Kicked from pug trial group for my playstyle...

Tandor · July 2014

I'd blame the group leader if he had specific build preferences in mind but didn't specify them when advertising the vacancy.

I'd also criticise any group leader who adopted an elitist position in relation to a PUG.

Nidwin · July 2014

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

[
You need to be hitting a certain DPS threshold to complete the trials or you will wipe again and again and again.... That's seems to be around 800 per DD or about 8k DPS for the whole team.

That's amazing news actually.
This means that I don't even have to bother with that PVE-carebear aspect of the game on my little itsy bitsy Templar.

Trials done.

Laura · July 2014

this i what I have been trying to say the entire time after ZoS was talking about making veteran easy mode

(i know you were already v12)

but there are going to be a ton of people flooding in with there non optimal builds and they will be removed. ZoS should have been fixing the DPS on these weapon builds and everything instead of just giving them a tunnel to it.

I am with you OP but you are right it is completely ZoS fault. I use to try to lead groups on off nights with people using there "fun builds" but you literally cant do it. The dps is soooo low and the dps checks are already very tight in the trials.

ZoS NEEDS to have this absolutely 100% on there top priority list.

Larira · July 2014

Fleymark wrote: »

The question is, why is there content in a "play your way" game that can't be completed with a group member specced in 2 hand and heavy armor?

"Play your way" does not mean that you will allways succesful with your play style.

Greetings

steveb16_ESO46 · July 2014

So basically it's the same problem. Wear a dress and carry a pair of sticks. It's not you. It's the completely unbalanced game system they need to sort out ASAP.

mad.ferretb16_ESO · July 2014

It's not just ESO I had this sort if thing inLOTRO because I played crit based guardian (Tank) which virtually nobody did. I got kicked from a dungeon while they were screaming nonsense to me. I was soloing stuff while they were doing this. I presumably got kicked because they had nothing else to do.

They are being jerks because they're trying to tell you how to play your char. Just find a decent group and you'll be fine.

Maulkin · July 2014

rynth wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

rynth wrote: »

so let me get this straight the leader of the group kicked you because you didn't spec way they thought you should be spec'd and blames it on Zenni? and you blame Zenni too? wow that's really pathetic really and truly is pathetic.

you do know that this happens in a lot of mmo's that people get kicked cause their stats are right up there to spec, or their gear is slightly less then what it should be. Blaming a company because some human being playing a toon kicked you. But I guess now we should dumb down the trials and everything so that you don't have to respect. The guy was an ass, you shouldn't blame some company because he was being an a-hole.

I guess you haven't done trials and you don't get it.

You need to be hitting a certain DPS threshold to complete the trials or you will wipe again and again and again.... That's seems to be around 800 per DD or about 8k DPS for the whole team.

If the OPs build did not contribute enough to the team achieving that threshold, the problem is either with the OPs build or with the game designers that only allowed certain specs to hit that threshold.

The raid leader did the only thing he possibly could have done and has no blame in this. I would have done exactly the same

it must be nice not ever having to take responsibility for you own actions, I wish I could reside in "me" world like that.

I give you facts and you give me pointless rhetoric on some flawed moral code of yours.

Have fun in fantasy land

Laura · July 2014

Nidwin wrote: »

Pro is pro.

I'm sure those pros who kicked you out of thar group will have a date with Jessica Alba if they top 3 those stupid leader-boards.
Sure thing, don't you think?

Or may be a chocolate cookie, made by one of our forum mods.
Who knows.

its not even like that. The third boss is an incredibly tight DPS check. I seriously doubt a pug is pushing leader-boards.

You can literally not do the third boss unless everyone is pulling 700ish dps+ and you simply can not do that if people are using weapon builds on it. (because the dps is low on them anyway and you have to move constantly out of melee range because of the ground effects)

This isn't the raid leaders fault it is ZoS for still not fixing stamina builds.

rynth · July 2014

no I haven't hit trials, but I would think trials is no different from playing Nightmare mode in TOR's or any other MMO's elite vet areas. But, to just say well there is no other way is just a copout, and to blame Zos is just a pathetic way of taking responsibility away from yourself(group leader) and for the op

Fleymark · July 2014

kitsinni wrote: »

Fleymark wrote: »

kitsinni wrote: »

How many of you defenders have actually been able to complete a trial with DPS using 2-Hander and Heavy Armor? Or are you just talking out your rear?

That's not the question.

The question is, why is there content in a "play your way" game that can't be completed with a group member specced in 2 hand and heavy armor?

It's not like the guy is using some off the wall obscure experimental build. It's an archetypical fantasy game build, like any other number of non dress and stick builds that can't hold up on the high end because HALF of this game continues to be BROKEN a quarter of a freaking year after release.

Meanwhile they continue to focus on all manner of trivial CRAP than fix HALF of tue game.

No one is arguing that the "play your way" is not accurate, or that you shouldn't be able to do this with a 2-Hander. No one is saying that the game isn't unbalanced or filled with bugs.

The argument is in the current version of the game to complete trails you need a ceratain level of DPS that 2-Hander with Heavy Armor can't supply.

That's YOUR argument and I understand that. I'm focusing on the bigger picture. The real problem.

I don't blame the players involved here. Neither does the OP, it sounds like.

I blame the people running this train wreck of a game for launching it with HALF the builds broken and putting in content that makes it WORSE.

Nidwin · July 2014

@Laura‌

Or they could lower the DPS requirements and start to nerf Sorc/DK/NB actual dps into the ground. This would also up the TTK in RvR that's extremely low at the moment.

You see, plenty of solutions here.

Crisscross · July 2014

rynth wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

rynth wrote: »

so let me get this straight the leader of the group kicked you because you didn't spec way they thought you should be spec'd and blames it on Zenni? and you blame Zenni too? wow that's really pathetic really and truly is pathetic.

you do know that this happens in a lot of mmo's that people get kicked cause their stats are right up there to spec, or their gear is slightly less then what it should be. Blaming a company because some human being playing a toon kicked you. But I guess now we should dumb down the trials and everything so that you don't have to respect. The guy was an ass, you shouldn't blame some company because he was being an a-hole.

I guess you haven't done trials and you don't get it.

You need to be hitting a certain DPS threshold to complete the trials or you will wipe again and again and again.... That's seems to be around 800 per DD or about 8k DPS for the whole team.

If the OPs build did not contribute enough to the team achieving that threshold, the problem is either with the OPs build or with the game designers that only allowed certain specs to hit that threshold.

The raid leader did the only thing he possibly could have done and has no blame in this. I would have done exactly the same

it must be nice not ever having to take responsibility for you own actions, I wish I could reside in "me" world like that.

It must be nice not ever having to use facts to win arguments. I wish I could prove everyone wrong like that.

hk11 · July 2014

Nidwin wrote: »

@Laura‌

Or they could lower the DPS requirements and start to nerf Sorc/DK/NB actual dps into the ground. This would also up the TTK in RvR that's extremely low at the moment.

You see, plenty of solutions here.

Sounds viable to me. This is what I see happening already in my conspiratory mind.

Night_Watch · July 2014

While I understand the want or need for a certain type of player / avatar in certain conditions such as a 'trial' and understand that a group may not want players / avatars that are not 'up to spec', I think that such groups should state their needs before accepting a new 'recruit'. If it is absoloutely impossible to state what your group is in need of before a new recruit joins then the new recruits should be vetted as soon as they join the group and not part way into any 'encounter'. I do not see any reasonable way that it would be impossible for the group recruiter to state that new recruits will be vetted in their recruitment 'chat' - such as; 'Group doing X content. We vet new recruits for suitability before we start the run.'. This sounds harsh and elitist but it clearly tells potential recruits what to expect.

On the subject of elitism, I totally agree with what others have either written or inferred; eletism does exist in ESO and other MMOs. ESO is a game and meant to be both fun and 'play[ed] the way you like to' (who is 'you' and does 'you' like to play the same way as others?). Unfortunately ESO has fallen into the same sort of 'trap' as most other MMO games! The trap (think category) of making certain play styles undesirable by certain types of player and thus creating a 'them and us' sort of mentality were the 'them' are the undesirables and the us are the uber lords of the playground (I do not mean this in a derogatory way). More often than not, this trap also leads to players that a have genuine superiority complex - they may not be as superior to others as they imply but they truly think they are. Inevitably this leads to a certain degree of real or perceived eletism.

I do not have a solution to this problem and leave such up to those in control of game design / implementation. What I do know is that, in the face of this / these problem(s), the claim of 'Play the way YOU like to' is absolutely false, somewhat misjudged and likely to anger gamers that pay to play the way they like to but feel forced to conform to play styles they do not like to.

Enjoy your game all, try to be reasonable with each other and try to be considerate if you are setting up a group or joining one for a content 'run'.

All that written and with no malice meant; there will always be those that think they are better than anyone else (wether they truly are or, most likely, are not) and appear to some to be eletist jerks. This is sad but true in gaming and RL.

Edit: crossed some 'i's dotted some 't's!

Edit: For the sake of correctness, changed 'want' to 'like'. All else written still stands unchanged. For many, 'like' is the same as 'want' in that not being able to play as they want will be disliked. Playing the way you like may not be deamed a successful playstyle by some but that does not give those in disagreement any right to dictate how others should play (either side of the debate). We can argue about semantics all day but as things stand, I reiterate; the claim of 'Play the way YOU like to' is absolutely false, somewhat misjudged and likely to anger gamers (see this thread and many others) that pay to play the way they like to but feel forced to conform to play styles they do not like to. It is not unrasonable that people will seperate 'Play the way you like' from whatever else was on the back of the box or in other game literature.

Laura · July 2014

Nidwin wrote: »

@Laura‌

Or they could lower the DPS requirements and start to nerf Sorc/DK/NB actual dps into the ground. This would also up the TTK in RvR that's extremely low at the moment.

You see, plenty of solutions here.

yeah but buffing classes makes people happy, nerfing classes makes people mad

sorc, DK, and NB area in a good spot right now I think the best option is buffing.

why would they just *** people off? they have already brought the DKs down to sorcs and nightblades level so I assume that is the standard they are looking for.

rsiloliveiraub17_ESO · July 2014

Time trial is just plain stupid. No point. Whats the fun in rushing the content.

Audigy · July 2014

kitsinni wrote: »

Audigy wrote: »

kitsinni wrote: »

Audigy wrote: »

Valn wrote: »

Well this is disappointing, I've only attempted trials a few times, and I say attempted because people kept going offline etc, but today was more annoying because I found a good group, but they kicked me for wearing heavy armor + 2h after we wiped on the 3rd boss.

This was a pug group. The leader was asking for people in zone chat. This wasn't a guild run or world ranking world first or whatever. This was a casual pug group.

I'm not blaming the group leader, he wanted to complete the trial. But now I'm forced to choose a certain playstyle.

Nice one Zenimax.

Welcome to what the nerf resulted in. People will put you into boxes from now on, don't have the leet spec or loot --> kick.

That's what us veterans tried to explain over and over again in regards of the VR nerf, nobody wanted to listen and now you see yourself.

Fact is, if people don't learn they will hit a brick wall at trials. Simple as that and it wont get better if anything skill or group related pre trials is removed from the game as it was done last night.

This has nothing to do with the "VR nerf" go vent about that in one of the hundreds of vr nerf whine threads. In every other game people learned about doing dungeons and raids from doing dungeons and raids they can learn it here that way also.

It does, sorry if you don't see it.

WOW is exactly the same.

Before the nerf, nobody complained about someone not doing incredible DPS, not being the leet spec etc. Reason was, that the individual skill of people was much higher due the multiple elite zones pre max level. You know, someone at 60 was good, simple as that.

With WOTLK these were removed and the result was hostility, rudeness and inappropriate behavior in dungeons and raids as you couldn't take it for granted that someone was good just because he was level 80.

Its the downside of making everything obsolete pre dungeons and you will need to live with the consequences now. Don't blame me or those that kick you, its not their fault that they have no other way of knowing how you perform without checking you out.

And if they check you out then you will always be removed if you don't follow the rules of the leet 10% of the game.

But I guess now we should dumb down the trials and everything so that you don't have to respect.

Exactly, this is going to be the next step.

But even this wont help people that refuse to learn and adjust, because the demands by the group leaders will only get bigger and bigger. This isn't witchcraft, everyone knows this from other MMOs that went the nerf road.

The downside is, that those who really know how to play will be judged like those who refuse to learn, resulting that those who are innocent also suffer by high demands that are not even justified

Yes he totally leveled up to V12 YESTERDAY and because of the nerf wasn't prepared .. really dude? Its been out for less than 24 hours. I get it you have an axe to grind but it has nothing to do with this guys situation at all.

You misunderstood me. I didn't blame this guy, I just tried to explain that this is what has to be expected from now on.

As easier games are, as more hardcore the requirements from the community will become. That's all, nothing to get angry about

fromtesonlineb16_ESO · July 2014

rsiloliveiraub17_ESO wrote: »

Time trial is just plain stupid. No point. Whats the fun in rushing the content.

Totally agree, it simply breeds toxic behaviour like the OP experienced.

Fleymark · July 2014

rynth wrote: »

Blaming Zos is like a fat person blaming everything else (none medical related) because they are fat.

Easily the most absurd statement I've seen on these forums yet.

And that's quite a feat.

steveb16_ESO46 · July 2014

Audigy wrote: »

It does, sorry if you don't see it.

WOW is exactly the same.

Before the nerf, nobody complained about someone not doing incredible DPS, not being the leet spec etc. Reason was, that the individual skill of people was much higher due the multiple elite zones pre max level. You know, someone at 60 was good, simple as that.

Utter nonsense and you know it. You're just grinding your broken axe. The much needed adjustment to VR has been operational for what - a day?

Troll reply. Bridge thataway.

>

whvice · July 2014

nobody can tell you how to play your char of course.

but if you playstyle appears to be detrimental to other people, why blame them for isolating you in order to protect their own wellbeing & rights? in most cases they're not trying to be elitists. they just don't want to keep dying and have an easy fight turn difficult & stressful.

however that being said, if your playstyle is "wrong" in a game where its developers told the players "you can play any playstyles you want!".......<fill in the blanks!>

Laura · July 2014

Some people like melee, some people like casters

I happen to be the type of person who loves casters, I know I wouldn't be happy if I had to play melee.

The problem is that if you aren't a caster in this game you simply can not pull the kind of dps NEEDED to get through the trials.

I have lost a lot of good players who were die hard melee people because of this issue. That is what needs to change.

Of course all builds aren't going to be viable ever. If you put heavy armor on and try to run in as a caster with a bow you are going to have a bad time but melee and bow builds should be viable.

Evandus · July 2014

Those of you in this thread that have brought out the soapboxes and given speeches on elitism are mistaken. You have to keep in mind that per the OP's description, it was a pug group. And it was a pug group that was definitely on the weak side to be unable to complete with the presence of one build off of spec. The group leader took the time to converse and provide their perspective regarding why it was that the group wiped. There were no disparaging remarks, and frankly put the OP was trolling him a bit. OP fished for those 'elitist' remarks and negativity and there was none of it.

The group leader holds the responsibility of success or failure in challenge content. Seems to me that leader could see that the missing dps for that group existed because of the OP (insisting on going in with a setup that limited his ability to contribute). Obviously it wasn't due to a dislike of the OP's build or whatever, as the OP wouldn't have been admitted to the group to begin with.

The leader is correct in saying that it is in fact a Zenimax issue. It's a game design problem which locks out many builds due to not being able to meet the dps mark. Additionally the lack of a need to tank anything leaves 1hand and shield builds screwed. Not being able to provide adequate dps within an AOE ridden battlefield is a big issue.

If you don't like completion time trial focused guilds - that is ok.
If you don't like a leader trying to be more flexible and just get completion - not ok.

This community seems to be in the habit of eating it's young. Then wondering what went wrong.

Audigy · July 2014

rynth wrote: »

no I haven't hit trials, but I would think trials is no different from playing Nightmare mode in TOR's or any other MMO's elite vet areas. But, to just say well there is no other way is just a copout, and to blame Zos is just a pathetic way of taking responsibility away from yourself(group leader) and for the op

I wont go as far as Laura did and say "you cant do it if not like this...." that said she is more experienced in trials than me

But,

Trials and the Leaderboard are a status symbol for many and to fail is not acceptable there in their eyes. They don't know how good you are, there is simply put no way of knowing this, maybe you are insanely good as a 2 hander, how are they supposed to know? Your VR doesn't tell, your Tamriel achievement doesn't - its simply put not possible.
They will therefore look into a guide and see "no 2 hand" and that's how they will roll.

As someone else said, make a guild and play with them or join one as long the majority is not yet VR 12 and the requirements for joining low. In future it might even be a requirement to have a specific time for a guild membership, so be fast

Leesha · July 2014

grimsfield wrote: »

I would have kicked you too... Some things just don't work well in this game atm, unfortunately. You really should respec... and it would be wise to listen to people who offer advice.

It is people like you who ruin communities in mmos and make people antisocial. I play a light armor/staff sorc but I'm going to say it anyway. I really hope they destroy the light armor/staff build just so others can play how they want and have fun without being told they have to respec to be included in end game content.

Fleymark · July 2014

Larira wrote: »

Fleymark wrote: »

The question is, why is there content in a "play your way" game that can't be completed with a group member specced in 2 hand and heavy armor?

"Play your way" does not mean that you will allways succesful with your play style.

Greetings

I understand that. You can't just build ANY way and expect to be as optimal or even as viable as other builds.

My point is, going heavy armor and 2 hand in a game like this is supposed to be is hardly some weird unreasonable build to be viable. It's not like the guy, in DAoC terms, is a crossbow specced tank, or something. It's freaking 2 hand and heavy armor. Fantasy game archetypical, for Pete's sake.

The fact is, this game is horribly unbalanced and in terms of this content that was added with the full knowledge of the developers of this fact, it's broken too.

There is absolutely no good reason for a build like the OP's to not be viable, assuming he has truly built this way with passives and gear and is a reasonably skilled player.

And there is no excuse for the clowns behind this game marketing it as "play your way," releasing it knowing that it isn't, leaving it unbalanced for a quarter of a year after, and then adding content that renders HALF or more of the builds completely useless before fixing the issues.

Vuron · July 2014

whvice wrote: »

nobody can tell you how to play your char of course.

but if you playstyle appears to be detrimental to other people, why blame them for isolating you in order to protect their own wellbeing & rights? in most cases they're not trying to be elitists. they just don't want to keep dying and have an easy fight turn difficult & stressful.

however that being said, if your playstyle is "wrong" in a game where its developers told the players "you can play any playstyles you want!".......<fill in the blanks!>

But, they devs never said "you can play any playstyles you want!". This quote has been going around and used in every argument that people have.

The actual quote from the back of the retail box says

Play the way you like.
Adventure alone or together with friends.
The choice is yours to make.

This has nothing to do with playstyle or builds. It refers to solo or grouping.

kitsinni · July 2014

Leesha wrote: »

grimsfield wrote: »

I would have kicked you too... Some things just don't work well in this game atm, unfortunately. You really should respec... and it would be wise to listen to people who offer advice.

It is people like you who ruin communities in mmos and make people antisocial. I play a light armor/staff sorc but I'm going to say it anyway. I really hope they destroy the light armor/staff build just so others can play how they want and have fun without being told they have to respec to be included in end game content.

How does attempting an encounter over and over and over that is literally impossible to do with your setup build a community?

Crisscross · July 2014

Night_Watch wrote: »

I think that such groups should state their needs before accepting a new 'recruit'.

Speaking completely for myself, I would find this undesireable. In a PuG environment, I think it'd be great if groups would at least give "sub-optimal" players a chance or two to see if they could still clear the content with them. Repair costs may be high, but in a perfect world puggers should know what they're getting into before deciding to start, and the "sub-optimal" players know that it's on them to step up.

At the very least, the sub optimal players should be informed that they may be kicked during the run if they start to drag the rest of the group down. That way casual players without guilds can still manage to have some fun doing content that would otherwise be locked out for them, and it's also healthy for the meta just in case one person does come along with an "omg where did that come from" build that blows all the community's preconceptions out of the water.

ArRashid · July 2014

If there were no damned DPS-checks, there would be ultimately no need for restricting "bad" specs. Unfortunately, devs choose to close their eyes to this issue and elitists DO NOT. We've seen the result.

Anyway, my main is at VR4 and I'm currently not in a mood to change that anytime soon. At this point I'm just feeding horses, looting mails and setting up research, maybe playing an alt for a few hours weekly, otherwise I'm just throwing sub fee there as a charity. Please fix the game..