Why ESO Should not have Classes, And how Classes Ruin the game

DeLindsay

Classes in ESO aren't ruining the game, but I agree they shouldn't have been put in from day one. And many need to understand the correct definition for classes in the case of ESO and TES games.

Open Classes - TES Games.

Closed Classes - ESO/most MMO's.

Open Class systems allow one to literally be anything they want to be with any character they create, as well as completely change to something different down the road. ZoS should've chose this system for ESO.

Closed Class systems like ESO still allow you to do mostly want you want but you are locked out of Class specific abilities. In most MMO's you have NO abilities that are shared between Classes, so at least ESO has that going for it.

If ESO were an Open Class system one could for example start a Wood Elf that has Bolt Escape, Dart Talons, Cleansing Ritual, Shadow Cloak, (insert 5th ability here) + (insert w/e Ultimate of choice here). Not that the above setup would do much good but we'd have the ability to do so. This is what the player community wanted ESO to be like but ZoS chose a Closed Class system (with a twist, the weapon/armor trees) for whatever their own reasoning was behind it. For good or ill, it is what it is. It doesn't ruin the game but it might have been better if done differently. Who knows, maybe ZoS will scrap the Class system down the road, you never know.

Wifeaggro13

Malpherian wrote: »

This was a much discussed debate in the Beta, and from what I remember the devs went with classes despite overwhelming player, and beta testers statements that they ruin the game.

Here's some of my reason they should do away with them or significantly modify the system while keeping classes in order to provide players the freedom to "choose" and do what they want to do:

1. Classes have always been in Elder Scrolls games, however you have the ability to train and learn and do anything you want as well in most. In ESO however this is not the case. If you want to be a Stabby Stabby and do it "Effectively" You MUST choose a Nightblade. Sure you can train up dual wielding on a different class. But you will never have the unique skills or abilities as a Nightblade, and you will never be as good of a Stabby Stabby, as a Night blade.

The same is ture for a Healer, if you want to be a Healer, you MUST roll a Templar. Or a Dragon Knight, if you want to tank. No other class except those specific classes can do their jobs as well as them. Want to summon cretures and do magic, well You HAVE to choose a Sorcerer.

Unless of course you want to suck and be laughed at, your Class determines what you HAVE to play in ESO, just like it does in every other MMO.

From what I remember of the Devs statements at E3 and on the websites, there goal was to simply have classes give players a push in the direction they wanted to go and allow them to switch what they do via weapons and armor to allow them to play how and whatever they liked. They specifically stated they did not want to lock players behind a class wall. They also stated they did not want to encourage alts.

Unfortunately for us, This is exactly what they did with the current system. And with only certain races being viable for certain Classes (Kajhit and Wood Elf for Nightblade for example are the only "real" choices for this class, And Orc and Imperial are the only "Real" choices for DK, because of the racial bonuses) the system is truly broken and does not even remotely do what it is supposed to, to such a degree that your options are almost pointless. As you are locked behind your class Trait wall for what you will actually be good at.

2. So How do we fix the class System? SIMPLE! They simply add another page which allows you (Switch out) and to put trait points into ANY skill lines in the game at your leisure and as you please (Whenever you re-spec). Classes will still remain in the game but their trait-lines can be switched out for other traits when you re-spec.

3. Wait.. how does that work?

* Currently each class has 3 trees, 1 ult per tree and 5 Abilities per tree, and 4 passives per tree. Your race has 4 Passives.

* When you respec, Not only will you get to redistribute your Trait points, but you will also get to redo your Skill trees (Or trait trees), and replace ANY of your traits in any of those trees with any traits in the game you desire.

* This method allows the player TRUE control over their character. This also keeps it balanced, as the only effects you will receive are the ones from your trees, just like now. This allows the player however to create their own custom classes, and tailor them to there needs. So no longer being forced to play a woodelf or Khajit for the best Stabby Stabby stealthy character for example.

Why this system is not currently in game, and why they did not do this to begin with is beyond me. As it would seem the obvious choice for an Elder Scrolls game, since the very spirit of these games is the player journey and control over their character.

I could not disagree with you more. After having played several MMO's that had completely open skill systems Classes and roles are far superior. The instant gratifcation i want to be everything and have everything now!!!! mentality has ruined MMO's and the soul they once had. MMO's were fun because they provided dynamics that made us rely on one another and the strengths that individual had. it simulated reality in some way shape or form.

this i want to do everything , though sounds good on paper does not translate well into actuall mechanics. case and point even with this game system End game is really just one role DPS. DPS with a taunt DPS with a CC and DPS with a few heals.except some VR Bosses that require pure healing. Games that provded more classes bigger group and more roles were far more complex combat mechanics and Communities lasted longer as each person needed the other .

Wifeaggro13

emeraldbay wrote: »

Wolfshead wrote: »

Only think i don't like with this whole skills tree thing is armor skills tree for with all those passive abilities the are force player to use light armor if you want to do ok dmg as Sorcerer or be good a healing, medium armor if want do ok dmg as Nightblade and so on that is what i think is worst of whole skills tree for if want to be a "combat mage" use heavy armor and 2 hand sword i can't for all the bonus for cast are in light armor skills tree which basically make medium and heavy armor use for Sorcerer useless and so on.

This is why you use more than one type of armor. Split it as evenly as possible- 4 pieces of your main armor choice, 3 of your secondary armor choice. Then you can invest in passives from both skill lines and get both bonuses. They won't be quite as powerful as if you had a full set, but it's a good trade- more versatility for less raw power.

Edit: On that note, I like the classes because, as others have stated, any class can play any role with enough effort. It just takes someone who's willing to break the "holy trinity" of modern MMOs. Think outside the box. Classes add diversity without sacrificing functionality.

your not in VR content are you. Light armor is the only armor you need to wear period. actually in VR content if your wearing anything other then light your gimping yourself.

Blackwidow

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

emeraldbay wrote: »

Wolfshead wrote: »

Only think i don't like with this whole skills tree thing is armor skills tree for with all those passive abilities the are force player to use light armor if you want to do ok dmg as Sorcerer or be good a healing, medium armor if want do ok dmg as Nightblade and so on that is what i think is worst of whole skills tree for if want to be a "combat mage" use heavy armor and 2 hand sword i can't for all the bonus for cast are in light armor skills tree which basically make medium and heavy armor use for Sorcerer useless and so on.

This is why you use more than one type of armor. Split it as evenly as possible- 4 pieces of your main armor choice, 3 of your secondary armor choice. Then you can invest in passives from both skill lines and get both bonuses. They won't be quite as powerful as if you had a full set, but it's a good trade- more versatility for less raw power.

Edit: On that note, I like the classes because, as others have stated, any class can play any role with enough effort. It just takes someone who's willing to break the "holy trinity" of modern MMOs. Think outside the box. Classes add diversity without sacrificing functionality.

your not in VR content are you. Light armor is the only armor you need to wear period. actually in VR content if your wearing anything other then light your gimping yourself.

Because (almost) everything is mana based.

That is the root of the problem with balance in this game.

Skills should be evenly split between mana/stamina and even use life force for some spells.

NobleX35

Surinen wrote: »

GothicPython wrote: »

Thalmor snipmer

why mmos require more balancing than singleplayer games?
it is the other way around. overmind of the mass is much more vulnerable than person's one. you can feed mob with the needles.

there are few horrible things that may happen to TES. ESO shows few, with obligatory classes being atrocious work of higher dysfunctionality echelons. limit that stands against orderly freedom is an evil itself.
TES is not only a 'free role' game but free style game. you mix magick types the way you want.

people underestimate role of aesthetics: how your spells look and how they act is cosmically important!

You're post is very poorly worded, and makes it somewhat hard to understand what you're trying to convey here...

As far as the first statement is concerned - MMO's absolutely require more balancing than single player games. The simple reason for this is that you're choices and the games mechanics affect other people other than yourself.

In Skyrim Melee was 10x better than Magic because enchants vastly increased the damage that your weapons could do, were-as the only way to increase your damage for your magic spells was to increase your skill in those correlating magicka lines. This imbalance never truly mattered, because you were the sole inhabitant in the world and whether you went melee or magicka made no real difference and didn't have an effect on anyone else other than yourself. In an MMO however, this promotes a serious issue (which is one we currently have btw) because these imbalances effect everyone.

Wifeaggro13

Blackwidow wrote: »

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

emeraldbay wrote: »

Wolfshead wrote: »

Only think i don't like with this whole skills tree thing is armor skills tree for with all those passive abilities the are force player to use light armor if you want to do ok dmg as Sorcerer or be good a healing, medium armor if want do ok dmg as Nightblade and so on that is what i think is worst of whole skills tree for if want to be a "combat mage" use heavy armor and 2 hand sword i can't for all the bonus for cast are in light armor skills tree which basically make medium and heavy armor use for Sorcerer useless and so on.

This is why you use more than one type of armor. Split it as evenly as possible- 4 pieces of your main armor choice, 3 of your secondary armor choice. Then you can invest in passives from both skill lines and get both bonuses. They won't be quite as powerful as if you had a full set, but it's a good trade- more versatility for less raw power.

Edit: On that note, I like the classes because, as others have stated, any class can play any role with enough effort. It just takes someone who's willing to break the "holy trinity" of modern MMOs. Think outside the box. Classes add diversity without sacrificing functionality.

your not in VR content are you. Light armor is the only armor you need to wear period. actually in VR content if your wearing anything other then light your gimping yourself.

Because (almost) everything is mana based.

That is the root of the problem with balance in this game.

Skills should be evenly split between mana/stamina and even use life force for some spells.

There are several more issues . Heavy armor has same armor cap as light . mitigation is the same for all armor.Health cap is the same in all armors as well so no benefit to health pools if you wear heavy. Now about melee abilites, they are throttled by poor animations and hit boxes , half the time your melee abilities will not even hit a boss unless your almost inside them. Several things wrong besides class skills being purely magica based.

Surinen

GothicPython wrote: »

You're post is very poorly worded, and makes it somewhat hard to understand what you're trying to convey here...

As far as the first statement is concerned - MMO's absolutely require more balancing than single player games. The simple reason for this is that you're choices and the games mechanics affect other people other than yourself.

In Skyrim Melee was 10x better than Magic because enchants vastly increased the damage that your weapons could do, were-as the only way to increase your damage for your magic spells was to increase your skill in those correlating magicka lines. This imbalance never truly mattered, because you were the sole inhabitant in the world and whether you went melee or magicka made no real difference and didn't have an effect on anyone else other than yourself. In an MMO however, this promotes a serious issue (which is one we currently have btw) because these imbalances effect everyone.

such is the way of a purist like myself. away from the pomp

mmos by their very nature trap people inside their ill schemes; by allowing human bonds to be formed. this very thing keeps players together, and the new content. I would not speak about balancing it but buffing. in mmo's there is only one category of characters: "underpowered', sole reason of tears and desperation. buff thing, throw new content and people will be happy. there is no such thing as 'balance' in video games

in singleplayer TES nobody cared about anything but lore and exploration.
problem lays with generic mmo players who seek their barrel to pollute.

majority of people are not leaving because of pvp imbalance but lack of content and difficulties coming from VR [strength of mobs vs character's power].

in the internet age, there is no place that you will be safe from someone's else affection, whether it will be post on forum or video; you see other folks gear and damage and min max and speedrun time and achievements. so yes, it has affected you. unarmed legendary skyrim run would not be as damage efficient as dual wield one. singleplayer games depend on their content much more than mmo where human interaction is in itself a curse or gift if you prefer. attachement, human relations are the main force behind mmos.

TES should remain true to its roots and stay away from generic mmos. universe>mechanics.

Nyghthowler

Shaun98ca2 wrote: »

jpp wrote: »

I will add two points to why making ESO class skills was mistake:
1. Balance - we had perfect example of DK vs NB, where DK was so overpowered. So many random choices of new players turned to unhappy NB players and easy win DK players. It forced ZOS to nerf DK this maked unhappy DK players but it did not make happy NB - means twice loss
2. Many casuals might play a bit still do not have time to level up second character/third, so they are bound to one class only. I see in this discussions "if someone wants to be Naght blade...", but the fact is that most people do not want to be nightblades! They want to try as much as is possible in game and just picked up nightblade by some impulse when creating first character, so if they could try to be healers, tanks - why not? There might be situations when there is lack of some skills (for example templars) in guild.

A classless game can still suffer from balance issues. In fact I would believe balance issues to be worse in a classless game as everybody would be "forced" into the FoTM build making other options irrelevant. We already see it in this game WITH classes removing the classes would just make it worse.

The classes in this game make it harder to make a "bad build". While still highly possible to do so it just become more prevalent in a classless game picking the "wrong skills" and screwing yourself in long run.

The addition of spell crafting should open up the freedom even more for this game. The devs KNOW the concerns and issues players feel with the system and are working to alleviate that feeling.

I disagree. More options in class build opens up the game that much more in going the direction of Play how you want to. If you create an untenable build then you pay to respec, just as you would now.

As for the Devs, at this point I truly get the impression they are trying to patch a leaking dam with Elmer's glue and then wondering why water keeps coming out.

Lynx7386

Honestly, I would have preferred if they had kept the traditional skill lines from other elder scroll games.

When you start the game, you get to pick one magic line and one weapon line and one armor line in character creation. After entering the game, all the other lines can be unlocked through quests or books or training at NPCs, and then you level them up just like you can with the class or weapon skill lines now (by using them or having them on your bar).

If it were up to me, We'd have all of these skill lines in the game, available to all players:
-Soul magic (this is new to ESO, but I still like it and it fits)
-Vampire Skill Line
-Werewolf Skill Line
-Fighter's Guild
-Mage's Guild
-Thieves' Guild (Lockpicking boosts/mercantile passives/Stealth boosts)
-Dark Brotherhood (nightblade assassination skills here)
-Dawnguard (Most of the templar dawn's wrath skills here)
-Vigilants of Stendarr (Most of the templar's aedric spear skills here)
-The Greybeards (Th'uum skills representing the dragonknight's draconic skill line)
-Undaunted (again, new to ESO but it's an interesting set)
-All of the crafting skill lines we currently have, plus Jewelry crafting
-All of the current weapon and armor skill lines we currently have
-A polearm skill line
-A crossbow skill line
-An unarmed skill line

And for magic:
-Destruction (fire) (most of the dragonknight flame skills)
-Destruction (Ice)
-Destruction (shock) (most of the sorc damage spells here)
all as seperate lines
-Illusion (mostly like nightlbade skills here)
-Conjuration (Sorc pet/armor skills here)
-Alteration (Shield/force spells and teleports like bolt escape perhaps, or the dragonknight earthen heart skills)
-Restoration (most of the templar restoring light skills here)
-Necromancy (Sorceror dark magic spells and some additional skeletal summoning spells)


With all of these open to all players (with some reasonable restrictions, like not being able to use vigilants of stendarr, werewolf, or dawnguard skills if you're a vampire, or having to choose between necromancy and mage's guild), we'd be free to balance the game ourselves - as long as each ability is balanced on a universal scale, it's up to the players to come up with the combinations they like.

I always viewed the 5 and 1 skill bar in this game like setting up a deck (or hand, rather) of cards in a trading card game. You have to pick what you want to have in your hand, and that's all you can play to the table. You dont know what another player might have in his hand, so you have to do as well as you can designing your own deck to deal with as many scenarios as possible.


Unfortunately doing that would require a near complete reworking of the game, so it's not likely to ever happen.

Gizzarduk

Idea is nice but I don't see this sorting out the current issue of balance. It just means the minority that use certain skills will never get heard or get them fixed.

Maybe once they sort out the current issues with Armour, stamina and Melee I would be more behind this.

Ragekniv

Enkil wrote: »

There is ZERO reason that the most well-respected, rewarded and preeminent class-less RPG franchise should restrict players to a lousy 4 classes in the MMO version.

Agree 100%! Remove all classes and let the theory crafting begin!

reggielee

removing the class system would only encourage even more of the same build of the month cloning. whatever leet set up someone shares would be the one all would have to have equipped in order to group etc. at least with classes you can have a minimum of variations, tho even that is being pegged into clone builds.

Surinen

reggielee wrote: »

removing the class system would only encourage even more of the same build of the month cloning. whatever leet set up someone shares would be the one all would have to have equipped in order to group etc. at least with classes you can have a minimum of variations, tho even that is being pegged into clone builds.

only for minmaxers and the rabble who follow them. do not underestimate TES and its fans. In previous TES installations most of the people played whatever they liked, thematically, aesthetically, whimsically. it was not a dual wield festival.
there would be no difference in MMO. everything depends on your personality, do you seek realisation in your rpg, immersive world or simply seek high numbers and long lost paradise 'camelot'(or some other competition).

ESO cut large amount of players from their characters, nurtured since Morrowind (and even longer). what if your character used light, fire and shock for 10 years? tough luck? truth to be told. classes are unacceptable, useless, wrong, limit.

NobleX35

Surinen wrote: »

reggielee wrote: »

removing the class system would only encourage even more of the same build of the month cloning. whatever leet set up someone shares would be the one all would have to have equipped in order to group etc. at least with classes you can have a minimum of variations, tho even that is being pegged into clone builds.

only for minmaxers and the rabble who follow them. do not underestimate TES and its fans. In previous TES installations most of the people played whatever they liked, thematically, aesthetically, whimsically. it was not a dual wield festival.
there would be no difference in MMO. everything depends on your personality, do you seek realisation in your rpg, immersive world or simply seek high numbers and long lost paradise 'camelot'(or some other competition).

ESO cut large amount of players from their characters, nurtured since Morrowind (and even longer). what if your character used light, fire and shock for 10 years? tough luck? truth to be told. classes are unacceptable, useless, wrong, limit.

This statement is completely filled with ignorance...of course it would happen, and it wouldn't only be min/maxer's who did it. Most of the population would go for the strongest build which is why FoTM's even occur. And previous TES titles were all single player games and this one is not. Competition will drive people into the new FoTM and having all class open to everyone would be a horrible idea.

Surinen

GothicPython wrote: »

This statement is completely filled with ignorance...of course it would happen, and it wouldn't only be min/maxer's who did it. Most of the population would go for the strongest build which is why FoTM's even occur. And previous TES titles were all single player games and this one is not. Competition will drive people into the new FoTM and having all class open to everyone would be a horrible idea.

Nonsense. As I have said, minmaxers and the rabble would follow; people of the weak mindes, bland and boring personalities. Let them go. Definately not the 'most of population', Fotm in gaming has nothing to do with popularity but strength of classes and even then you do not see majority of players using the same builds. It will drive only generic mmo players into this heresy, those who seek mindless competition no matter what game it is; they jump from flower to flower because of the mechanics. I highly doubt that any self respecting, long term TES fan would lower himself and shun years of character attachement for 30% more to damage.
Open classes would bring much more new players to the game, and old ones who refused to touch ESO because of its restrictions.
People prefer customisation, tools of interaction, display over numbers, point allocation.
TES cannot remain TES with obligatory classes. People do not want only to play every role, they want to do it their way. every other game,
it is a major regress, straight to era of stone mmo.

murklor007neb18_ESO

Surinen wrote: »

Open classes would bring much more new players to the game, and old ones who refused to touch ESO because of its restrictions.
People prefer customisation, tools of interaction, display over numbers, point allocation.

And you are certain of this because....?

I dont really see how having no classes would make the game better in the only part that truly matter - Cyrodiil.

Seriously, even with the 4 classes there are now everyone just mix together into one unrecognizable dark robed generic blob. Look to your left, look to your right, its the same damn classes everywhere, mage or "warrior" (ie people silly enough to hold the belief that they arent a mage).

ESO is boring in PvP. There isnt much difference between players. You cannot distinguish yourself. How exactly would making it even more generic and boring somehow make it appealing to new players?

Even if we went as far as the Oblivion class system and customization (ie putting together your own class skillset), it would still be boring. Because no one could tell what you are, you'll still be generic. Not to mention there would be so much meta builds being thrown around that 90% of the skillsets would probably be left useless.

Surinen

murklor007neb18_ESO wrote: »

And you are certain of this because....?

I dont really see how having no classes would make the game better in the only part that truly matter - Cyrodiil.

Seriously, even with the 4 classes there are now everyone just mix together into one unrecognizable dark robed generic blob. Look to your left, look to your right, its the same damn classes everywhere, mage or "warrior" (ie people silly enough to hold the belief that they arent a mage).

ESO is boring in PvP. There isnt much difference between players. You cannot distinguish yourself. How exactly would making it even more generic and boring somehow make it appealing to new players?

Even if we went as far as the Oblivion class system and customization (ie putting together your own class skillset), it would still be boring. Because no one could tell what you are, you'll still be generic. Not to mention there would be so much meta builds being thrown around that 90% of the skillsets would probably be left useless.

because of the trends in games, what is selling good, what people are pursuing in their gameplay time. collectibles, dyes, skins and such. they want to experience new things, to play with different abilities, their colours. they want to present themselves 'good'. vanity rules all

well, to me Cyrodiil is far from being of any other matter than daedric goo. even from lore perspective, there is no incentive for me. 'emperor' title? why would I want something that belongs to lesser races.

I've had my share of PvP in my gaming life. What I've observed, PvPers are minority.

Why do you perceive 'fun', enjoyment through the eyes of the people who observe you? You should feel good, unique with your build, choice of skills. Feel good with yourself, not with 'ohh he has such a special build, like nobuddy else!".

You seem to seek fame. Nothing wrong with that. but

I would feel perfectly fine with abilities of my choice on my action bar even if they were not creme de la creme of 'lolopwnit'

Gizzarduk

Surinen wrote: »

GothicPython wrote: »

This statement is completely filled with ignorance...of course it would happen, and it wouldn't only be min/maxer's who did it. Most of the population would go for the strongest build which is why FoTM's even occur. And previous TES titles were all single player games and this one is not. Competition will drive people into the new FoTM and having all class open to everyone would be a horrible idea.

Nonsense. As I have said, minmaxers and the rabble would follow; people of the weak mindes, bland and boring personalities. Let them go. Definately not the 'most of population', Fotm in gaming has nothing to do with popularity but strength of classes and even then you do not see majority of players using the same builds. It will drive only generic mmo players into this heresy, those who seek mindless competition no matter what game it is; they jump from flower to flower because of the mechanics. I highly doubt that any self respecting, long term TES fan would lower himself and shun years of character attachement for 30% more to damage.
Open classes would bring much more new players to the game, and old ones who refused to touch ESO because of its restrictions.
People prefer customisation, tools of interaction, display over numbers, point allocation.
TES cannot remain TES with obligatory classes. People do not want only to play every role, they want to do it their way. every other game,
it is a major regress, straight to era of stone mmo.

Slight flaw in your plan here is some content requires a group, at the moment those groups mostly only want staff/cloth toons. This is currently happening because the classes are not balanced, if you remove classes there is no need to balance. So although you can spec/equip whatever you like in this bold new world you will be unlikely to ever get end game content groups (Unless you use the "best build"). Not unless they change that too. Either way this is a huge re-write that would stop any current issues being fixed, not something I would vote for, at least not in the short to mid term.

Malpherian

1. There are 100's (if not 1000s)of class trait combinations in this game, It is "Impossible" for an open class system with this many options to have any type of FOTM or cookie cutter build.

FOTM and cookie cutter builds only happen when you limit the players choices from 1000's of skill traits, to: 12 -20 per "Class" (And honestly you can only use 5 at a time). which is what we have now. In this set up there are only so many combinations you can use, and of those there will be a superior "combination" which is better then others for "That Class".

With an open end where the 100's of traits are available to all player characters, this is an impossibility, and an irrelevant, invalid concern.

2. The other concerns I see listed here against this are mainly, from fear, dislike, or because it's simply not wanted by the poster, without any valid or logical concerns.

Those stating other classless MMO's were unsuccessful, you'd be wrong. The most successful MMO's in history were classless, Some of them are still around today.

WoW is the exception to the MMO class rule. It is the only Class based MMO which could ever truly be considered a success.

Every other (10+ year old) MMO which is still functioning with a large player base has always been classless (Or allowed the changing of skills or traits as desired or at will).

One of the newer games "Path Of Exile" Has classes, But they are really just boosters because you can skill up and choose or use any skill or trait you want to as you level your character and build your character however you like.

Guess what? POE has over 10,000,000 Million players as of last month.

Apparently, it does not ruin the game and IS in fact what the majority of players in these modern times prefer: Veriety, Choice, and Options. To make their character truly Unique and unlike any other.

Which ESO is supposed to give, but fails miserably to provide.

3. Currently ESO is falling in the middle and on the fence because it's system is Class based but with branch out options from weapons and armor. But the current system despite this definitely needs an overhaul to be less limiting and restrictive on main class lines.

Surinen

Gizzarduk wrote: »

Slight flaw in your plan here is some content requires a group, at the moment those groups mostly only want staff/cloth toons. This is currently happening because the classes are not balanced, if you remove classes there is no need to balance. So although you can spec/equip whatever you like in this bold new world you will be unlikely to ever get end game content groups (Unless you use the "best build"). Not unless they change that too. Either way this is a huge re-write that would stop any current issues being fixed, not something I would vote for, at least not in the short to mid term.

yes, there is such content. nothing prevents people with their own builds to initiate groups of like minded folk for such extremes likes trials. in fact, I bet my leg that they would feel much better after completing dungeon with the character they feel than the chartacter that has the strongest abilities and was used by them only because content forced them to do so. I'm not a fan of 'balancing' but lack of classes would not stop abilities/skill lines from being adjusted.

about dungeons, I'm all for exploration mode that will adjust difficulty to the number of players participating: if you wish to learn the lore then go solo, or with a friend. scaleable item drops.

I prefer bold actions. you do not remove infected tissue partially, you remove it whole! 'Do. Or do not. There is no try.'

Xsorus

PoE has over 10 million players over the time its been in beta till now... in a game that is free 2 play, you don't even have to buy it.

That doesn't mean it has 10 million players now (you can pretty much see how much it averages on steam every night)

Volkodav

Malpherian wrote: »

WhiskeyRiver.AZub17_ESO wrote: »

I like my NB,and I am a Nord,at level 35.Nothing says you cant be a different race or that.However I do not like that to use either dual weilding or a one handed and a shield,I lose all my abilities.That's not cool.

That's my point. I am sure your Nord makes a fine Nightblade, but do to the games mechanic your Nord Nightblade will never be as good as a Khajit or Woodelf Nightblade.

Which is sad. and the reason this system needs to either go away, or be fixed.

I can see what you mean.

Malpherian

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

PoE has over 10 million players over the time its been in beta till now... in a game that is free 2 play, you don't even have to buy it.

That doesn't mean it has 10 million players now (you can pretty much see how much it averages on steam every night)

Despite that, it is one of their main selling points and the main one that makes people try the game and play it. (Just watch some of their trailers and interviews with players and devs).

About ESO though, It's an Elder Scrolls game..... An "Elder Scrolls Game".

I sat on my check book since release and just recently baught it because of 1 reason: This game has classes. I was considering for over 2 months Not buying it at all because of this one simple factor. And not a day goes by that I don;t think about canceling my sub when I want to do something else (I see a player with a cool skill I like but can't use) and realize I'm going to have to reroll my character to do it.

This is completely UN-Elder Scrolls.

I should not be feeling regret because I chose to play a certain class and because that class is limited in what skills it can use, I can't use it or play with it how I desire.

I can guarantee you that ESO would have quadruple the population if they dumped this *** class system. I bought it because I'm a fanboy. But I know plenty of others who said class? WTF I thought that was an Elder Scrolls game?. And didn't and wont touch it.

ZOS lost Millions of Subs as soon as the words "Class System" Came out of their mouths.

Volkodav

Wolfshead wrote: »

Only think i don't like with this whole skills tree thing is armor skills tree for with all those passive abilities the are force player to use light armor if you want to do ok dmg as Sorcerer or be good a healing, medium armor if want do ok dmg as Nightblade and so on that is what i think is worst of whole skills tree for if want to be a "combat mage" use heavy armor and 2 hand sword i can't for all the bonus for cast are in light armor skills tree which basically make medium and heavy armor use for Sorcerer useless and so on.

The freedom of choose what armor you want is really limited just as in any other mmo and that is in my mind one off big fault in skills tree other then that i think skills and race racial bonuses don't really matter that much just look at WoW the race racial bonuses have not work that good at all for years and now the are talk about remove them all together.

I've become quite fond of the Nightblade.You can mix it up with weapons,heavy armor(like mine),and any class Ive tried so far.I've tried different classes with different races just to see how they work.My Nightblade does quick and heavy damage with magic,and either two handed or double wield weapons. I've finally worked out the kinks,and have made it to level 47,whereas some days ago,I was at level 35. I have great spells to use,and can use both qeapons and magic at the same time.

Dekkameron

I disagree to a certain amount that each class is restricted to a certain role.

Templars for example are by no means the only healing class. Imo the resto staff skills are generally better and use less magika than the class skills. and a nightblade healing using siphoning strikes with a resto staff is amazing.

Your talk of "stabby stabby" classes. Well, dragonknight does a pretty mean dual weild for example.
Also i have done extensive testing myself on which classes have the best synergy with using a bow (NB for ambushing peeps and DK for sustained dps) so these arnt pigeonholed.

Mordria

I think there's enough variation in the game that it really doesn't matter.

hk11

I would have rather seen the classes more defined so they could be balanced. Including weapon and race restrictions for classes.

nerevarine1138

The OP is so mind-blowingly wrong I can't even handle it.

I can heal just fine on my Nightblade. Last night, my guild was actually commenting on how good I am at healing, and I wear a full set of medium armor. So please, spare me the ridiculous lines about "needing" to be a Templar to be an effective healer.

Every class can perform every role. But not every player can figure it out.

Malpherian

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

The OP is so mind-blowingly wrong I can't even handle it.

I can heal just fine on my Nightblade. Last night, my guild was actually commenting on how good I am at healing, and I wear a full set of medium armor. So please, spare me the ridiculous lines about "needing" to be a Templar to be an effective healer.

Every class can perform every role. But not every player can figure it out.

So... Your night-blade can summon daedra? Or Yank people to it? Or reflect all damage? Or give yourself a massive "Casted" self heal('s), etc?

No, I didn't think so. There's plenty of stuff YOU can not do "just fine" or even at "all" on your NB. And yes a Templar will out heal you any day of the week. It's be proven repeatedly with HPS charts. Whether you can "Heal" or not is irrelevant in the current system since you "can". The point is that you can not do it "As well" as a templar, because you do not have access to the templars skills or healing passives, Thus limiting your NB in his options for healing.

The "Limiting your nightblades options for healing" is the key here, since you seem unaware of the point of this thread.

The point is that "Classes are Limited and Restricted in how well they perform at a role the player desires to play them as" When compared to other classes, thus creating imbalance and the need to roll alts in order to experience the different thematic's and play-styles. This also however limits the players creativity, as well as what and how they can develop their character. As within these restricted classes there are only a few viable builds as well which are effective at only certain things contained within the classes skill and trait lines.

Wifeaggro13

Ya because the current system is so balanced.another guy who wants a monty hall mmo