Cogo wrote: »

Tannakaobi wrote: »

Here's the thing, End game content IS the loot!

The only reason the majority would repeat content is for loot. Time trials just don't cut it, the reason? Because 95% of the player base are not going to be on the leader boards, so why bother if there is nothing in it for people.

and just so you know, before your wrath, I am not an 'end game' player. I just recognize the reasons people bother raiding and what not.

PVP is different, but loot is still important. People want something to show for there hours and hours in PVP!

End game is loot?

I am sorry my friend, but maybe you have not been in raids for REAL end game.

End game content is having the skills, team and organization to beat the hardest encounters. And do it before everyone else.

Even in WoW they had this.

Loot of course is an important part of end game.

But until you felt the rush, of, with your team, progressing for a month or more, 5 days a week, on encounters, zones or big "dragon" mobs, that everyone else calls impossible to do.....and you NAIL it.

Stating end game is loot, is 20% of what end game is.

I have done "Server first" a few times. Done "impossible" raids who got nerfed after we and other guilds managed to get em down.

Most enjoyable was Sleepers Tomb in EQ. Not only is it needed to be skillful, have a team to get all keyed to even enter that raid zone. But it droped the best gear in game, No where else to get em. And that zone had a .....twist.

There was several dragons....but if you ONCE killed them all, you did what the world needed, since dragons is a big threat. Needed to kill them and close down the place, so they cant hurt the population anymore.

The first raid, who killed ALL (they repoped once a week), closed down the zone, and saved lives.

In raiding terms. No one on that server can enter sleepers Tomb anymore.

So yes, those loot from there was important. But not as people think. By doing this, you are the heroes, wearing the treasures you EARNED, and HATED by every single raid team on the server...since the zone is not available any more.

THAT rush....and REAL achievement. That is what end game is about.

Let's not revise history.

You went to sleepers for the loot. And if you woke the sleeper it wasn't to"save the world from dragons"...You did it to cockblock everyone else from getting primals. If anyone hated you it wasn't because they were jealous, it's because you were turds for waking the sleeper and depriving the rest of the server from experiencing that content and getting that gear. You can still enter and raid sleepers on every server and always have been able to (although you haven't needed a raid for years) you just don't have the itimization from before because a guild full of lamers slammed the door behind them. People stopped going because the itimization was no longer there. Fluffing your epeen was just a happy consequence of all of that for you and yours that no one else really cared about.

What's especially funny is velious was pre-raid tool EQ. All content before that was all zergable. The only real challenge was having competent clerics. Beyond that any "accomplishment" could be achieved by just bringing more people. The top end was more a question of high play time and numbers than actual skill. Later, when everybody had to start reading and reacting to emotes, changing weapons, etc, player skill became a factor.

People raid for loot. There is a very small percentage of people who even care about server firsts and even fewer who care about doing them. Most of us who raid do it for the accomplishment of doing it and opening up that source of loot, that can be built on to work towards the next content. The only time anyone cares about what another guild does is if they are getting in the way. With everything being instanced in every game now it's really a non-issue.

If it wasn't for the loot, most people wouldn't even raid. But I do agree, that sense of accomplishment is fantastic when you get to that level. Something sorely missed in these newer games. The achievement systems help, but cheevos don't help you kill mobs or in PvP either.

I like the idea about different glyphs or enchantments that can not be made....somewhere or somehow you have to make the whole point of adventuring worth it...and you have to make it worth while as well...today marks day 3 in a vet zone with noone around to help. Again what i was able to kill gave next to nothing valuable...it really takes away alot from the game when everything is so predictable that you just click and run to next point...theres no excitement to look for anything or to hunt for anything...I still feel rewards are the way to go however. I want to run across some quest that rewards a horse....I want to stumble across some book that gives me 5 skill points...I want to find an amulet that gives me +300 HP....something special to tell everyone "check out what i found".....oh where did you get that??? "In Vet zone" "WOW that looks COOL"
How did you get all white armor? What kind is that? "Void"..how did you get it all white??? "a hidden chest out somewhere in the world"
These simple things can really bring back that excitement....Like when I looked and searched everywhere for Glass armor with full invisibility...OR i stole something from an blacksmiths chest when he was not looking....
And one last thing...I can pick up useless stuff but i can't pick up soul gems??

SFBryan18 wrote: »

It doesn't. It can be Skyrim online and still have huge success because that's what TES fans wanted. All you MMO fans have several of your clone titles to choose from.

You are the only TES fan that I have seen post so vocally against the MMO concept. Your argument that TES fans wanted Skyrim online defeats every point you attempt to make. This game was not made solely for TES fans. You really need to get that entire thought process out of your head.

And BTW, MMO doesn't have rules. Example: PS3 game called MAG. 256 player FPS without any of these ridiculous "must have" economy aspects. The only thing it needed to be classified as an MMO was the ability to support 256 players in one match using dedicated servers.

The games you reference are not MMOs. Yes they have multiplayer features but they are not considered living worlds. FPS games and MMO games are not even comparable. If you cannot grasp this all I have for you is this

MMO is just a genre, and really, just a description to one aspect of the game. TES is the franchise and it was the single player game that made this title and those fans which wanted to see their game go online. You MMO fans need to stop trying to clone other games because that is the real killer of all titles.

MMORPGs are a genre. It was the Intellectual Property that gave a foundation for this game to be developed. As far as your attempted insult, without us MMO fans this game would not be an MMO now would it? If you want a stand alone, single player game, head on back into Skyrim. It is a wonderful game without the 'negative aspect' of having to play and interact with other people.

Every COD knock off and WoW wannabe clone is doomed to failure because people want better. If they didn't, they'd be playing the originals, not the clones. And as far as economies go, the more people make, the more they spend. That's a fact.

What?

The only reason I can imagine that MMO fans want to keep the rewards skimpy is because they don't want anyone else who doesn't have a hundred hours to grind to have anything nice. That's pretty damn selfish if you ask me, and it's people like that who kill it.

You defeat your own argument with this statement. Currently you have the easiest, most efficient way of obtaining gear, weapons etc. You make it yourself or find someone who can. There is no need to go out and farm for gear, which comes with the added bonus of being a huge time investment. Time which you appear to be stating you have one of.

I can imagine that they grind for hours and hours so that they can make the most over powered character possible, and then run through PvP and feel elite simply because they have the best stuff. Competition is always better on a fair playing field and it's probably those same people who killed all the other clone titles.

This games gear dependency is miniscule to every other game out on the MMO market. I suggest you educate yourself on gear and how it plays into pvp and pve for this game. It is quite different from what you are assuming.

This game is never going to be what you want it to be. Arguing for the game to change into Skyrim online shows an immaturity and inexperience with MMO play. I again suggest you find a different game that satisfies all of your requests because it is quite apparent that this game does not do it for you.

Edit:spelling

SFBryan18 wrote: »

Kulthax wrote: »

...

Take a look at the genre on the right side of the page:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MAG_(video_game)

You quoted way too many things for me to cut out every little piece and reply, but you are very wrong about many things. So much that I stopped reading half way through because it's all just nonsense. Especially the parts where you attempt to dictate to me how I should think.

I think that you have just sealed the deal for me by directly citing wikipedia as a valid source. Good luck to you in game. You're going to need it.

Elad13 wrote: »

How about giving better rewards? After all that's what people want...to feel an extreme rush of finding a super great item....This game lacks that sensation at every turn....no one cares if vet zones are harder...If the drops are worth the fight then more people would be happy to team up....don't clutter the struggling world with useless crap....like useless white items....fill it with bind on pick up or bound gold items...When a hirling brings in better drops then a storyline boss....no one wants to play. That sense of "look what I found" is not in this game at any level...other then the motif books...and that's only exciting because you know you can at least sell it to pay for repairing your armor from fighting mudcrabs.
Better rewards even yielding higher sale prices...tthat's how you excite the masses of rpg/mmo. Fill up the areas because they are worth the effort...not because you have to replay other factions....no one on this forum could say "this needs to be easier" when they get a purple or gold uncraftable styled 500 armor chest piece for the battle...or find a hidden book giving 5 skill points....or open some chest in a dungeon that pops out some awesome looking glowing effect sword doing 200 damage with a 40% critical chance.

Bling alone will not bring back players who left. It may bring more in, but seriously, if you only play games for the gear...something wrong with your player mentality there I am afraid. Content is what you can do within the confines of the game world, and such content is a success based on how much fun you had doing that content. Right now many after lv 50 it seems are just not having fun, [I have not gotten past 50 yet so I don't know personally] no amount of cool bling will assuage that. This game is in need of downloadable content that will put smiles on most the ESO player base's faces. Simply put, if the content they release for this game does not achieve this, people will continue to leave.

Moderator edit: The quotes from a previously moderated post have been removed

Flamming is different than pointing out facts and giving a valid opinion, just because you have been called out on your BS you go running.

when all you have done in this thread is chat cobblers and destroy other opinions .... one rule for one ....

I played Phantasy star online for years...i would come back after a while and sub again for a bit....everytime i logged in it was learning about the new stuff...the new weapons and skills and decorations....it is what drove the small loyal community it had...it was NEVER F2p....yet even years after I would log in and find at least a few hundred people playing it....it was fun and cool learning the new areas and drops everyone was getting....this was the way it was from the beginning....my fear is TESO didn't bring that excitement to the table...in at least a few ways it seems everyone is unhappy with things in one way or another....now to get back on track...isn't it about the excitment of finding something hard to find? looping over areas searching for that rare item that not everyone gets, but if they try long enough they do get it? I think TESO fell into the XBOX pool...telling everyone what they want and how they are going to "force" it on you...They wanted to show they had plans for end game...because at first that is what everyone worried about....then they released it...with not much thought on what that would mean....then they started to mess with builds and skills and bots to save the game...when all this time if they just made it rewarding enough to play that noone would have been complaining in the first place....Why do so many MMO's follow a set path??? Because it works...people want to feel special and powerful and that the time they spend can be seen by others...if just beating a boss is what makes you happy then good for you and the handful of players out there...my suggestion would be to keep doing what makes you happy....but in the end you do it to have a sense of achievement..of progress or doing something others struggle at...you do to for the reward..either self proclaimed or visible to others it is all about feeling rewarded for your efforts....solo or group or however you play TESO falls short on delivering that feeling that 99% of other games provide the player

Translation: I want everything handed to me just because I showed up.

You have options to get everything in this game. You can craft and get hirelings, do it on alts as well, you can farm or you can buy mats and gear from other players. If you don't like the multiple and varied options available that's another thing entirely.

MMOs simply can't be the monty haul experiences that single player games can be for a lot of reasons but, suffice it to say, because of the multiplayer aspects of the game. It's not just bad for the economy and bad for player interest and retention, but can be very easily OP when players approach a game in the way MMOs are intended...working together cooperatively. The only reason anyone would have a problem with this is if they approach an MMO as a single player game, which it isn't. ESOs problems stem not from having too much "economy crap," as you say, but not enough of it. There is more to it than just what's for sale. When done correctly, the right economic model fuels a healthy multiplayer game environment and infinite replayability. This game has gone so far to cater to solo players and to insulate players from multiplayer as it is it now has so far to go to achieve that. And is the root of most of the game's problems.

And, frankly, this is YOUR problem, not a design flaw or something broken with the game. You might consider that perhaps MMOs aren't for you and maybe you should stick to single player games. You won't have to deal with "economy crap" and we won't have to deal with you and those like you trying to make MMOs even weaker and easier than they've already become.

[/quote]

I dont mind to grouping but all yes all grouping usually just want to speed run . when i find mat , ore , alchemy ,chest , etc , i usually get them . But when i'm in group they angry at me. Thats why i dont like to group. If ur people like to speed run go play diablo or torclight , etc

theyancey wrote: »

Do we really want to have the early rage quitters back?

It wasn't the early rage quitters that left at VR 1-3.... it was all the average players that couldn't solo Vet ranks.... They were designed for more than 1 player.

I'd rather they have a dedicated team for pvp content updates. Played this game solely for the pvp, and after a while it gets really really boring fighting over the same keep over and over and over and over and over and over again day after day after day with no real purpose, reward nor impact on anything.

They should copy bits of Lineage 2 on how to make real and lasting impact in terms of mass pvp.

Oh, and this is assuming all the bs technical problems like fps and lag are not present (which is not true at the moment)

Stratti wrote: »

Audigy wrote: »

Opioid wrote: »

I don't think that better rewards are the answer. A broader selection of things to do at max-level and an easier leveling curve in Veteran zones could be.

This game is sorely lacking end-game activities. Cyrodiil, two Trials and one VR12 dungeon just isn't going to cut it.

Trials seem to be built around the strategy of zerg-rushing as quickly as possible to place on the leader board. End-game PVE content which you can blow through in 15-20 minutes is silly. There is no sense of progression, no sense of accomplishment for refining strategy and learning encounter mechanics. It just turns into a speed-run to get it done as quickly as possible and that's it. The fact that there is no tiered difficulty levels leads to content either being stupid easy, or ridiculously hard with no middle ground to progress through.

Only having a single VR12 Dungeon is a sad state of affairs. Granted, I think they are working on having dungeons level up based on the party leader's level so that may help somewhat.

Personally, I'm starting to get bored with ESO. I really had high hopes for this game when it was announced, and I still hope that they will develop some more engaging, longer lasting content. I just fear that it may be too little, too late.

Good MMOs don't define themselves alone by Dungeons and Raids, sorry if you have that impression after playing WOW.

What ESO needs are not more dungeons and raids, but content suited for solo and small scaled groups of 2 or 3 players and I am not talking about Dailys.

With the nerf to VR´s the content past max level is cut very short and they need to add a replacement for this ASAP else a lot people who are not hardcore and not interested in trials or dungeons will leave.

Do you mean content like

Solo dungeons
Dungeons
Public dungeons
World Bosses
Delves
Craglorn quests

All of the above are good for groups of 2-3 or 4 for dungeons so I am not sure what you mean

Uhm not really.

The solo dungeons are too easy and meaningless in its current state. Public dungeons are overrun by players so that there is no challenge either, too often mobs are already dead.

World bosses don't scale to the people and so as soon you have more than three players its too easy. Most of them can be done by two players already.
Craglorn are daily quests and again too easy.


As an example of what we need.


1. Social content

Housing, Player shops, housing specific crafting, world events that have an impact on your faction

2. Solo content

Let players adventure hidden territories with quest lines that unlock a brand new skill line, that let you recruit an NPC to fight on your side. Similar to VR, just that we lack the NPC support.

3. small scale content

Again, similar to VR but a bit harder. Let people go into these zones solo if they like, but to fight off the mobs at least three or four people would be required. Also here new skill lines, crafting recipes etc. should be unlocked.

4. PVP

I like the design of Cyro, but sadly did not play enough there yet to really give a judgment about what could be done to improve it.


To cut things short, what we need is content that matters. Right now doing one of the things you mentioned is not only in a non appropriate difficulty for the amount of people that do it, no it also doesn't reward players at all. Social content is completely missing.

Trials and dungeons should not be the only place where rewards and challenges do exist. This is the mistake many MMO´s did in the past and I hope ESO wont do the same.

Me wants a easy button to drop from npc's.