Why are addons like this allowed?

onlinegamer1 · June 2014

Heishi wrote: »

onlinegamer1 wrote: »

Heishi wrote: »

It's a form of cheating in the same manner as buying a guide, looking up a walkthrough, or downloading maps like this. Nothing that violates any rules though.

Would it really be different than finding a map with the resource locations and printing it (or having it up on a second screen) while playing?

This is false.

Using an addon is the same thing as pressing "M" to open the map. Its built into the game, therefore, its not cheating to use a built-in game function. Add-ons are built into the game. An externally published "guide" is not.

Wait wait.. so you're telling me If I go to elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/file/view/Auridon%20Skyshards.png and print it out, sit it next to my keyboard, that it is somehow different than going to http://esoui.com/downloads/info128-SkyShards.html downloading the add-on makes it different? Or as I mentioned, having the map right up on a second second screen vs pulling it up in game?

I don't think either is wrong to use, but I don't find a distinction between the two just because one is player created and side-loaded with the game vs other means that offer equivalent access to the same information.

Arguing that neither is a form of cheating would an acceptable argument. You could cite that technically everyone has the same chance at access to the information so one player doesn't have advantage over another player thus not cheating. But saying they are different because it's built-in doesn't make sense. It'd be like saying that using an exploit is ok because it's a "built-in game function". It may not be functioning properly, but it's still built-in every bit as much as add-ons.

You misread my post.

The person I replied to said that addons "were cheating the same as printing out some user-written guide is cheating."

I pointed out that add-ons are not external - they are built into the game, therefore cannot possibly be cheating. I didn't actually say anything about an external guide. I just said an addon is NOT like an external guide, since addons are built in, and thus cannot be cheating.

Merlin13KAGL · June 2014

Heishi wrote: »

onlinegamer1 wrote: »

Heishi wrote: »

It's a form of cheating in the same manner as buying a guide, looking up a walkthrough, or downloading maps like this. Nothing that violates any rules though.

Would it really be different than finding a map with the resource locations and printing it (or having it up on a second screen) while playing?

This is false.

Using an addon is the same thing as pressing "M" to open the map. Its built into the game, therefore, its not cheating to use a built-in game function. Add-ons are built into the game. An externally published "guide" is not.

Wait wait.. so you're telling me If I go to elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/file/view/Auridon%20Skyshards.png and print it out, sit it next to my keyboard, that it is somehow different than going to http://esoui.com/downloads/info128-SkyShards.html downloading the add-on makes it different? Or as I mentioned, having the map right up on a second second screen vs pulling it up in game?

I don't think either is wrong to use, but I don't find a distinction between the two just because one is player created and side-loaded with the game vs other means that offer equivalent access to the same information.

Arguing that neither is a form of cheating would an acceptable argument. You could cite that technically everyone has the same chance at access to the information so one player doesn't have advantage over another player thus not cheating. But saying they are different because it's built-in doesn't make sense. It'd be like saying that using an exploit is ok because it's a "built-in game function". It may not be functioning properly, but it's still built-in every bit as much as add-ons.

There is little distinction between the two, but again, you are taking away from the exploration factor of the game.

It's the in-game morality of saying it's okay to use something you have discovered vice something someone else has.

It's analogous to saying sitting back and watching someone else play the game is effectively the same as playing the game yourself. I believe we could all agree that the two, while functionally the same, are fundamentally very different.

Personally, I'm not even a fan of the quest markers that show up on the compass, while in the vastness of this world, I understand their purpose.

To each his own.

Fog of War as an toggle option. Certain personal map marking/notes as a toggle option...

Sanibel · June 2014

How is this any different from me marking down mat locations on a printed map of the area? Just because you have no use for an addon like this doesn't mean it's cheating.

Heishi · June 2014

onlinegamer1 wrote: »

Heishi wrote: »

onlinegamer1 wrote: »

Heishi wrote: »

It's a form of cheating in the same manner as buying a guide, looking up a walkthrough, or downloading maps like this. Nothing that violates any rules though.

Would it really be different than finding a map with the resource locations and printing it (or having it up on a second screen) while playing?

This is false.

Using an addon is the same thing as pressing "M" to open the map. Its built into the game, therefore, its not cheating to use a built-in game function. Add-ons are built into the game. An externally published "guide" is not.

Wait wait.. so you're telling me If I go to elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/file/view/Auridon%20Skyshards.png and print it out, sit it next to my keyboard, that it is somehow different than going to http://esoui.com/downloads/info128-SkyShards.html downloading the add-on makes it different? Or as I mentioned, having the map right up on a second second screen vs pulling it up in game?

I don't think either is wrong to use, but I don't find a distinction between the two just because one is player created and side-loaded with the game vs other means that offer equivalent access to the same information.

Arguing that neither is a form of cheating would an acceptable argument. You could cite that technically everyone has the same chance at access to the information so one player doesn't have advantage over another player thus not cheating. But saying they are different because it's built-in doesn't make sense. It'd be like saying that using an exploit is ok because it's a "built-in game function". It may not be functioning properly, but it's still built-in every bit as much as add-ons.

You misread my post.

The person I replied to said that addons "were cheating the same as printing out some user-written guide is cheating."

I pointed out that add-ons are not external - they are built into the game, therefore cannot possibly be cheating. I didn't actually say anything about an external guide. I just said an addon is NOT like an external guide, since addons are built in, and thus cannot be cheating.

I was the person you replied to

I wasn't saying that cheating is specifically wrong. Maybe a better example would help. Let's say you were playing Golden Eye on Nintendo 64, you use a code to get all weapons unlocked and infinite ammo. It's cheating. It's built into the game, a core function, but still considered cheating.

Being built into the game does not mean it's not cheating. For a long long time games had cheating built in. They even called them cheat codes

Going to something more recent, Skyrim. If you pop up the console and use TGM to turn on god-mode, it's cheating. It's a built-in function of the game, but it is what it is.

Now is using a map with resource nodes dotted on it as severe cheating as TGM, of course not. But it still plain and simply is.

Merlin13KAGL · June 2014

Heishi wrote: »

I was the person you replied to

I wasn't saying that cheating is specifically wrong. Maybe a better example would help. Let's say you were playing Golden Eye on Nintendo 64, you use a code to get all weapons unlocked and infinite ammo. It's cheating. It's built into the game, a core function, but still considered cheating.

Being built into the game does not mean it's not cheating. For a long long time games had cheating built in. They even called them cheat codes

Going to something more recent, Skyrim. If you pop up the console and use TGM to turn on god-mode, it's cheating. It's a built-in function of the game, but it is what it is.

Now is using a map with resource nodes dotted on it as severe cheating as TGM, of course not. But it still plain and simply is.

@Heishi‌

Uh...Ambiguous post is ambiguous?

Cheating is cheating. Cheating's not wrong. Built into game does not mean it's not cheating. Not being told it's not wrong does not make it not cheating which does not make it not wrong...

Right? (Whew...that one was rough.)

(In short, and in full agreement, though it may be hard to tell, just because it has not been stated to be explicitly wrong does not by default render it right.)

Sihnfahl · June 2014

Heishi wrote: »

Now is using a map with resource nodes dotted on it as severe cheating as TGM, of course not. But it still plain and simply is.

Again, how is it cheating?

It's the same as taking a paper map and marking a point of interest.

If someone else has discovered a point of interest you haven't, you can share knowledge. They can learn what your points of interests are, and vice versa...

ThisOnePosts · June 2014

It's not cheating, it's just a tool that makes things easier. However I personally don't use it nor would I want to... Harvest nodes are all over the place and given I've explored every nook and cranny in the game, I would not want to see them popping up everywhere I go.

Not to mention I only know a few and will not forget, that seem to have a high chance of spawning Kuta. I'm not sure if my RNG is just crazy good at a few of them or if it's intentional, but they are hidden gems and I never see others around racing for it when I pop in every now and then.

yodased · June 2014

Why though? What advantage does a player have over another player knowing where gathering resources are?

Unless you are a bot and/or speed hacking then simply knowing/seeing where things to click on isn't harming anyone else.

I personally don't care if you know where the best jute patches are before I do, if that's your thing then good for you, enjoy!

The question I would like to ask you if you think this is cheating and shouldn't be allowed:

How does this negatively affect your experience?

Thanks

Kyoma · June 2014

elderscrollsb16_ESO109 wrote: »

Despair9 wrote: »

It doesn't feel like cheating for me.

I'm using it so I can see which places on the map I visited too, that way I'm not missing anything.

try :
http://www.esoui.com/downloads/info500-TrueExploration.html

Ohhhh, very cool!

Too bad I've already explored (almost) everything by now.

DeLindsay · June 2014

How is it remotely cheating? You still have to run to all those node locations and maybe another player farmed it before you got there, or there are enemies you can't kill near it, etc. I have several "paths" remembered by heart in a few zones for farming mats, am I cheating because I use my eyeballs to see things and my brain to remember where they are?

isengrimb16_ESO · June 2014

It's no different if it were a case of a player with eidetic memory. You do have to find the nodes first (though map sharing, well, that's the benefit of having friends, I guess).

Not fussed by people who use it.

zgrssd · June 2014

The stance that seems to apply to stuff like Harvest Map, Skyshard, Lorebook and Treasure Map addons is simple:
If it can be done with a external guide (wheter physical copy, something openend in your browser you tab switch to/have on the second monitor, or a crystall ball you use as focus for you real psichic abilities) it can be put on the game UI using addons.

If it was not allowed we would not be able to place anything on the compass or map.
We have been able to do that since beta and the functions have been expanded isntead of lessened. If they thought this one use was a problem, they now can frobid it anyway*.
So it is obviosuly not cheating as far as Zenimax is concerned.

If you think it is:
Ingame Formular, Bug Report, "Exploit!" is your way to go.

*Note that I asumed the Addon EULA was already part of the game before. The only thing that caught me by surprise is that they had to add it isntead of having it already.

Heishi · June 2014

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Heishi wrote: »

I was the person you replied to

I wasn't saying that cheating is specifically wrong. Maybe a better example would help. Let's say you were playing Golden Eye on Nintendo 64, you use a code to get all weapons unlocked and infinite ammo. It's cheating. It's built into the game, a core function, but still considered cheating.

Being built into the game does not mean it's not cheating. For a long long time games had cheating built in. They even called them cheat codes

Going to something more recent, Skyrim. If you pop up the console and use TGM to turn on god-mode, it's cheating. It's a built-in function of the game, but it is what it is.

Now is using a map with resource nodes dotted on it as severe cheating as TGM, of course not. But it still plain and simply is.

@Heishi‌

Uh...Ambiguous post is ambiguous?

Cheating is cheating. Cheating's not wrong. Built into game does not mean it's not cheating. Not being told it's not wrong does not make it not cheating which does not make it not wrong...

Right? (Whew...that one was rough.)

(In short, and in full agreement, though it may be hard to tell, just because it has not been stated to be explicitly wrong does not by default render it right.)

Pretty much. I try to leave things ambiguous because I'm not here to decide how someone else should think or what their views should be. Everyone is 100% entitled to their own views. I was simply overstating my case because I'm a fan of parity.

Everyone interprets things differently and I'm bad about explaining what I mean concisely, so.. by posing the same thought process in a number of different ways, the one that makes sense helps explain the others vis-a-vis helping explain my point

Although even still some people don't really get it ~.~

Like saying it's not cheating because it's just sharing information you could get on your own. It's self defeating logic. Basically it's not cheating because someone else knows how to do it thus there's no such thing as cheating because either A) you figured it out or B ) someone else figured it out and shared it.

I think people missed the part in school where doing your own quiz was correct and copying your answers from someone else's quiz was wrong.

Right and wrong in itself is a policy built on each individuals own moral compass. Either ways the add-on gives a decided advantage over the originally designed game mechanics by proxy of a third party's work XD

An exclusion, if you made the add-on from your own knowledge, or the add-on marked node locations as you discovered them, this would not be cheating.

Edit: getting rid of the unintended

face

onlinegamer1 · June 2014

Heishi wrote: »

I was the person you replied to

Being built into the game does not mean it's not cheating.

Yes, it does. Pressing "M" to see a map of the entire Zone you're in before you've even explored it is built into the game. Its NOT CHEATING to press "M".

Addons, unlike external guides, are an inherent part of the game, no different than the Map or Character Sheet. They are not synonymous with "cheat codes" for other games at all, that is a horrible analogy, and doesn't apply at all.

Addons, DEFINITIVELY, are not cheating.

Sihnfahl · June 2014

Heishi wrote: »

I think people missed the part in school where doing your own quiz was correct and copying your answers from someone else's quiz was wrong.

Logical comparison fallacy. In a quiz, you are expected to use nothing but your own knowledge to answer the questions. It is, after all, something designed to test your own memory and reasoning ability.

How is sharing a map location with a friend comparable?

Heishi · June 2014

Sihnfahl wrote: »

Heishi wrote: »

I think people missed the part in school where doing your own quiz was correct and copying your answers from someone else's quiz was wrong.

Logical comparison fallacy. In a quiz, you are expected to use nothing but your own knowledge to answer the questions. It is, after all, something designed to test your own memory and reasoning ability.

How is sharing a map location with a friend comparable?

Are you friends with the add-on dev? know them in any way? Every game is a test of one's skills. Which I could outline but won't because it's a lost battle.

I've presented facts and real example of cheating that is okay and it's getting nowhere.

I'm afraid we shall just have to agree to disagree, no? Our ideas of what is equivalent don't seem to match up. It's getting to the point where pulling out the dictionary and going into linguistics would be the only resolution and I'm out of time, not to mention don't really feel like getting into THAT deep of a discussion of something so small

Have a good day gentlemen/ladies.

OrangeTheCat · June 2014

I used to have this add-on. But I found I never needed to use it. So I deleted it as finding resources is not at all hard and it is one less add-on to potentially screw up the game.

elderscrollsb16_ESO109 · July 2014

Heishi wrote: »

Are you friends with the add-on dev? know them in any way?

Well, the add-on dev doesn't provide any data about resources locations, they just provide the tool that could allow 2 friends to share their data (and not even that since the exchange process is not included in the addon in ESO like it is in wow).

So the exchange of information that you could interpret as "cheating" (I do not) is totally external of the add-ons.

Anyway, as said by some others, it's a non existent problem, considering how easy is it to find resources (and the low value of those very resources).l

SirAndy · July 2014

Some of us have been doing this on paper since well before launch. I started mapping resources last October.

For example, like this:
thesidekickorder.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=17

This AddOn is really just an in-game version of what i (and many others) have been doing manually ...
;-)

Nyghthowler · July 2014

Please quit hating on the Ad-ons. They're the only things that seem to work right most of the time.

DigitalHype · July 2014

WylieCoyote1511 wrote: »

Right so there are no add ons that show you where everything is from the get go, even skyshards?

I just found this amazing website, Google.

It showed me where all the Skyshard's are. Uh oh! Am I cheating?

Cogo · July 2014

Addons are great for TES based games. Makes everyone able to "form" the same game to suit them better. Most addons are about UI, cosmetic etc.

But funny enough the WAY most common are the skyshard, lorebook, questfinder addon.

I dont judge anyone for using any addon.

However, I think I found a big reason why I from day 1 liked this game so much and just kept increasing my enjoyment, even with bugs.

I use 0 addons, never google, takes most time of any player in the game to advance in level, but I might be one of the best explorers.

Still, at vet 1 now, I enjoy the hell out of the game. Exploring everything and finding out where stuff is, by looking, searching, running in by luck. Figure out tactics etc.

I think....I have more fun then most simply because there is so much I can find.
And I have half possible skillpoints, or less. So I have to carefully choose my skills still, which adds even more to the game. Now at Vet level, I REALLY need to mix all kinds of skills.....and I dont have skillpoints enough so I adapt and when I get that next one! wow!

I think, I have more fun then most

. I do wonder if it is that I find out everything myself. using journal and I do get tips from my guild, but never in exact terms.

Not sure if I feel sorry for all, or happy I am bullheaded and refuse to let any computer show me what I can do myself!

someuser · July 2014

I don't think its cheating at all. Half the time the nodes aren't there anyhow because bots got to them first. If anything, that add-on has really opened my eyes to how bad the bot problem really is.

Mescalamba · July 2014

Im using it, cause my memory is horrible and if I need some mat at least I know where to look..

No its not "right" in sense of exploring game, but then, we are past it now.

Mablung · July 2014

Cogo wrote: »

Some Words

Why must you post in every add on thread that you get great enjoyment from not using add ons? It is not on topic. The topic of this discussion is about map markers and add ons that do this.

Cogo · July 2014

Mablung wrote: »

Cogo wrote: »

Some Words

Why must you post in every add on thread that you get great enjoyment from not using add ons? It is not on topic. The topic of this discussion is about map markers and add ons that do this.

Sorry :-(

Trying to fit in.

Lyall84 · July 2014

WylieCoyote1511 wrote: »

Also I noticed it shows you the direction of nodes on your navigation bar, going by the pictures.

Doesn't this then make putting SP into the skill that allows you to see glowing nodes at a distance pointless?

I don't use this mod, and I find "keen eye" pointless. Nodes are already easy to see with out the glowing dust rising off of them. If I can't notice the node with out those skill points wasted, I don't deserve to find the node. Not to mention nodes are everywhere, if I miss one, there is two more around the corner.

SystemiK · July 2014

At the end of the day, it is ZOS who decide if an add-on is crossing the line or not. You guys can go back and forth on the issue til the end of time but your verdicts of cheating, not cheating mean nothing.

Watching these forums is like a watching a bunch of people arguing over what time the sun should rise.

SFBryan18 · July 2014

Please give a description of what the add on does.

Blackwidow · July 2014

It is cheating, but it is accepted cheating.

If you took the time to make a map and use that map, it would be much more effort than a built in program.

You might as well say using a car in a foot race is not cheating, because you can still get there on foot.

However, ZOS in it's lack of wisdom let's things like this into the game.

It does not bother me, because bots are much more of a problem. Bots are not cheating either, just a program that let's you pick resources. You could do it manually, like you can manually draw a map, it's just the program does it for you.