Why ESO Should not have Classes, And how Classes Ruin the game

aleister · July 2014

They should go one way or another: either drop classes entirely or make them more distinct with unique advantages so we don't have so many robe/staff DKs fighting robe/staff sorcerers with NBs and templars picking the scraps. The current system is a broken compromise.

If you dropped classes altogether then with the current balance, all of the (effective) players would be clones of one another, so either way balance is crucial. There ought to be compelling reasons to go heavy armor/2H or medium/bow. If they fixed that, we'd see more diversity with or without classes.

Falmer · July 2014

Seems like its a min/maxer pvper problem... Hence. No. I like the classes.

Add in mix/maxer behavior to your "no-class" solution and what do you get? Yep, you get exactly EVERYONE spec'd exactly the same. You effectively have only one "class" then.

Look at the problems mix/maxers already are adding to the game. If you don't have staff and skirt they don't want you in Trials. All no classes would do, is if you don't have Skills X,Y, and Z, they don't want you in trials.

No thanks. PvP and Min/maxers should be the very LAST group of people that developers should be catering towards.

Wizzo91 · July 2014

As a TES fan I understand your concerns.

But remember this is not a TES game - primarily a MMO with TES lore.

I'll split this up into PVE and PVP:

PVP:

I've played a considerable amount of PVP after hitting VR12 and here the light / armour staff builds are not superior. This is a problem of PVE at the moment. Some of the best players I encountered were 2h sword templars, shield and sword / restostaff DKs or sneaky night blades taking me from behind or heavy armour sorcerers / battlemage builds .

There is a lot of diversity in builds in PVP at the moment, which will be increased even more after the next content patch hits.

The result of removing classes will be that a hand full of superior builds will discovered by min/maxers. Some people will follow and copy the builds yes - and from what I've read some of you do not care and will continue to play how you want to: These people will lose all initiative to play because under performing with their desired builds and will stop PVPing entirely.

A "balancing circle of death" will be the result for the devs. Balancing is always an issue but no classes would increase the work dramatically.

PVE:

We all are aware of the problem that stamina builds are lacking compared to magika builds at the moment. The devs are working on this at the moment. Take a look at the PTS, where the caps of the stats are being adjusted and the sets changed to improve the viability of stamina builds.

Removing classes here will dramatically affect group PVE. When solo questing your build does not matter, but in group PVE it does.

It already is hard for casual players to find groups for trials but having no classes will increase the difficulty if you not play with the "strongest" builds.

The result of removing classes will be that you will have ONE viable and accepted tanking build, ONE dps build and ONE healing build. You will have a hard time finding a group if you don't have the desired build.

This would be boring as ***, wouldn't it?

The bottom line is that a "no-class-system" is fine for solo gameplay or group questing, but will destroy MMO content like AvA or raids / trials (in ESO!).

Please do not add other games into this argument. We are discussing ESO how it is now and how it was developed and if a classless system would work.

(I also apologize if you don't comprehend everything - I'm not a native speaker. Feel free to ask.)

Mordria · July 2014

Falmer wrote: »

Seems like its a min/maxer pvper problem... Hence. No. I like the classes.

Add in mix/maxer behavior to your "no-class" solution and what do you get? Yep, you get exactly EVERYONE spec'd exactly the same. You effectively have only one "class" then.

Look at the problems mix/maxers already are adding to the game. If you don't have staff and skirt they don't want you in Trials. All no classes would do, is if you don't have Skills X,Y, and Z, they don't want you in trials.

No thanks. PvP and Min/maxers should be the very LAST group of people that developers should be catering towards.

I totally agree. How many PVErs do you see on the forums complaining about imbalance? Probably none because we could care less.

Anastasia · July 2014

Malpherian wrote: »

This was a much discussed debate in the Beta, and from what I remember the devs went with classes despite overwhelming player, and beta testers statements that they ruin the game.

Here's some of my reason they should do away with them or significantly modify the system while keeping classes in order to provide players the freedom to "choose" and do what they want to do:

1. Classes have always been in Elder Scrolls games, however you have the ability to train and learn and do anything you want as well in most. In ESO however this is not the case. If you want to be a Stabby Stabby and do it "Effectively" You MUST choose a Nightblade. Sure you can train up dual wielding on a different class. But you will never have the unique skills or abilities as a Nightblade, and you will never be as good of a Stabby Stabby, as a Night blade.

The same is ture for a Healer, if you want to be a Healer, you MUST roll a Templar. Or a Dragon Knight, if you want to tank. No other class except those specific classes can do their jobs as well as them. Want to summon cretures and do magic, well You HAVE to choose a Sorcerer.

Unless of course you want to suck and be laughed at, your Class determines what you HAVE to play in ESO, just like it does in every other MMO.

From what I remember of the Devs statements at E3 and on the websites, there goal was to simply have classes give players a push in the direction they wanted to go and allow them to switch what they do via weapons and armor to allow them to play how and whatever they liked. They specifically stated they did not want to lock players behind a class wall. They also stated they did not want to encourage alts.

Unfortunately for us, This is exactly what they did with the current system. And with only certain races being viable for certain Classes (Kajhit and Wood Elf for Nightblade for example are the only "real" choices for this class, And Orc and Imperial are the only "Real" choices for DK, because of the racial bonuses) the system is truly broken and does not even remotely do what it is supposed to, to such a degree that your options are almost pointless. As you are locked behind your class Trait wall for what you will actually be good at.

2. So How do we fix the class System? SIMPLE! They simply add another page which allows you (Switch out) and to put trait points into ANY skill lines in the game at your leisure and as you please (Whenever you re-spec). Classes will still remain in the game but their trait-lines can be switched out for other traits when you re-spec.

3. Wait.. how does that work?

* Currently each class has 3 trees, 1 ult per tree and 5 Abilities per tree, and 4 passives per tree. Your race has 4 Passives.

* When you respec, Not only will you get to redistribute your Trait points, but you will also get to redo your Skill trees (Or trait trees), and replace ANY of your traits in any of those trees with any traits in the game you desire.

* This method allows the player TRUE control over their character. This also keeps it balanced, as the only effects you will receive are the ones from your trees, just like now. This allows the player however to create their own custom classes, and tailor them to there needs. So no longer being forced to play a woodelf or Khajit for the best Stabby Stabby stealthy character for example.

Why this system is not currently in game, and why they did not do this to begin with is beyond me. As it would seem the obvious choice for an Elder Scrolls game, since the very spirit of these games is the player journey and control over their character.

I sincerely wonder why, during development the ZOS staff didn't just roll out a side-by-side dual game: one for MMO'rs and one for Console folks. Then they could have hedged their bets and deleted the one which didn't make enough profit. Bunch of total bs honestly.

Wizzo91 wrote: »

As a TES fan I understand your concerns.

But remember this is not a TES game - primarily a MMO with TES lore.

I'll split this up into PVE and PVP:

PVP:

I've played a considerable amount of PVP after hitting VR12 and here the light / armour staff builds are not superior. This is a problem of PVE at the moment. Some of the best players I encountered were 2h sword templars, shield and sword / restostaff DKs or sneaky night blades taking me from behind or heavy armour sorcerers / battlemage builds .

There is a lot of diversity in builds in PVP at the moment, which will be increased even more after the next content patch hits.

The result of removing classes will be that a hand full of superior builds will discovered by min/maxers. Some people will follow and copy the builds yes - and from what I've read some of you do not care and will continue to play how you want to: These people will lose all initiative to play because under performing with their desired builds and will stop PVPing entirely.

A "balancing circle of death" will be the result for the devs. Balancing is always an issue but no classes would increase the work dramatically.

PVE:

We all are aware of the problem that stamina builds are lacking compared to magika builds at the moment. The devs are working on this at the moment. Take a look at the PTS, where the caps of the stats are being adjusted and the sets changed to improve the viability of stamina builds.

Removing classes here will dramatically affect group PVE. When solo questing your build does not matter, but in group PVE it does.

It already is hard for casual players to find groups for trials but having no classes will increase the difficulty if you not play with the "strongest" builds.

The result of removing classes will be that you will have ONE viable and accepted tanking build, ONE dps build and ONE healing build. You will have a hard time finding a group if you don't have the desired build.

This would be boring as ***, wouldn't it?

The bottom line is that a "no-class-system" is fine for solo gameplay or group questing, but will destroy MMO content like AvA or raids / trials (in ESO!).

Please do not add other games into this argument. We are discussing ESO how it is now and how it was developed and if a classless system would work.

(I also apologize if you don't comprehend everything - I'm not a native speaker. Feel free to ask.)

Great explanation Malpherian!

Unfortunately, those asking for this are primarily made up of solo-centric players. I am certain they know and understand exactly what you are laying out; it simply is opposite of their desires. $:\$

Aeratus · July 2014

Malpherian wrote: »

And yes a Templar will out heal you any day of the week. It's be proven repeatedly with HPS charts. Whether you can "Heal" or not is irrelevant in the current system since you "can". The point is that you can not do it "As well" as a templar, because you do not have access to the templars skills or healing passives, Thus limiting your NB in his options for healing.

Wrong. Templars do not have the magicka regeneration of NBs and Sorcs.

However, the balance in healing has changed recently.

At the time of craglorn patch, it was Sorc = NB > Templar for healing, and templar was only good for burst heals.

Right now, the balance is better.

yelloweyedemon · July 2014

Yeah.. eeh.. no.

You can't compare ES single player games to an ES MMO.

Malpherian · July 2014

Still even if they keep classes just 4 is BS we at least need more choices.

Rescorla_ESO · July 2014

Malpherian wrote: »

This was a much discussed debate in the Beta, and from what I remember the devs went with classes despite overwhelming player, and beta testers statements that they ruin the game.

You are stating your opinion as fact and even going so far as exaggerating.

I was in the closed beta on PTS and while there were some discussions on the design decision to include classes in TESO, there was no overwhelming sentiment from the PTS testers that having classes in TESO would ruin the game.

Malpherian · July 2014

Rescorla_ESO wrote: »

Malpherian wrote: »

This was a much discussed debate in the Beta, and from what I remember the devs went with classes despite overwhelming player, and beta testers statements that they ruin the game.

You are stating your opinion as fact and even going so far as exaggerating.

I was in the closed beta on PTS and while there were some discussions on the design decision to include classes in TESO, there was no overwhelming sentiment from the PTS testers that having classes in TESO would ruin the game.

Personally I would count entire threads of 100's of posts (being repeatedly posted every single month by new people) of people threatening not to buy the game if it releases with classes, and multiple discussions on how it breaks lore,mechanics, and TES "soul" or the essence of character development and the game itself..... Overwhelming.

* A couple of posts, is some concern.

* Regular posts on the subject by a few individuals every BT weekend classifies as "some discussion"

* Continuous massive threads every BT weekend with 100s of posts and complaints as well as multiple sub thread discussions on the matter including 100's of threats to not buy the game = Overwhelming.

poodlemasterb16_ESO · July 2014

Malpherian wrote: »

Rescorla_ESO wrote: »

Malpherian wrote: »

This was a much discussed debate in the Beta, and from what I remember the devs went with classes despite overwhelming player, and beta testers statements that they ruin the game.

You are stating your opinion as fact and even going so far as exaggerating.

I was in the closed beta on PTS and while there were some discussions on the design decision to include classes in TESO, there was no overwhelming sentiment from the PTS testers that having classes in TESO would ruin the game.

Personally I would count entire threads of 100's of posts (being repeatedly posted every single month by new people) of people threatening not to buy the game if it releases with classes, and multiple discussions on how it breaks lore,mechanics, and TES "soul" or the essence of character development and the game itself..... Overwhelming.

* A couple of posts, is some concern.

* Regular posts on the subject by a few individuals every BT weekend classifies as "some discussion"

* Continuous massive threads every BT weekend with 100s of posts and complaints as well as multiple sub thread discussions on the matter including 100's of threats to not buy the game = Overwhelming.

How did you ever make it this far? You must love pain.

Now I really enjoy classes.

Rescorla_ESO · July 2014

Malpherian wrote: »

Rescorla_ESO wrote: »

Malpherian wrote: »

This was a much discussed debate in the Beta, and from what I remember the devs went with classes despite overwhelming player, and beta testers statements that they ruin the game.

You are stating your opinion as fact and even going so far as exaggerating.

I was in the closed beta on PTS and while there were some discussions on the design decision to include classes in TESO, there was no overwhelming sentiment from the PTS testers that having classes in TESO would ruin the game.

Personally I would count entire threads of 100's of posts (being repeatedly posted every single month by new people) of people threatening not to buy the game if it releases with classes, and multiple discussions on how it breaks lore,mechanics, and TES "soul" or the essence of character development and the game itself..... Overwhelming.

* A couple of posts, is some concern.

* Regular posts on the subject by a few individuals every BT weekend classifies as "some discussion"

* Continuous massive threads every BT weekend with 100s of posts and complaints as well as multiple sub thread discussions on the matter including 100's of threats to not buy the game = Overwhelming.

Feel free to provide a few links to the PTS forums of these threads you say exist.

moxiesauce · July 2014

Malpherian wrote: »

WhiskeyRiver.AZub17_ESO wrote: »

I like my NB,and I am a Nord,at level 35.Nothing says you cant be a different race or that.However I do not like that to use either dual weilding or a one handed and a shield,I lose all my abilities.That's not cool.

That's my point. I am sure your Nord makes a fine Nightblade, but do to the games mechanic your Nord Nightblade will never be as good as a Khajit or Woodelf Nightblade.

Which is sad. and the reason this system needs to either go away, or be fixed.

Never be as good? The race you choose certainly has an impact but not one so great that it completely pales in comparison. It's literally just minor magicka/health/stam etc. in racials, the weapon leveling trait will even become obsolete once 50 is reached. Reguardless a woodelf NB wont ALWAYS out play or DPS a nord or other race, the differences are too small.

The system of respecing and being able to trade out you're class tree's for another's is a great idea, while their at it they should also bring in more world tree's for sneaking, athletics/escape, lock picking, even fishing lol.

OrangeTheCat · July 2014

So OP, seems you are advocating a min/max-ish system because you say things like 'to be the best NB you must be a wood elf or kahjit'. So wouldn't your changes result in there being exactly three builds in the whole damn game:one for tanks, one for dps, one for heals and that's it? Would that be a good thing?

Aeratus · July 2014

OrangeTheCat wrote: »

So OP, seems you are advocating a min/max-ish system because you say things like 'to be the best NB you must be a wood elf or kahjit'. So wouldn't your changes result in there being exactly three builds in the whole damn game:one for tanks, one for dps, one for heals and that's it? Would that be a good thing?

Actually, the best race for NB right now is Dunmer, Breton, or Altmer, since magicka NB is better than stamina NB at the moment. Just saying...

Malpherian · July 2014

OrangeTheCat wrote: »

So OP, seems you are advocating a min/max-ish system because you say things like 'to be the best NB you must be a wood elf or kahjit'. So wouldn't your changes result in there being exactly three builds in the whole damn game:one for tanks, one for dps, one for heals and that's it? Would that be a good thing?

I'm not really sure how you equate over 500 traits, passives and other skills to choose from (some of which are very similar with different effects), and the player having the option to choose from all of them, meaning their would only be 3 classes or 3 builds.

Your presumption is both asinine, and completely irrelevant with that many choices. Will some people pick the very best for their playstyle and build? Absolutely. Does this mean these are the best 3-5 skills out of 742 which are available?

Not even remotely.

As another poster stated, list me the 5 best skills in the game, I am positive I will disagree. Because those skills will depend on 3 things:

1. Your playstyle

2. How effective they are related to #1

3. Personal Desire (Using magic/elements as an example, some like poison, some like fire, some like lightning, etc, and ALL have VERY different effects on the target.) And one or the other will be better or worse depending on... #1

Min/Maxer fears are only valid in limited systems, where the number of choices only allows for a very small specific number of builds which create FOTM's. Like we have currently in ESO. When you have so many choices for builds which create BILLIONS of permutations and options. This becomes irrelevant and an impossibility.

Honestly it's simple math. If you had years WITH NO CHANGES TO SKILLS OR THE GAME you might find an FOTM. Maybe.

Honestly I think most of the complaints against this come from Min/Maxer Leet trolls who don;t want to lose their OP builds or be challenged. I mean the fallacy of the statements made by some of you all against this, from a simple statistical point of view is ludicrous.

nerevarine1138 · July 2014

Malpherian wrote: »

No, I didn't think so. There's plenty of stuff YOU can not do "just fine" or even at "all" on your NB. And yes a Templar will out heal you any day of the week. It's be proven repeatedly with HPS charts. Whether you can "Heal" or not is irrelevant in the current system since you "can". The point is that you can not do it "As well" as a templar, because you do not have access to the templars skills or healing passives, Thus limiting your NB in his options for healing.

Let me rephrase: I will stand toe to toe with your Templar, and I will be the better healer. And why? Because I understand how to make my Nightblade work as a healer, and you have already fixed your mind on the most narrow definition of class roles.

poodlemasterb16_ESO · July 2014

Aeratus wrote: »

OrangeTheCat wrote: »

So OP, seems you are advocating a min/max-ish system because you say things like 'to be the best NB you must be a wood elf or kahjit'. So wouldn't your changes result in there being exactly three builds in the whole damn game:one for tanks, one for dps, one for heals and that's it? Would that be a good thing?

Actually, the best race for NB right now is Dunmer, Breton, or Altmer, since magicka NB is better than stamina NB at the moment. Just saying...

My Kajiit NB goes out with both Magic and Stamina enchants on his armor. His bling too, is enchanted, especially for him. His food and drink give him a significant advantage from a numbers point of view. I can do that for any of my chars. I am not sure but as my little army levels, I think I can do almost anything I want and make it work.

indytims_ESO · July 2014

I disagree with the OP's thoughts.

There is no 'real race' to play certain classes with.... and that goes against your logic about classes 'ruining' the game. Any race can play any class effectively, and I believe racial 'bonuses' existed in TES, didn't they?

Further, the idea of classes doesn't ruin the game. The only time classes even remotely 'affect' other people an regards to imbalance - is in PVP, and since PVP does not exist in TES games, well... there you have the big difference.

Most of the unhappiness that I see posted in the forum relates to 'class balance' - the notion that everyone wants every class to be perfectly balanced. That's fine and understandable, even if most of our unhappiness derives from comparing ourselves (and our classes) to others.

Just as with the ability for anyone to use any weapons/armor they want gives everyone the freedom to do as they wish, the 'classes' I think represent a very watered-down model of the 'pregen' classes of TES games. I am not saying it was the wisest thing for them to do, but it's here and I assume it's here to stay. Debating whether it is 'good', 'bad', or whatever is kinda pointless. You either accept it and endure it... or not.

spinedoc · July 2014

My vote is for classless as well, being short on time I hate alts these days but feel the need to experience every class. I think I'd get much more intimate with the game if I only had one character to work on instead of splitting my time.

I think the major argument is we would have a super class. But at that point isn't it a dev issue? For the people who worry about a super class, why aren't you worried about a super sorcerer class, super Templar class, super dk class, super nb class?!? At the end it's the job of the devs to balance the game so multiple options make sense, plus there will ALWAYS be people who min/max, nothing will change that.

Now what might add to the coolness of a classless game would be on the fly spec changes. EQ2 had this and it was so amazing to be able to experiment and adjust your spec on the fly, the devs took full advantage of this and made many encounters require changing specs like this. This strategizing and experimentation was a great source of fun IMO.

Aeratus · July 2014

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Malpherian wrote: »

No, I didn't think so. There's plenty of stuff YOU can not do "just fine" or even at "all" on your NB. And yes a Templar will out heal you any day of the week. It's be proven repeatedly with HPS charts. Whether you can "Heal" or not is irrelevant in the current system since you "can". The point is that you can not do it "As well" as a templar, because you do not have access to the templars skills or healing passives, Thus limiting your NB in his options for healing.

Let me rephrase: I will stand toe to toe with your Templar, and I will be the better healer. And why? Because I understand how to make my Nightblade work as a healer, and you have already fixed your mind on the most narrow definition of class roles.

It's unfortunate that the OP has made many incorrect statements, like how other classes can't heal as well as Templars (which is incorrect), and how other classes can't tank as well as DKs (which is incorrect for pve, although DKs have higher survivability in pvp but not necessarily tied to tanking role). Even the statement that only Sorcs can summon pets is incorrect, lol, since NBs can summon as well.

However, I do agree with his main point in that I also think that we should get rid of the classes, because this is an Elder Scrolls game.

Furthermore, the OP is correct to the extent that there are some class imbalances to some extent. For example, DKs can't heal as well as the other three classes. Furthermore, Templar dual wield isn't as good as NB dual wield, for example. These issues would be avoided if we had no classes, or if classes are flexibly changed.

kip_silverwolf · August 2014

DeLindsay wrote: »

Classes in ESO aren't ruining the game, but I agree they shouldn't have been put in from day one. And many need to understand the correct definition for classes in the case of ESO and TES games.

Open Classes - TES Games.

Closed Classes - ESO/most MMO's.

Open Class systems allow one to literally be anything they want to be with any character they create, as well as completely change to something different down the road. ZoS should've chose this system for ESO.

Only 'Oblivion' & 'Skyrim' have 'open classes'. In all the other 3 ES games restrictions applied with skills & abilities that were far more harsh than what we have in TESO.
e.g. if you chose to be a mage in either Arena, Daggerfall or Morrowind, you could not wear heavy armour. Likewise, if you chose to be a warrior, you could not learn spells. (can't remember though if this included scrolls or not??)

My point is that, whether you love them or hate them, the class & skill system of TESO is not exclusive to the ES franchise. It is simply less restrictive than the first 3 single ES games, but not as open as the last 2.

That being said, I like it the way it is with shared abilities. I can have my mage wield a 2H while wearing heavy armour, if I so chose or my warrior run around in medium armour throwing spells.

dietlime · August 2014

Malpherian wrote: »

This was a much discussed debate in the Beta, and from what I remember the devs went with classes despite overwhelming player, and beta testers statements that they ruin the game.

Here's some of my reason they should do away with them or significantly modify the system while keeping classes in order to provide players the freedom to "choose" and do what they want to do:

1. Classes have always been in Elder Scrolls games, however you have the ability to train and learn and do anything you want as well in most. In ESO however this is not the case. If you want to be a Stabby Stabby and do it "Effectively" You MUST choose a Nightblade. Sure you can train up dual wielding on a different class. But you will never have the unique skills or abilities as a Nightblade, and you will never be as good of a Stabby Stabby, as a Night blade.

The same is ture for a Healer, if you want to be a Healer, you MUST roll a Templar. Or a Dragon Knight, if you want to tank. No other class except those specific classes can do their jobs as well as them. Want to summon cretures and do magic, well You HAVE to choose a Sorcerer.

Unless of course you want to suck and be laughed at, your Class determines what you HAVE to play in ESO, just like it does in every other MMO.

From what I remember of the Devs statements at E3 and on the websites, there goal was to simply have classes give players a push in the direction they wanted to go and allow them to switch what they do via weapons and armor to allow them to play how and whatever they liked. They specifically stated they did not want to lock players behind a class wall. They also stated they did not want to encourage alts.

Unfortunately for us, This is exactly what they did with the current system. And with only certain races being viable for certain Classes (Kajhit and Wood Elf for Nightblade for example are the only "real" choices for this class, And Orc and Imperial are the only "Real" choices for DK, because of the racial bonuses) the system is truly broken and does not even remotely do what it is supposed to, to such a degree that your options are almost pointless. As you are locked behind your class Trait wall for what you will actually be good at.

2. So How do we fix the class System? SIMPLE! They simply add another page which allows you (Switch out) and to put trait points into ANY skill lines in the game at your leisure and as you please (Whenever you re-spec). Classes will still remain in the game but their trait-lines can be switched out for other traits when you re-spec.

3. Wait.. how does that work?

* Currently each class has 3 trees, 1 ult per tree and 5 Abilities per tree, and 4 passives per tree. Your race has 4 Passives.

* When you respec, Not only will you get to redistribute your Trait points, but you will also get to redo your Skill trees (Or trait trees), and replace ANY of your traits in any of those trees with any traits in the game you desire.

* This method allows the player TRUE control over their character. This also keeps it balanced, as the only effects you will receive are the ones from your trees, just like now. This allows the player however to create their own custom classes, and tailor them to there needs. So no longer being forced to play a woodelf or Khajit for the best Stabby Stabby stealthy character for example.

Why this system is not currently in game, and why they did not do this to begin with is beyond me. As it would seem the obvious choice for an Elder Scrolls game, since the very spirit of these games is the player journey and control over their character.

Spellcrafting is going to help your position a lot.

Enkil · August 2014

kip_silverwolf wrote: »

DeLindsay wrote: »

Classes in ESO aren't ruining the game, but I agree they shouldn't have been put in from day one. And many need to understand the correct definition for classes in the case of ESO and TES games.

Open Classes - TES Games.

Closed Classes - ESO/most MMO's.

Open Class systems allow one to literally be anything they want to be with any character they create, as well as completely change to something different down the road. ZoS should've chose this system for ESO.

Only 'Oblivion' & 'Skyrim' have 'open classes'. In all the other 3 ES games restrictions applied with skills & abilities that were far more harsh than what we have in TESO.
e.g. if you chose to be a mage in either Arena, Daggerfall or Morrowind, you could not wear heavy armour. Likewise, if you chose to be a warrior, you could not learn spells. (can't remember though if this included scrolls or not??)

My point is that, whether you love them or hate them, the class & skill system of TESO is not exclusive to the ES franchise. It is simply less restrictive than the first 3 single ES games, but not as open as the last 2.

That being said, I like it the way it is with shared abilities. I can have my mage wield a 2H while wearing heavy armour, if I so chose or my warrior run around in medium armour throwing spells.

Incorrect. Morrowind classes did not limit you in any way. Just think of the battlemage...

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Battlemage#Battlemage

The games have grown more and more popular since Morrowind and the "open classes" have become an iconic and beloved feature for many players.

dietlime · August 2014

Oh bro, Morrowind classes limited you heavily through most of the plot. They determined what you were capable of when you started playing, and for probably many hours afterwards barring cheesy trainer moves.

With the spell crafting system adding lots of new abilities to every character, this legitimate complaint will be fairly well addressed I think.

dietlime · August 2014

"The same is ture for a Healer, if you want to be a Healer, you MUST roll a Templar. Or a Dragon Knight, if you want to tank. No other class except those specific classes can do their jobs as well as them. Want to summon cretures and do magic, well You HAVE to choose a Sorcerer."

This is totally and utterly completely irrefutably wrong. All classes make good healers, all you need to heal is high mana regen and a resto staff. Soon, everyone will be able to conjure stuff. Templars make awesome tanks, too: people just haven't figured it out.

Enkil · August 2014

dietlime wrote: »

Oh bro, Morrowind classes limited you heavily through most of the plot. They determined what you were capable of when you started playing, and for probably many hours afterwards barring cheesy trainer moves.

You are taking about the player's choices limiting his/her early effectiveness. The game does not put those limits there.

You could also just make your own class and choose the skills you want bonuses in but still be able to utilize every ability/spell and max every skill line..... No limits...

amm7sb14_ESO · August 2014

pronkg wrote: »

Don't forget that in TES oblivion you had to choose major skills. And other skills were capped to lvl 75

Classes is awesome. I even hope they develop more special skills for classes. To have people make more choices that really matter.the game is way too easy at this moment and none rewarding.

Without those classes pvp will be useless. Heck people being able to wield everything is the major issue in this game atm. People soloing every group dungeon etc.

What? No skills were capped at 75 in Oblivion.

And also, to the person who said this is just opening up to the best skill trees from all classes - not if you can only pick 3 different skill trees. You just pick whichever trees you wanna level up.

I like this idea, but not for the reasons the OP stated. A Nightblade isn't gimped for not being a Wood Elf or a Khajiit. A healer isn't gimped for not being a Templar. That's just completely inaccurate.

Faulgor · August 2014

The introduction of spellcrafting makes class division pointless, anyway. It doesn't fit the rest of the character system, and should probably be removed in the long run to streamline the whole system. However, I don't think the OP's suggestion would be the best option for this.

That a classless system will lead to one build for every role is also short-sighted in my opinion, as the effectiveness of a certain bulid depends largely on the situation, which there are certainly more of than the 3 traditional roles. A melee DPS character might, for example, have a tough time against an enemy with high defense, where a magic-oriented DPS would do better. This could be said for different elemental damages and resistances, too, as well as boss mechanics that require efficiency of a certain attribute or use of specific spells. E.g., some PvE encounters might require sustained healing, where others would benefit from burst healing.
Naturally, PvP should incorporate some of these rock-paper-scissors-elements as well.

If one build is enough for everything, it's not necessarily the fault of the character system, but the lack of diverse challenges and tasks in the game itself.

Spottswoode · August 2014

GnatB wrote: »

IMO, classes aren't classes in this game. They're spell schools. Just about any "class" can fill any role.

Though, I think it would have been real cool if instead of lumping the spell schools in groups of 3, you could have chosen which 3 spell schools to be trained in. Say, Siphoning, Restoring Light, and Daedric Summoning.

A single build-a-class that was structured this way would fix most of the class whining and allow for the most versatility. It also wouldn't terribly imbalance the game the same way adding a completely new class could. That way, people can have some predefined traits in their builds or complete freedom with it.

Wolfshead wrote: »

Only think i don't like with this whole skills tree thing is armor skills tree for with all those passive abilities the are force player to use light armor if you want to do ok dmg as Sorcerer or be good a healing, medium armor if want do ok dmg as Nightblade and so on that is what i think is worst of whole skills tree for if want to be a "combat mage" use heavy armor and 2 hand sword i can't for all the bonus for cast are in light armor skills tree which basically make medium and heavy armor use for Sorcerer useless and so on.

The freedom of choose what armor you want is really limited just as in any other mmo and that is in my mind one off big fault in skills tree other then that i think skills and race racial bonuses don't really matter that much just look at WoW the race racial bonuses have not work that good at all for years and now the are talk about remove them all together.

I'll have to disagree on the armor and equipment point. It makes sense for tanks to wear heavy armor and mages to wear robes to maximize the potential of those specific roles. (This is also, by far, not the only MMO that does that.) That being said, it's not the only way to go about those roles. You can have a Sorc tank that can heal and switch directly to direct damage dealing without switching gear at all. While it won't be at its maximum potential, you have to sacrifice much of the versatility in that setup to reach that max.
Perhaps, instead, we could ask for more abilities that support those predefined roles that are independent of the equipment trees.

dietlime wrote: »

"The same is ture for a Healer, if you want to be a Healer, you MUST roll a Templar. Or a Dragon Knight, if you want to tank. No other class except those specific classes can do their jobs as well as them. Want to summon cretures and do magic, well You HAVE to choose a Sorcerer."

This is totally and utterly completely irrefutably wrong. All classes make good healers, all you need to heal is high mana regen and a resto staff. Soon, everyone will be able to conjure stuff. Templars make awesome tanks, too: people just haven't figured it out.

Seconded. Most of the problems in this thread deal with the perception of a predefined role. A lot of those people just haven't been brave enough to experiment out of it to achieve successful results. By the way, failure is the most frequent result of an experiment. You will actually learn more from a bad build than a good one.