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I see the real issue with NB's now
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Samadhi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭There is a lot of misunderstanding regarding what scales from what in this game.
ambush, surprise attack, killers blade etc use magicka as a resource but the damage is scaled magicka and weapon power. ...
Incorrect.
When I said:Class melee abilities scale off of Spell Damage stat but weapon crit.
Stamina has no bearing on them.
My class skills have the exact same damage with 127 weapon damage stat as they have with no weapon equipped at all.
By contrast, a 10 Spell Damage necklace adds about 20-30 damage (90 on sneak attacks).
I meant that I literally went and tested this with both Ambush and Concealed Weapon before making my post.
There is no damage difference whatsoever between having a Yellow V7 bow equipped (127 weapon power), and having no weapon equipped at all (0 weapon power).
The damage difference between a 10 Spell Damage and 64 Magicka Necklace and a 17 Spell Cost Reduction and 64 Magicka Necklace is as I stated.
Class skills scale off of Spell Damage stat and not weapon power.Edited by Samadhi on June 30, 2014 5:00PM"If you want others to be happy, practice compassion. If you want to be happy, practice compassion." -- the 14th Dalai Lama
Wisdom is doing Now that which benefits you later.
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kitsinni✭✭✭✭✭You can talk about theorycraft, supporting evidence and and spread sheets until you are blue in the face but you can just log on to your character and change equipment and see the results, which are damage increasing with Magicka but not Stamina or weapon damage.
Same exact test but with a ring that adds both 61 stamina and 8 Weapon Damage .. 407 Concealed Weapon.
Its not that simple. Concealed weapon is a magicka based ability. It uses magicka as a resource and if you have a lot of magicka it will do less damage if you remove some magicka from your pool but it also scaled off weapon damage. If you do the same attack with two different weapons each having a different weapon damage rating you will also see a difference in damage. Also the crit of that attack is not based off you spell crit it is based off your weapon crit so having high weapon crit will do more damage than having a high magicka crit for that particular attack.
So then why would adding a ring with both stamina and weapon damage not increase the damage of the skill in any way?0 -
kitsinni✭✭✭✭✭Lets make it even more obvious. I take off my weapon .. 0 weapon damage and Concealed Weapon does 416, add back my Destro staff 136 weapon damage Concealed Weapon does 416. I changed to destro staff because when I put my Resto staff on it shows a 10% bonus when I add the staff back. Exactly 10% not 1 point higher.0
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ExiledKhallisi✭✭✭✭✭I just put everything into health on all classes.
Pointless when you can soft cap health with glyphs and food with 0 pts in it.>>>>>>>>(DC)Guild Master of Biestas 250+ Active Members<<<<<<<<||||||Vr14 Sorc: Darkened Soul vr14 Templar: Tiffaney||||||“Let your plans be dark and impenetrable as night, and when you move, fall like a thunderbolt.”
― Sun Tzu, The Art of War0 -
xaraan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭sfradenb14_ESO wrote: »I am doing a NB with bows and stealth, that's the idea behind the class. I keep having issues with the class, feeling vastly underpowered, unable to complete quests, like im wearing a wal-mart shopping bag as armor. (Im wearing blue medium armor) Everyone kept saying to use this skill, or that skill and you would be awesome, so I waited till the so-called 'NB update patch' occurred, saving 14 skill points so I could choose my class path post-patch.
That's when I noticed the problem: I am stam based, my bow line is stam based, my armor is stam based, thus I dumped the bulk of my points into stam and not a single point into magika. All the flippin 3 skill lines are MAGIKA based and I cannot use them now. No wonder the couple skills I did choose early on don't work for ****. I have a mana pool size of a baby bottle!
This really sucks as I also am a werewolf, which needs a good stam build to operate (WW is currently unuseable and broken, but one day it might be fixed) so to be an effective fighter and dps I need the stam, but to survive I need magika, cant have both or I would truly be averagely ineffective.
I have given up attempting to play the NB. I think I'll play something else.
This is the problem with any stamina build, not just NB. If you want to use a weapon (ie weapon powers) then your class powers will be weaker. This is why staff users are everywhere, because they use that one pool for their weapon and class powers, not only letting them completely focus their points on magicka, but also increasing the damage of those powers. They can also use jewelry to raise their damage to that one line (magicka) where if you use weapon jewelry to do the same for your wpn dmg, you won't see any benefit to any class skills on your bar. So trying to use class powers (that are not just buffs/defenses to your character) is almost wasteful on a weapon/stamina build.
This carries into crit as well. If you don't focus all your improved crit on one or the other, then they will both be weaker for it, giving you less crits, which is not only less DPS, but less ultimate generation. Even if you focus all in stamina, you can still get magicka crit higher, giving a magicka user more dps over time and more ultimate gen over time.
Where it gets to the Nightblade part I would say they have less useful synergies than some of the other classes. A stamina built DK might have less power into their fire breath or whatever, but they could still get use out of things like molten weapons, obsidian shields, reflective scales, Talons, etc. A stamina build sorc would still get use out of critical surge, lightning form (in melee), CCs, negate, etc. Where as a NB has... Haste (kind of sucks, even after being "fixed" unless they make it speed up overall animation, this skill is a waste), Shadow Cloak is ok (if it works) for defense sometimes, Siphoning Strikes (too much of a hit to DPS to be truly useful in serious DPS vet grinds), Agony (CC is broken by ANY damage, which makes it much less useful than some other class CC and will do less damage in a stamina build vs magicka build and useless now that mobs CC break instantly), Mark Target (good if you are going to be able to take someone out fast, not so good if it will be a real back and forth fight), Aspect of Terror (ok, but very situational). Those are the class powers that would work nearly as well even on a stamina build. After playing a sorc and NB up to vet with exact same builds (and now working on a DK as well), those two classes have much more going on for them to work with a possible stamina build (though would still be more powerful with magicka build).
Personally, I think they should make some (or a lot) of the powers from DK and NB class skills use stamina. Both of those classes are the ones we think of as "physical" classes, leaving the other two Templar and Sorc, classes thought of as caster classes, using mainly magicka. (We'd also might get a lot less DK staffers then as well). I don't mean the synergy abilities listed above though, (in fact, those would probably best be left as magicka cost to even out for having to use stamina to block and dodge and all) but the powers that actually do damage so you could use them while using your weapon powers. Just a thought, but either way ZoS needs to look at that issue while they work on stamina builds. So far they just have offered more stamina regen as a fix, and the problem is MUCH deeper than that.Edited by xaraan on June 30, 2014 5:23PM-- @xaraan --
nightblade: Xaraan • templar: Xaraan-dar • dragon-knight: Xaraanosaurus • necromancer: Xaraan-qa • warden: Xaraanodon • sorcerer: Xaraan-ra
AD • NA • PC0 -
Sharee✭✭✭✭✭
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It would be objectively better. That build would die less and kill faster for any player with the stamina points divided between health and magicka.Can't offer bow advice, but as a dual dagger NB i have no problems. My attribute spread is 1magicka and 1 stamina for every 2 health (so at level 50 that's 12 mag, 25 hp, 12 sta). Armor (medium) has magicka enchants up to magicka pool cap, then rest hp enchants. I use magicka skills only. Stamina goes to blocks/dodges.
concealed weapon/dark cloak/piercing mark/impale/ambush
Your build would actually be much better if you didn't have any points in stamina.
Better for who?
If its working for him who's to judge?
1, Kill faster: Stamina affects the damage of light and heavy attacks. I am using those a lot.
2, Die less: Having more stamina allows me for one more roll dodge/CC break/etc. where someone without it would have to take damage.
3, Since i am a Redguard, i actually get a % based increase to stamina. The higher the base, the better the effect of this passive.
1.If you are using them a lot without siphoning attacks you are just reducing your dps no mater how high your weapon damage you will not compensate.
2. You would be surprised I think . Especially since you have Medium armor,Redguard and the new permanent stamina regen from NB. You shouldn't have much of a problem with 0 investment in stamina.
3.Since you do not have any magicka bonus it is even more important to go more magicka. I run Dunmer with 9%magick and 6% stamina and I used a very similar build in Vr2-7. Worked very nice with 0 stamina.
In the end play as you wish .
1, if you do not interweave basic attacks in between your abilities, you are giving up a large source of free damage. If i attack the same mob with just spamming concealed weapon, and doing heavy attack+concealed weapon repeatedly, i end up killing just as fast in both cases, but the first drains my magicka completely, while the second leaves me with 50% magicka left. (tested on a v2 strangler)
2, Its not a question of having 'problem' with stamina. More stamina is more stamina. Someone with more stamina will be able to roll dodge where someone without it won't. And having the redguard skill means i benefit more from higher base stamina than other races.
3, I have ~2000 magicka pool anyway. I'm over the cap. Putting those 12 points from stamina into magicka, i would be trading 2 stamina for 1 magicka. Lose 120 stamina(more, because of the redguard bonus) to gain 60 magicka? I don't think it is worth it.Edited by Sharee on June 30, 2014 5:26PM0 -
ShedsHisTail✭✭✭✭✭
✭Targanwolf wrote: »My main is a bow/dw nb.
I definitely feel underpowered when I see Sorcs and Dragonknights blow through content that seems too easy for them.
I used to feel that way... Then I remembered all those baddies that I kill in, literally, two button clicks."As an online discussion of Tamrielic Lore grows longer, the probability of someone blaming a Dragon Break approaches 1." -- Sheds' Law
Have you seen the Twin Lamps?1 -
Lord_Draevan✭✭✭✭✭
✭I have a question: are people referring to Vet Zones when they talk about these NB problems? Because I play a a Bow/Siphoning/Medium armor NB and I breeze through every zone, about to enter Coldharbour and have only died twice. So far it's been much easier than when I played through as my melee DK... but I see all these threads/posts about NB problems and am somewhat concerned since I'm about to enter the Vet Zones.I'm a man of few words. Any questions?NA/PC server0 -
Tannakaobi✭✭✭✭✭Lord_Draevan wrote: »I have a question: are people referring to Vet Zones when they talk about these NB problems? Because I play a a Bow/Siphoning/Medium armor NB and I breeze through every zone, about to enter Coldharbour and have only died twice. So far it's been much easier than when I played through as my melee DK... but I see all these threads/posts about NB problems and am somewhat concerned since I'm about to enter the Vet Zones.
Yes of course. A monkey could play through 1-50...1 -
kitsinni✭✭✭✭✭
It would be objectively better. That build would die less and kill faster for any player with the stamina points divided between health and magicka.Can't offer bow advice, but as a dual dagger NB i have no problems. My attribute spread is 1magicka and 1 stamina for every 2 health (so at level 50 that's 12 mag, 25 hp, 12 sta). Armor (medium) has magicka enchants up to magicka pool cap, then rest hp enchants. I use magicka skills only. Stamina goes to blocks/dodges.
concealed weapon/dark cloak/piercing mark/impale/ambush
Your build would actually be much better if you didn't have any points in stamina.
Better for who?
If its working for him who's to judge?
1, Kill faster: Stamina affects the damage of light and heavy attacks. I am using those a lot.
2, Die less: Having more stamina allows me for one more roll dodge/CC break/etc. where someone without it would have to take damage.
3, Since i am a Redguard, i actually get a % based increase to stamina. The higher the base, the better the effect of this passive.
1.If you are using them a lot without siphoning attacks you are just reducing your dps no mater how high your weapon damage you will not compensate.
2. You would be surprised I think . Especially since you have Medium armor,Redguard and the new permanent stamina regen from NB. You shouldn't have much of a problem with 0 investment in stamina.
3.Since you do not have any magicka bonus it is even more important to go more magicka. I run Dunmer with 9%magick and 6% stamina and I used a very similar build in Vr2-7. Worked very nice with 0 stamina.
In the end play as you wish .
3, I have ~2000 magicka pool anyway. I'm over the cap. Putting those 12 points from stamina into magicka, i would be trading 2 stamina for 1 magicka. Lose 120 stamina(more, because of the redguard bonus) to gain 60 magicka? I don't think it is worth it.
I do that is free damage and I have never run out of stamina dodging and blocking with no points in as a Khajit, but if that is your preference then I have no problem with it.0 -
Sharee✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I do that is free damage and I have never run out of stamina dodging and blocking with no points in as a Khajit, but if that is your preference then I have no problem with it.
If you never ran out of stamina for dodging then you simply haven't been exposed to a situation that requires lots of dodging.
Even with all my bonuses i am often out of stamina when for example trying to avoid a talon-spamming DK in PvP.0 -
kitsinni✭✭✭✭✭I do that is free damage and I have never run out of stamina dodging and blocking with no points in as a Khajit, but if that is your preference then I have no problem with it.
If you never ran out of stamina for dodging then you simply haven't been exposed to a situation that requires lots of dodging.
Even with all my bonuses i am often out of stamina when for example trying to avoid a talon-spamming DK in PvP.
Maybe the difference is I typically run Siphoning Attacks unless I'm in a raid situation so I am getting it back pretty often. I guess I had not considered that.0 -
kitsinni✭✭✭✭✭Honeslty I have 0 problem with you going in to Stamina as long as you understand how it impacts the damage and are making your decision based on the correct info. I hate when people make a decision based on being told something that isn't right. It sounds like you understand how the damage scaling works and have decided on stamina for you play style I can totally repsect that.1
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dastone✭✭ExiledKhallisi wrote: »
Lol this is one of the funniest post I have seen. You can reach soft cap on any ability with no points invested with glyphs and food. I guess using your logic it is pointless to put points in any thing.
Putting points in health allows you to use you glyphs for magica and not worry about health if you have not figured that out and it sounds like you have not.
I point in health equals 15 health. 1 point in magica equals 10 magica. One could argue putting in health gives you more bang for the buck
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Erock25✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭A stamina build sorc would still get use out of critical surge, lightning form (in melee), CCs, negate, etc. Where as a NB has... Haste (kind of sucks, even after being "fixed" unless they make it speed up overall animation, this skill is a waste), Shadow Cloak is ok (if it works) for defense sometimes, Siphoning Strikes (too much of a hit to DPS to be truly useful in serious DPS vet grinds), Agony (CC is broken by ANY damage, which makes it much less useful than some other class CC and will do less damage in a stamina build vs magicka build and useless now that mobs CC break instantly), Mark Target (good if you are going to be able to take someone out fast, not so good if it will be a real back and forth fight), Aspect of Terror (ok, but very situational). Those are the class powers that would work nearly as well even on a stamina build. After playing a sorc and NB up to vet with exact same builds (and now working on a DK as well), those two classes have much more going on for them to work with a possible stamina build (though would still be more powerful with magicka build).
I don't get people saying Sorc fits stam builds better than NB. You say Crit Surge ... which is huge and I fully admit that is the best stamina build synergy we have. Then you mention a defense skill which I kinda understand. It does melee ranged aoe dmg (but scales on magicka and spell crit). I'm not sure what you're getting at with CCs and Ultimate synergizing better with Stam build for Sorc. Our root is a magicka hog to an extreme degree with a stam build and roots don't help melee characters anyway. Our other CC's are single target and don't really synergize well with stam build at all actually.
I basically think Sorc is terrible for a stam build (no stam regen, no synergy) besides Crit Surge which is awesome.
Sorc = no weapon crit class abilities
NB = quite a few
You earned the 500 LOLs badge.
You received 500 LOLs. It ain't no fluke, you post great stuff and we're lucky to have you here. +50 points0 -
PBpsy✭✭✭✭✭
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It would be objectively better. That build would die less and kill faster for any player with the stamina points divided between health and magicka.Can't offer bow advice, but as a dual dagger NB i have no problems. My attribute spread is 1magicka and 1 stamina for every 2 health (so at level 50 that's 12 mag, 25 hp, 12 sta). Armor (medium) has magicka enchants up to magicka pool cap, then rest hp enchants. I use magicka skills only. Stamina goes to blocks/dodges.
concealed weapon/dark cloak/piercing mark/impale/ambush
Your build would actually be much better if you didn't have any points in stamina.
Better for who?
If its working for him who's to judge?
1, Kill faster: Stamina affects the damage of light and heavy attacks. I am using those a lot.
2, Die less: Having more stamina allows me for one more roll dodge/CC break/etc. where someone without it would have to take damage.
3, Since i am a Redguard, i actually get a % based increase to stamina. The higher the base, the better the effect of this passive.
1.If you are using them a lot without siphoning attacks you are just reducing your dps no mater how high your weapon damage you will not compensate.
2. You would be surprised I think . Especially since you have Medium armor,Redguard and the new permanent stamina regen from NB. You shouldn't have much of a problem with 0 investment in stamina.
3.Since you do not have any magicka bonus it is even more important to go more magicka. I run Dunmer with 9%magick and 6% stamina and I used a very similar build in Vr2-7. Worked very nice with 0 stamina.
In the end play as you wish .
1, if you do not interweave basic attacks in between your abilities, you are giving up a large source of free damage. If i attack the same mob with just spamming concealed weapon, and doing heavy attack+concealed weapon repeatedly, i end up killing just as fast in both cases, but the first drains my magicka completely, while the second leaves me with 50% magicka left. (tested on a v2 strangler)
2, Its not a question of having 'problem' with stamina. More stamina is more stamina. Someone with more stamina will be able to roll dodge where someone without it won't. And having the redguard skill means i benefit more from higher base stamina than other races.
3, I have ~2000 magicka pool anyway. I'm over the cap. Putting those 12 points from stamina into magicka, i would be trading 2 stamina for 1 magicka. Lose 120 stamina(more, because of the redguard bonus) to gain 60 magicka? I don't think it is worth it.
1. I am always trying to animation cancel a simple attack with each skill but I do it for the 60+ magicka and 40 + stamina return from siphoning attacks.The ~100 extra damage is good also but in the end not that great and with the stat and gear budget it is better to improve my skill damage instead of my weapon attack damage. I also have my weapon damage close to the cap already without doing anything.
2. Yes but with more skill damage you kill them quicker so you do not have to dodge as much.Also as Redguard,Med armor NB you have more than enough Stamina/Stamina regen to give more than you should need. Unless you are fighting a Talons spammer but then extra stamina will not really help..
3. Your health is not capped though . Also I actually go to 2070M and than 2250 M with food M&H.It is certainly noticeable.
Anyway I am not saying that you should go full magicka and 0 stamina Everyone should play however they please. I would recommend trying it for any NB that plans to stick with the class skills only. Both Staff/S&B Siphoning builds and Assassination/Shadow weapon crit builds.Edited by PBpsy on June 30, 2014 9:56PMESO forums achievementsProud fanboiElitist jerkTrollHaterFan of icontested(rainbow colors granted)0 -
ExiledKhallisi✭✭✭✭✭ExiledKhallisi wrote: »
Lol this is one of the funniest post I have seen. You can reach soft cap on any ability with no points invested with glyphs and food. I guess using your logic it is pointless to put points in any thing.
Putting points in health allows you to use you glyphs for magica and not worry about health if you have not figured that out and it sounds like you have not.
I point in health equals 15 health. 1 point in magica equals 10 magica. One could argue putting in health gives you more bang for the buck
1 point in magicka also DIRECTLY modifies your spell damage.
1 point in Stamina also DIRECTLY modifies your Stamina skill dmg.
In fact, going all health attribution gimps your damage output. Mouse over the stats and read. Enchants for Stamina or Magicka do not modify the spell/skill damage like direct attribution does.
>>>>>>>>(DC)Guild Master of Biestas 250+ Active Members<<<<<<<<||||||Vr14 Sorc: Darkened Soul vr14 Templar: Tiffaney||||||“Let your plans be dark and impenetrable as night, and when you move, fall like a thunderbolt.”
― Sun Tzu, The Art of War0 -
Knootewoot✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I have put 0-2-1 so also nothing in Magicka. I have both stamina and magicka clothing (and one health|) and i eat health.magicka food. Also i have restore m/h/s potions.
Also i have medium armor and use bow/dual wield and the NB skills. And i hardly run out of magicka really.
Edit: And no, i am not a low level. Im V9 and still able to do PvE except some bosses and Storm atronachs and i kill in PvP (and get killed of course)
I just use magicka skill when needed but rely heavily on my stamina. For magicka i use mostly shadow cloak, agony, teleport strike thing, concealed weapon and the life taker skill i forgot name and mark target.
I don't have all those kills in one set but mostly 3 stamina skils and 2 magicka skills.Edited by Knootewoot on July 2, 2014 5:12PM٩(͡๏̯͡๏)۶
"I am a nightblade. Blending the disciplines of the stealthy agent and subtle wizard, I move unseen and undetected, foil locks and traps, and teleport to safety when threatened, or strike like a viper from ambush. The College of Illusion hides me and fuddles or pacifies my opponents. The College of Mysticism detects my object, reflects and dispels enemy spells, and makes good my escape. The key to a nightblade's success is avoidance, by spell or by stealth; with these skills, all things are possible."0 -
Samadhi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭ExiledKhallisi wrote: »...Enchants for Stamina or Magicka do not modify the spell/skill damage like direct attribution does.
Uh, what?
With Chest, Helm and Pants on I get 306 extra magicka stat (102 per piece)
Magicka stat overcharged at 2091.
Tooltip for Funnel Health reads 427 magic damage
Hitting a mob with the skill does 400 damage non-crit and 600 damage crit.
Take off those three pieces of gear. Lose 306 magicka. (less than that, because my stat was overcharged)
Magicka stat overcharged at 1930
Tooltip for Funnel Health reads 412 magic damage.
Hitting a mob with the skill does 383 damage non-crit and 575 damage crit.
Magicka enchants on gear definitely impact damage of class skills."If you want others to be happy, practice compassion. If you want to be happy, practice compassion." -- the 14th Dalai Lama
Wisdom is doing Now that which benefits you later.
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