pitdemon_ESO wrote: »

OMG, how could you not know that 2H and Heavy is 7.3% below optimal DPS?!?!?!

Seriously though, this is why I don't bother with Dungeons/Raids in non-open pvp games. These players are in every PVE mmo across the spectrum, unfortunately.

Crap we guess we have to take him out back and shoot him

People vary, and often when things fail make the wrong changes. I've not done trials here, but often in raids dps races are about synergies in character abilities rather than individual dps. What the whole group brings is most important.

However, we have many balance issues still to be ironed out here.

I've always loved the people who won't do group content without healer + tank + N x dps in games (Where N = max group size - 2). The number of times I've seen them take 30+ minutes waiting for their ideal group, when I've seen the same content completed in less than 30 minutes with different group make ups is incredible.

In this case, though, it sounds like they at least tried, which is progress, many wouldn't even try, and would succeed less often, with more waiting time, as a result.

kitsinni wrote: »

How many of you defenders have actually been able to complete a trial with DPS using 2-Hander and Heavy Armor? Or are you just talking out your rear?

I'm pretty sure they must know what they're talking about, otherwise they would not have spoken, right?

pitdemon_ESO wrote: »

OMG, how could you not know that 2H and Heavy is 7.3% below optimal DPS?!?!?!

Seriously though, this is why I don't bother with Dungeons/Raids in non-open pvp games. These players are in every PVE mmo across the spectrum, unfortunately.

actually it's about 40% give or take racial bonus help. Heavy contributes very little to damage annoyingly worst is at VR12 medium can get you armor capped so tanks wear medium or pimped out armor gem cloth to tank them

kitsinni wrote: »

How many of you defenders have actually been able to complete a trial with DPS using 2-Hander and Heavy Armor? Or are you just talking out your rear?

done it with a 2handed user but not in heavy, heavy is practically naked

I would pay a lot of gold to see a group with all 2-Hander Heavy Armor DPS beat a trial. I'm sure you defenders could do it because any spec/skill level can beat anything! Go prove us wrong and post the video I'm sure we can get a large amount of gold people would put on the line to see it happen.

To be fair, that group leader seemed pretty decent about it. He even explained in a polite manner.

Like he said, it's not his fault it's the game design. The guy has a responsibility to lead a raid he created. Imagine the crap he will get if it fails because he invited wrong builds and players.

While I dont think heavy armour or sword and board should be a viable option for dps (it's for tanking). I do agree that the current 7/7 light and staff cookie cutter requirement as dps is getting out of control. It's really not that much fun when only one build is viable and outshines the rest by a huge marginal.

Fleymark wrote: »

kitsinni wrote: »

How many of you defenders have actually been able to complete a trial with DPS using 2-Hander and Heavy Armor? Or are you just talking out your rear?

That's not the question.

The question is, why is there content in a "play your way" game that can't be completed with a group member specced in 2 hand and heavy armor?

It's not like the guy is using some off the wall obscure experimental build. It's an archetypical fantasy game build, like any other number of non dress and stick builds that can't hold up on the high end because HALF of this game continues to be BROKEN a quarter of a freaking year after release.

Meanwhile they continue to focus on all manner of trivial CRAP than fix HALF of tue game.

No one is arguing that the "play your way" is not accurate, or that you shouldn't be able to do this with a 2-Hander. No one is saying that the game isn't unbalanced or filled with bugs.

The argument is in the current version of the game to complete trails you need a ceratain level of DPS that 2-Hander with Heavy Armor can't supply.

kitsinni wrote: »

Audigy wrote: »

Valn wrote: »

Well this is disappointing, I've only attempted trials a few times, and I say attempted because people kept going offline etc, but today was more annoying because I found a good group, but they kicked me for wearing heavy armor + 2h after we wiped on the 3rd boss.

This was a pug group. The leader was asking for people in zone chat. This wasn't a guild run or world ranking world first or whatever. This was a casual pug group.

I'm not blaming the group leader, he wanted to complete the trial. But now I'm forced to choose a certain playstyle.

Nice one Zenimax.

Welcome to what the nerf resulted in. People will put you into boxes from now on, don't have the leet spec or loot --> kick.

That's what us veterans tried to explain over and over again in regards of the VR nerf, nobody wanted to listen and now you see yourself.

Fact is, if people don't learn they will hit a brick wall at trials. Simple as that and it wont get better if anything skill or group related pre trials is removed from the game as it was done last night.

This has nothing to do with the "VR nerf" go vent about that in one of the hundreds of vr nerf whine threads. In every other game people learned about doing dungeons and raids from doing dungeons and raids they can learn it here that way also.

It does, sorry if you don't see it.

WOW is exactly the same.

Before the nerf, nobody complained about someone not doing incredible DPS, not being the leet spec etc. Reason was, that the individual skill of people was much higher due the multiple elite zones pre max level. You know, someone at 60 was good, simple as that.

With WOTLK these were removed and the result was hostility, rudeness and inappropriate behavior in dungeons and raids as you couldn't take it for granted that someone was good just because he was level 80.

Its the downside of making everything obsolete pre dungeons and you will need to live with the consequences now. Don't blame me or those that kick you, its not their fault that they have no other way of knowing how you perform without checking you out.

And if they check you out then you will always be removed if you don't follow the rules of the leet 10% of the game.

But I guess now we should dumb down the trials and everything so that you don't have to respect.

Exactly, this is going to be the next step.

But even this wont help people that refuse to learn and adjust, because the demands by the group leaders will only get bigger and bigger. This isn't witchcraft, everyone knows this from other MMOs that went the nerf road.

The downside is, that those who really know how to play will be judged like those who refuse to learn, resulting that those who are innocent also suffer by high demands that are not even justified

rynth wrote: »

so let me get this straight the leader of the group kicked you because you didn't spec way they thought you should be spec'd and blames it on Zenni? and you blame Zenni too? wow that's really pathetic really and truly is pathetic.

you do know that this happens in a lot of mmo's that people get kicked cause their stats are right up there to spec, or their gear is slightly less then what it should be. Blaming a company because some human being playing a toon kicked you. But I guess now we should dumb down the trials and everything so that you don't have to respect. The guy was an ass, you shouldn't blame some company because he was being an a-hole.

I guess you haven't done trials and you don't get it.

You need to be hitting a certain DPS threshold to complete the trials or you will wipe again and again and again.... That's seems to be around 800 per DD or about 8k DPS for the whole team.

If the OPs build did not contribute enough to the team achieving that threshold, the problem is either with the OPs build or with the game designers that only allowed certain specs to hit that threshold.

The raid leader did the only thing he possibly could have done and has no blame in this. I would have done exactly the same

It's not only "pros" or elitists who do trials that way. On the EU server you won't find a group if your main weapon isn't a staff (tanks may be an exception) and if you don't wear light armor (tanks are no exception). Staves + light armor are just so much better than any other weapon and armor type that I can't blame people for doing so. Also, most random groups aren't about getting the best time, they just want to complete the trial! And with 12 staff users that is a lot more likely.

By now, most VR12s I know have either respecced to staves + light armor for PvE or just don't do trials at all.

My main is VR 12 DK with bow and medium armor. I've completed all the solo content up to VR 10 with that playstyle (including all the hard stuff like the 3 pupils in the VR 9 Alik'r Desert, the VR 10 Soul Harvester and the VR 10 Gargoyle in Bangkorai), done all the 4 player delves and quests in Craglorn and lots of PvP. I refuse to make this a completely different character now, so I'm currently not doing any trials and hope this will change at some point.

Audigy wrote: »

kitsinni wrote: »

Audigy wrote: »

Valn wrote: »

Well this is disappointing, I've only attempted trials a few times, and I say attempted because people kept going offline etc, but today was more annoying because I found a good group, but they kicked me for wearing heavy armor + 2h after we wiped on the 3rd boss.

This was a pug group. The leader was asking for people in zone chat. This wasn't a guild run or world ranking world first or whatever. This was a casual pug group.

I'm not blaming the group leader, he wanted to complete the trial. But now I'm forced to choose a certain playstyle.

Nice one Zenimax.

Welcome to what the nerf resulted in. People will put you into boxes from now on, don't have the leet spec or loot --> kick.

That's what us veterans tried to explain over and over again in regards of the VR nerf, nobody wanted to listen and now you see yourself.

Fact is, if people don't learn they will hit a brick wall at trials. Simple as that and it wont get better if anything skill or group related pre trials is removed from the game as it was done last night.

This has nothing to do with the "VR nerf" go vent about that in one of the hundreds of vr nerf whine threads. In every other game people learned about doing dungeons and raids from doing dungeons and raids they can learn it here that way also.

It does, sorry if you don't see it.

WOW is exactly the same.

Before the nerf, nobody complained about someone not doing incredible DPS, not being the leet spec etc. Reason was, that the individual skill of people was much higher due the multiple elite zones pre max level. You know, someone at 60 was good, simple as that.

With WOTLK these were removed and the result was hostility, rudeness and inappropriate behavior in dungeons and raids as you couldn't take it for granted that someone was good just because he was level 80.

Its the downside of making everything obsolete pre dungeons and you will need to live with the consequences now. Don't blame me or those that kick you, its not their fault that they have no other way of knowing how you perform without checking you out.

And if they check you out then you will always be removed if you don't follow the rules of the leet 10% of the game.

But I guess now we should dumb down the trials and everything so that you don't have to respect.

Exactly, this is going to be the next step.

But even this wont help people that refuse to learn and adjust, because the demands by the group leaders will only get bigger and bigger. This isn't witchcraft, everyone knows this from other MMOs that went the nerf road.

The downside is, that those who really know how to play will be judged like those who refuse to learn, resulting that those who are innocent also suffer by high demands that are not even justified

Yes he totally leveled up to V12 YESTERDAY and because of the nerf wasn't prepared .. really dude? Its been out for less than 24 hours. I get it you have an axe to grind but it has nothing to do with this guys situation at all.