~+~ The innovative idea didn't work ~+~

Emperor · July 2014

I've been reading forums since beta and trying to figure out exactly what the problem is and what the cause is. I think I figured it out, but this is just a theory of course.

I think the "innovative idea" from the beginning was that level 1-50 was "leveling content" and Vet Ranks were meant to be "end-game content". The reason i think this is because a couple reasons:

- There are 2 categories of levels (normal levels and VR)
- VR zones are were much more difficult than normal leveling zones
- Gaining Vet Ranks gives less boosts to stats than normal levels and doesn't reward the player with a skill point or attribute point

I think this idea would have worked if implemented correctly. There shouldn't have been any boost in character stats for gaining vet ranks so players could officially consider themselves "max level" at VR 1. There should be better/rarer rewards in the veteran zones that people drool over and want to work towards getting.

IMHO I believe making just those 2 changes would have made a world of changes to the criticisms this game receives. Casual players wouldn't complain about vet zones being too difficult because they aren't "forced" to do them to get max level. If they still want to do the quests in the other alliances they could just make another character which adds replay value to the game. Elitist players would not complain that the game is becoming too easy because the vet zones could stay difficult and reward them with gear that other players would drool over.

Now I know it might not be as simple as I am making it out to be, but I truly think that there would be much less complaining if these changes were implemented from the beginning. What do you guys think?

~+~ EDIT 7/9/14 ~+~

You guys pointed out 2 important issues so far:

- Skyshards that are currently in the veteran zones would need to be somehow accessible to casual players that don't want to do the veteran zones. This could be solved by adding new ways to getting additional skyshards. They could make a copy of the veteran zone skyshard in a non veteran zone and both would disapear if picked up just like the lore books work.

- Armor and weapons stats are currently increased with vet rank. This could be solved by making all vet rank armor and weapons just 1 vet rank. The armor and weapons would be better in higher vet zones, but they would all be vet rank 1 so everyone could buy and use them for a price.

I believe the vet ranks could stay in regards to the player's "level" though just as another cosmetic reward to show off how far the player made it in veteran zones.

Maverick827 · July 2014

I agree, veteran zones should have been largely cosmetic "solo end game" content.

Laura · July 2014

should have been mounts, pets, achievements, and toys imho.

kept the difficulty ranking up like it was for those that wanted it but made it optional so you didn't need it.

Iminent · July 2014

I think this is the simplest and most spot on observation that i have seen so far.

Hardmode is awesome. if its worth it.

Erock25 · July 2014

@Emperor‌

Please take the time to read my topic on this http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/117205/what-vet-content-should-have-been-solo-pve-endgame#latest that was completely ignored on these message boards. It is basically what you are getting at but with a few more added details.

Vuron · July 2014

These changes would have never had a chance of working in this game.

The most common complaint would have been that people would still be "forced" to the do content because it was there.

This is absolutely no different than what we're seeing now with people complaining that they can't solo Craglorn or do the dungeons/trials. Craglorn is not required content, but we have this common complaint about people getting "locked out" of content or some imaginary "gate".

Also, without any type of reward, there would be no reason for most people to do VR zones. The current reward system is horribly lacking and was one of the complaints for doing VR in the first place. Removing some of the few rewards that we do get would make the issues worse.

Erock25 · July 2014

Vuron wrote: »

These changes would have never had a chance of working in this game.

The most common complaint would have been that people would still be "forced" to the do content because it was there.

This is absolutely no different than what we're seeing now with people complaining that they can't solo Craglorn or do the dungeons/trials. Craglorn is not required content, but we have this common complaint about people getting "locked out" of content or some imaginary "gate".

Also, without any type of reward, there would be no reason for most people to do VR zones. The current reward system is horribly lacking and was one of the complaints for doing VR in the first place. Removing some of the few rewards that we do get would make the issues worse.

Hhhmm I disagree with close to everything you say.

With a changed mechanic for resetting skills, the two VR factions would be completely optional. You can have a focused build at lvl 50 that is just as viable as a vr12 build. All VR zones would be for is money, skill points, crafting, and vanity which is all optional.

I think the reward of money, skill points, crafting mats/motifs, and vanity stuff is well worth it.

Emperor · July 2014

Vuron wrote: »

These changes would have never had a chance of working in this game.

The most common complaint would have been that people would still be "forced" to the do content because it was there.

This is absolutely no different than what we're seeing now with people complaining that they can't solo Craglorn or do the dungeons/trials. Craglorn is not required content, but we have this common complaint about people getting "locked out" of content or some imaginary "gate".

Also, without any type of reward, there would be no reason for most people to do VR zones. The current reward system is horribly lacking and was one of the complaints for doing VR in the first place. Removing some of the few rewards that we do get would make the issues worse.

If you read my post you would know that I talked about this. VR zones would still be available for the casual player because they could just re-roll another character in a different alliance to play all the other content with the same easy difficulty.

As rewards go, I also talked about this. They do need better/rarer gear in veteran zones that people can "drool" over.

Sakiri · July 2014

You know why vet ranks were a bad idea? Because theyre numbered.

Any numbered system, levels, AA points, whatever, youre useless to the masses until you cap them. EQ2 raid guilds mandated you have cap or very nearly cap AA points, max level is when pvp gets fun without being slaughtered by high levels, etc.

Had vr been one thing, no ranks, there wouldnt have been a "I need to be VR12" push.

Lyall84 · July 2014

Agree, but seeing how over half the sky shards in the game are in VR zones, that is a large part of the problem. If people were able to unlock those shards with out having to do "end game content" there would have not been as many complaints. Maybe if they had made it so sky shards were account unlocked instead of character unlocked. That way they could roll a nrw character in a different faction and get them. Or if making a new character, you could at least save the time running around just to pick them up.

Lyall84 · July 2014

Erock25 wrote: »

Vuron wrote: »

These changes would have never had a chance of working in this game.

The most common complaint would have been that people would still be "forced" to the do content because it was there.

This is absolutely no different than what we're seeing now with people complaining that they can't solo Craglorn or do the dungeons/trials. Craglorn is not required content, but we have this common complaint about people getting "locked out" of content or some imaginary "gate".

Also, without any type of reward, there would be no reason for most people to do VR zones. The current reward system is horribly lacking and was one of the complaints for doing VR in the first place. Removing some of the few rewards that we do get would make the issues worse.

Hhhmm I disagree with close to everything you say.

With a changed mechanic for resetting skills, the two VR factions would be completely optional. You can have a focused build at lvl 50 that is just as viable as a vr12 build. All VR zones would be for is money, skill points, crafting, and vanity which is all optional.

I think the reward of money, skill points, crafting mats/motifs, and vanity stuff is well worth it.

The skill points is where you would have problems. Telling casual players that they are not entitled half the sky shards in the game just because they are not hard core would cause just as much as a fuss.

The extra money, crafting mats, motifs, snd vanity stuff being the optional content rewards I agree with, and yes would or could be made worth it.

fromtesonlineb16_ESO · July 2014

Emperor wrote: »

I think this idea would have worked if implemented correctly. There shouldn't have been any boost in character stats for gaining vet ranks so players could officially consider themselves "max level" at VR 1. There should be better/rarer rewards in the veteran zones that people drool over and want to work towards getting.

Character stats aren't the issue for me, it's the fact that the level cap is VR12 not VR1, that makes the VR content, including Craglorn, LEVELING content and there shouldn't be any forced grouping in that these days: fact is, I can't wear all the gear in the game till I'm VR12, not VR1.

The fact Graglorn is still group-or die means there is still forced-grouping for leveling in this game even after this change.

Hilgara · July 2014

Lyall84 wrote: »

The skill points is where you would have problems. Telling casual players that they are not entitled half the sky shards in the game just because they are not hard core would cause just as much as a fuss.

The extra money, crafting mats, motifs, snd vanity stuff being the optional content rewards I agree with, and yes would or could be made worth it.

ZoS's notion was that the casual player could group to get those sky shards but then made all the content phased meaning that unless you went quest for quest with someone you had to pug someone and pugging is much less popular than ZoS seem to think

fromtesonlineb16_ESO · July 2014

Hilgara wrote: »

Lyall84 wrote: »

The skill points is where you would have problems. Telling casual players that they are not entitled half the sky shards in the game just because they are not hard core would cause just as much as a fuss.

The extra money, crafting mats, motifs, snd vanity stuff being the optional content rewards I agree with, and yes would or could be made worth it.

ZoS's notion was that the casual player could group to get those sky shards but then made all the content phased meaning that unless you went quest for quest with someone you had to pug someone and pugging is much less popular than ZoS seem to think

Telling PVEers the same thing when they don't want to PVP is just as bad and hasn't been addressed.

Hilgara · July 2014

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

Hilgara wrote: »

Lyall84 wrote: »

The skill points is where you would have problems. Telling casual players that they are not entitled half the sky shards in the game just because they are not hard core would cause just as much as a fuss.

The extra money, crafting mats, motifs, snd vanity stuff being the optional content rewards I agree with, and yes would or could be made worth it.

ZoS's notion was that the casual player could group to get those sky shards but then made all the content phased meaning that unless you went quest for quest with someone you had to pug someone and pugging is much less popular than ZoS seem to think

Telling PVEers the same thing when they don't want to PVP is just as bad and hasn't been addressed.

I think its fair that to get most of the sky shards you have to be an all-round player. Not brilliant at everything but at least competent at most things

To get all of them you have to be extremely good at all aspects of the game

fromtesonlineb16_ESO · July 2014

Hilgara wrote: »

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

Hilgara wrote: »

Lyall84 wrote: »

The skill points is where you would have problems. Telling casual players that they are not entitled half the sky shards in the game just because they are not hard core would cause just as much as a fuss.

The extra money, crafting mats, motifs, snd vanity stuff being the optional content rewards I agree with, and yes would or could be made worth it.

ZoS's notion was that the casual player could group to get those sky shards but then made all the content phased meaning that unless you went quest for quest with someone you had to pug someone and pugging is much less popular than ZoS seem to think

Telling PVEers the same thing when they don't want to PVP is just as bad and hasn't been addressed.

I think its fair that to get most of the sky shards you have to be an all-round player. Not brilliant at everything but at least competent at most things

Coercing people to do something they don't want to do isn't a good design principle. I shouldn't have to PVP in order to build my character fully.

Hilgara · July 2014

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

I think its fair that to get most of the sky shards you have to be an all-round player. Not brilliant at everything but at least competent at most things

Coercing people to do something they don't want to do isn't a good design principle. I shouldn't have to PVP in order to build my character fully.
[/quote]

Coercing or encouraging you to give it a try? Its in their interest that you enjoy all parts of the game. Or at least experience all parts. So they have to have incentives for you to at least try it. Sly shards are not essential IMO but even if there become needed it's not until very late in the game. By the time you have collected all the shards through PvE the ones that can only be reached through PvP are usually not essential but nice to have.

Audigy · July 2014

Erock25 wrote: »

Vuron wrote: »

These changes would have never had a chance of working in this game.

The most common complaint would have been that people would still be "forced" to the do content because it was there.

This is absolutely no different than what we're seeing now with people complaining that they can't solo Craglorn or do the dungeons/trials. Craglorn is not required content, but we have this common complaint about people getting "locked out" of content or some imaginary "gate".

Also, without any type of reward, there would be no reason for most people to do VR zones. The current reward system is horribly lacking and was one of the complaints for doing VR in the first place. Removing some of the few rewards that we do get would make the issues worse.

Hhhmm I disagree with close to everything you say.

With a changed mechanic for resetting skills, the two VR factions would be completely optional. You can have a focused build at lvl 50 that is just as viable as a vr12 build. All VR zones would be for is money, skill points, crafting, and vanity which is all optional.

I think the reward of money, skill points, crafting mats/motifs, and vanity stuff is well worth it.

The VR zones were already optional and still people whined.

Nobody was forced to do them, the "rewards" are almost non existent and gaining ranks in pvp or Craglorn was much faster too.

People could also do 1-50 on alts to experience the story, the options were all there but as someone else said.

If its there, no matter how meaningless it is, people will complain and demand that they can faceroll it. Its been like that in every MMO!

twev · July 2014

Sakiri wrote: »

You know why vet ranks were a bad idea? Because theyre numbered.

Any numbered system, levels, AA points, whatever, youre useless to the masses until you cap them. EQ2 raid guilds mandated you have cap or very nearly cap AA points, max level is when pvp gets fun without being slaughtered by high levels, etc.

Had vr been one thing, no ranks, there wouldnt have been a "I need to be VR12" push.

Some people need an incentive to keep subbed, or else they might have unsubbed at 50.

The VR levels are the hint that you still have money left, and "Why aren't you sending it to Zeni?"

Erock25 · July 2014

Lyall84 wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

Vuron wrote: »

These changes would have never had a chance of working in this game.

The most common complaint would have been that people would still be "forced" to the do content because it was there.

This is absolutely no different than what we're seeing now with people complaining that they can't solo Craglorn or do the dungeons/trials. Craglorn is not required content, but we have this common complaint about people getting "locked out" of content or some imaginary "gate".

Also, without any type of reward, there would be no reason for most people to do VR zones. The current reward system is horribly lacking and was one of the complaints for doing VR in the first place. Removing some of the few rewards that we do get would make the issues worse.

Hhhmm I disagree with close to everything you say.

With a changed mechanic for resetting skills, the two VR factions would be completely optional. You can have a focused build at lvl 50 that is just as viable as a vr12 build. All VR zones would be for is money, skill points, crafting, and vanity which is all optional.

I think the reward of money, skill points, crafting mats/motifs, and vanity stuff is well worth it.

The skill points is where you would have problems. Telling casual players that they are not entitled half the sky shards in the game just because they are not hard core would cause just as much as a fuss.

The extra money, crafting mats, motifs, snd vanity stuff being the optional content rewards I agree with, and yes would or could be made worth it.

Those extra skill points just let you have build variety without a respec. Introduce a cheaper respec system and there is little need for all those skill points besides convenience.

Emperor · July 2014

Lyall84 wrote: »

Agree, but seeing how over half the sky shards in the game are in VR zones, that is a large part of the problem. If people were able to unlock those shards with out having to do "end game content" there would have not been as many complaints. Maybe if they had made it so sky shards were account unlocked instead of character unlocked. That way they could roll a nrw character in a different faction and get them. Or if making a new character, you could at least save the time running around just to pick them up.

That is a good point. There would probably need to be some way to get the skyshards without doing the veteran zones for casual players.

Erock25 · July 2014

Emperor wrote: »

Lyall84 wrote: »

Agree, but seeing how over half the sky shards in the game are in VR zones, that is a large part of the problem. If people were able to unlock those shards with out having to do "end game content" there would have not been as many complaints. Maybe if they had made it so sky shards were account unlocked instead of character unlocked. That way they could roll a nrw character in a different faction and get them. Or if making a new character, you could at least save the time running around just to pick them up.

That is a good point. There would probably need to be some way to get the skyshards without doing the veteran zones for casual players.

Why? You can have any sort of focused min/max build you want with just skill points gained from your initial faction.

Emperor · July 2014

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

Emperor wrote: »

I think this idea would have worked if implemented correctly. There shouldn't have been any boost in character stats for gaining vet ranks so players could officially consider themselves "max level" at VR 1. There should be better/rarer rewards in the veteran zones that people drool over and want to work towards getting.

Character stats aren't the issue for me, it's the fact that the level cap is VR12 not VR1, that makes the VR content, including Craglorn, LEVELING content and there shouldn't be any forced grouping in that these days: fact is, I can't wear all the gear in the game till I'm VR12, not VR1.

The fact Graglorn is still group-or die means there is still forced-grouping for leveling in this game even after this change.

This problem could be solved by make vet rank armor just vet rank armor (not putting a number on it). The vet ranks could stay I think just so people know how far the player has made it in the vet zones. Another cosmetic reward.

Emperor · July 2014

Erock25 wrote: »

Emperor wrote: »

Lyall84 wrote: »

Agree, but seeing how over half the sky shards in the game are in VR zones, that is a large part of the problem. If people were able to unlock those shards with out having to do "end game content" there would have not been as many complaints. Maybe if they had made it so sky shards were account unlocked instead of character unlocked. That way they could roll a nrw character in a different faction and get them. Or if making a new character, you could at least save the time running around just to pick them up.

That is a good point. There would probably need to be some way to get the skyshards without doing the veteran zones for casual players.

Why? You can have any sort of focused min/max build you want with just skill points gained from your initial faction.

I agree that this is possible, but with so many sky shards being located in vet zones the casual player would undoubtedly complain non-stop about it until there was a way to get skyshards another way.

dennis.schmelzleb16_ESO · July 2014

I made a thread with the nearly same idea, but it was ignored by most people.

My suggestion was:
- no stats increase from VR1-12
- certain epic skins and sets only available in certain VR zones.
- keep cadwells silver/gold so people dont rush to where the most wanted skin/set is.
- more/better rewards for VR quests/dungeons.

So VR would be endgame. Attractive for quester, people farming skins/sets but noone would be forced to do it.
PvP would be more fair because of max level VR1 and not VR12

Emperor · July 2014

dennis.schmelzleb16_ESO wrote: »

I made a thread with the nearly same idea, but it was ignored by most people.

My suggestion was:
- no stats increase from VR1-12
- certain epic skins and sets only available in certain VR zones.
- keep cadwells silver/gold so people dont rush to where the most wanted skin/set is.
- more/better rewards for VR quests/dungeons.

So VR would be endgame. Attractive for quester, people farming skins/sets but noone would be forced to do it.
PvP would be more fair because of max level VR1 and not VR12

Yep.. oh what could have been... I don't think they will do this now since it's been so long since launch $:\$

Emperor · July 2014

What do others think?

Pmarsico9 · July 2014

I was two manning Craglorn quests at VR1 (aka Lvl 50) with my buddy. An extra 120 Health, Magicka, and Stam, and access to gear that is only important for trial record breaking is largely inconsequential since that's such a limited thing anyway. A very few guilds have an honest shot at breaking time trial records anyway.

So from a PVE perspective, most of VR content is completely optional anyway. You can zerg VR 1-12 in Craglorn if you want to, gear up like a crazy person, then farm skyshards in the questing zones just running through them (at least after you open up the 3rd alliance.) You can always respec anyway.

When you add in PVP, the bonus stats matter a little more, but class balance is still too screwy to really say it matters more than anything else.

And even then, running as a group in Cyrodiil in any way, shape, or form is going to matter more. It's not like a VR12 is going to absolutely mop a group of 2-3 well-played VR1's.........1v1 class will matter a lot more than your VR level or your gear.

Emperor · July 2014

Pmarsico9 wrote: »

I was two manning Craglorn quests at VR1 (aka Lvl 50) with my buddy. An extra 120 Health, Magicka, and Stam, and access to gear that is only important for trial record breaking is largely inconsequential since that's such a limited thing anyway. A very few guilds have an honest shot at breaking time trial records anyway.

So from a PVE perspective, most of VR content is completely optional anyway. You can zerg VR 1-12 in Craglorn if you want to, gear up like a crazy person, then farm skyshards in the questing zones just running through them (at least after you open up the 3rd alliance.) You can always respec anyway.

When you add in PVP, the bonus stats matter a little more, but class balance is still too screwy to really say it matters more than anything else.

And even then, running as a group in Cyrodiil in any way, shape, or form is going to matter more. It's not like a VR12 is going to absolutely mop a group of 2-3 well-played VR1's.........1v1 class will matter a lot more than your VR level or your gear.

The difference between VR 1-12 is actually pretty large when you take everything into consideration. The potions, food, gear, weapons, attributes, enchantments, etc all added together add quite a bit.

As long as there is a difference in stats between a VR 1 and a VR 12 the true max level will be VR 12 and people can not claim VR 1 as max level until the only difference is cosmetic and/or access to other rare rewards.

Emperor · July 2014

I wonder if they will change it to something similar to this when they make their big changes to the veteran rank system they speak about in the "what's to come" article

Obscure · July 2014

Remember way back in the day when they said there was going to be a questionnaire that would group you with similar players? Yeah I bet one of those options was a difficulty setting.

Some people play games to simulate being awesome.

Some people play games to earn being awesome.

ESO lies somewhere in between, and thus no one feels awesome.