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Armor Passives and Imbalance
NobleX35
✭✭✭✭
*Prepare for huge wall of text*
I personally feel that one of the biggest reasons for so many of the imbalances in this game are largely in part due to the passives that armor lines give.
Here are the Passives from heavy - light and my proposed changes, assuming all perks have been purchased and the player is wearing a 7 of 7 set.
Heavy
1. Resolve: 21% armor and spell resistance rating - extra armor increase isn't all the appealing given how easy it is to reach softcap already, though the extra spell resistance is kinda nice. A change to make this more useful would require a much significant difference between heavy and light armor and much higher softcaps.
2. Constitution: 28% health recovery - health recovery is so minuscule to begin with that a 28% increase is not very appealing at all. Maybe increase that max percentage to 42% (1.5x magicka and stamina recovery) or change to 21% health recovery and 21% stamina recovery
3. Juggernaut: Increase power of melee attacks by 7% - a nice perk, but should be increased to say, 14%, to make it more useful and more appealing.
4. Bracing: decrease cost of blocking by 20% when wearing a 5 pieces set of heavy armor - just like juggernaut, it's a nice perk, but just not significant enough. To make this more useful maybe increase that cost decrease to between 30% and 50%
5. Rapid Mending: increase incoming healing by 7% - on a personal note I've never really been much of a fan of +incoming healing in any mmo I've played, but I would say to either increase that to 14% or what I'd prefer is just a flat decrease to incoming damage, say 14%?
Medium
1. Dexterity: 21% melee critical chance - this passive is fine the way it is in my opinion
2. Wind Walker: 28% stamina recovery - again this passive is fine the way it is in my opinion
3. Fortress: Decreases the radius in which enemies can detect you by 42%, and also decreases your cost for sneaking by 56% - This sounds like a nice perk, but it also sounds very situational to pvp or an assassin type class, which should maybe be moved to the Dark Brotherhood skill line whenever that skill line becomes available. Maybe instead change to 42% armor penetration (to match light armor spell penetration passive)? Either that or change to a 21% cost reduction for stamina based skills.
4. Agility: With at least 5 or more pieces of medium armor equipped, your attack speed increases by 10% - This perk sounds awesome, except I'm pretty sure attack speed and all "weighted" type traits are broken right now so useless until fixed.
5. Battlefield Mobility: For each piece of medium armor equipped, your sprinting speed increases by 14%, and your stamina cost for roll dodge drops by 14% - this passive seems mostly fine the way it is in my opinion, except maybe change the stamina cost for roll dodge to 21%?
Now all these changes I have proposed to both the Heavy armor and Medium armor lines are designed to potentially try to bring them up to the current state that Light armor is in right now. Now the changes I am about to propose to light armor are based off the idea of bringing light armor down to the current standing of Heavy and Medium armor lines and ignoring every change that I've stated above to those lines.
Light
1. Evocation: Reduces the magicka cost of spells by 21% - I personally feel that this perk is fine, only so long as Half of all class skills for all classes change to using stamina instead of magicka and that utility effects (roll, cc break, block) all get they're own resource bar. If that change is not implemented then move this perk to #4 and change the percentage to 15% so long as the player is wearing a 5 piece light set or more.
2. Recovery: Increases magicka regeneration by 28% This passive is fine the way it is in my opinion.
3. Spell Warding: Increase base spell resistance by 42% - It doesn't make any sense in my opinion that wearing light armor should provide this much spell resistance and is one of the primary reasons I feel makes this line so OP in it's current state. This number should be brought down to 14% so as to provide a greater incentive to wearing heavy armor if you want more survivability.
4. Prodigy: Increase spell critical chances by 10% when wearing at least 5 pieces of light armor - This passive seems fine to me, however if any changes that I stated in #1 go into effect - move this passive to #1 and change to 21% critical hit chance (remove or reduce critical hit chance rating from mage-light if implemented).
5. Concentration: ignore 42% of an enemy’s magic resistance - This passive is another reason why the light armor line is so OP in it's current state. This number should be reduced to 14%, or as stated above, an armor penetration perk needs to be added to either the medium or heavy armor line.
Again the proposed changes to the Heavy and Medium armor lines are designed to help bring them up to par to the current Light armor standing (assuming no changes are made to Light armor), whereas the changes to the Light armor line are designed to bring it to the current standing's of both Heavy and Medium armor (assuming that no changes are made to them).
Regardless if these changes are made or not, something must be done to either bring heavy and medium up to par with light armor, or bring light armor down to par with heavy and medium. I personally feel that this would fix a lot of the imbalances in the game across the board (including class imbalances).
Edited by NobleX35 on June 16, 2014 11:18PM I personally feel that one of the biggest reasons for so many of the imbalances in this game are largely in part due to the passives that armor lines give.
Here are the Passives from heavy - light and my proposed changes, assuming all perks have been purchased and the player is wearing a 7 of 7 set.
Heavy
1. Resolve: 21% armor and spell resistance rating - extra armor increase isn't all the appealing given how easy it is to reach softcap already, though the extra spell resistance is kinda nice. A change to make this more useful would require a much significant difference between heavy and light armor and much higher softcaps.
2. Constitution: 28% health recovery - health recovery is so minuscule to begin with that a 28% increase is not very appealing at all. Maybe increase that max percentage to 42% (1.5x magicka and stamina recovery) or change to 21% health recovery and 21% stamina recovery
3. Juggernaut: Increase power of melee attacks by 7% - a nice perk, but should be increased to say, 14%, to make it more useful and more appealing.
4. Bracing: decrease cost of blocking by 20% when wearing a 5 pieces set of heavy armor - just like juggernaut, it's a nice perk, but just not significant enough. To make this more useful maybe increase that cost decrease to between 30% and 50%
5. Rapid Mending: increase incoming healing by 7% - on a personal note I've never really been much of a fan of +incoming healing in any mmo I've played, but I would say to either increase that to 14% or what I'd prefer is just a flat decrease to incoming damage, say 14%?
Medium
1. Dexterity: 21% melee critical chance - this passive is fine the way it is in my opinion
2. Wind Walker: 28% stamina recovery - again this passive is fine the way it is in my opinion
3. Fortress: Decreases the radius in which enemies can detect you by 42%, and also decreases your cost for sneaking by 56% - This sounds like a nice perk, but it also sounds very situational to pvp or an assassin type class, which should maybe be moved to the Dark Brotherhood skill line whenever that skill line becomes available. Maybe instead change to 42% armor penetration (to match light armor spell penetration passive)? Either that or change to a 21% cost reduction for stamina based skills.
4. Agility: With at least 5 or more pieces of medium armor equipped, your attack speed increases by 10% - This perk sounds awesome, except I'm pretty sure attack speed and all "weighted" type traits are broken right now so useless until fixed.
5. Battlefield Mobility: For each piece of medium armor equipped, your sprinting speed increases by 14%, and your stamina cost for roll dodge drops by 14% - this passive seems mostly fine the way it is in my opinion, except maybe change the stamina cost for roll dodge to 21%?
Now all these changes I have proposed to both the Heavy armor and Medium armor lines are designed to potentially try to bring them up to the current state that Light armor is in right now. Now the changes I am about to propose to light armor are based off the idea of bringing light armor down to the current standing of Heavy and Medium armor lines and ignoring every change that I've stated above to those lines.
Light
1. Evocation: Reduces the magicka cost of spells by 21% - I personally feel that this perk is fine, only so long as Half of all class skills for all classes change to using stamina instead of magicka and that utility effects (roll, cc break, block) all get they're own resource bar. If that change is not implemented then move this perk to #4 and change the percentage to 15% so long as the player is wearing a 5 piece light set or more.
2. Recovery: Increases magicka regeneration by 28% This passive is fine the way it is in my opinion.
3. Spell Warding: Increase base spell resistance by 42% - It doesn't make any sense in my opinion that wearing light armor should provide this much spell resistance and is one of the primary reasons I feel makes this line so OP in it's current state. This number should be brought down to 14% so as to provide a greater incentive to wearing heavy armor if you want more survivability.
4. Prodigy: Increase spell critical chances by 10% when wearing at least 5 pieces of light armor - This passive seems fine to me, however if any changes that I stated in #1 go into effect - move this passive to #1 and change to 21% critical hit chance (remove or reduce critical hit chance rating from mage-light if implemented).
5. Concentration: ignore 42% of an enemy’s magic resistance - This passive is another reason why the light armor line is so OP in it's current state. This number should be reduced to 14%, or as stated above, an armor penetration perk needs to be added to either the medium or heavy armor line.
Again the proposed changes to the Heavy and Medium armor lines are designed to help bring them up to par to the current Light armor standing (assuming no changes are made to Light armor), whereas the changes to the Light armor line are designed to bring it to the current standing's of both Heavy and Medium armor (assuming that no changes are made to them).
Regardless if these changes are made or not, something must be done to either bring heavy and medium up to par with light armor, or bring light armor down to par with heavy and medium. I personally feel that this would fix a lot of the imbalances in the game across the board (including class imbalances).
"Only the dead have seen the end of war."
17
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Shaun98ca2✭✭✭✭✭Do you know the difference between Soft cap and Hard cap?
Its 20%
Heavy armor can reach to hard cap that's 50% damage reduction.
Just because soft cap is reached means nothing the real numbers are when you get closer to hard cap.4 -
NobleX35✭✭✭✭The degree of diminishing returns attempting to go above the softcaps to reach the hardcaps is too great and you'll end up sacrificing too much to get there. Thus the reason why light armor is so much better than heavy at the moment, because you can easily reach soft-caps without having to sacrifice hardly anything."Only the dead have seen the end of war."2
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Ser Lobo✭✭✭✭✭
✭I actually like a lot of the suggestions to buff medium and heavy to be on par with light. One particular one I like is this:3. Fortress: Decreases the radius in which enemies can detect you by 42%, and also decreases your cost for sneaking by 56% - This sounds like a nice perk, but it also sounds very situational to pvp or an assassin type class, which should maybe be moved to the Dark Brotherhood skill line whenever that skill line becomes available. Maybe instead change to 42% armor penetration (to match light armor spell penetration passive)? Either that or change to a 21% cost reduction for stamina based skills.
This is an important thing to note, because, while it's a great passive, it is VERY situational. Not all medium armor builds are stealth builds, meaning one of your primary passives is completely wasted if you aren't stealthy.
To compare, this would be like giving light armor a trait that boosts healing done to others. Sounds great, but in the end, if you aren't a healer and your wearing light armor, you've essentially gimped yourself one passive.
Reworking the ability to providing more dodge rating, in my opinion, would be better, but that's probably because I have a loose understanding of how the dodge rating works in this game. Medium armor should be more about avoiding damage than it is about absorbing damage.4. Agility: With at least 5 or more pieces of medium armor equipped, your attack speed increases by 10% - This perk sounds awesome, except I'm pretty sure attack speed and all "weighted" type traits are broken right now so useless until fixed.
I've seen conflicting reports on this, and one saying it works, just now how players think. Since it apparently reduces the time players have between attacks, instead of the speed of attacking itself, it seems to not provide an effect, but overall DPS is affected. I've always felt that letting players feel like they are being buffed is more important, and the weapon animations should be quicker to reflect.5. Battlefield Mobility: For each piece of medium armor equipped, your sprinting speed increases by 14%, and your stamina cost for roll dodge drops by 14% - this passive seems mostly fine the way it is in my opinion, except maybe change the stamina cost for roll dodge to 21%?
As with many of the heavy and medium bonuses, the pure numerical amount seems to be so much smaller than what light armor brings to the table. Boosts like this may help.Ruze Aulus. Mayor of Dhalmora. Archer, hunter, assassin. Nightblade.
Gral. Mountain Terror. Barbarian, marauder, murderer. Nightblade.
Na'Djin. Knight-Blade. Knight, vanguard, defender. Nightblade.
XBOX NARuze is a veteran of the PC Beta, lived through the year one drought, survived the buy-to-play conversion, and has stepped foot in the hells known as Craglorn. He mained a nightlbade when nightblades weren't good, and has never worn a robe. He converted from PC during the console betas, and hasn't regretted it a moment since.
He'd rank ESO:TU (in it's current state) a 4.8 out of 5, loving the game almost entirely.
This is an multiplayer game. I should be able to log in, join a dungeon, join a battleground, queue for a dolmen or world boss or delve, teleport in, play for 20 minutes, and not worry about getting kicked, failing to join, having perfect voice coms, or being unable to complete content because someone's lagging behind. Group Finder and matchmaking is broken. Take a note from Destiny and build a system that allows from drop-in/drop-out functionality and quick play.2 -
NobleX35✭✭✭✭ruze84b14_ESO wrote: »I actually like a lot of the suggestions to buff medium and heavy to be on par with light. One particular one I like is this:3. Fortress: Decreases the radius in which enemies can detect you by 42%, and also decreases your cost for sneaking by 56% - This sounds like a nice perk, but it also sounds very situational to pvp or an assassin type class, which should maybe be moved to the Dark Brotherhood skill line whenever that skill line becomes available. Maybe instead change to 42% armor penetration (to match light armor spell penetration passive)? Either that or change to a 21% cost reduction for stamina based skills.
This is an important thing to note, because, while it's a great passive, it is VERY situational. Not all medium armor builds are stealth builds, meaning one of your primary passives is completely wasted if you aren't stealthy.
To compare, this would be like giving light armor a trait that boosts healing done to others. Sounds great, but in the end, if you aren't a healer and your wearing light armor, you've essentially gimped yourself one passive.
Reworking the ability to providing more dodge rating, in my opinion, would be better, but that's probably because I have a loose understanding of how the dodge rating works in this game. Medium armor should be more about avoiding damage than it is about absorbing damage.4. Agility: With at least 5 or more pieces of medium armor equipped, your attack speed increases by 10% - This perk sounds awesome, except I'm pretty sure attack speed and all "weighted" type traits are broken right now so useless until fixed.
I've seen conflicting reports on this, and one saying it works, just now how players think. Since it apparently reduces the time players have between attacks, instead of the speed of attacking itself, it seems to not provide an effect, but overall DPS is affected. I've always felt that letting players feel like they are being buffed is more important, and the weapon animations should be quicker to reflect.5. Battlefield Mobility: For each piece of medium armor equipped, your sprinting speed increases by 14%, and your stamina cost for roll dodge drops by 14% - this passive seems mostly fine the way it is in my opinion, except maybe change the stamina cost for roll dodge to 21%?
As with many of the heavy and medium bonuses, the pure numerical amount seems to be so much smaller than what light armor brings to the table. Boosts like this may help.
I'm glad to see some good discussion occurring and you bring some interesting concepts that I hadn't heard of before (attack speed).
I'm not sure if you misunderstood one of my ideas though for Medium armor. My suggestion for the third ability was to increase armor penetration not armor resistance. Basically allowing medium armor players to have harder hitting attacks because they're skills will ignore more of the enemies armor - which in theory would go along with the general idea behind medium armor (light, fast attacks, that go for the weak spots). If you understood what I was saying, then ignore this comment altogether.
I do like you're idea of a passive dodge rating, but I decided not to go with that because the medium armor line already has an active skill that increases dodge chance (Evasion) by 15% for 17 seconds."Only the dead have seen the end of war."1 -
trucqulent✭✭✭imbalance is good. People don't actually want balance. Balance is just an excuse to justify aspirations of being op.GothicPython wrote: »The degree of diminishing returns attempting to go above the softcaps to reach the hardcaps is too great and you'll end up sacrificing too much to get there. Thus the reason why light armor is so much better than heavy at the moment, because you can easily reach soft-caps without having to sacrifice hardly anything.
Key: *to reach*.
A 20% gap is a lot... That's why theorycrafting exists in the first place.
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Asasinka✭✭✭If we're assumed to play the way we like the armor passives should overlap magicka-health-stamina, not so strictly focused at just one of them.
This way the armor type defines the way you're meant to play or you'll be ineffective.I'm fighting for a higher purpose4 -
NobleX35✭✭✭✭trucqulent wrote: »imbalance is good. People don't actually want balance. Balance is just an excuse to justify aspirations of being op.GothicPython wrote: »The degree of diminishing returns attempting to go above the softcaps to reach the hardcaps is too great and you'll end up sacrificing too much to get there. Thus the reason why light armor is so much better than heavy at the moment, because you can easily reach soft-caps without having to sacrifice hardly anything.
Key: *to reach*.
A 20% gap is a lot... That's why theorycrafting exists in the first place.
I'm scratching my head right now wondering if you're serious...people don't want balance and imbalance is good???
If no one wanted balance, why have there been a million + threads on the forums complaining about the light armor + destro staff combo. It's because it's imbalanced right now and makes the game less fun and people want other options to be a viable means of play (balance).
You're right 20% is a big gap...but you sacrifice *too* much trying to attain those numbers, that the 20% reward just isn't worth it when you look at all the other benefits you gain from light armor, and you're still more survivable because of them. The imbalances between armor lines right now is plain and clear.
[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Flaming]Edited by ZOS_UlyssesW on June 17, 2014 4:44PM"Only the dead have seen the end of war."0 -
Lyall84✭✭✭✭I agree with the imbalance, here are my suggestions.
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/111254/armor-passives-suggested-fixes#latest
I didn't think too much had to be done with the heavy armor, but I also agree that the soft and hard cap limits for armor need to be elevated.0 -
NobleX35✭✭✭✭I agree with the imbalance, here are my suggestions.
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/111254/armor-passives-suggested-fixes#latest
I didn't think too much had to be done with the heavy armor, but I also agree that the soft and hard cap limits for armor need to be elevated.
Haha our posts are rather similar. I do disagree though that not much needs to be done to heavy armor. Currently heavy armor is the worst line with some of the worst passives. I personally think that heavy armor actually needs the most help right now, but that's just me."Only the dead have seen the end of war."2 -
zhevon✭✭✭✭
Is this true? If true ZoS should be ashamed of themselves!GothicPython wrote: »4. Agility: With at least 5 or more pieces of medium armor equipped, your attack speed increases by 10% - This perk sounds awesome, except I'm pretty sure attack speed and all "weighted" type traits are broken right now so useless until fixed.
ZOS fix your passives (and traits) so they work!
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Jopoder✭IMO with all of changes implemented light armor will still be OP.
Medium should also atleast have stamina cost reduction.
Dont know about heavy.
P.S. Wanted to create similar post today when i get back home
The difference is i wanted to get an increased softcap for armor and medium get more damage boosting perks.
Edited by Jopoder on June 17, 2014 2:29PM0 -
Lyall84✭✭✭✭GothicPython wrote: »I agree with the imbalance, here are my suggestions.
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/111254/armor-passives-suggested-fixes#latest
I didn't think too much had to be done with the heavy armor, but I also agree that the soft and hard cap limits for armor need to be elevated.
Haha our posts are rather similar. I do disagree though that not much needs to be done to heavy armor. Currently heavy armor is the worst line with some of the worst passives. I personally think that heavy armor actually needs the most help right now, but that's just me.
Heavy armor is designed to be the tank armor, not the melee dps armor. Every time I have tossed on heavy armor and headed into a dungeon, it seems like healers have no problems keeping me up.
I do think three things need to be done in regards to heavy armor though. First, raise the soft and hard cap for armor, to like 75% damage reduction instead of 50%. Second, increase the amount of armor the passive gives to 6% per piece, and leave the spell resistance at 3% per piece. Third, double the Juggernaut passive amount.
After reading your post, seeing how Health enchants give more value than
stamina/magicka enchants of the same value. I agree with doubling the health regeneration value of heavy armor. Adjusting the healing received on the other hand, I think if you tweak that too much, you will turn tank classes into PvP monsters. DKs for example have a 30% self heal which is already insane, adjust the amount of healing received too much, and they can keep themselves up forever without external healing.0 -
Ser Lobo✭✭✭✭✭
✭Yet if you limit heavy armor from only providing bonus healing from outside sources for it's passive (instead of as an extra to another passive), it gimps players who are running solo or without healers. Make it like Strife's extra morph (which allows for 10% boost while slotted for outside heals).
I agree that SELF heals shouldn't be boosted, though. This would make those classes with superior self healing REALLY overpowered in that design.Ruze Aulus. Mayor of Dhalmora. Archer, hunter, assassin. Nightblade.
Gral. Mountain Terror. Barbarian, marauder, murderer. Nightblade.
Na'Djin. Knight-Blade. Knight, vanguard, defender. Nightblade.
XBOX NARuze is a veteran of the PC Beta, lived through the year one drought, survived the buy-to-play conversion, and has stepped foot in the hells known as Craglorn. He mained a nightlbade when nightblades weren't good, and has never worn a robe. He converted from PC during the console betas, and hasn't regretted it a moment since.
He'd rank ESO:TU (in it's current state) a 4.8 out of 5, loving the game almost entirely.
This is an multiplayer game. I should be able to log in, join a dungeon, join a battleground, queue for a dolmen or world boss or delve, teleport in, play for 20 minutes, and not worry about getting kicked, failing to join, having perfect voice coms, or being unable to complete content because someone's lagging behind. Group Finder and matchmaking is broken. Take a note from Destiny and build a system that allows from drop-in/drop-out functionality and quick play.0 -
NobleX35✭✭✭✭GothicPython wrote: »I agree with the imbalance, here are my suggestions.
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/111254/armor-passives-suggested-fixes#latest
I didn't think too much had to be done with the heavy armor, but I also agree that the soft and hard cap limits for armor need to be elevated.
Haha our posts are rather similar. I do disagree though that not much needs to be done to heavy armor. Currently heavy armor is the worst line with some of the worst passives. I personally think that heavy armor actually needs the most help right now, but that's just me.
Heavy armor is designed to be the tank armor, not the melee dps armor. Every time I have tossed on heavy armor and headed into a dungeon, it seems like healers have no problems keeping me up.
I do think three things need to be done in regards to heavy armor though. First, raise the soft and hard cap for armor, to like 75% damage reduction instead of 50%. Second, increase the amount of armor the passive gives to 6% per piece, and leave the spell resistance at 3% per piece. Third, double the Juggernaut passive amount.
After reading your post, seeing how Health enchants give more value than
stamina/magicka enchants of the same value. I agree with doubling the health regeneration value of heavy armor. Adjusting the healing received on the other hand, I think if you tweak that too much, you will turn tank classes into PvP monsters. DKs for example have a 30% self heal which is already insane, adjust the amount of healing received too much, and they can keep themselves up forever without external healing.
I wasn't really attempting to make heavy armor a melee dps line (except for doubling Juggernaut - which we both agree on). Sure you can wear heavy armor and still be an effective tank and stay afloat, but honestly you're really only hurting yourself because you can the same thing with light, but be much more effective at it due to the passives that light armor gives. I can also see your point on incoming healing, but as I've stated I've never really been much of a fan for that in general in any mmo I've played, so I would much rather see something else takes its place in stead, but that's just me
A decent overhaul to armor ratings in general could make the heavy armor line more useful. Raising softcaps and increasing armor ratings even further on heavy vs light might make enough of a difference to really make the line viable.
Personally, I think if they were to raise the softcaps and change armor ratings in general for gear to make it where a person who was really gearing their build around increasing their armor, that they should be able to reach base armor levels for medium and the same for medium to heavy. These differences should be about a 10-12% difference in mitigation also, so a person with full heavy should have roughly 20-24% more mitigation than someone in light armor.
Edited by NobleX35 on June 17, 2014 7:22PM"Only the dead have seen the end of war."0 -
Lyall84✭✭✭✭Almost agree with you on the differences, I think the difference of mitigation between heavy and medium should be 25% and another 25% between medium and light. 10 to 12% between types seems too small to me.0
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NobleX35✭✭✭✭Almost agree with you on the differences, I think the difference of mitigation between heavy and medium should be 25% and another 25% between medium and light. 10 to 12% between types seems too small to me.
I respect your input, but don't you think a 50% difference between heavy and light is too significant? We'd have the same situation we do now only with heavy armor. Over the course of a fight a 10-20% difference between heavy, medium, and light will make a huge and noticeable difference on its own even if it sounds small.Edited by NobleX35 on June 18, 2014 1:18PM"Only the dead have seen the end of war."0 -
dragnier✭✭✭Here are some posts I made about the actual mitigation % for different combinations of armor, blocking, and spell resists at max level.
Armor and Spell Resist Mitigation %
Blocking mitigation % for various armor amounts/types
Considering that the armor difference between light and heavy without a shield and including passives is 17%, increasing that to be more like 15% between light and medium and another 15% between medium and heavy would probably suffice.
Spell Resist, on the other hand, is another matter all together because everyone has some even completely naked (base 1320 at v12). The armors just increase your natural resistance. Heavy is 3% per piece while Light is 8% per piece leaving Medium in the dust in both cases because it doesn't add any.
Perhaps an inverse % for each? Light/Medium/Heavy armor mitigation of 15%/30%/45% for physical but 45%/30%/15% for spell respectively?
Or put anther way:
Heavy mitigating 45% physical and 15% spell
Medium mitigating 30% physical and 30% spell
Light mitigating 15% physical and 45% spell
I also agree that light armor should not inherently provide spell penetration unless medium or heavy did as well. Truthfully, spell and armor penetration should either be traits or enchants and not passive bonuses from armor.Edited by dragnier on June 18, 2014 4:17PM3 -
AelyinESO✭✭✭In my opinion, Casters don't use Medium or Heavy Armors since they need mobility (like dex builds, such as NB) to cast their power.so as to provide a greater incentive to wearing heavy armor if you want more survivability.
Heavy Armor, like name said, it's not for Mages, but "Play the way you want".
They don't need to get nerf (please stop with the nerfhammer), medium and heavy armor just need to be fixes. (ZoS already know about it, like stamina builds as well, since they fix it, will be good for many).NA PC Server - CP810 - Played Since Beta 2014, but left for 4 years, coz games got unbalancing, boring and too much expensive (still?)
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"Stop nerfing Sorcerers please"
"Stop putting most interesting items inside a lucky Crate costing money"1 -
NobleX35✭✭✭✭Here are some posts I made about the actual mitigation % for different combinations of armor, blocking, and spell resists at max level.
Armor and Spell Resist Mitigation %
Blocking mitigation % for various armor amounts/types
Considering that the armor difference between light and heavy without a shield and including passives is 17%, increasing that to be more like 15% between light and medium and another 15% between medium and heavy would probably suffice.
Spell Resist, on the other hand, is another matter all together because everyone has some even completely naked (base 1320 at v12). The armors just increase your natural resistance. Heavy is 3% per piece while Light is 8% per piece leaving Medium in the dust in both cases because it doesn't add any.
Perhaps an inverse % for each? Light/Medium/Heavy armor mitigation of 15%/30%/45% for physical but 45%/30%/15% for spell respectively?
Or put anther way:
Heavy mitigating 45% physical and 15% spell
Medium mitigating 30% physical and 30% spell
Light mitigating 15% physical and 45% spell
I also agree that light armor should not inherently provide spell penetration unless medium or heavy did as well. Truthfully, spell and armor penetration should either be traits or enchants and not passive bonuses from armor.
Interesting posts, ill have to look into them more later.
I personally don't know how I feel about inversing the mitigations for armor types. Considering that most everything dps related in this game is tied to spells and Magicka based skills I don't find it to be a good idea to give light armor the highest spell resistance buff ratings...it'll still be the same situation we have now. I personally think that heavy should have the highest ratings for both spell mitigation and physical mitigation so as to promote its "tank" role. Now what I propose is a slight change to what you've stated:
Heavy gets 45% physical mitigation and 45% spell mitigation
Medium gets 30% physical mitigation and 15% spell mitigation
Light gets 15% physical mitigation and 30% spell mitigation.
I still don't feel that any of the armor lines should out-match heavy in any sort of resistance or mitigation ratings given the fact that it's supposed to be the intended line for "tanking" at least based off there current model that's what it seems to be going for.In my opinion, Casters don't use Medium or Heavy Armors since they need mobility (like dex builds, such as NB) to cast their power.so as to provide a greater incentive to wearing heavy armor if you want more survivability.
Heavy Armor, like name said, it's not for Mages, but "Play the way you want".
They don't need to get nerf (please stop with the nerfhammer), medium and heavy armor just need to be fixes. (ZoS already know about it, like stamina builds as well, since they fix it, will be good for many).
I don't really understand what your point is in the first part of your post...
If you read the whole post you'd see that the changes I proposed were to either bring heavy and medium armor up to light armors current standing (without making any changes to light) thus only buffing heavy and medium...or... bring light down to heavy and medium armors current standing (which is a nerf). I proposed one or the other, but something needs to change.Edited by NobleX35 on June 18, 2014 2:27PM"Only the dead have seen the end of war."1 -
dragnier✭✭✭GothicPython wrote: »Here are some posts I made about the actual mitigation % for different combinations of armor, blocking, and spell resists at max level.
Armor and Spell Resist Mitigation %
Blocking mitigation % for various armor amounts/types
Considering that the armor difference between light and heavy without a shield and including passives is 17%, increasing that to be more like 15% between light and medium and another 15% between medium and heavy would probably suffice.
Spell Resist, on the other hand, is another matter all together because everyone has some even completely naked (base 1320 at v12). The armors just increase your natural resistance. Heavy is 3% per piece while Light is 8% per piece leaving Medium in the dust in both cases because it doesn't add any.
Perhaps an inverse % for each? Light/Medium/Heavy armor mitigation of 15%/30%/45% for physical but 45%/30%/15% for spell respectively?
Or put anther way:
Heavy mitigating 45% physical and 15% spell
Medium mitigating 30% physical and 30% spell
Light mitigating 15% physical and 45% spell
I also agree that light armor should not inherently provide spell penetration unless medium or heavy did as well. Truthfully, spell and armor penetration should either be traits or enchants and not passive bonuses from armor.
Interesting posts, ill have to look into them more later.
I personally don't know how I feel about inversing the mitigations for armor types. Considering that most everything dps related in this game is tied to spells and Magicka based skills I don't find it to be a good idea to give light armor the highest spell resistance buff ratings...it'll still be the same situation we have now. I personally think that heavy should have the highest ratings for both spell mitigation and physical mitigation so as to promote its "tank" role. Now what I propose is a slight change to what you've stated:
Heavy gets 45% physical mitigation and 45% spell mitigation
Medium gets 30% physical mitigation and 15% spell mitigation
Light gets 15% physical mitigation and 30% spell mitigation.
I still don't feel that any of the armor lines should out-match heavy in any sort of resistance or mitigation ratings given the fact that it's supposed to be the intended line for "tanking" at least based off there current model that's what it seems to be going for.
The problem with doing that is that heavy will then become the armor of choice regardless of the other passives simply because it will mitigate everything.
There has to be some form of drawback attached if you do it that way.
Perhaps the old spell fizzle (miss) effect that used to be tied to heavier armor in older games?
Light = no fizzle chance, 15% physical mitigation, and 35% spell mitigation
Medium = 0.75% fizzle chance per piece, 30% physical mitigation, and 20% spell mitigation
Heavy = 1.5% fizzle chance per piece, 50% physical and spell mitigation.
Obviously some skills would have to be given exclusions to this, such as the Inner Fire taunt... but that could be done simply by tying them to weapon damage or crit.0 -
Paladin_echo1✭✭✭I significantly have a problem with armor. I think they need to increase the amount of tanking a tank can do. Its a shame I can block and take damage naked and still have the same chance to survive as a fully armored tank against a v12 mob. Light armor gets incredibly way too much credit being the fact people can just go around and sport it and tank a lot of crap.
They have made the tanks into glass tanks in this game. How do you have a glass tank? You don't and they end up dying unless they block the crap out of every mob and run from nearly every spell casted.
I say this because I like tanking, but hate what this is doing at the moment. I think tanks should get an increase in overall mitigation so people can tell who is in light armor, who is in heavy armor, and who is in medium armor. There needs to be a real difference when you see them against mobs.
I see why tanks get angry sometimes when they try to grind. Full armor getting peeled off by 3 skeevers at lvl V12 hitting you for over 20% hp a piece is one reason. Also the V10 Tiger mauling my character the other day to less than 50%hp in FULL HEAVY ARMOR. Then tanks definitely don't have the points to be putting into stamina to the point that they can handle those mobs.
I HAVE charged my stamina to the max as a tank to try to kill them, and that was extremely ineffective powerwise, and hpwise. You hit too low hp, and you lose tankability. Then you take away more stamina and you still can't kill the mobs and lose power, and the only thing you can do is block, CC, and a few stamina moves while you wait for the mob to ultimately cause you armor damage by death.0 -
dragnier✭✭✭Paladin_echo1 wrote: »I significantly have a problem with armor. I think they need to increase the amount of tanking a tank can do. Its a shame I can block and take damage naked and still have the same chance to survive as a fully armored tank against a v12 mob. Light armor gets incredibly way too much credit being the fact people can just go around and sport it and tank a lot of crap.
They have made the tanks into glass tanks in this game. How do you have a glass tank? You don't and they end up dying unless they block the crap out of every mob and run from nearly every spell casted.
I say this because I like tanking, but hate what this is doing at the moment. I think tanks should get an increase in overall mitigation so people can tell who is in light armor, who is in heavy armor, and who is in medium armor. There needs to be a real difference when you see them against mobs.
I see why tanks get angry sometimes when they try to grind. Full armor getting peeled off by 3 skeevers at lvl V12 hitting you for over 20% hp a piece is one reason. Also the V10 Tiger mauling my character the other day to less than 50%hp in FULL HEAVY ARMOR. Then tanks definitely don't have the points to be putting into stamina to the point that they can handle those mobs.
I HAVE charged my stamina to the max as a tank to try to kill them, and that was extremely ineffective powerwise, and hpwise. You hit too low hp, and you lose tankability. Then you take away more stamina and you still can't kill the mobs and lose power, and the only thing you can do is block, CC, and a few stamina moves while you wait for the mob to ultimately cause you armor damage by death.
I've come to the conclusion that for a stamina based tank, it as actually "better" to use medium armor with one hand and shield because of the synergy between tanking and the medium armor buffs.
Dexterity = more threat from crits
Wind Walker = faster stam regen for more blocking
Improved Sneak = initial big hit from stealth to start fight with higher threat without using a taunt
Agility = more swings which create more threat
Athletics = more mobility for a cheaper cost
Evasion and morphs = PURE miss chance, not % mitigation. Each time an enemy misses due to this skill = 100% mitigation. Combine this skill with the Hist Bark set which also grants dodge chance while blocking and roughly 35% - 42% of all incoming attacks should miss.
NB can even get a class skill that grants more on top of that using magicka instead of stam so it draws from both resource pools... depending on the morph that's anywhere between another 15% and 30%! albeit short term... 2 sec of 30% miss chance on activation and then another 24sec of 15% miss chance.
Provided you keep up both of these relatively expensive skills and block, that totals 72% miss chance for 2 sec and 58% miss chance for 24 sec... on top of the mitigation you can attain for when you do get hit.
Great for those oh crap moments or just to alternate the resources you are using.3 -
NobleX35✭✭✭✭GothicPython wrote: »Here are some posts I made about the actual mitigation % for different combinations of armor, blocking, and spell resists at max level.
Armor and Spell Resist Mitigation %
Blocking mitigation % for various armor amounts/types
Considering that the armor difference between light and heavy without a shield and including passives is 17%, increasing that to be more like 15% between light and medium and another 15% between medium and heavy would probably suffice.
Spell Resist, on the other hand, is another matter all together because everyone has some even completely naked (base 1320 at v12). The armors just increase your natural resistance. Heavy is 3% per piece while Light is 8% per piece leaving Medium in the dust in both cases because it doesn't add any.
Perhaps an inverse % for each? Light/Medium/Heavy armor mitigation of 15%/30%/45% for physical but 45%/30%/15% for spell respectively?
Or put anther way:
Heavy mitigating 45% physical and 15% spell
Medium mitigating 30% physical and 30% spell
Light mitigating 15% physical and 45% spell
I also agree that light armor should not inherently provide spell penetration unless medium or heavy did as well. Truthfully, spell and armor penetration should either be traits or enchants and not passive bonuses from armor.
Interesting posts, ill have to look into them more later.
I personally don't know how I feel about inversing the mitigations for armor types. Considering that most everything dps related in this game is tied to spells and Magicka based skills I don't find it to be a good idea to give light armor the highest spell resistance buff ratings...it'll still be the same situation we have now. I personally think that heavy should have the highest ratings for both spell mitigation and physical mitigation so as to promote its "tank" role. Now what I propose is a slight change to what you've stated:
Heavy gets 45% physical mitigation and 45% spell mitigation
Medium gets 30% physical mitigation and 15% spell mitigation
Light gets 15% physical mitigation and 30% spell mitigation.
I still don't feel that any of the armor lines should out-match heavy in any sort of resistance or mitigation ratings given the fact that it's supposed to be the intended line for "tanking" at least based off there current model that's what it seems to be going for.
The problem with doing that is that heavy will then become the armor of choice regardless of the other passives simply because it will mitigate everything.
There has to be some form of drawback attached if you do it that way.
Perhaps the old spell fizzle (miss) effect that used to be tied to heavier armor in older games?
Light = no fizzle chance, 15% physical mitigation, and 35% spell mitigation
Medium = 0.75% fizzle chance per piece, 30% physical mitigation, and 20% spell mitigation
Heavy = 1.5% fizzle chance per piece, 50% physical and spell mitigation.
Obviously some skills would have to be given exclusions to this, such as the Inner Fire taunt... but that could be done simply by tying them to weapon damage or crit.
Not necessarily...the extra Passives you gain from light and medium should out way (for a dps build) the mitigation bonuses you would gain from heavy to help make it more balanced, thus only people going for tankish builds would use heavy.
Medium would still provide good crit, stam regen, and attack speed, while light would have Magicka regen, spell crit, and spell penetration. For people who want to spec for dps roles they would use those armor types for those Passives. While people who wanted to have more tanky type roles would use heavy for the higher mitigations, but less overall dps output.
And obviously the mitigation numbers can be changed to more acceptable numbers, to prevent everyone from just switching over to heavy for the mit bonuses. Maybe more reasonable numbers would look like this:
Heavy: 28% physical mitigation and 28% spell mitigation
Medium: 21% physical mitigation and 14% spell mitigation
Light: 14% physical mitigation and 21% spell mitigation
Edited by NobleX35 on June 18, 2014 3:33PM"Only the dead have seen the end of war."0 -
Paladin_echo1✭✭✭I've come to the conclusion that for a stamina based tank, it as actually "better" to use medium armor with one hand and shield because of the synergy between tanking and the medium armor buffs.
Dexterity = more threat from crits
Wind Walker = faster stam regen for more blocking
Improved Sneak = initial big hit from stealth to start fight with higher threat without using a taunt
Agility = more swings which create more threat
Athletics = more mobility for a cheaper cost
Evasion and morphs = PURE miss chance, not % mitigation. Each time an enemy misses due to this skill = 100% mitigation. Combine this skill with the Hist Bark set which also grants dodge chance while blocking and roughly 35% - 42% of all incoming attacks should miss.
NB can even get a class skill that grants more on top of that using magicka instead of stam so it draws from both resource pools... depending on the morph that's anywhere between another 15% and 30%! albeit short term... 2 sec of 30% miss chance on activation and then another 24sec of 15% miss chance.
Provided you keep up both of these relatively expensive skills and block, that totals 72% miss chance for 2 sec and 58% miss chance for 24 sec... on top of the mitigation you can attain for when you do get hit.
Great for those oh crap moments or just to alternate the resources you are using.
I like this idea of having medium armor tank. Fixes a lot of issues with tanking being that heavy armor is so poor at doing its job. I actually think I remember doing this at one time. Wish they would make the stamina costs for CC and whatnot cost ALOT less. That and the same thing for stamina skills. It just needs a total re-evaluation.
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dragnier✭✭✭Paladin_echo1 wrote: »I've come to the conclusion that for a stamina based tank, it as actually "better" to use medium armor with one hand and shield because of the synergy between tanking and the medium armor buffs.
Dexterity = more threat from crits
Wind Walker = faster stam regen for more blocking
Improved Sneak = initial big hit from stealth to start fight with higher threat without using a taunt
Agility = more swings which create more threat
Athletics = more mobility for a cheaper cost
Evasion and morphs = PURE miss chance, not % mitigation. Each time an enemy misses due to this skill = 100% mitigation. Combine this skill with the Hist Bark set which also grants dodge chance while blocking and roughly 35% - 42% of all incoming attacks should miss.
NB can even get a class skill that grants more on top of that using magicka instead of stam so it draws from both resource pools... depending on the morph that's anywhere between another 15% and 30%! albeit short term... 2 sec of 30% miss chance on activation and then another 24sec of 15% miss chance.
Provided you keep up both of these relatively expensive skills and block, that totals 72% miss chance for 2 sec and 58% miss chance for 24 sec... on top of the mitigation you can attain for when you do get hit.
Great for those oh crap moments or just to alternate the resources you are using.
I like this idea of having medium armor tank. Fixes a lot of issues with tanking being that heavy armor is so poor at doing its job. I actually think I remember doing this at one time. Wish they would make the stamina costs for CC and whatnot cost ALOT less. That and the same thing for stamina skills. It just needs a total re-evaluation.
All they have to do is make CC break cost reduction included in one of the heavy armor passives... or perhaps in the one hand and shield passives... or both to some extent. This would help tanks immensely.
Another option would be to make Juggernaut passive grant % CC immunity and the activated skill Immovable and it's morphs into something more useful, like temporary max health or something.0 -
Lyall84✭✭✭✭GothicPython wrote: »Almost agree with you on the differences, I think the difference of mitigation between heavy and medium should be 25% and another 25% between medium and light. 10 to 12% between types seems too small to me.
I respect your input, but don't you think a 50% difference between heavy and light is too significant? We'd have the same situation we do now only with heavy armor. Over the course of a fight a 10-20% difference between heavy, medium, and light will make a huge and noticeable difference on its own even if it sounds small.
We are only talking about armor here not spell resistant. In pve, the light armor should not be taking physical damage unless the tank is not doing their job. So this difference is mainly effects pvp. In pvp, if they do not have that 50% difference in physical resistance between light and heavy, why would anyone go with a physical stamina build, be it medium or heavy?
Medium armor gets 21% critical and 10% attack speed. Light armor gets 41% spell pen and 10% critical... has the option of mage light for another 20% spell critical from the morph, and on top of that, for the most part they are ranged. So it is 21% critical and 10% attack speed melee vs 42% spell pen and 30% critical ranged.
Heavy gets 7% melee damage (14 if we had our way) and is fighting something that all his armor means nothing against. It is however much spell resistances he has vs that same 42% spell pen and 30% critical ranged monster.
Medium armor should be able to have an easier time taking on light armor vs heavy just by the nature of what armor they are wearing. Light armor should have an easier time taking on heavy than medium based on the speed and damage outputs (medium should be faster and do more damage). Heavy armor should have an easier time with medium vs light based on the type of damage they do.
10 to 15% between steps is too small vs that 42% spell pen mountain. That number by it self tells me the steps need to be at least that same 42% between light and heavy.Edited by Lyall84 on June 18, 2014 6:04PM0 -
Shaun98ca2✭✭✭✭✭I think people are missing the point of the armors themselves. The armors are only supposed to give slight bonuses. The thing about the game is player skill means more than what your wearing.
IF your a skilled player you SHOULD be able to tank fine in Light Armor considering you geared yourself to at least reach the soft cap.
CAN Heavy armor do it better YES, but Heavy armor SHOULDNT be the only means of tanking.
Spell Casters CAN wear Heavy Armor as it will increase their survivability but it will also at the same time decrease their casting efficiency.
This all lends well to the theme of the game with is Play the Way You Want.
There is NOTHING wrong with armor in the game. Its the balance between Magicka and Stamina that's the real issue.
But again with Magicka/Stamina there is a bigger picture we are still missing. LOT of people are on the forums claiming they are able to play their Melee classes quite well even in Veteran Rank.3 -
NobleX35✭✭✭✭GothicPython wrote: »Almost agree with you on the differences, I think the difference of mitigation between heavy and medium should be 25% and another 25% between medium and light. 10 to 12% between types seems too small to me.
I respect your input, but don't you think a 50% difference between heavy and light is too significant? We'd have the same situation we do now only with heavy armor. Over the course of a fight a 10-20% difference between heavy, medium, and light will make a huge and noticeable difference on its own even if it sounds small.
We are only talking about armor here not spell resistant. In pve, the light armor should not be taking physical damage unless the tank is not doing their job. So this difference is mainly effects pvp. In pvp, if they do not have that 50% difference in physical resistance between light and heavy, why would anyone go with a physical stamina build, be it medium or heavy?
Medium armor gets 21% critical and 10% attack speed. Light armor gets 41% spell pen and 10% critical... has the option of mage light for another 20% spell critical from the morph, and on top of that, for the most part they are ranged. So it is 21% critical and 10% attack speed melee vs 42% spell pen and 30% critical ranged.
Heavy gets 7% melee damage (14 if we had our way) and is fighting something that all his armor means nothing against. It is however much spell resistances he has vs that same 42% spell pen and 30% critical ranged monster.
Medium armor should be able to have an easier time taking on light armor vs heavy just by the nature of what armor they are wearing. Light armor should have an easier time taking on heavy than medium based on the speed and damage outputs (medium should be faster and do more damage). Heavy armor should have an easier time with medium vs light based on the type of damage they do.
10 to 15% between steps is too small vs that 42% spell pen mountain. That number by it self tells me the steps need to be at least that same 42% between light and heavy.
The issues between the armor Passives is the main reason behind this post. And you make some very good points, but my only fear is that if you increase the mitigation difference between the different armors too much then everyone will just swap to heavy and we'll have the same issue just backwards with a bunch of imbalances still.Shaun98ca2 wrote: »I think people are missing the point of the armors themselves. The armors are only supposed to give slight bonuses. The thing about the game is player skill means more than what your wearing.
IF your a skilled player you SHOULD be able to tank fine in Light Armor considering you geared yourself to at least reach the soft cap.
CAN Heavy armor do it better YES, but Heavy armor SHOULDNT be the only means of tanking.
Spell Casters CAN wear Heavy Armor as it will increase their survivability but it will also at the same time decrease their casting efficiency.
This all lends well to the theme of the game with is Play the Way You Want.
There is NOTHING wrong with armor in the game. Its the balance between Magicka and Stamina that's the real issue.
But again with Magicka/Stamina there is a bigger picture we are still missing. LOT of people are on the forums claiming they are able to play their Melee classes quite well even in Veteran Rank.
You clearly haven't looked close enough to the differences between the armor types and all of their Passives. Based on the Passives the armor lines give heavy is geared towards being the "tank" line, medium the "stamina dps/stealth" line, and light as the "ranged dps Magicka" line. However due to imbalances among these lines and current soft cap standings...light is far superior. You can do anything and everything in it because it ful-fills all roles. It should not be like this and is one of the main reasons for all imbalances in this game.
A person wearing light armor should not be a viable tank because that is not what the armor line is intended for based on the information presented to us.
And you are COMPLETELY wrong...armor passives and current softcap ratings are definitely not fine...they are completely imbalances right now, and is the main reason why everyone is running around wearin robes as if this were Harry Potter online.
Just because people are able to do it, and still play the game does not mean there still isn't an imbalance...I do have a stamina build and I can play it, but it is no where near as good as a Magicka build is. I'm not saying that stamina builds need to become op (far from it) but they do need to be re-worked to actually make them viable options.Edited by NobleX35 on June 18, 2014 7:50PM"Only the dead have seen the end of war."0 -
Lyall84✭✭✭✭Shaun98ca2 wrote: »I think people are missing the point of the armors themselves. The armors are only supposed to give slight bonuses. The thing about the game is player skill means more than what your wearing.
IF your a skilled player you SHOULD be able to tank fine in Light Armor considering you geared yourself to at least reach the soft cap.
CAN Heavy armor do it better YES, but Heavy armor SHOULDNT be the only means of tanking.
Spell Casters CAN wear Heavy Armor as it will increase their survivability but it will also at the same time decrease their casting efficiency.
This all lends well to the theme of the game with is Play the Way You Want.
There is NOTHING wrong with armor in the game. Its the balance between Magicka and Stamina that's the real issue.
But again with Magicka/Stamina there is a bigger picture we are still missing. LOT of people are on the forums claiming they are able to play their Melee classes quite well even in Veteran Rank.
By your logic then light should not be the only way to do damage either, but as the game is now, it is.
I will agree on the light armor tank for magicka encounters, but it should not be effective as heavy for physical regardless of player skill.Edited by Lyall84 on June 18, 2014 9:23PM0