with experiences and skill executions... sigh.
And by your "the older characters should be advanced than newer characters because that's how it works in real life" logic you should be still advancing your strength, agility and intelligence in your 90s. One of the most stupid argument ever I've seen. What more making me frustrated is the fact that you don't see how the logic is bad.
Okies, free fully geared characters for everyone! Oh, they can't forget about skill points!
Okay, now we are ready to brainless fight in Cyrodiil, horray!
Wait, I forgot about "give me everything button".
Btw. Playtime + experience and skill = WOMBO COMBO
BOOMCFKSZEdited by CoUsT on July 19, 2014 2:45PM6 -
Nox_Aeterna✭✭✭✭✭
✭Jesus, these people have such a terrible mentality that they want to win other players with their playtime, not with experiences and skill executions... sigh.
And by your "the older characters should be advanced than newer characters because that's how it works in real life" logic you should be still advancing your strength, agility and intelligence in your 90s. One of the most stupid argument ever I've seen. What more making me frustrated is the fact that you don't see how the logic is bad.
Yeap , pretty much this.
The reason WoW became what it became is exactly because it had the good sense to change.
Lets put it this way , i dont need to see this system , the know that whatever happens will not make old players gods so far from new players that they cant get to it , end of story.
So yeah , maybe it is irrelevant buffs , maybe it is something we can gather without not so much time , maybe it is something else.
The point is , it will not create a game where new players dont want to join because they know there is no point.
Which bring us back to waiting to see what happens.Edited by Nox_Aeterna on July 19, 2014 2:46PM"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."
-Hanlon's razor6 -
Dominoid✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭They didn't mention it yesterday but in the OTR interview Paul said there will be a new resting bonus for time logged out making experience gained higher to keep people together more. Obviously there'll still be a gap.4 -
Raash✭✭✭✭Does anyone else feel this new champion system will create an even larger gap between the players who play more vs the players who only have time to play casually?
So casuals want to be as good as people who invest a lot time in game? It's not working this way. It's the same with everything in world - want to be good in playing on piano? Fine! Invest some time to learn! Want to be good in making programs? Fine, invest some time to learn how to make them!
You know, maybe it's new trend. Everyone want everything right now, without investing anything - time, knowledge or your skills.
In my opinion, champion system is great, it will give ESO more... hm, freedom in creating builds. Making your own specialization will be much funnier!
I totally agree.
Now close this discussion.
You think that by winning a bike race with your custom built cycle with motor and everything vs others using regular bicycles makes you the better driver.
Guys like you are incredible.7 -
Audigy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Jesus, these people have such a terrible mentality that they want to win other players with their playtime, not with experiences and skill executions... sigh.
And by your "the older characters should be advanced than newer characters because that's how it works in real life" logic you should be still advancing your strength, agility and intelligence in your 90s. One of the most stupid argument ever I've seen. What more making me frustrated is the fact that you don't see how the logic is bad.
I feel sorry for you if you really think like that.
A friend of mine, or better said someone who is living next door in the street is in his 60s, had a wife for 40 years that sadly passed away, 3 kids that come by sometimes and he just finished his Exam in Physics.
He said that he likes to improve his knowledge about things in life and he felt it was always nice to see what's there to discover. He is now even thinking about a Masters degree in Astro Physics...
I am sure he would disagree with you, just like I do.
Life is a never-ending process of learning and improving yourself, I find it hard to believe that someone in the age of 22 after he finished university or college, just stops learning and rests on his couch for the next 60 years or so
No offence, but ya I just don't agree with your view about life and MMOs sorry Edited by Audigy on July 19, 2014 4:34PM10 -
rekina✭✭✭Jesus, these people have such a terrible mentality that they want to win other players with their playtime, not with experiences and skill executions... sigh.
And by your "the older characters should be advanced than newer characters because that's how it works in real life" logic you should be still advancing your strength, agility and intelligence in your 90s. One of the most stupid argument ever I've seen. What more making me frustrated is the fact that you don't see how the logic is bad.
I feel sorry for you if you really think like that.
A friend of mine, or better said someone who is living next door in the street is in his 60s, had a wife for 40 years that sadly passed away, 3 kids that come by sometimes and he just finished his Exam in Physics.
He said that he likes to improve his knowledge about things in life and he felt it was always nice to see what's there to discover. He is now even thinking about a Masters degree in Astro Physics...
I am sure he would disagree with you, just like I do.
Life is a never-ending process of learning and improving yourself, I find it hard to believe that someone in the age of 22 after he finished university or college, just stops learning and rests on his couch for the next 60 years or so
No offence, but ya I just don't disagree with your view about life and MMOs sorry
Come back when he still wins 20s men with arm wrestle. No offence, you are [Snip].
[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Cursing & Profanity]Edited by ZOS_LucasA on July 19, 2014 9:27PM7 -
From what I can gather a player will continually level up with gained xp and thus unlocking new passives with champion points. I know you will still gain a modest amount of xp even when your not playing but I doubt it will compare to a player who devotes a lot of time to the game.
I thought the biggest issue everyone has with Veteran Ranks is the cruel shock you get when you hit VR1 and go up against a VR12 and get your face stomped in. I don't see how this Champion Point System will be any different. In fact, from the way it reads, the gap between players could effectively get worse over time.
Does anyone else feel this new champion system will create an even larger gap between the players who play more vs the players who only have time to play casually?
Yes. Just like if you get into a fiddling contest with someone who spends 10 hours per day practicing the fiddle, you will most likely get stomped, unless you're some kind of natural fiddling savant.
This is the nature of reality.
6 -
aronothub17_ESO✭✭✭actually i dont see it being game breaking at all. Have you ever played RIFT, I see the champion system as much the same as planar attunement, and PA was hardly game breaking. the passives will be something like a a 1% hp a 1% dmg with such weapon. sure, by spending points well you could get say a whole 20% damage or hp boost but thats hardly game breaking considering the time you would have to spend earning that 20%. Its basically implementing a passive never ending leveling system. Which im sure, like Planar attunement, will get harder to earn points each time you earn a point. I think on my characters on RIFT it takes like 60 million xp just to gain one point in PA.
The only thing that could cause issue is its implementation. is it going to be universal based on ALL xp earned to date or are they going to screw over people who have gone to VR12 and no longer are able to get vr1-12 worth of xp into the Champion system. That could cause a bit of a grip, and i dont even have a VR 12 toon
1 -
Is there SOMETHING you're not complaining about?Does anyone else feel this new champion system will create an even larger gap between the players who play more vs the players who only have time to play casually?
So casuals want to be as good as people who invest a lot time in game? It's not working this way. It's the same with everything in world - want to be good in playing on piano? Fine! Invest some time to learn! Want to be good in making programs? Fine, invest some time to learn how to make them!
You know, maybe it's new trend. Everyone want everything right now, without investing anything - time, knowledge or your skills.
In my opinion, champion system is great, it will give ESO more... hm, freedom in creating builds. Making your own specialization will be much funnier!
I totally agree.
Now close this discussion.
You think that by winning a bike race with your custom built cycle with motor and everything vs others using regular bicycles makes you the better driver.
Guys like you are incredible.
C'mon.
0 -
danno8✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭And by your "the older characters should be advanced than newer characters because that's how it works in real life" logic you should be still advancing your strength, agility and intelligence in your 90s. One of the most stupid argument ever I've seen. What more making me frustrated is the fact that you don't see how the logic is bad.
You're right. All those 90 year olds out there should do us all a favour and just drop dead.
http://www.edmontonsun.com/2011/05/18/90yearold-boxer-still-going-strong
http://articles.mcall.com/2013-11-14/news/mc-pc-ninety-year-old-woman-20131114_1_navy-building-oppenheim-dentist
http://news.yahoo.com/video/90-old-volunteer-still-going-191034415.html
...and countless more. Seriously, just give up you old farts. Your continual life advancement is "bad logic".5 -
rekina✭✭✭What is this, some kind of Republican thread? Stuffy old chaps in their 90s packing up and marching in wheelchairs while holding pickets that saying "YOUNG BOYS SUCK LISTEN TO OLD PEOPLE" "START WAR WITH NK RIGHT NOW"?
I'm getting outta here. Apparently this is not somewhere I want to stay 4 -
Burnemdown✭✭✭
Yeah, as a matter of fact I did.aronothub17_ESO wrote: »actually i dont see it being game breaking at all. Have you ever played RIFT, I see the champion system as much the same as planar attunement, and PA was hardly game breaking. the passives will be something like a a 1% hp a 1% dmg with such weapon. sure, by spending points well you could get say a whole 20% damage or hp boost but thats hardly game breaking considering the time you would have to spend earning that 20%. Its basically implementing a passive never ending leveling system. Which im sure, like Planar attunement, will get harder to earn points each time you earn a point. I think on my characters on RIFT it takes like 60 million xp just to gain one point in PA.
The only thing that could cause issue is its implementation. is it going to be universal based on ALL xp earned to date or are they going to screw over people who have gone to VR12 and no longer are able to get vr1-12 worth of xp into the Champion system. That could cause a bit of a grip, and i dont even have a VR 12 toon
I did enjoy Rift's AA system too. What it did for me, as a mostly solo player, was make it possible to compete in PVP after taking a break and not having all the best gear. I did have about 600 pa points. ( 600 wasn't that many compared to what others had, I know).
What it also did for me, was to make another barrier to be able to raid. Remember, the requirement that you had to have pa. maxed to take on content that was not balanced around p.a. ?
What Rift did right, was to cap what you could spend in pa from time to time.
The fact is the people that search every possible way to exploit anything will.
In rift it took some of you guys what, 6 hrs to max your pa points? And then start complaining to give you more.
AA can increase the gap between the new and vet players considerable. At the point I left that game a few months ago, pa was like wearing 2-3 pieces extra purple gear.
Teso staff should be aware,that this widening gap is what many here are after, and many will spread misinformation just to reach a personal advantage.Biggest EPEEN.
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xsfkxnub19_ESO wrote: »Honestly if you put in 20 hours into the game you deserve to be superior to someone who only plays 2 hours or so. (random numbers)
Let's put it this way, two people earn the same amount of money for each hour they work. If I put in overtime, I continue to get paid, and if I stop working well I don't continue to make any money. The person who did overtime gets a raise (i.e gained more xp) the person who did not do extra work should not expect a reward.
The same concept should apply here. but instead everyone wants to be spoon fed. I don't understand why people think they deserve the same reward without putting in the same amount of effort.
I simply cannot stand the mindset of being held by your hand...
Yep I agree spend ten times the time playing, get ten times the reward.
Thing is, your conveniently missing the other part if that. Play for 10 times as much time, pay ten times as much to do it! Somehow I guess you don't want that part of representational play times to be applied.
It would be fair if you play for ten hours a week, you sub stays as $15. You play for fourty hours, your sub should be $60.
If you can't accept or counter that with a decent business reason, you can't really champion a system that benefits those with no real life responsibilities over those that do have them.
It's not going to be long until the media starts putting pressure on game devs to be socially responsible and stop rewarding unhealthy amounts of game time.
I see what you're trying to say here but does that mean if I use my unlimited broadband service (we are paying for unlimited game time) more than the average person that I should be required to pay more for the service ? You & me are paying for unlimited game time so just because someone decides to play less it shouldn't mean they should instantly get the same reward as a player who is on all day. I have 4 children, a wife, a full time job (nights) so I only get to play early morning & weekends so not a biased opinion. Should I be compensated for the 5 days a week where I'm on at non-peak hours because there is next to no-one to group with, I definitely wouldn't expect that it is my choice to have the lifestyle I have & others shouldn't get punished because of that, if they play for 12 hours a day they should be better than me.2 -
KariTR✭✭✭✭✭Can we remember that the first player to reach level 50 took 17 hours to do so?
Like most modern MMOs, the levelling in ESO is not so horribly slow the cap is never in sight. Nor is there a bar to when people can join the game, so there will always be new players of your level to share content with.
If you don't like the fact there will always be player-characters of a higher level than your own, then MMOs are probably not for you.4 -
Kayira✭✭✭✭The first player only reached lvl 50 in 17h because the dungeon system was exploited that gave a massive exp reward per mob. It would not be possible to reach lvl 50 that fast nowadays even by grinding, which is much fadter than questing.2
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Hypertionb14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭what game are you playing?
VR content is pathetic now.. less mobs and less damage and hp......... its barely the step up that it was...I play every class in every situation. I love them all.2 -
KariTR✭✭✭✭✭The first player only reached lvl 50 in 17h because the dungeon system was exploited that gave a massive exp reward per mob. It would not be possible to reach lvl 50 that fast nowadays even by grinding, which is much fadter than questing.
Speed levellers will find the most efficient avenues always, just because one closes, doesn't mean others don't exist.
How long do you think is reasonable to get to the current cap? Some of my guildmates have been VR12 forever and I am still only half way through VR9. I do play less, but the biggest factor to the gap is down to choice of play style.
And, as I said, this is a persistent world, new players are joining all the time, there will always be someone of your level to share content with.1 -
CoUsT✭✭✭The first player only reached lvl 50 in 17h because the dungeon system was exploited that gave a massive exp reward per mob. It would not be possible to reach lvl 50 that fast nowadays even by grinding, which is much fadter than questing.
You say so? I leveled one of my characters to level 50 in only 4 hours by AoE grinding.
GG.3 -
Kayira✭✭✭✭I totally agree with you. If you just look at the grinds available for vr ranks. First kada (or something like that) was exploited exp, that got nerfed -> anomalies -> nerfed -> bala and hircine. There will always be a way and running wayrest sewer with a good group also gives you around 5-10% per run. You run it in under 20min so it doesn't take so long.
There are always ways to speed level but often it is not an enjoyable path.
Sorry i can't give you an estimate because i quested through it. I took my time i only know from friends that is it possible.2 -
JackDaniell✭✭✭✭✭
✭Does anyone else feel this new champion system will create an even larger gap between the players who play more vs the players who only have time to play casually?
The gap between v1 and v12 (in PvP at least) is actually not that big. The stat and gear bonuses a v12 gets is far from wrecking a v1 stat wise. In fact I would argue that what makes a v12 better than a v1 is just more practice and experience playing their class. I have seen many v12 players fall to v1 players.
Also I don't believe the champion system will make such a huge difference (Just speculation of course). I know that your amount of champion points will probably have a "cap" somewhat like how you no longer gain exp in your bar once you hit v12. And if it doesn't then their is the fact that the champion system has many skill trees in it. This makes me think that each skill tree has a certain limit to how many points can be dumped into it until its full. So perhaps people who grind and play all the time will just be able to have more skill trees maxed without re-specing. I am also assuming that you wont be able to utilize all the trees with any one given build.
As for the system itself, I think it will add a HUGE amount of diversity to character development. No longer will you be the same as the person next to you, even if your using the same skills and gear.Ebonheart Templar
www.youtube.com/user/kristofersommermusic0 -
Audigy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭How fast someone levels up depends on each person I think, personally I tend to be very slow
But this isn't the point I think. The whole champion system will give players a reason to play on max level, also if they do not intend to raid or to pvp.
Its a char progression not based on items, you can improve your extraction skills, see items better, get a better price from vendors, maybe even walk faster or have a lower cooldown on your Ultimate.
Not sure about others here, but to me it is a really important feature in an MMO. To have a finished char is automatically the reason why I unsub and why Ultima still has my "loyality" after so many years.2 -
timidobserver✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭A few points to think about OP:
-The Champion Point system isn't as restrictive as the Veteran System. You aren't required you to move to progressively harder zones to continue progressing or move in a linear fashion. My understanding, which could be wrong, is that you could go back and help your level 20 buddy level and you would get Champion Points from that.
-As far as time spent goes, the Champion Point System is global. Once you do it on one character, all of your characters have access to the points. That cuts the time of leveling an alt significantly.
-Gear isn't based on Champion Points like it is currently based on Veteran Levels. Someone with 1 Champion Point is going to be able to wear the same gear as someone with 10 or 20. All Max level gear will be level 50.
Overall, the Champion Point system would still leave tons to do and a lot of room to progress your character through passives, but it makes the game endgame less time consuming, tedious, and linear.Edited by timidobserver on July 19, 2014 4:58PMV16 Uriel Stormblessed EP Magicka Templar(main)
V16 Derelict Vagabond EP Stamina DK
V16 Redacted Ep Stam Sorc
V16 Insolent EP Magicka Sorc(retired)
V16 Jed I Nyte EP Stamina NB(retired)1 -
Guppet✭✭✭✭✭
✭darkmadman187 wrote: »xsfkxnub19_ESO wrote: »Honestly if you put in 20 hours into the game you deserve to be superior to someone who only plays 2 hours or so. (random numbers)
Let's put it this way, two people earn the same amount of money for each hour they work. If I put in overtime, I continue to get paid, and if I stop working well I don't continue to make any money. The person who did overtime gets a raise (i.e gained more xp) the person who did not do extra work should not expect a reward.
The same concept should apply here. but instead everyone wants to be spoon fed. I don't understand why people think they deserve the same reward without putting in the same amount of effort.
I simply cannot stand the mindset of being held by your hand...
Yep I agree spend ten times the time playing, get ten times the reward.
Thing is, your conveniently missing the other part if that. Play for 10 times as much time, pay ten times as much to do it! Somehow I guess you don't want that part of representational play times to be applied.
It would be fair if you play for ten hours a week, you sub stays as $15. You play for fourty hours, your sub should be $60.
If you can't accept or counter that with a decent business reason, you can't really champion a system that benefits those with no real life responsibilities over those that do have them.
It's not going to be long until the media starts putting pressure on game devs to be socially responsible and stop rewarding unhealthy amounts of game time.
I see what you're trying to say here but does that mean if I use my unlimited broadband service (we are paying for unlimited game time) more than the average person that I should be required to pay more for the service ? You & me are paying for unlimited game time so just because someone decides to play less it shouldn't mean they should instantly get the same reward as a player who is on all day. I have 4 children, a wife, a full time job (nights) so I only get to play early morning & weekends so not a biased opinion. Should I be compensated for the 5 days a week where I'm on at non-peak hours because there is next to no-one to group with, I definitely wouldn't expect that it is my choice to have the lifestyle I have & others shouldn't get punished because of that, if they play for 12 hours a day they should be better than me.
Anything that is unlimited will only really favour those that use it massivly. Those that use it less end up paying a premium to use it. I think there should be tiered subscriptions, rather than just unlimited.
Also I truly believe that anybody that spends 12 hours a day in a game needs the government or devs to change things to stop that happening. The law is only just starting to catch in that they need to acknowledge the impact online ability has on society.
That's comming from someone who was fire for gross miss-conduct due to being addicted to forums, well before people believed that was possible.
Some people do need help to break the adiction to MMO's, which is very real. But devs won't do anything to help the situation, until legislation is passed forcing them too. I don't think it wi be long before that happens6