Armor Passives and Imbalance

Lyall84 · June 2014

GothicPython wrote: »

Lyall84 wrote: »

GothicPython wrote: »

Lyall84 wrote: »

Almost agree with you on the differences, I think the difference of mitigation between heavy and medium should be 25% and another 25% between medium and light. 10 to 12% between types seems too small to me.

I respect your input, but don't you think a 50% difference between heavy and light is too significant? We'd have the same situation we do now only with heavy armor. Over the course of a fight a 10-20% difference between heavy, medium, and light will make a huge and noticeable difference on its own even if it sounds small.

We are only talking about armor here not spell resistant. In pve, the light armor should not be taking physical damage unless the tank is not doing their job. So this difference is mainly effects pvp. In pvp, if they do not have that 50% difference in physical resistance between light and heavy, why would anyone go with a physical stamina build, be it medium or heavy?

Medium armor gets 21% critical and 10% attack speed. Light armor gets 41% spell pen and 10% critical... has the option of mage light for another 20% spell critical from the morph, and on top of that, for the most part they are ranged. So it is 21% critical and 10% attack speed melee vs 42% spell pen and 30% critical ranged.

Heavy gets 7% melee damage (14 if we had our way) and is fighting something that all his armor means nothing against. It is however much spell resistances he has vs that same 42% spell pen and 30% critical ranged monster.

Medium armor should be able to have an easier time taking on light armor vs heavy just by the nature of what armor they are wearing. Light armor should have an easier time taking on heavy than medium based on the speed and damage outputs (medium should be faster and do more damage). Heavy armor should have an easier time with medium vs light based on the type of damage they do.

10 to 15% between steps is too small vs that 42% spell pen mountain. That number by it self tells me the steps need to be at least that same 42% between light and heavy.

The issues between the armor Passives is the main reason behind this post. And you make some very good points, but my only fear is that if you increase the mitigation difference between the different armors too much then everyone will just swap to heavy and we'll have the same issue just backwards with a bunch of imbalances still.

Shaun98ca2 wrote: »

I think people are missing the point of the armors themselves. The armors are only supposed to give slight bonuses. The thing about the game is player skill means more than what your wearing.

IF your a skilled player you SHOULD be able to tank fine in Light Armor considering you geared yourself to at least reach the soft cap.

CAN Heavy armor do it better YES, but Heavy armor SHOULDNT be the only means of tanking.

Spell Casters CAN wear Heavy Armor as it will increase their survivability but it will also at the same time decrease their casting efficiency.

This all lends well to the theme of the game with is Play the Way You Want.

There is NOTHING wrong with armor in the game. Its the balance between Magicka and Stamina that's the real issue.

But again with Magicka/Stamina there is a bigger picture we are still missing. LOT of people are on the forums claiming they are able to play their Melee classes quite well even in Veteran Rank.

You clearly haven't looked close enough to the differences between the armor types and all of their Passives. Based on the Passives the armor lines give heavy is geared towards being the "tank" line, medium the "stamina dps/stealth" line, and light as the "ranged dps Magicka" line. However due to imbalances among these lines and current soft cap standings...light is far superior. You can do anything and everything in it because it ful-fills all roles. It should not be like this and is one of the main reasons for all imbalances in this game.

A person wearing light armor should not be a viable tank because that is not what the armor line is intended for based on the information presented to us.

And you are COMPLETELY wrong...armor passives and current softcap ratings are definitely not fine...they are completely imbalances right now, and is the main reason why everyone is running around wearin robes as if this were Harry Potter online.

Just because people are able to do it, and still play the game does not mean there still isn't an imbalance...I do have a stamina build and I can play it, but it is no where near as good as a Magicka build is. I'm not saying that stamina builds need to become op (far from it) but they do need to be re-worked to actually make them viable options.

Agreed, the adjustments need to make sure the balance doesn't flip to heavy armor. Right now the differences between light to medium to heavy seem to be around 7 to 10% at best. I do not think a 10 to 15 % will be enough of a difference. 25% may be to much. Maybe 15 to 20 between types would be more balanced.

All I know is that right now, the trade off for light to heavy armor (skipping the medium set) is a risk of taking about 15% additional physical damage that almost no one uses, vs the gain of spell resistance which is most used, 10% critical (30% with mage light) and 42% spell pen. Which is enough that medium armor might as well be naked, or heavy armor barely covered at best. There is no ignore 42% armor passive, so light armor needs to have that same or similar risk of 42% armor reduction or more damage from physical damage. Instead it is only currently about 15%.

If you adjusted the armor benefits so that light armor took a dangerous amount of damage from physical instead of just 15% less than heavy, for PvP at least, you would see an increase of stamina build and weapon skill usage if they were able to hurt light armor users as much as light armor users can hurt medium and heavy.

Either way, any adjustments need to be careful to not tip the balance the other way.

dragnier · June 2014

I just hope they fix this sooner rather than later... though fixing stam weapons should probably come first. Because that fix would mean more people using physical damage in PvP which "should" translate into more interest in mitigation. That doesn't fix the imbalance of physical vs. spell damage in PvE though...

SilverWF · June 2014

Again "Hey, I'm heavy user I have some 'nice' ideas about Light armor, and doesn't matter what I didn't know anything about Weapon, Guild and World skills, Armor sets, enchants, traits and potions" thread...

ruze84b14_ESO wrote: »

Not all medium armor builds are stealth builds, meaning one of your primary passives is completely wasted if you aren't stealthy.

too bad for them - they are didn't understand this game.

NobleX35 · June 2014

SilverWF wrote: »

Again "Hey, I'm heavy user I have some 'nice' ideas about Light armor, and doesn't matter what I didn't know anything about Weapon, Guild and World skills, Armor sets, enchants, traits and potions" thread...

ruze84b14_ESO wrote: »

Not all medium armor builds are stealth builds, meaning one of your primary passives is completely wasted if you aren't stealthy.

too bad for them - they are didn't understand this game.

Based on my understanding of your very poorly worded post (attempted insult)...do you seriously deny that there is an imbalance between the light armor passives and the other two lines? How many times must it be re-iterated that Light armor dominates this game because of how much better the passives are in comparison to the other two lines?

Next time, please try adding something meaningful to the discussion or don't comment at all.

Lynx7386 · June 2014

1. Resolve: 21% armor and spell resistance rating - extra armor increase isn't all the appealing given how easy it is to reach softcap already, though the extra spell resistance is kinda nice. A change to make this more useful would require a much significant difference between heavy and light armor and much higher softcaps.

I'd say make it a 1/2/3% reduction in all incoming damage per piece of armor worn, taking effect after armor mitigation. That way anyone wearing heavy armor would have an extra layer of mitigation on incoming damage.

Say your armor puts you at 30% reduction, and you take a 1000 damage hit. A light/medium armor user with that level of reduction would take 700 damage. A heavy armor user would have that 700 damage reduced by an additional 21% (if wearing 7/7 heavy), thus taking only 553 damage.

2. Constitution: 28% health recovery - health recovery is so minuscule to begin with that a 28% increase is not very appealing at all. Maybe increase that max percentage to 42% (1.5x magicka and stamina recovery) or change to 21% health recovery and 21% stamina recovery

I'd say give it health, stamina, AND magicka recovery, probably 14% for all 3. I'd like to see heavy armor not only utilized by tanks, but by hybrid players as well. Medium is focused towards pure melee/pure stamina builds, light is focused towards pure caster/pure magicka builds, and heavy armor should focus on tanking and hybrids by providing equal bonuses to both resources (but less than medium or light armor give to magicka and stamina).

3. Juggernaut: Increase power of melee attacks by 7% - a nice perk, but should be increased to say, 14%, to make it more useful and more appealing.

I'd like this one to give the perk to all -physical- damage, so that it still applies to some spells as well as bows (and not just melee weapons).

4. Bracing: decrease cost of blocking by 20% when wearing a 5 pieces set of heavy armor - just like juggernaut, it's a nice perk, but just not significant enough. To make this more useful maybe increase that cost decrease to between 30% and 50%

The problem here is that it stacks with the passives from 1h/shield. Perhaps instead of bumping up the reduction on blocking, the bracing passive should provide some kind of resistance to crowd control (at least knockbacks/pulls).

5. Rapid Mending: increase incoming healing by 7% - on a personal note I've never really been much of a fan of +incoming healing in any mmo I've played, but I would say to either increase that to 14% or what I'd prefer is just a flat decrease to incoming damage, say 14%?

Personally I dont like the incoming healing stat either, and this is probably the least useful of heavy armor's passives. I'd say change it entirely - Perhaps make it a maximum health boost so you can achieve a larger health pool.

3. Fortress: Decreases the radius in which enemies can detect you by 42%, and also decreases your cost for sneaking by 56% - This sounds like a nice perk, but it also sounds very situational to pvp or an assassin type class, which should maybe be moved to the Dark Brotherhood skill line whenever that skill line becomes available. Maybe instead change to 42% armor penetration (to match light armor spell penetration passive)? Either that or change to a 21% cost reduction for stamina based skills.

I like both of your suggestions here, but the problem is that we've got stamina cost reduction in the weapon skill lines already (so that would necessitate two changes instead of just one). Also, the reduced sneak cost is really helpful for my nightblade.

Assuming that the thieves guild or dark brotherhood lines give something to reduce sneak cost, I'd love having this passive increase armor penetration for all physical attacks.

1. Evocation: Reduces the magicka cost of spells by 21% - I personally feel that this perk is fine, only so long as Half of all class skills for all classes change to using stamina instead of magicka and that utility effects (roll, cc break, block) all get they're own resource bar. If that change is not implemented then move this perk to #4 and change the percentage to 15% so long as the player is wearing a 5 piece light set or more.

I disagree here. As someone who plays both a stamina-based character and a magicka-based one, yes the stamina character suffers in this regard - but you'd be extremely hard pressed to find anyone willing to heal pve or pvp if this passive were nerfed. Healing already sucks magicka like crazy, there's no reason to make a knee-jerk change that will cripple healers just because a lot of people are abusing light armor/destro staff synergies.

This passive, IMO, is fine, stamina just needs an equivalent. Personally I'd change all of the weapon tree skills which reduce stamina costs to effect -all- stamina based abilities, rather than just those weapon abilities, so long as that weapon type is equipped, that way both magicka and stamina would have equivalent reductions in costs across the board.

3. Spell Warding: Increase base spell resistance by 42% - It doesn't make any sense in my opinion that wearing light armor should provide this much spell resistance and is one of the primary reasons I feel makes this line so OP in it's current state. This number should be brought down to 14% so as to provide a greater incentive to wearing heavy armor if you want more survivability.

The reasoning is simple, cloth doesnt conduct energy as well as metal. Heavy armor (and medium) are geared towards reducing incoming physical damage, not magical damage, and I dont see an issue with that. Tanks can deal with spell damage in different ways, such as through spell reflect (defensive posture) with the 1h/shield line, or class abilities of a similar nature.

The problem right now isnt that light armor has better spell resistance, it's that light armor doesnt have much less physical resistance than heavy, thus making heavy entirely obsolete. Changing some of those heavy armor passives would go a long way towards helping that.

4. Prodigy: Increase spell critical chances by 10% when wearing at least 5 pieces of light armor - This passive seems fine to me, however if any changes that I stated in #1 go into effect - move this passive to #1 and change to 21% critical hit chance (remove or reduce critical hit chance rating from mage-light if implemented).

I would love to be able to keep my spell crit on my caster without having to expend a skill slot on magelight, I really would. Even just changing prodigy to be a 10/20% increase in crit with a 5/5 light armor set, and then removing the crit bonus from magelight, would be awesome in my book.

I hate having to use magelight for the crit bonus, it always feels like my caster has one less ability slot than my melee fighter does.

5. Concentration: ignore 42% of an enemy’s magic resistance - This passive is another reason why the light armor line is so OP in it's current state. This number should be reduced to 14%, or as stated above, an armor penetration perk needs to be added to either the medium or heavy armor line.

I think it's fine so long as the armor pen is added to medium to give it equal offensive utility.

Now, all those things aside, I think one other big change needs to be made:

Annulment, Evasion, and Immovable need to be made usable only if you have at least 4 pieces of that armor type equipped. This would prevent players with 7/7 light from using immovable, and if they wanted that extra survivability and cc immunity they'd have to sacrafice some of the light armor passives to get it.

NobleX35 · June 2014

Lynx7386 wrote: »

1. Resolve: 21% armor and spell resistance rating - extra armor increase isn't all the appealing given how easy it is to reach softcap already, though the extra spell resistance is kinda nice. A change to make this more useful would require a much significant difference between heavy and light armor and much higher softcaps.

I'd say make it a 1/2/3% reduction in all incoming damage per piece of armor worn, taking effect after armor mitigation. That way anyone wearing heavy armor would have an extra layer of mitigation on incoming damage.

Say your armor puts you at 30% reduction, and you take a 1000 damage hit. A light/medium armor user with that level of reduction would take 700 damage. A heavy armor user would have that 700 damage reduced by an additional 21% (if wearing 7/7 heavy), thus taking only 553 damage.

I completely agree with this and this is probably one of the better ideas I've seen so far...so long as it also applies to spell/Magicka based skills.

2. Constitution: 28% health recovery - health recovery is so minuscule to begin with that a 28% increase is not very appealing at all. Maybe increase that max percentage to 42% (1.5x magicka and stamina recovery) or change to 21% health recovery and 21% stamina recovery

I'd say give it health, stamina, AND magicka recovery, probably 14% for all 3. I'd like to see heavy armor not only utilized by tanks, but by hybrid players as well. Medium is focused towards pure melee/pure stamina builds, light is focused towards pure caster/pure magicka builds, and heavy armor should focus on tanking and hybrids by providing equal bonuses to both resources (but less than medium or light armor give to magicka and stamina).

Again I completely agree, it would be nice to maybe have an armor set that is geared more towards a hybrid build, but precautions would have to be taken so as to not make it too much better than a solid Magicka or solid stamina build.

3. Juggernaut: Increase power of melee attacks by 7% - a nice perk, but should be increased to say, 14%, to make it more useful and more appealing.

I'd like this one to give the perk to all -physical- damage, so that it still applies to some spells as well as bows (and not just melee weapons).

Again I agree, as it stands it's basically the same as the Hundings rage set and doesn't really provide enough of a bonus.

4. Bracing: decrease cost of blocking by 20% when wearing a 5 pieces set of heavy armor - just like juggernaut, it's a nice perk, but just not significant enough. To make this more useful maybe increase that cost decrease to between 30% and 50%

The problem here is that it stacks with the passives from 1h/shield. Perhaps instead of bumping up the reduction on blocking, the bracing passive should provide some kind of resistance to crowd control (at least knockbacks/pulls).

Interesting idea, however I would like to point out that even with the 1h/s Passives blocking still costs a ton and basically consumes your whole stamina bar. Either way, this passive needs some tweaking to become more useful

5. Rapid Mending: increase incoming healing by 7% - on a personal note I've never really been much of a fan of +incoming healing in any mmo I've played, but I would say to either increase that to 14% or what I'd prefer is just a flat decrease to incoming damage, say 14%?

Personally I dont like the incoming healing stat either, and this is probably the least useful of heavy armor's passives. I'd say change it entirely - Perhaps make it a maximum health boost so you can achieve a larger health pool.

Definitely a solid idea, and if implemented I'd say keep the numbers the same with max of 7% increase so that it's not too op. (for most vr players that'll equate to roughly 200 more health)

3. Fortress: Decreases the radius in which enemies can detect you by 42%, and also decreases your cost for sneaking by 56% - This sounds like a nice perk, but it also sounds very situational to pvp or an assassin type class, which should maybe be moved to the Dark Brotherhood skill line whenever that skill line becomes available. Maybe instead change to 42% armor penetration (to match light armor spell penetration passive)? Either that or change to a 21% cost reduction for stamina based skills.

I like both of your suggestions here, but the problem is that we've got stamina cost reduction in the weapon skill lines already (so that would necessitate two changes instead of just one). Also, the reduced sneak cost is really helpful for my nightblade.

Assuming that the thieves guild or dark brotherhood lines give something to reduce sneak cost, I'd love having this passive increase armor penetration for all physical attacks.

I see your point, so maybe instead of reduce stamina cost of abilities, medium armor gets a boost to overall stamina, like your suggestion with heavy and health? I for one would much prefer the armor pen bonus, but either way this again needs to be changed due to the fact that it is too situational to be an armor passive bonus.

1. Evocation: Reduces the magicka cost of spells by 21% - I personally feel that this perk is fine, only so long as Half of all class skills for all classes change to using stamina instead of magicka and that utility effects (roll, cc break, block) all get they're own resource bar. If that change is not implemented then move this perk to #4 and change the percentage to 15% so long as the player is wearing a 5 piece light set or more.

I disagree here. As someone who plays both a stamina-based character and a magicka-based one, yes the stamina character suffers in this regard - but you'd be extremely hard pressed to find anyone willing to heal pve or pvp if this passive were nerfed. Healing already sucks magicka like crazy, there's no reason to make a knee-jerk change that will cripple healers just because a lot of people are abusing light armor/destro staff synergies.

This passive, IMO, is fine, stamina just needs an equivalent. Personally I'd change all of the weapon tree skills which reduce stamina costs to effect -all- stamina based abilities, rather than just those weapon abilities, so long as that weapon type is equipped, that way both magicka and stamina would have equivalent reductions in costs across the board.

Just for re-iteration, my changes to the light armor line were based around the idea of bringing the line down to the current standings of medium and heavy armor, assuming those two didn't get changed. If they did get changed then all my suggestions for light were to be ignored.

With that said I guess we sort of disagree here. I still think the passive is too great, but maybe as far as healing goes some changes should be made there as well. The problem with this passive though is that it effects all skills that use Magicka which includes class skills, mages guild skills, destro and resto staff skills...now like I said this either needs to change or like you and I said, there needs to be an equivalent one for stamina.

3. Spell Warding: Increase base spell resistance by 42% - It doesn't make any sense in my opinion that wearing light armor should provide this much spell resistance and is one of the primary reasons I feel makes this line so OP in it's current state. This number should be brought down to 14% so as to provide a greater incentive to wearing heavy armor if you want more survivability.

The reasoning is simple, cloth doesnt conduct energy as well as metal. Heavy armor (and medium) are geared towards reducing incoming physical damage, not magical damage, and I dont see an issue with that. Tanks can deal with spell damage in different ways, such as through spell reflect (defensive posture) with the 1h/shield line, or class abilities of a similar nature.

The problem right now isnt that light armor has better spell resistance, it's that light armor doesnt have much less physical resistance than heavy, thus making heavy entirely obsolete. Changing some of those heavy armor passives would go a long way towards helping that.

Your logical reasoning makes sense, but at the same time as far balance is concerned I don't think light should give more mitigation bonuses to anything than heavy armor does.

In an earlier post I discuses possible mitigation changes for the different armors that follows along the lines of something like this:

Heavy: 45% physical resistance 45% spell resistance

Medium: 30% physical resistance 15% spell resistance

Light: 15% physical resistance 30% spell resistance

Obviously the numbers are subject to change for balance purposes, but the point is that heavy gets the highest mitigation bonuses for both types, while its inversed for both medium and light.

4. Prodigy: Increase spell critical chances by 10% when wearing at least 5 pieces of light armor - This passive seems fine to me, however if any changes that I stated in #1 go into effect - move this passive to #1 and change to 21% critical hit chance (remove or reduce critical hit chance rating from mage-light if implemented).

I would love to be able to keep my spell crit on my caster without having to expend a skill slot on magelight, I really would. Even just changing prodigy to be a 10/20% increase in crit with a 5/5 light armor set, and then removing the crit bonus from magelight, would be awesome in my book.

I hate having to use magelight for the crit bonus, it always feels like my caster has one less ability slot than my melee fighter does.

I won't lie, it does seem kind of silly for casters to be required to expend a slot like that without there being an equivalent for melee as well. I would say give something to melee that's similar to Mage light or take away Mage light and give light armor more crit rating.

5. Concentration: ignore 42% of an enemy’s magic resistance - This passive is another reason why the light armor line is so OP in it's current state. This number should be reduced to 14%, or as stated above, an armor penetration perk needs to be added to either the medium or heavy armor line.

I think it's fine so long as the armor pen is added to medium to give it equal offensive utility.

Again I suggested this change in the assumption that no changes were made to either medium or heavy. If changes are made to them, then this passive is fine like you said.

Now, all those things aside, I think one other big change needs to be made:

Annulment, Evasion, and Immovable need to be made usable only if you have at least 4 pieces of that armor type equipped. This would prevent players with 7/7 light from using immovable, and if they wanted that extra survivability and cc immunity they'd have to sacrafice some of the light armor passives to get it.

I definitely agree, not only would it prevent people from using immovable in 7/7 light like you said, but it would also promote more hybrid type builds. Which honestly would be nice to see!

Wifeaggro13 · June 2014

Shaun98ca2 wrote: »

Do you know the difference between Soft cap and Hard cap?

Its 20%

Heavy armor can reach to hard cap that's 50% damage reduction.

Just because soft cap is reached means nothing the real numbers are when you get closer to hard cap.

Except i can wear light armor as a sorc use ageis and stupid lightning armor and be 1100 over soft cap .
People have already proven with testing the armor makes a nickle and dime difference.
My heavy armor DK since all the nerfs is a garbage tank. i made an orc dk for all that health thinking i could make a traditional meat shield in heavy. My god damn sorc in light armor destroys my DK in performance across the board . ranged CC and damage. Incredible spell resistance. its just ridiculous. so many broken things in this game its unbelievable. too bad the 1-50 was just awesome the VR dungeons alot of fun in them too. Itemization across the board reminds me of AOC at launch , completely screwed

Wifeaggro13 · June 2014

GothicPython wrote: »

Lyall84 wrote: »

GothicPython wrote: »

Lyall84 wrote: »

Almost agree with you on the differences, I think the difference of mitigation between heavy and medium should be 25% and another 25% between medium and light. 10 to 12% between types seems too small to me.

I respect your input, but don't you think a 50% difference between heavy and light is too significant? We'd have the same situation we do now only with heavy armor. Over the course of a fight a 10-20% difference between heavy, medium, and light will make a huge and noticeable difference on its own even if it sounds small.

We are only talking about armor here not spell resistant. In pve, the light armor should not be taking physical damage unless the tank is not doing their job. So this difference is mainly effects pvp. In pvp, if they do not have that 50% difference in physical resistance between light and heavy, why would anyone go with a physical stamina build, be it medium or heavy?

Medium armor gets 21% critical and 10% attack speed. Light armor gets 41% spell pen and 10% critical... has the option of mage light for another 20% spell critical from the morph, and on top of that, for the most part they are ranged. So it is 21% critical and 10% attack speed melee vs 42% spell pen and 30% critical ranged.

Heavy gets 7% melee damage (14 if we had our way) and is fighting something that all his armor means nothing against. It is however much spell resistances he has vs that same 42% spell pen and 30% critical ranged monster.

Medium armor should be able to have an easier time taking on light armor vs heavy just by the nature of what armor they are wearing. Light armor should have an easier time taking on heavy than medium based on the speed and damage outputs (medium should be faster and do more damage). Heavy armor should have an easier time with medium vs light based on the type of damage they do.

10 to 15% between steps is too small vs that 42% spell pen mountain. That number by it self tells me the steps need to be at least that same 42% between light and heavy.

The issues between the armor Passives is the main reason behind this post. And you make some very good points, but my only fear is that if you increase the mitigation difference between the different armors too much then everyone will just swap to heavy and we'll have the same issue just backwards with a bunch of imbalances still.

Shaun98ca2 wrote: »

I think people are missing the point of the armors themselves. The armors are only supposed to give slight bonuses. The thing about the game is player skill means more than what your wearing.

IF your a skilled player you SHOULD be able to tank fine in Light Armor considering you geared yourself to at least reach the soft cap.

CAN Heavy armor do it better YES, but Heavy armor SHOULDNT be the only means of tanking.

Spell Casters CAN wear Heavy Armor as it will increase their survivability but it will also at the same time decrease their casting efficiency.

This all lends well to the theme of the game with is Play the Way You Want.

There is NOTHING wrong with armor in the game. Its the balance between Magicka and Stamina that's the real issue.

But again with Magicka/Stamina there is a bigger picture we are still missing. LOT of people are on the forums claiming they are able to play their Melee classes quite well even in Veteran Rank.

You clearly haven't looked close enough to the differences between the armor types and all of their Passives. Based on the Passives the armor lines give heavy is geared towards being the "tank" line, medium the "stamina dps/stealth" line, and light as the "ranged dps Magicka" line. However due to imbalances among these lines and current soft cap standings...light is far superior. You can do anything and everything in it because it ful-fills all roles. It should not be like this and is one of the main reasons for all imbalances in this game.

A person wearing light armor should not be a viable tank because that is not what the armor line is intended for based on the information presented to us.

And you are COMPLETELY wrong...armor passives and current softcap ratings are definitely not fine...they are completely imbalances right now, and is the main reason why everyone is running around wearin robes as if this were Harry Potter online.

Just because people are able to do it, and still play the game does not mean there still isn't an imbalance...I do have a stamina build and I can play it, but it is no where near as good as a Magicka build is. I'm not saying that stamina builds need to become op (far from it) but they do need to be re-worked to actually make them viable options.

Agreed. the game is so ass back wards. just look at the numbers on the armors. Heavy will get you 7% increases while light is increasing the perspective pools by 28 and 40 % lol.
And no a skilled player should not be able to tank in light armor its bull. i have both a sorc tank VR 5 in light and a heavy wearing DK Vr12 wearing heavy . my sorc destroy my DK in every aspect of tanking. from CC to AOE to survivability in light two 5 piece dps sets. Its g damn laughable this game launched in this state. The only thing that remotely affects mitigation is blocking with a sword and shield

AinGeal · June 2014

Shaun98ca2 wrote: »

I think people are missing the point of the armors themselves. The armors are only supposed to give slight bonuses. The thing about the game is player skill means more than what your wearing.

IF your a skilled player you SHOULD be able to tank fine in Light Armor considering you geared yourself to at least reach the soft cap.

CAN Heavy armor do it better YES, but Heavy armor SHOULDNT be the only means of tanking.

Spell Casters CAN wear Heavy Armor as it will increase their survivability but it will also at the same time decrease their casting efficiency.

This all lends well to the theme of the game with is Play the Way You Want.

There is NOTHING wrong with armor in the game. Its the balance between Magicka and Stamina that's the real issue.

But again with Magicka/Stamina there is a bigger picture we are still missing. LOT of people are on the forums claiming they are able to play their Melee classes quite well even in Veteran Rank.

LOL...wait, you are you serious...O.o

The role you play should absolutely be determined by the gear you use.

All out tank? Heavy armor with sword and board.
Tanky with a little more dps? Heavy armor with two hander or duel wield.
All out melee DPS? Medium armor and 2 hander or duel wield.
All out healer? Light armor and resto staff.
etc.

It's the class skills that should give slight bonuses. A person's class should be about the gear combination they choose to go with. The class you pick at the start is just a launching point. Or it was suppose to be according the devs whenever they talked about the game while it was still in development.

Instead there is a massive imbalance where light armor and staffs are king and the class you choose and the active/passive skills it brings you makes a major impact from lvl 1 all the way to V12.

Don't get me wrong. I'm all for player skill > game numbers but player/character role within a group should be based on the gear chosen > class chosen.

Shaun98ca2 · June 2014

AinGeal wrote: »

Shaun98ca2 wrote: »

I think people are missing the point of the armors themselves. The armors are only supposed to give slight bonuses. The thing about the game is player skill means more than what your wearing.

IF your a skilled player you SHOULD be able to tank fine in Light Armor considering you geared yourself to at least reach the soft cap.

CAN Heavy armor do it better YES, but Heavy armor SHOULDNT be the only means of tanking.

Spell Casters CAN wear Heavy Armor as it will increase their survivability but it will also at the same time decrease their casting efficiency.

This all lends well to the theme of the game with is Play the Way You Want.

There is NOTHING wrong with armor in the game. Its the balance between Magicka and Stamina that's the real issue.

But again with Magicka/Stamina there is a bigger picture we are still missing. LOT of people are on the forums claiming they are able to play their Melee classes quite well even in Veteran Rank.

LOL...wait, you are you serious...O.o

The role you play should absolutely be determined by the gear you use.

All out tank? Heavy armor with sword and board.
Tanky with a little more dps? Heavy armor with two hander or duel wield.
All out melee DPS? Medium armor and 2 hander or duel wield.
All out healer? Light armor and resto staff.
etc.

It's the class skills that should give slight bonuses. A person's class should be about the gear combination they choose to go with. The class you pick at the start is just a launching point. Or it was suppose to be according the devs whenever they talked about the game while it was still in development.

Instead there is a massive imbalance where light armor and staffs are king and the class you choose and the active/passive skills it brings you makes a major impact from lvl 1 all the way to V12.

Don't get me wrong. I'm all for player skill > game numbers but player/character role within a group should be based on the gear chosen > class chosen.

This is VERY serious other games are starting to adopt this type of thinking. Just because your wearing cloth doesn't mean you shouldn't be able to tank.

Magic abilities and enchantments should be able to allow a person wearing any type of materials to Tank.

This game has it so a person wearing heavy armor will have slightly better survivability over those using light or medium.

A caster should be able to wear Heavy Armor if the want to increase their survivability but still be viable.

Same thing for a Melee build they use Medium armor to increase their DPS output or Heavy to increase their survivability but still perform well in their DPS role.

This is how ZOS is achieving their "play as you want", by using few restrictions.

The only real issue with armor is peoples perception of them and the fact there is a current Magicka/Stamina issue.

Light Armor is not that amazing, Magicka builds are and Light Armor just makes them better.

Ashchild · June 2014

I would like to see heavy armor offer a pure damage reduction stat if worn as a set. Conversely, the trade off being that I do much lower damage potential.

Whatever the changes, heavy armor needs to demonstrate a dramatic spectrum of raw survivability from light armor. But that can't happen because everyone is made of glass, and magicka is the true resource of self-healing and sustenance. So you always have more effective health wearing bed-sheets.

Shaun98ca2 · June 2014

I can tell you right now as a healer a Tank wearing Heavy Armor is MUCH easier to keep alive then one NOT wearing Heavy Armor. You can feel the difference as a healer in the different armors in the game. Light Armor people are just a pain in the ar$e to keep versus someone using Heavy Armor.

Ashchild · June 2014

Sorry, I had solo play in mind when I wrote that. That much is true, if you have someone else's mana bar to supply you. But on your own going against a VR boss, I find more magicka is vastly superior to a slight buff in damage mitigation.

Sakiri · June 2014

Lyall84 wrote: »

GothicPython wrote: »

Lyall84 wrote: »

I agree with the imbalance, here are my suggestions.

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/111254/armor-passives-suggested-fixes#latest

I didn't think too much had to be done with the heavy armor, but I also agree that the soft and hard cap limits for armor need to be elevated.

Haha our posts are rather similar. I do disagree though that not much needs to be done to heavy armor. Currently heavy armor is the worst line with some of the worst passives. I personally think that heavy armor actually needs the most help right now, but that's just me.

Heavy armor is designed to be the tank armor, not the melee dps armor. Every time I have tossed on heavy armor and headed into a dungeon, it seems like healers have no problems keeping me up.

I do think three things need to be done in regards to heavy armor though. First, raise the soft and hard cap for armor, to like 75% damage reduction instead of 50%. Second, increase the amount of armor the passive gives to 6% per piece, and leave the spell resistance at 3% per piece. Third, double the Juggernaut passive amount.

After reading your post, seeing how Health enchants give more value than
stamina/magicka enchants of the same value. I agree with doubling the health regeneration value of heavy armor. Adjusting the healing received on the other hand, I think if you tweak that too much, you will turn tank classes into PvP monsters. DKs for example have a 30% self heal which is already insane, adjust the amount of healing received too much, and they can keep themselves up forever without external healing.

Supposed to be the tank armor but tank damage is pathetic and people dont want(nor should they need yo) carry 2 sets.

On top of it, if you have enough dps your tank can roll light, sword/board, and softcapped armor and up their dps by a load.

Theres no benefit to heavy, even for tanking. Armor reducing damage coming in, the amount is pathetic and VR mobs hit me just as hard regardless of what Im wearing due to softcaps being easy to get.

Nox_Aeterna · June 2014

What people must also understand is that , while the passives are umbalanced , so are the active skills.

There is no question immovable is by far the best one of them all and may alone make worth using heavy armor on itself if they added a requirement of 5 pieces.

Now i dont support this idea , i would rather be able to use any skill on any set , but i wish more people making these threads also had ideas when it came to balancing the current active skills , because they are in no any better balanced than the passives.

AinGeal · June 2014

Shaun98ca2 wrote: »

AinGeal wrote: »

Shaun98ca2 wrote: »

I think people are missing the point of the armors themselves. The armors are only supposed to give slight bonuses. The thing about the game is player skill means more than what your wearing.

IF your a skilled player you SHOULD be able to tank fine in Light Armor considering you geared yourself to at least reach the soft cap.

CAN Heavy armor do it better YES, but Heavy armor SHOULDNT be the only means of tanking.

Spell Casters CAN wear Heavy Armor as it will increase their survivability but it will also at the same time decrease their casting efficiency.

This all lends well to the theme of the game with is Play the Way You Want.

There is NOTHING wrong with armor in the game. Its the balance between Magicka and Stamina that's the real issue.

But again with Magicka/Stamina there is a bigger picture we are still missing. LOT of people are on the forums claiming they are able to play their Melee classes quite well even in Veteran Rank.

LOL...wait, you are you serious...O.o

The role you play should absolutely be determined by the gear you use.

All out tank? Heavy armor with sword and board.
Tanky with a little more dps? Heavy armor with two hander or duel wield.
All out melee DPS? Medium armor and 2 hander or duel wield.
All out healer? Light armor and resto staff.
etc.

It's the class skills that should give slight bonuses. A person's class should be about the gear combination they choose to go with. The class you pick at the start is just a launching point. Or it was suppose to be according the devs whenever they talked about the game while it was still in development.

Instead there is a massive imbalance where light armor and staffs are king and the class you choose and the active/passive skills it brings you makes a major impact from lvl 1 all the way to V12.

Don't get me wrong. I'm all for player skill > game numbers but player/character role within a group should be based on the gear chosen > class chosen.

This is VERY serious other games are starting to adopt this type of thinking. Just because your wearing cloth doesn't mean you shouldn't be able to tank.

Yeah, it kinda does.

Before, when it came to the trinity, you chose one or the other. So you either picked the tank class, the dps class, or the healer class.

The trend is that MMOs are moving away from the all out one or the other and offering a blend. Think of character creation in this game. Think of that face triangle type slider. You can go all out soft, angled, or heroic. Or you can move that slider anywhere in between the three within the triangle. So instead of it being soft, angled, and heroic, it's tank, healer, dps and you move the slider anywhere you want. To accomplish this moving of the metaphorical slider, you pick the gear/class combination you want.

When it comes to soloable content, it shouldn't matter. You should be able to solo it. It's a trade off with the same ultimate result. Killing the enemy before they kill you.

So if you go all out tank, you don't deal much damage but you mitigate a lot of damage. The end result is that you kill the mobs before they kill you.

If you go all out dps, you deal lots of damage but you don't mitigate much damage. However, again, you kill the enemy before they kill you.

If you go healer, you are mitigating but in a different way than a tank. Rather than soaking the damage, you are healing back a portion of the damage. So similar to the tank, you mitigate lots of damage but put out a little. Again, you kill the enemy before they kill you.

This is for solo content. For group content it's different. You should need all three. The tank, although able to soak damage, doesn't do much damage. An enemy designed for a group will be able to kill a tank before the tank can kill it. So you need the combined work of a tank to soak the damage and a healer to heal the damage that gets through in order for the tank to survive. However, enemies designed for a group are strong in the dps and damage mitigation department. So this is where the dps comes in. To kill the enemy in a timely fashion or at all (if the enemy's mitigation is through self healing) you need the dps.

This is how ZOS is achieving their "play as you want", by using few restrictions.

The only real issue with armor is peoples perception of them and the fact there is a current Magicka/Stamina issue.

Light Armor is not that amazing, Magicka builds are and Light Armor just makes them better.

Using the proper gear to fill the proper role has nothing to do with "play how you want". Sorry but no a pure healer should not be able to tank or dps. A tank should not be able to fill the roll of a pure healer or dps, etc., etc.

ZoS philosophy on 'play how you want' is the following...

One of the core philosophies of The Elder Scrolls Online is to allow you to play the way you want. You’ve probably heard us say it or experienced it for yourself: equip any weapon, wear any armor, choose from a myriad of skills, pick your role, make choices in quests, ignore certain quests and just explore, etc. The idea is that these choices tie you more to your character, and respect that you might want to play differently from one day to the next. Many times, I’ve heard people discuss how they like to solo, others like to “raid,” and another group likes to PvP, so we know gamers never fit into neat categories.

However, many people who have become attached to their character want to see how their character would perform in a variety of situations or game modes. This is part of the reason we don’t have PvP gear and PvE gear, and also the reason we embrace being able to pick and max out more than a handful of skills. We’ve tried to avoid the danger of compartmentalizing and labeling certain players by acknowledging that circumstances change for people day-to-day. On Monday you might feel like playing alone, and Tuesday you might feel like working with friends on a dungeon. Whatever your motivation, you should be able to go do the thing you want without a lot of barriers.

http://elderscrollsonline.com/en/news/post/2014/03/26/esos-veteran-content?ref=rss

The bold part is the part most relevant here. The question is "how do you choose your role?" and the answer is simple. You pick the right weapon, armor and skills. Note the underlined part of the quote above. The game allows you to mix and match any combination. This is what makes the choice between the trinity not so cut and dry but rather very much like that triangular facial slider in character creation. This does not mean you can pick the gear/skill combination to make yourself a pure dps and then group up with others and act as the tank in a group dungeon.

This is sort of the problem with a "slider" system in group content. People are too used to the predefined roles and even this game puts people into predefined roles. You use the group finder and you can select what you are (tank, dps, or healer). Sure it allows you to pick any combination of the three but people don't fully understand the trade off.

Take a group of jack-of-all. They picked gear/skill combinations to given them a little bit of everything but they didn't focus on any one thing. They think they can fill any role but they really can't. In such a situation, if one acted as a tank and another acted as a healer, the party will not survive. Since the person acting as a tank didn't focus on being a tank, and since the person acting as a healer didn't focus on being a healer, then the combined soaking + healing isn't enough to survive the enemies meant for a group.

So how would a group like that beat a group dungeon? By sharing the responsibility of each of the roles. So each takes a turn as tank until they are about to die then the next person takes over. They all put in a share of the healing and they all combine their dps efforts. If done right, by the time it comes back around to the first person to act as tank, they are back to full hp and ready to tank again.

Wifeaggro13 · June 2014

Shaun98ca2 wrote: »

I can tell you right now as a healer a Tank wearing Heavy Armor is MUCH easier to keep alive then one NOT wearing Heavy Armor. You can feel the difference as a healer in the different armors in the game. Light Armor people are just a pain in the ar$e to keep versus someone using Heavy Armor.

then they are not using the buffs simply put . can be 1200 over armor cap in one click. I have completed every single VR dungeon with a v3 Sorc tank and a V12 DK tank. one in heavy and one in light .
There is amassive difference between a guy that is a DPS and say hey i can tank and throws inner fire on the bar and proceeds to kill everyone a s opposed to some one who knows the mechanics. I am willing to take you through a whole VR clear with my DK and then my sorc. you will litteraly see no difference other then my sorc has 500 less hp because he is lower lvl.

Sakiri · June 2014

GothicPython wrote: »

SilverWF wrote: »

Again "Hey, I'm heavy user I have some 'nice' ideas about Light armor, and doesn't matter what I didn't know anything about Weapon, Guild and World skills, Armor sets, enchants, traits and potions" thread...

ruze84b14_ESO wrote: »

Not all medium armor builds are stealth builds, meaning one of your primary passives is completely wasted if you aren't stealthy.

too bad for them - they are didn't understand this game.

Based on my understanding of your very poorly worded post (attempted insult)...do you seriously deny that there is an imbalance between the light armor passives and the other two lines? How many times must it be re-iterated that Light armor dominates this game because of how much better the passives are in comparison to the other two lines?

Next time, please try adding something meaningful to the discussion or don't comment at all.

Only stealth users use medium dont you know? According to him the game is perfect we all just need to l2p.

MasterSpatula · June 2014

Without getting too far into the details of your proposal, I would say that I don't think Medium and Heavy armor should be "on par" with Light in terms of passives. Light armor should have the strongest passives because it provides the least mitigation, i.e. higher reward for higher risk.

Unfortunately, the different in mitigation isn't nearly big enough, which is part of what makes LA so much better than the other styles. MA needs to mitigate more damage, and HA needs to mitigate a lot more damage.

Personally, I would favor taking all criticals away from Light Armor and putting them all on Medium Armor, making MA the only source for spell, healing, and physical attack crits.

I also feel like Heavy Armor's bonus to healing received should be increased and expanded to include a bonus to healing given.

This would mean healers could choose HA for most powerful heals, MA for crits, and LA for deepest resource pool--or mix-and-match. HA would be the clear choice for tanking, and MA could work for damage dealers in melee or even for casters who are willing to sacrifice resource pool for criticals.

Wifeaggro13 · June 2014

AinGeal wrote: »

Shaun98ca2 wrote: »

AinGeal wrote: »

Shaun98ca2 wrote: »

I think people are missing the point of the armors themselves. The armors are only supposed to give slight bonuses. The thing about the game is player skill means more than what your wearing.

IF your a skilled player you SHOULD be able to tank fine in Light Armor considering you geared yourself to at least reach the soft cap.

CAN Heavy armor do it better YES, but Heavy armor SHOULDNT be the only means of tanking.

Spell Casters CAN wear Heavy Armor as it will increase their survivability but it will also at the same time decrease their casting efficiency.

This all lends well to the theme of the game with is Play the Way You Want.

There is NOTHING wrong with armor in the game. Its the balance between Magicka and Stamina that's the real issue.

But again with Magicka/Stamina there is a bigger picture we are still missing. LOT of people are on the forums claiming they are able to play their Melee classes quite well even in Veteran Rank.

LOL...wait, you are you serious...O.o

The role you play should absolutely be determined by the gear you use.

All out tank? Heavy armor with sword and board.
Tanky with a little more dps? Heavy armor with two hander or duel wield.
All out melee DPS? Medium armor and 2 hander or duel wield.
All out healer? Light armor and resto staff.
etc.

It's the class skills that should give slight bonuses. A person's class should be about the gear combination they choose to go with. The class you pick at the start is just a launching point. Or it was suppose to be according the devs whenever they talked about the game while it was still in development.

Instead there is a massive imbalance where light armor and staffs are king and the class you choose and the active/passive skills it brings you makes a major impact from lvl 1 all the way to V12.

Don't get me wrong. I'm all for player skill > game numbers but player/character role within a group should be based on the gear chosen > class chosen.

This is VERY serious other games are starting to adopt this type of thinking. Just because your wearing cloth doesn't mean you shouldn't be able to tank.

Yeah, it kinda does.

Before, when it came to the trinity, you chose one or the other. So you either picked the tank class, the dps class, or the healer class.

The trend is that MMOs are moving away from the all out one or the other and offering a blend. Think of character creation in this game. Think of that face triangle type slider. You can go all out soft, angled, or heroic. Or you can move that slider anywhere in between the three within the triangle. So instead of it being soft, angled, and heroic, it's tank, healer, dps and you move the slider anywhere you want. To accomplish this moving of the metaphorical slider, you pick the gear/class combination you want.

When it comes to soloable content, it shouldn't matter. You should be able to solo it. It's a trade off with the same ultimate result. Killing the enemy before they kill you.

So if you go all out tank, you don't deal much damage but you mitigate a lot of damage. The end result is that you kill the mobs before they kill you.

If you go all out dps, you deal lots of damage but you don't mitigate much damage. However, again, you kill the enemy before they kill you.

If you go healer, you are mitigating but in a different way than a tank. Rather than soaking the damage, you are healing back a portion of the damage. So similar to the tank, you mitigate lots of damage but put out a little. Again, you kill the enemy before they kill you.

This is for solo content. For group content it's different. You should need all three. The tank, although able to soak damage, doesn't do much damage. An enemy designed for a group will be able to kill a tank before the tank can kill it. So you need the combined work of a tank to soak the damage and a healer to heal the damage that gets through in order for the tank to survive. However, enemies designed for a group are strong in the dps and damage mitigation department. So this is where the dps comes in. To kill the enemy in a timely fashion or at all (if the enemy's mitigation is through self healing) you need the dps.

This is how ZOS is achieving their "play as you want", by using few restrictions.

The only real issue with armor is peoples perception of them and the fact there is a current Magicka/Stamina issue.

Light Armor is not that amazing, Magicka builds are and Light Armor just makes them better.

Using the proper gear to fill the proper role has nothing to do with "play how you want". Sorry but no a pure healer should not be able to tank or dps. A tank should not be able to fill the roll of a pure healer or dps, etc., etc.

ZoS philosophy on 'play how you want' is the following...

One of the core philosophies of The Elder Scrolls Online is to allow you to play the way you want. You’ve probably heard us say it or experienced it for yourself: equip any weapon, wear any armor, choose from a myriad of skills, pick your role, make choices in quests, ignore certain quests and just explore, etc. The idea is that these choices tie you more to your character, and respect that you might want to play differently from one day to the next. Many times, I’ve heard people discuss how they like to solo, others like to “raid,” and another group likes to PvP, so we know gamers never fit into neat categories.

However, many people who have become attached to their character want to see how their character would perform in a variety of situations or game modes. This is part of the reason we don’t have PvP gear and PvE gear, and also the reason we embrace being able to pick and max out more than a handful of skills. We’ve tried to avoid the danger of compartmentalizing and labeling certain players by acknowledging that circumstances change for people day-to-day. On Monday you might feel like playing alone, and Tuesday you might feel like working with friends on a dungeon. Whatever your motivation, you should be able to go do the thing you want without a lot of barriers.

http://elderscrollsonline.com/en/news/post/2014/03/26/esos-veteran-content?ref=rss

The bold part is the part most relevant here. The question is "how do you choose your role?" and the answer is simple. You pick the right weapon, armor and skills. Note the underlined part of the quote above. The game allows you to mix and match any combination. This is what makes the choice between the trinity not so cut and dry but rather very much like that triangular facial slider in character creation. This does not mean you can pick the gear/skill combination to make yourself a pure dps and then group up with others and act as the tank in a group dungeon.

This is sort of the problem with a "slider" system in group content. People are too used to the predefined roles and even this game puts people into predefined roles. You use the group finder and you can select what you are (tank, dps, or healer). Sure it allows you to pick any combination of the three but people don't fully understand the trade off.

Take a group of jack-of-all. They picked gear/skill combinations to given them a little bit of everything but they didn't focus on any one thing. They think they can fill any role but they really can't. In such a situation, if one acted as a tank and another acted as a healer, the party will not survive. Since the person acting as a tank didn't focus on being a tank, and since the person acting as a healer didn't focus on being a healer, then the combined soaking + healing isn't enough to survive the enemies meant for a group.

So how would a group like that beat a group dungeon? By sharing the responsibility of each of the roles. So each takes a turn as tank until they are about to die then the next person takes over. They all put in a share of the healing and they all combine their dps efforts. If done right, by the time it comes back around to the first person to act as tank, they are back to full hp and ready to tank again.

Right here i can tell that either you dont do VR dungeons or you simply have only DPS'd. the simple fact after doing all the content in TESO is there is literally one role as a tank as a healer and as a dps. It is DPS that heals , DPS that CC's and AOE DPS that has a taunt and Sword and shield. All the roles are DPS. Teso is not this flexible wonderland. its actually the opposite in trying to break the mold they broke the game. the truth is nothing was wrong with the trinity and having defined rolls . the only thing that was wrong with it was it was hard to level the defined rolls solo andvery hard to balance for PVP. was very evident in games like EQ 2.since 2004 we have seeing a down hill slide of watering down of mechanics and collapsing of the roles. The Trinity needed to be expanded upon and true CC and support roles left in .

AinGeal · June 2014

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

Right here i can tell that either you dont do VR dungeons or you simply have only DPS'd. the simple fact after doing all the content in TESO is there is literally one role as a tank as a healer and as a dps. It is DPS that heals , DPS that CC's and AOE DPS that has a taunt and Sword and shield. All the roles are DPS. Teso is not this flexible wonderland. its actually the opposite in trying to break the mold they broke the game. the truth is nothing was wrong with the trinity and having defined rolls . the only thing that was wrong with it was it was hard to level the defined rolls solo andvery hard to balance for PVP. was very evident in games like EQ 2.since 2004 we have seeing a down hill slide of watering down of mechanics and collapsing of the roles. The Trinity needed to be expanded upon and true CC and support roles left in .

Right here I can tell that you don't know the difference between something that states 'how it ought to be' vs a statement that states 'how it currently is'.

But kudos for pointing out that ESO failed in their objective.

Wifeaggro13 · June 2014

AinGeal wrote: »

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

Right here i can tell that either you dont do VR dungeons or you simply have only DPS'd. the simple fact after doing all the content in TESO is there is literally one role as a tank as a healer and as a dps. It is DPS that heals , DPS that CC's and AOE DPS that has a taunt and Sword and shield. All the roles are DPS. Teso is not this flexible wonderland. its actually the opposite in trying to break the mold they broke the game. the truth is nothing was wrong with the trinity and having defined rolls . the only thing that was wrong with it was it was hard to level the defined rolls solo andvery hard to balance for PVP. was very evident in games like EQ 2.since 2004 we have seeing a down hill slide of watering down of mechanics and collapsing of the roles. The Trinity needed to be expanded upon and true CC and support roles left in .

Right here I can tell that you don't know the difference between something that states 'how it ought to be' vs a statement that states 'how it currently is'.

But kudos for pointing out that ESO failed in their objective.

Sorry for the misunderstanding.enjoy your forum visit

Sakiri · June 2014

Shaun98ca2 wrote: »

I can tell you right now as a healer a Tank wearing Heavy Armor is MUCH easier to keep alive then one NOT wearing Heavy Armor. You can feel the difference as a healer in the different armors in the game. Light Armor people are just a pain in the ar$e to keep versus someone using Heavy Armor.

As a healer it doesn't matter what theyre wearing when they stand in the bad.

Sakiri · June 2014

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

AinGeal wrote: »

Shaun98ca2 wrote: »

AinGeal wrote: »

Shaun98ca2 wrote: »

I think people are missing the point of the armors themselves. The armors are only supposed to give slight bonuses. The thing about the game is player skill means more than what your wearing.

IF your a skilled player you SHOULD be able to tank fine in Light Armor considering you geared yourself to at least reach the soft cap.

CAN Heavy armor do it better YES, but Heavy armor SHOULDNT be the only means of tanking.

Spell Casters CAN wear Heavy Armor as it will increase their survivability but it will also at the same time decrease their casting efficiency.

This all lends well to the theme of the game with is Play the Way You Want.

There is NOTHING wrong with armor in the game. Its the balance between Magicka and Stamina that's the real issue.

But again with Magicka/Stamina there is a bigger picture we are still missing. LOT of people are on the forums claiming they are able to play their Melee classes quite well even in Veteran Rank.

LOL...wait, you are you serious...O.o

The role you play should absolutely be determined by the gear you use.

All out tank? Heavy armor with sword and board.
Tanky with a little more dps? Heavy armor with two hander or duel wield.
All out melee DPS? Medium armor and 2 hander or duel wield.
All out healer? Light armor and resto staff.
etc.

It's the class skills that should give slight bonuses. A person's class should be about the gear combination they choose to go with. The class you pick at the start is just a launching point. Or it was suppose to be according the devs whenever they talked about the game while it was still in development.

Instead there is a massive imbalance where light armor and staffs are king and the class you choose and the active/passive skills it brings you makes a major impact from lvl 1 all the way to V12.

Don't get me wrong. I'm all for player skill > game numbers but player/character role within a group should be based on the gear chosen > class chosen.

This is VERY serious other games are starting to adopt this type of thinking. Just because your wearing cloth doesn't mean you shouldn't be able to tank.

Yeah, it kinda does.

Before, when it came to the trinity, you chose one or the other. So you either picked the tank class, the dps class, or the healer class.

The trend is that MMOs are moving away from the all out one or the other and offering a blend. Think of character creation in this game. Think of that face triangle type slider. You can go all out soft, angled, or heroic. Or you can move that slider anywhere in between the three within the triangle. So instead of it being soft, angled, and heroic, it's tank, healer, dps and you move the slider anywhere you want. To accomplish this moving of the metaphorical slider, you pick the gear/class combination you want.

When it comes to soloable content, it shouldn't matter. You should be able to solo it. It's a trade off with the same ultimate result. Killing the enemy before they kill you.

So if you go all out tank, you don't deal much damage but you mitigate a lot of damage. The end result is that you kill the mobs before they kill you.

If you go all out dps, you deal lots of damage but you don't mitigate much damage. However, again, you kill the enemy before they kill you.

If you go healer, you are mitigating but in a different way than a tank. Rather than soaking the damage, you are healing back a portion of the damage. So similar to the tank, you mitigate lots of damage but put out a little. Again, you kill the enemy before they kill you.

This is for solo content. For group content it's different. You should need all three. The tank, although able to soak damage, doesn't do much damage. An enemy designed for a group will be able to kill a tank before the tank can kill it. So you need the combined work of a tank to soak the damage and a healer to heal the damage that gets through in order for the tank to survive. However, enemies designed for a group are strong in the dps and damage mitigation department. So this is where the dps comes in. To kill the enemy in a timely fashion or at all (if the enemy's mitigation is through self healing) you need the dps.

This is how ZOS is achieving their "play as you want", by using few restrictions.

The only real issue with armor is peoples perception of them and the fact there is a current Magicka/Stamina issue.

Light Armor is not that amazing, Magicka builds are and Light Armor just makes them better.

Using the proper gear to fill the proper role has nothing to do with "play how you want". Sorry but no a pure healer should not be able to tank or dps. A tank should not be able to fill the roll of a pure healer or dps, etc., etc.

ZoS philosophy on 'play how you want' is the following...

One of the core philosophies of The Elder Scrolls Online is to allow you to play the way you want. You’ve probably heard us say it or experienced it for yourself: equip any weapon, wear any armor, choose from a myriad of skills, pick your role, make choices in quests, ignore certain quests and just explore, etc. The idea is that these choices tie you more to your character, and respect that you might want to play differently from one day to the next. Many times, I’ve heard people discuss how they like to solo, others like to “raid,” and another group likes to PvP, so we know gamers never fit into neat categories.

However, many people who have become attached to their character want to see how their character would perform in a variety of situations or game modes. This is part of the reason we don’t have PvP gear and PvE gear, and also the reason we embrace being able to pick and max out more than a handful of skills. We’ve tried to avoid the danger of compartmentalizing and labeling certain players by acknowledging that circumstances change for people day-to-day. On Monday you might feel like playing alone, and Tuesday you might feel like working with friends on a dungeon. Whatever your motivation, you should be able to go do the thing you want without a lot of barriers.

http://elderscrollsonline.com/en/news/post/2014/03/26/esos-veteran-content?ref=rss

The bold part is the part most relevant here. The question is "how do you choose your role?" and the answer is simple. You pick the right weapon, armor and skills. Note the underlined part of the quote above. The game allows you to mix and match any combination. This is what makes the choice between the trinity not so cut and dry but rather very much like that triangular facial slider in character creation. This does not mean you can pick the gear/skill combination to make yourself a pure dps and then group up with others and act as the tank in a group dungeon.

This is sort of the problem with a "slider" system in group content. People are too used to the predefined roles and even this game puts people into predefined roles. You use the group finder and you can select what you are (tank, dps, or healer). Sure it allows you to pick any combination of the three but people don't fully understand the trade off.

Take a group of jack-of-all. They picked gear/skill combinations to given them a little bit of everything but they didn't focus on any one thing. They think they can fill any role but they really can't. In such a situation, if one acted as a tank and another acted as a healer, the party will not survive. Since the person acting as a tank didn't focus on being a tank, and since the person acting as a healer didn't focus on being a healer, then the combined soaking + healing isn't enough to survive the enemies meant for a group.

So how would a group like that beat a group dungeon? By sharing the responsibility of each of the roles. So each takes a turn as tank until they are about to die then the next person takes over. They all put in a share of the healing and they all combine their dps efforts. If done right, by the time it comes back around to the first person to act as tank, they are back to full hp and ready to tank again.

Right here i can tell that either you dont do VR dungeons or you simply have only DPS'd. the simple fact after doing all the content in TESO is there is literally one role as a tank as a healer and as a dps. It is DPS that heals , DPS that CC's and AOE DPS that has a taunt and Sword and shield. All the roles are DPS. Teso is not this flexible wonderland. its actually the opposite in trying to break the mold they broke the game. the truth is nothing was wrong with the trinity and having defined rolls . the only thing that was wrong with it was it was hard to level the defined rolls solo andvery hard to balance for PVP. was very evident in games like EQ 2.since 2004 we have seeing a down hill slide of watering down of mechanics and collapsing of the roles. The Trinity needed to be expanded upon and true CC and support roles left in .

Lemme guess, you relied on being a bard/chanter for groups?

Oh, as for "watering down", wow still has a trinity. You arent getting dps to tank content that matters, ie: you dont outgear it.

My dirge on EQ2? I tanked Drunder instances and raid bosses after the tank screwed up and died.

Nothing like recasting hate song on myself and spinning that thing around befote the tank finished saying "crap get me up".

Lyall84 · June 2014

Sakiri wrote: »

Lyall84 wrote: »

GothicPython wrote: »

Lyall84 wrote: »

I agree with the imbalance, here are my suggestions.

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/111254/armor-passives-suggested-fixes#latest

I didn't think too much had to be done with the heavy armor, but I also agree that the soft and hard cap limits for armor need to be elevated.

Haha our posts are rather similar. I do disagree though that not much needs to be done to heavy armor. Currently heavy armor is the worst line with some of the worst passives. I personally think that heavy armor actually needs the most help right now, but that's just me.

Heavy armor is designed to be the tank armor, not the melee dps armor. Every time I have tossed on heavy armor and headed into a dungeon, it seems like healers have no problems keeping me up.

I do think three things need to be done in regards to heavy armor though. First, raise the soft and hard cap for armor, to like 75% damage reduction instead of 50%. Second, increase the amount of armor the passive gives to 6% per piece, and leave the spell resistance at 3% per piece. Third, double the Juggernaut passive amount.

After reading your post, seeing how Health enchants give more value than
stamina/magicka enchants of the same value. I agree with doubling the health regeneration value of heavy armor. Adjusting the healing received on the other hand, I think if you tweak that too much, you will turn tank classes into PvP monsters. DKs for example have a 30% self heal which is already insane, adjust the amount of healing received too much, and they can keep themselves up forever without external healing.

Supposed to be the tank armor but tank damage is pathetic and people dont want(nor should they need yo) carry 2 sets.

On top of it, if you have enough dps your tank can roll light, sword/board, and softcapped armor and up their dps by a load.

Theres no benefit to heavy, even for tanking. Armor reducing damage coming in, the amount is pathetic and VR mobs hit me just as hard regardless of what Im wearing due to softcaps being easy to get.

Understood and agreed.

Wifeaggro13 · June 2014

Sakiri wrote: »

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

AinGeal wrote: »

Shaun98ca2 wrote: »

AinGeal wrote: »

Shaun98ca2 wrote: »

I think people are missing the point of the armors themselves. The armors are only supposed to give slight bonuses. The thing about the game is player skill means more than what your wearing.

IF your a skilled player you SHOULD be able to tank fine in Light Armor considering you geared yourself to at least reach the soft cap.

CAN Heavy armor do it better YES, but Heavy armor SHOULDNT be the only means of tanking.

Spell Casters CAN wear Heavy Armor as it will increase their survivability but it will also at the same time decrease their casting efficiency.

This all lends well to the theme of the game with is Play the Way You Want.

There is NOTHING wrong with armor in the game. Its the balance between Magicka and Stamina that's the real issue.

But again with Magicka/Stamina there is a bigger picture we are still missing. LOT of people are on the forums claiming they are able to play their Melee classes quite well even in Veteran Rank.

LOL...wait, you are you serious...O.o

The role you play should absolutely be determined by the gear you use.

All out tank? Heavy armor with sword and board.
Tanky with a little more dps? Heavy armor with two hander or duel wield.
All out melee DPS? Medium armor and 2 hander or duel wield.
All out healer? Light armor and resto staff.
etc.

It's the class skills that should give slight bonuses. A person's class should be about the gear combination they choose to go with. The class you pick at the start is just a launching point. Or it was suppose to be according the devs whenever they talked about the game while it was still in development.

Instead there is a massive imbalance where light armor and staffs are king and the class you choose and the active/passive skills it brings you makes a major impact from lvl 1 all the way to V12.

Don't get me wrong. I'm all for player skill > game numbers but player/character role within a group should be based on the gear chosen > class chosen.

This is VERY serious other games are starting to adopt this type of thinking. Just because your wearing cloth doesn't mean you shouldn't be able to tank.

Yeah, it kinda does.

Before, when it came to the trinity, you chose one or the other. So you either picked the tank class, the dps class, or the healer class.

The trend is that MMOs are moving away from the all out one or the other and offering a blend. Think of character creation in this game. Think of that face triangle type slider. You can go all out soft, angled, or heroic. Or you can move that slider anywhere in between the three within the triangle. So instead of it being soft, angled, and heroic, it's tank, healer, dps and you move the slider anywhere you want. To accomplish this moving of the metaphorical slider, you pick the gear/class combination you want.

When it comes to soloable content, it shouldn't matter. You should be able to solo it. It's a trade off with the same ultimate result. Killing the enemy before they kill you.

So if you go all out tank, you don't deal much damage but you mitigate a lot of damage. The end result is that you kill the mobs before they kill you.

If you go all out dps, you deal lots of damage but you don't mitigate much damage. However, again, you kill the enemy before they kill you.

If you go healer, you are mitigating but in a different way than a tank. Rather than soaking the damage, you are healing back a portion of the damage. So similar to the tank, you mitigate lots of damage but put out a little. Again, you kill the enemy before they kill you.

This is for solo content. For group content it's different. You should need all three. The tank, although able to soak damage, doesn't do much damage. An enemy designed for a group will be able to kill a tank before the tank can kill it. So you need the combined work of a tank to soak the damage and a healer to heal the damage that gets through in order for the tank to survive. However, enemies designed for a group are strong in the dps and damage mitigation department. So this is where the dps comes in. To kill the enemy in a timely fashion or at all (if the enemy's mitigation is through self healing) you need the dps.

This is how ZOS is achieving their "play as you want", by using few restrictions.

The only real issue with armor is peoples perception of them and the fact there is a current Magicka/Stamina issue.

Light Armor is not that amazing, Magicka builds are and Light Armor just makes them better.

Using the proper gear to fill the proper role has nothing to do with "play how you want". Sorry but no a pure healer should not be able to tank or dps. A tank should not be able to fill the roll of a pure healer or dps, etc., etc.

ZoS philosophy on 'play how you want' is the following...

One of the core philosophies of The Elder Scrolls Online is to allow you to play the way you want. You’ve probably heard us say it or experienced it for yourself: equip any weapon, wear any armor, choose from a myriad of skills, pick your role, make choices in quests, ignore certain quests and just explore, etc. The idea is that these choices tie you more to your character, and respect that you might want to play differently from one day to the next. Many times, I’ve heard people discuss how they like to solo, others like to “raid,” and another group likes to PvP, so we know gamers never fit into neat categories.

However, many people who have become attached to their character want to see how their character would perform in a variety of situations or game modes. This is part of the reason we don’t have PvP gear and PvE gear, and also the reason we embrace being able to pick and max out more than a handful of skills. We’ve tried to avoid the danger of compartmentalizing and labeling certain players by acknowledging that circumstances change for people day-to-day. On Monday you might feel like playing alone, and Tuesday you might feel like working with friends on a dungeon. Whatever your motivation, you should be able to go do the thing you want without a lot of barriers.

http://elderscrollsonline.com/en/news/post/2014/03/26/esos-veteran-content?ref=rss

The bold part is the part most relevant here. The question is "how do you choose your role?" and the answer is simple. You pick the right weapon, armor and skills. Note the underlined part of the quote above. The game allows you to mix and match any combination. This is what makes the choice between the trinity not so cut and dry but rather very much like that triangular facial slider in character creation. This does not mean you can pick the gear/skill combination to make yourself a pure dps and then group up with others and act as the tank in a group dungeon.

This is sort of the problem with a "slider" system in group content. People are too used to the predefined roles and even this game puts people into predefined roles. You use the group finder and you can select what you are (tank, dps, or healer). Sure it allows you to pick any combination of the three but people don't fully understand the trade off.

Take a group of jack-of-all. They picked gear/skill combinations to given them a little bit of everything but they didn't focus on any one thing. They think they can fill any role but they really can't. In such a situation, if one acted as a tank and another acted as a healer, the party will not survive. Since the person acting as a tank didn't focus on being a tank, and since the person acting as a healer didn't focus on being a healer, then the combined soaking + healing isn't enough to survive the enemies meant for a group.

So how would a group like that beat a group dungeon? By sharing the responsibility of each of the roles. So each takes a turn as tank until they are about to die then the next person takes over. They all put in a share of the healing and they all combine their dps efforts. If done right, by the time it comes back around to the first person to act as tank, they are back to full hp and ready to tank again.

Right here i can tell that either you dont do VR dungeons or you simply have only DPS'd. the simple fact after doing all the content in TESO is there is literally one role as a tank as a healer and as a dps. It is DPS that heals , DPS that CC's and AOE DPS that has a taunt and Sword and shield. All the roles are DPS. Teso is not this flexible wonderland. its actually the opposite in trying to break the mold they broke the game. the truth is nothing was wrong with the trinity and having defined rolls . the only thing that was wrong with it was it was hard to level the defined rolls solo andvery hard to balance for PVP. was very evident in games like EQ 2.since 2004 we have seeing a down hill slide of watering down of mechanics and collapsing of the roles. The Trinity needed to be expanded upon and true CC and support roles left in .

Lemme guess, you relied on being a bard/chanter for groups?

Oh, as for "watering down", wow still has a trinity. You arent getting dps to tank content that matters, ie: you dont outgear it.

My dirge on EQ2? I tanked Drunder instances and raid bosses after the tank screwed up and died.

Nothing like recasting hate song on myself and spinning that thing around befote the tank finished saying "crap get me up".

Nope i was a shadow knight. and yes we are doing VR content VR dungeons with me sorc tanking so to speak in light though its not even really a tank its a DPS with a taunt because its pretty lame tactics By the way im only VR 3 clearing all the Vr dungeons.
We do get hung up here and there all of us under VR 6 . will dpened on how much sorc AOE we have lol

Sakiri · June 2014

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

Sakiri wrote: »

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

AinGeal wrote: »

Shaun98ca2 wrote: »

AinGeal wrote: »

Shaun98ca2 wrote: »

I think people are missing the point of the armors themselves. The armors are only supposed to give slight bonuses. The thing about the game is player skill means more than what your wearing.

IF your a skilled player you SHOULD be able to tank fine in Light Armor considering you geared yourself to at least reach the soft cap.

CAN Heavy armor do it better YES, but Heavy armor SHOULDNT be the only means of tanking.

Spell Casters CAN wear Heavy Armor as it will increase their survivability but it will also at the same time decrease their casting efficiency.

This all lends well to the theme of the game with is Play the Way You Want.

There is NOTHING wrong with armor in the game. Its the balance between Magicka and Stamina that's the real issue.

But again with Magicka/Stamina there is a bigger picture we are still missing. LOT of people are on the forums claiming they are able to play their Melee classes quite well even in Veteran Rank.

LOL...wait, you are you serious...O.o

The role you play should absolutely be determined by the gear you use.

All out tank? Heavy armor with sword and board.
Tanky with a little more dps? Heavy armor with two hander or duel wield.
All out melee DPS? Medium armor and 2 hander or duel wield.
All out healer? Light armor and resto staff.
etc.

It's the class skills that should give slight bonuses. A person's class should be about the gear combination they choose to go with. The class you pick at the start is just a launching point. Or it was suppose to be according the devs whenever they talked about the game while it was still in development.

Instead there is a massive imbalance where light armor and staffs are king and the class you choose and the active/passive skills it brings you makes a major impact from lvl 1 all the way to V12.

Don't get me wrong. I'm all for player skill > game numbers but player/character role within a group should be based on the gear chosen > class chosen.

This is VERY serious other games are starting to adopt this type of thinking. Just because your wearing cloth doesn't mean you shouldn't be able to tank.

Yeah, it kinda does.

Before, when it came to the trinity, you chose one or the other. So you either picked the tank class, the dps class, or the healer class.

The trend is that MMOs are moving away from the all out one or the other and offering a blend. Think of character creation in this game. Think of that face triangle type slider. You can go all out soft, angled, or heroic. Or you can move that slider anywhere in between the three within the triangle. So instead of it being soft, angled, and heroic, it's tank, healer, dps and you move the slider anywhere you want. To accomplish this moving of the metaphorical slider, you pick the gear/class combination you want.

When it comes to soloable content, it shouldn't matter. You should be able to solo it. It's a trade off with the same ultimate result. Killing the enemy before they kill you.

So if you go all out tank, you don't deal much damage but you mitigate a lot of damage. The end result is that you kill the mobs before they kill you.

If you go all out dps, you deal lots of damage but you don't mitigate much damage. However, again, you kill the enemy before they kill you.

If you go healer, you are mitigating but in a different way than a tank. Rather than soaking the damage, you are healing back a portion of the damage. So similar to the tank, you mitigate lots of damage but put out a little. Again, you kill the enemy before they kill you.

This is for solo content. For group content it's different. You should need all three. The tank, although able to soak damage, doesn't do much damage. An enemy designed for a group will be able to kill a tank before the tank can kill it. So you need the combined work of a tank to soak the damage and a healer to heal the damage that gets through in order for the tank to survive. However, enemies designed for a group are strong in the dps and damage mitigation department. So this is where the dps comes in. To kill the enemy in a timely fashion or at all (if the enemy's mitigation is through self healing) you need the dps.

This is how ZOS is achieving their "play as you want", by using few restrictions.

The only real issue with armor is peoples perception of them and the fact there is a current Magicka/Stamina issue.

Light Armor is not that amazing, Magicka builds are and Light Armor just makes them better.

Using the proper gear to fill the proper role has nothing to do with "play how you want". Sorry but no a pure healer should not be able to tank or dps. A tank should not be able to fill the roll of a pure healer or dps, etc., etc.

ZoS philosophy on 'play how you want' is the following...

One of the core philosophies of The Elder Scrolls Online is to allow you to play the way you want. You’ve probably heard us say it or experienced it for yourself: equip any weapon, wear any armor, choose from a myriad of skills, pick your role, make choices in quests, ignore certain quests and just explore, etc. The idea is that these choices tie you more to your character, and respect that you might want to play differently from one day to the next. Many times, I’ve heard people discuss how they like to solo, others like to “raid,” and another group likes to PvP, so we know gamers never fit into neat categories.

However, many people who have become attached to their character want to see how their character would perform in a variety of situations or game modes. This is part of the reason we don’t have PvP gear and PvE gear, and also the reason we embrace being able to pick and max out more than a handful of skills. We’ve tried to avoid the danger of compartmentalizing and labeling certain players by acknowledging that circumstances change for people day-to-day. On Monday you might feel like playing alone, and Tuesday you might feel like working with friends on a dungeon. Whatever your motivation, you should be able to go do the thing you want without a lot of barriers.

http://elderscrollsonline.com/en/news/post/2014/03/26/esos-veteran-content?ref=rss

The bold part is the part most relevant here. The question is "how do you choose your role?" and the answer is simple. You pick the right weapon, armor and skills. Note the underlined part of the quote above. The game allows you to mix and match any combination. This is what makes the choice between the trinity not so cut and dry but rather very much like that triangular facial slider in character creation. This does not mean you can pick the gear/skill combination to make yourself a pure dps and then group up with others and act as the tank in a group dungeon.

This is sort of the problem with a "slider" system in group content. People are too used to the predefined roles and even this game puts people into predefined roles. You use the group finder and you can select what you are (tank, dps, or healer). Sure it allows you to pick any combination of the three but people don't fully understand the trade off.

Take a group of jack-of-all. They picked gear/skill combinations to given them a little bit of everything but they didn't focus on any one thing. They think they can fill any role but they really can't. In such a situation, if one acted as a tank and another acted as a healer, the party will not survive. Since the person acting as a tank didn't focus on being a tank, and since the person acting as a healer didn't focus on being a healer, then the combined soaking + healing isn't enough to survive the enemies meant for a group.

So how would a group like that beat a group dungeon? By sharing the responsibility of each of the roles. So each takes a turn as tank until they are about to die then the next person takes over. They all put in a share of the healing and they all combine their dps efforts. If done right, by the time it comes back around to the first person to act as tank, they are back to full hp and ready to tank again.

Right here i can tell that either you dont do VR dungeons or you simply have only DPS'd. the simple fact after doing all the content in TESO is there is literally one role as a tank as a healer and as a dps. It is DPS that heals , DPS that CC's and AOE DPS that has a taunt and Sword and shield. All the roles are DPS. Teso is not this flexible wonderland. its actually the opposite in trying to break the mold they broke the game. the truth is nothing was wrong with the trinity and having defined rolls . the only thing that was wrong with it was it was hard to level the defined rolls solo andvery hard to balance for PVP. was very evident in games like EQ 2.since 2004 we have seeing a down hill slide of watering down of mechanics and collapsing of the roles. The Trinity needed to be expanded upon and true CC and support roles left in .

Lemme guess, you relied on being a bard/chanter for groups?

Oh, as for "watering down", wow still has a trinity. You arent getting dps to tank content that matters, ie: you dont outgear it.

My dirge on EQ2? I tanked Drunder instances and raid bosses after the tank screwed up and died.

Nothing like recasting hate song on myself and spinning that thing around befote the tank finished saying "crap get me up".

Nope i was a shadow knight. and yes we are doing VR content VR dungeons with me sorc tanking so to speak in light though its not even really a tank its a DPS with a taunt because its pretty lame tactics By the way im only VR 3 clearing all the Vr dungeons.
We do get hung up here and there all of us under VR 6 . will dpened on how much sorc AOE we have lol

Ah, I didnt like SK tanks. Bad pugs. Bleh.

Everyone likes to blame wow for watering down mmos but relavent for your gear content isnt being cleared without the trinity.

Here its a bit harder to outgear dungeons but I dont recall anuthing saying they were getting rid of the trinity. I know gw2 said that but unsure here.

NobleX35 · June 2014

Nox_Aeterna wrote: »

What people must also understand is that , while the passives are umbalanced , so are the active skills.

There is no question immovable is by far the best one of them all and may alone make worth using heavy armor on itself if they added a requirement of 5 pieces.

Now i dont support this idea , i would rather be able to use any skill on any set , but i wish more people making these threads also had ideas when it came to balancing the current active skills , because they are in no any better balanced than the passives.

You're very right, there is an imbalance in active skills as well. However part of that imbalance can be attributed to the imbalances in armor passives. Now to really achieve balance you can't just change everything all at once, because then you wont know if you really fixed the problem or just created a whole set of new issues.

Another issue with active skills at the moment is that all class skills use magicka at the moment and the number of magicka:stamina skills is more than 2:1 right now. This needs to change as well so that "true" stamina builds can actually exist. I personally think that half of every class's class skills should use stamina instead of magicka and the ratio should be 8:7 - magicka:stamina. At the same time all utility functions (block, sprint, etc.) need to pull resources from a completely sperate resource pool. This in my opinion is one of the only real ways to reach an actual balance between magicka vs stamina builds, however fixing armor passives would be a good start!

Shaun98ca2 · June 2014

GothicPython wrote: »

Nox_Aeterna wrote: »

What people must also understand is that , while the passives are umbalanced , so are the active skills.

There is no question immovable is by far the best one of them all and may alone make worth using heavy armor on itself if they added a requirement of 5 pieces.

Now i dont support this idea , i would rather be able to use any skill on any set , but i wish more people making these threads also had ideas when it came to balancing the current active skills , because they are in no any better balanced than the passives.

You're very right, there is an imbalance in active skills as well. However part of that imbalance can be attributed to the imbalances in armor passives. Now to really achieve balance you can't just change everything all at once, because then you wont know if you really fixed the problem or just created a whole set of new issues.

Another issue with active skills at the moment is that all class skills use magicka at the moment and the number of magicka:stamina skills is more than 2:1 right now. This needs to change as well so that "true" stamina builds can actually exist. I personally think that half of every class's class skills should use stamina instead of magicka and the ratio should be 8:7 - magicka:stamina. At the same time all utility functions (block, sprint, etc.) need to pull resources from a completely sperate resource pool. This in my opinion is one of the only real ways to reach an actual balance between magicka vs stamina builds, however fixing armor passives would be a good start!

I think part of the issue is Magicka and Stamina comparisons is like comparing Apples and Oranges. You cant expect the same things from the 2 based on their current design.

The fact that Block, Dodge, Stun, CC Break uses Stamina actually makes a LOT of sense due to the fact that Melees ARE in range to use Block and Stun. Dodge and CC Break just adds to the already increased survivability of the 2.

This lends well to Magicka builds as they really DONT need increases in that same survivability since they get their comparable survivability from their Magicka. Magicka gets ranged knockbacks and knockdowns along with self heals.

Now this isn't to say that Stamina and Magicka DOESNT get to use the other resource as well its just they really don't rely on it AS much.

Now with that said to me it LOOKS like Stamina get the better of the deal as MANY Magicka abilities are useful TO Stamina regardless of points in Stamina.

So looking at that is it really fair to expect Stamina to preform the same as Magicka as they have already different standing pros and cons?

bugulu · June 2014

Shaun98ca2 wrote: »

I think people are missing the point of the armors themselves. The armors are only supposed to give slight bonuses. The thing about the game is player skill means more than what your wearing.

IF your a skilled player you SHOULD be able to tank fine in Light Armor considering you geared yourself to at least reach the soft cap.

CAN Heavy armor do it better YES, but Heavy armor SHOULDNT be the only means of tanking.

Spell Casters CAN wear Heavy Armor as it will increase their survivability but it will also at the same time decrease their casting efficiency.

This all lends well to the theme of the game with is Play the Way You Want.

There is NOTHING wrong with armor in the game. Its the balance between Magicka and Stamina that's the real issue.

But again with Magicka/Stamina there is a bigger picture we are still missing. LOT of people are on the forums claiming they are able to play their Melee classes quite well even in Veteran Rank.

I replied to your post in the DPS thread earlier, you didn't reply back.
Face it, Medium and Heavy Armor is weaker than Light Armor.

There is a reason why majority of trial DPSers are using light armor and not medium and heavy armor. This is not only because magicka builds are stronger than stamina builds, light armor provides so much more for a damage dealer than medium and heavy are doing at the moment.