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[Wall-Of-Text] Risk/Reward, Balance, Classes and Stamina

zazamalek
zazamalek
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A lot of people are complaining about balance in this game. I completely agree with this complaint and it directly affects me (I have invested a lot in my stamina NB) - because of that I have given the concept of "balance" a lot of thought.

Let's rewind back to a recent MMO that I played, one of the biggest balance in that game was regarding the "bezerker" stats. The bezerker set was basically an all-out glass cannon build that completely maximized all types of damage while having absolutely no survivability. The strange thing is, this set was seen as a OP. The problem came down to being able to burn through enemies before they were able to use a single "special attack" on group - zerker was extremely defensive in its offensive nature.

Another example of something was complained about a lot in the game was the rouge archetype. The problem came down to, as always, being able to reliably abort a fight in RvR/AvA coupled with not requiring to have defensive stats (because you could simply permastealth). This meant that the rouge would never lose and would score a kill 75% of the time.

What about ESO and DKs? A lot of people are complaining that "DKs can solo VR packs while other classes can't." As for the 2nd-most OP class in the game "Sorcs can just bolt escape out of fights" (yes, I'm ignoring the recent nerf).

People complain a lot about balance. I'm really starting to question whether balance can realistically achieved, there are too many variables - shouldn't we instead be talking about "zero-sum risk/reward." Look at all those examples of "unbalanced stuff" in games - they all come down to the fact that taking low risks resulted in high rewards.

Look at the situation of DKs vs. NBs (both heavy armor). Imagine the situation where both run into the middle of an enemy blob in Cyrodiil - what's the outcome? The DK will probably die, the NB is guaranteed to die, the DK will get a few kills, the NB will get no kills. "That's not how you play NB, noob." Of course it's not - but truth be told, soloing a zerg should always have zero reward except for the top "permilletile" of the playerbase (currently DKs soloing zergs is an extremely common occurrence). What happens with sorcs? They can spam some <Impulse>, get a few tags (if not kills) and then <Bolt Escape> out. Templars just die no matter what they do.

So, then, how do you play a NB? Well, of course, "ganky-ganky stabby-stabby." Hang on, there, though. The rate of NBs who can succeed at this is marginal compared to the number of DKs who can easily counter it - the risk is fair for the NB in this scenario but the risk is completely unfair (in that there is little) for the DK. DKs (even levels and gear) will win this fight in 99% of the case over the average of the playerbase - there is no risk for them. Only a top percentage of the DK players should be able to counter the average NB player "on their turf." Roaming as a DK should be more of a risk than roaming as a NB.

TLDR; The problem isn't balance in this game, it's risk/reward that is fundamentally broken in every single conceivable way.

How does this apply to stamina? The majority of the stamina abilities (some can be seen as almost acceptable, e.g. <Venom Arrow>) have lower damage than their magicka counterparts (given a class that has soft-capped the respective stat). A lot of people indicate that they should do similar damage to magicka abilities - while this is "balanced" it still completely breaks risk/reward. Why?

Each time I cast <Venom Arrow> I am decreasing the chances of being able to block, stun break or roll dodge in the event that I need to. Every time I use a weapon ability I am actually increasing the risk of me dying. What happens when a magicka user uses <Impulse>? The do damage, a lot of it - end of story, they are still as well defended as before. In addition they build their offensive ability (ultimate) faster.

That statement is based on personal experience. I did recently acquire some light armor for my NB and started experimenting with magicka. Instead of only being able to use my ulti every ~5 minutes (I'm not exaggerating) I can use it every ~45 seconds while in my LA.

Do you see the problem there? As a stamina user I am taking immense risk every time I use an ability to get a result that has less reward (damage) than what a magicka user has - by a colossal margin. The end of result of this is that:

TLDR; stamina builds should actually be the highest sustained DPS builds in the game, using stamina for DPS should continue to put the user at substantial risk.

- or - The risk for stamina (instead of the reward) should be drastically adjusted, but this would be harder to get right.
Edited by zazamalek on June 10, 2014 1:58PM
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  • AlexDougherty
    AlexDougherty
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    Ok, that's a wall of text alright.
    Yes stamina builds are pretty bad at the minute, and nightblades can die easily, but plenty of people keep saying they can hold their own in PVP, although maybe not against a zerg.
    People believe what they either want to be true or what they are afraid is true!
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  • zazamalek
    zazamalek
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    nightblades can die easily, but plenty of people keep saying they can hold their own in PVP

    They can, in the hands of a good player. I think once they fix the cloak issues the magicka NB will fall into line with the magicka DK/Sorc (being able to re-position/abort will compensate for their slightly lower DPS).
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  • Blackwidow
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    Early in beta I made a long post about how they should not have made most of the powers mana based.

    There should be about half stamina based and could even use some based off life force. (summon creature could cost 10% life instead of mana.)

    I explained in great detail how this balance was way off.

    But, as most beta pleas went, nothing changed.
    Edited by Blackwidow on June 10, 2014 2:31PM
  • zazamalek
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    Blackwidow wrote: »
    But, as most beta pleas went, nothing changed.

    If I had a penny for each patch that included disregarded beta feedback of mine, well, I guess would have 1.1.4 pennies :smiley:

    Multiple costs are a really interesting concept and would encourage stat diversity (instead of the current primary/health softcap meta). E.g. If most of the DK abilities cost a small amount of stamina (in addition to their magicka cost) we would probably see a lot of the glaring issues fall away: "block'n'spam" would no longer be viable.
    Edited by zazamalek on June 10, 2014 2:40PM
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  • FrauPerchta
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    Class skills being magic based was not a good design choice but's its in place and makes it easy to know if a skill is mage or stam based because all Class skills are mage and all weapons(expect staves) is stamina based. Easy to remember, nothing to go look up, easy as pie. The problem is that stamina/weapon skills are under powered and I am not convince that stamina gives the bonuses it's supposed to. Leave mage/class skills where they are, make sure they all work as intended then buff stam/weapon builds and make sure stamina bonuses work.

    Staves? Not sure as I have read they are mage/stamina based and I have heard they aren't.
  • zazamalek
    zazamalek
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    The problem is that stamina/weapon skills are under powered

    Yup, the core point of my argument: they should be more powerful than magicka ones (due to the risk you take by using them).
    I am not convince that stamina gives the bonuses it's supposed to.

    Time to PTS/FTC I guess ;).
    Leave mage/class skills where they are, make sure they all work as intended then buff stam/weapon builds and make sure stamina bonuses work.

    Agreed. Balancing in the presence of bugs is irresponsible so I'm in complete agreement with ZOS in terms of their approach.
    Staves? Not sure as I have read they are mage/stamina based and I have heard they aren't.

    Staves consume magicka and scale with magicka: http://esohead.com/skills/42949-impulse
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  • AlexDougherty
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    zazamalek wrote: »
    nightblades can die easily, but plenty of people keep saying they can hold their own in PVP

    They can, in the hands of a good player. I think once they fix the cloak issues the magicka NB will fall into line with the magicka DK/Sorc (being able to re-position/abort will compensate for their slightly lower DPS).

    Well I've yet to do any PVP, because of random patches of really bad lag, which is why I've said other people have said, I just know I can't use mine in PVE very well, he keeps dieing.
    People believe what they either want to be true or what they are afraid is true!
    Wizard's first rule
    Passion rules reason
    Wizard's third rule
    Mind what people Do, not what they say, for actions betray a lie.
    Wizard's fifth rule
    Willfully turning aside from the truth is treason to one's self
    Wizard's tenth rule
  • Fyrakin
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    Class skills being magic based was not a good design choice but's its in place and makes it easy to know if a skill is mage or stam based because all Class skills are mage and all weapons(expect staves) is stamina based. Easy to remember, nothing to go look up, easy as pie. The problem is that stamina/weapon skills are under powered and I am not convince that stamina gives the bonuses it's supposed to. Leave mage/class skills where they are, make sure they all work as intended then buff stam/weapon builds and make sure stamina bonuses work.

    Staves? Not sure as I have read they are mage/stamina based and I have heard they aren't.
    If you block/interrupt with a staff equipped you use stamina, ann special attacks use magicka.

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  • Obscure
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    @zazamalek
    For the most part your observations are accurate, though when it comes to class balance you're slightly misdiagnosing the problem. Classes are intended to have a level of predisposition to play style, where a Templar is a healer right out of the gates, a Dragonknight is a Tank, a Nightblade is a DPS, and a Sorc is a Crowd Controller. Every class has build options that allow them to do all of those things, yet not every class has skills to support doing those things. A Dragonknight is capable of withstanding more punishment than a Nightblade, but the Dragonknight has no execute skill for 300% more damage against a low health target, nor the ability to disengage when things go south, he's stuck there to the bitter end. This is "role balancing". When i bring up this method of class balancing that's when people bring up the whole "any class any play style" thing at which point the dots should connect. We have role balanced classes in a game specifically designed to allow any class to be played in any way. Now if every class can DPS, CC, Heal, and Tank, which would be the most advantageous to choose? The Tank or the CC. Why? Because of the thing you also mention in your post: Stamina inequality.

    Since all class skills use Magicka, to be better at playing your class the correct choice in Armor is light armor. Due to the lower damage of Stamina skills and the opportunity costs involved (loss of the ability to dodge, block, CC break, etc.) ignoring Stamina skills entirely to focus on Magicka abilities is almost natural, thus staves are your proper weaponry. Classes that have innately better defensive options by default have the freedom to simply specialize in dealing damage, and since both the best damage options and best survivability options both draw upon the same resource pool, Magicka. Builds then need only focus on that resource for all aspects of the build, marginalizing or even completely ignoring Stamina to be used only as a dodge/block/bash/CC break/stealth/sprint resource pool that is literally never drawn upon unless for those reasons. Every class can do this and when this "Mage" archetype play style is applied to every class, it not only out performs the "Rogue" archetype or the "Warrior" archetype, it actually does those things better than those play styles can, and to a degree that it crushes PvE content and is the optimal way to play in PvP. I've seen Nightblade's solo 4 man Craglorn bosses right along side Dragonknights, Templar, and Sorcerer builds. The common element? Light Armor, D-Staff, R-Staff, and substantial Magicka specialization.

    The classes are all easily overpowered when light armor, staves, and Magicka specilizations are involved, yet ZOS would rather ignore that being a problem and persists to Nerf individual class skills which only makes more bad options for players to toss on top of the heap of Stamina skills they'll never use Stamina. There's many ways to approach the problem to fix it, such as substantial additions of Stamina cost reductions, substantially increased Stamina based skill damage, or even a segregated Stamina based pool used for dodge/CC break/block/etc. that bleeds over to Stamina only after its exhausted. No one way is going to be perfect, but something needs to be done.
  • Hammerswarm
    I've often thought that role/utility should determine dps output.

    Is your only role to do damage? You should be better than most at it.
    If you have a sword and board you should take so much less damage from mobs that hit so hard that people should want you to be a tank. If you have a 2 hander you should be dealing damage, etc. with everything else.

    The problem with giving every class, every ability, is that at the end of the day you're trying to make every class equal by making them the same, instead of making them different.

    Soft caps make this even worse. As a Mage once I put bound armor on I am soft capped on armor, so if I wanted to use lightning form, bound armor, with a sword & board to be a tank I'd be soft capped on armor so fast it'd be silly to use all those things at once.

    Instead of asking questions like, "Why would anyone choose stamina weapons when destruction staves have great AOE, good debuffs, nice utility, and a single target damage spell." It seems like they just repeated the lines, "infinite choices, no roles."

    I am a Sorc, but I get it because I was melee dps in WOW. the following comparisons might name more sorc stuff because that's what I know.

    Melee single target dps should be higher than ranged singe target dps.
    Melee ranged AOE (pulsar), should be higher than ranged aoe(Volley, Lightining Splash)

    Why because the danger is higher the closer you are to targets. AOE in melee range of the boss will hit you too. Now how much higher the danger is in this game is debatable and that is where the balance comes in.

    Too far and no one plays sorcs, wields bows, or uses destruction staves.
    Not far enough and stam builds are on the outs.

    Real choice is the ability to specialize, not the ability to choose anything and have everything be the same.
  • Hamfast
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    As walls of text go, this was an awesome wall of text...

    I don't think you addressed bows, like Melee weapons, special bow attacks use stamina, meaning they use the resource you avoid damage with, but they are used at range, which should lower the risk... the rewards for using a bow is poison arrow, if you can interrupt someone you get some reward, they don't turn you into a bloody spot on the ground, but they do get to see you (assuming you fired from Stealth)... they then get to blast again, you can interrupt again (hopefully) or you can try to dodge... both use stamina thus lowering your ability to survive.

    I am unsure of the resource cost of an interrupted action, if the resource is expended even if the action is interrupted, then there is a reward gained for the interrupt beyond the interrupt itself and it becomes a resource/recovery fight, if you with your bow can cost your opponent enough Magicka to stop or slow their attacks/escape long enough to kill them, or if you will run out of stamina and assume the normal position as floor decoration.
    Of all the things I have lost, I miss my mind the most...
  • zazamalek
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    Obscure wrote: »
    [...]

    Man that's some excellent discussion points. Awesome wall of text in response to my wall of text ;).

    Class Roles: I agree, wholly. Problem is some of the classes cough magicka LA stave cough are filling all the roles. I'm sure everyone should agree that melee should be THE go-to class for single-target fights (note: I specifically avoid "damage") - yet why are some classes doing better? Again, instead of attempting to balance it in accordance with damage there should be some way for a stamina-only group to tackle the trials wispmother (yeah, somebody will need to be magicka for the healing). It may not be as quick (i.e. not a DPS check), but risk mitigation or something would come into play - "you've taken the risk of being a melee stamina dude, you shall be rewarded with a clear if you are skilled enough." Heck, considering how tricky some of the bosses are for melee, melee-only groups should be clearing them faster (because of the associated risk of e.g. the storm atronach). Currently melee classes get kicked from dungeon groups, something is fundamentally wrong with melee risk/reward. Keeping in mind that melee is most often stamina-based.

    So many of the bosses actively punish melee that even support (apparently) tells you to use a bow for [the end boss].
    [...]

    Again, excellent points.

    1H/S: I agree. The fact that this is a "secondary concern" for DPS classes (especially in Cyrodiil) is a problem. 1H/S should be nowhere near a DPS build - using <Invasion> as a stun mechanism should involve more risk for DPS classes (they can use it, if they fall into an elite skill bracket).

    Bound Armor: A perfect example. Why can LA sorcs be near as-good tanks as HA users? But, HA users can't do meaningful DPS? The current situation is:
    • LA: Fill any role, either very well or just competently.
    • MA: What, are you nuts?
    • HA: Tank, DPS if you are DK.

    I'm very happy with distinct responsibilities between LA, MA and HA (and stamina/magicka) but then stick to it. I'm also somewhat happy with "yay! All builds can do all the things!" but then stick with that. Something is very wrong when a HA soft-capped stamina tank (me) stands in the middle of a zerg blocking, and a HA soft-capped magicka DPS (my buddy) survives longer than me. I'm using <Unstoppable> and <Evasion>, they are just spamming <Impulse>, <Talons> and <Banner>. If stamina is for survivability, so be it! But then why do I die more?

    Overall, though, @Hammerswarm‌ you provide some nice examples for appropriate risk/reward. As a 2H/Bow user I generally get better DPS out of my bow (even if it's shoddy compared to my magicka abilities) - which is wrong. I should get better DPS out of both of them, with 2H having a significant upper-hand.
    Hamfast wrote: »
    [...]

    Also, excellent points. I have one retort though: Crystal Fragments, Light Attack, Crystal Fragments, Light Attack, Mages Fury... :)

    Thing is, the mage still has two pools to draw from. Eventually you will reach a point where maybe both of you don't have stamina but they still have magicka, even if a little.
    Edited by zazamalek on June 10, 2014 5:17PM
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  • Ragekniv
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    Empirical feedback is not hard to quantify to establish a balancing point for all classes.

    OP Sorcs and DKs still post roughly twice the sustained DPS output of Templars!

    Templars are the only class that had their resource mechanic removed from Beta.

    Half the classes remain broken while the other two have remained OP FOTM from Beta.

    Buff, nerf, shatter... I don't care anymore as long as all classes have equal sustained DPS output and resource mechanics.

    I just want to play the class the way I want to play and be effective and relevant in ESO as promised in the EA marketing hype prior to launch.
    Edited by Ragekniv on June 10, 2014 5:42PM
  • SilverWF
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    only stamina-using specs was not intended, so stop moan about this!
    Edited by SilverWF on June 10, 2014 5:53PM
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  • zazamalek
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    SilverWF wrote: »
    only stamina-using specs was not intended, so stop moan about this!

    So what's it for, because it doesn't do much for survivability. Why have it at all?

    It's there for a reason.

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  • Hamfast
    Hamfast
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    zazamalek wrote: »
    Hamfast wrote: »
    [...]

    Also, excellent points. I have one retort though: Crystal Fragments, Light Attack, Crystal Fragments, Light Attack, Mages Fury... :)

    Thing is, the mage still has two pools to draw from. Eventually you will reach a point where maybe both of you don't have stamina but they still have magicka, even if a little.

    Assuming 2 things, first the interrupt works and second the cost for the action is still paid (I am not sure of either point) then your "Crystal Fragments, Light Attack, Crystal Fragments, Light Attack, Mages Fury... :)" would become "Crystal Fragments (interrupted), Light Attack, Crystal Fragments(interrupted), Light Attack, Mages Fury... :)" meaning they took more damage then you up to that point... yes, they are drawing on 2 pools to your 1, yes, it would be more of a holding action then a fight, yes, you would miss one of those interrupts and become a red mist on the wall... but my attempt was to look at the risk/reward model, lower risk with the range attacks, but a lot lesser rewards because the Magicka user is going to hit you a lot harder then you will hit them if you both hit.

    By the same token, damage taken by the attack, damage mitigation, is also skewed, someone in LA should take appreciably more damage from any physical hit, Damage from a Bow against an HA target should also do more damage (stick a pencil through a plastic milk jug, then move the jug around and watch the pencil tip) for a history lesson, read about the battle of Agincourt
    Of all the things I have lost, I miss my mind the most...
  • Wifeaggro13
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    SilverWF wrote: »
    only stamina-using specs was not intended, so stop moan about this!

    Hey melee weapons were meant to be viable you un informed troll. The issue is melee weapons all together are far less performing then staves and light armor. Go do some damned research never in any pre launch game interview did any of the zos devs state you will be wearing robes and using staves to play end game.
  • zazamalek
    zazamalek
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    Hamfast wrote: »
    By the same token, damage taken by the attack, damage mitigation, is also skewed, someone in LA should take appreciably more damage from any physical hit, Damage from a Bow against an HA target should also do more damage (stick a pencil through a plastic milk jug, then move the jug around and watch the pencil tip) for a history lesson, read about the battle of

    I think rock/paper/scissors would do a lot for this game. I think there would be a lot of development involved in that, so it may just be a blue sky dream.

    I really can't disagree though - the slight problem with your argument is a skewed error margin. Missing one interrupt means red mist for the stamina user, missing one attack/whatever for the magicka user means little.
    Edited by zazamalek on June 10, 2014 6:15PM
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  • SilverWF
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    SilverWF wrote: »
    only stamina-using specs was not intended, so stop moan about this!

    Hey melee weapons were meant to be viable you un informed troll. The issue is melee weapons all together are far less performing then staves and light armor. Go do some damned research never in any pre launch game interview did any of the zos devs state you will be wearing robes and using staves to play end game.

    Did you ever seen class-skills? They all are pretty strong and all of them are using MAGICKA!
    So who the hell will be more viable: someone in light with magicka passives or someone else?
    It was obvious to anyone at beta!
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  • Wifeaggro13
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    SilverWF wrote: »
    SilverWF wrote: »
    only stamina-using specs was not intended, so stop moan about this!

    Hey melee weapons were meant to be viable you un informed troll. The issue is melee weapons all together are far less performing then staves and light armor. Go do some damned research never in any pre launch game interview did any of the zos devs state you will be wearing robes and using staves to play end game.

    Did you ever seen class-skills? They all are pretty strong and all of them are using MAGICKA!
    So who the hell will be more viable: someone in light with magicka passives or someone else?
    It was obvious to anyone at beta!
    Did you wven follow the game. Every single test of anything past level 20 was closed . And any end game was tested by inside zos.
  • zazamalek
    zazamalek
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    SilverWF wrote: »
    Did you ever seen class-skills? They all are pretty strong and all of them are using MAGICKA!
    So who the hell will be more viable: someone in light with magicka passives or someone else?
    It was obvious to anyone at beta!

    Calm yourself. If stamina being broken was obvious to everyone should they cease making balance changes? DK was also the obvious choice - everyone should just play DK and everyone should use the same armor. Everyone should slot banner and soul assault. They should just remove all other classes and abilities from the game.

    Explain the presence these abilities:

    Why are the in the game if they aren't supposed to be used? It means nothing that magicka was found to be superior in the beta - given the presence of so many stamina-based DPS abilities stamina should be as-viable.
    Did you wven follow the game. Every single test of anything past level 20 was closed . And any end game was tested by inside zos.

    Leave him be, man. He's made his point. We don't want this thread to be closed - let's keep it constructive: there been some great arguments made so far.
    Edited by zazamalek on June 10, 2014 6:26PM
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  • Hammerswarm
    Ragekniv wrote: »
    [...]

    IMHO the sustained dps of melee classes should be better, and they should not be allowed to sustain it by game mechanics. So that when they have to roll dodge away from a fight (which they have to maintain enough stamina to roll dodge) they should be able to pick up their dps enough to remain relevant in the total when they get back on DPS.

    This IMHO is how you balance out ranged vs. melee dps, and how you build raid encounters.

    If you had a mob that didn't hit back with unlimited health and a melee dps and a ranged dps going to town on it the melee should out do the ranged dps. Why? because that's not how most fights go, mobs fight back, and AOEs are more targeted on melee dps forcing them to either stand in, be hit, and require heals (okay if you have good healing) or move their behinds, and stop dpsing for a moment to clear the AOE before they get wrecked.

    In this way you can set up lots of interesting fight mechanics and the mechanics where you need a variety of people in roles across several encounters.

    In example:
    Fight A: Punishes Melee DPS
    Fight B: Burn timer, relatively safe for melee DPS.

    In this setup you'd need both because a group constructed without melee dps would not get past the burn timer boss. You'd need the higher dps of some melee people to put you over the top.

    If ranged is as good, or better, then you don't need melee and those fights become bland, and melee gets totally left out in the cold.
  • tino.antoninieb17_ESO
    I talk strictly about pve . Think that pve and pvp should be totally separated by making same spells doing differently in pvp and pve ( like teleport which is not stunning in pvp).

    I have NB and DK. I love them equally apart from the fact that i have to play caster and hate that from the bottom of my heart. They are equally geared and equally close to cookie cutter builds.
    DK is still significantly better (10-15% dps wise single target and more in aoe) for group play than NB.
    Besides dps - DK contribution to group play is much higher.

    After balancing proper relation should be:
    1) NB > DK ( single target wise ) at least for 15-20% .
    2) DK> NB ( aoe ) for not more then 10-15 % ( coz in overall damage AOE is participating much more then Single target )
    3) Difference in contribution to the group should be reduced by giving to the NB some love.

    Note:

    That balancing thing should not be done through nerfing DK coz that will give advantage to sorcs.
    I think that Templars should be boosted big time regarding dps .
    In general when we talk balancing dps would men :
    1) Sorcs and DK's are refference point and they shouldnt move
    2) NB's should be buffed ( look up for correlation with dk)
    3) Templars should be buffed big time

    Stamina/melee driven dps should be equal to Magic/caster dps ( normalised for average encounter ( end content ) profile. That would mean that melee friendly encounter ( high dps uptime for melee players ) should give advantage to Stamina/melee and non melee friendly encounter would give advantage to Magic/caster dps .
  • hk11
    hk11
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    I'm not really going to play until I can feel comfortable with a melee class.

    I keep waiting for something to change, but when reading the latest ask us anything they made absolutely no comment about melee/stamina builds.

    So either they are ignoring the problem because they are unable to fix it, or they think that it's OK the way it is. I just cannot understand this approach. It doesn't take 6 months to fix a problem. The guys at Carbine are putting out fixes for even the smallest inbalances nearly daily.
    Edited by hk11 on June 18, 2014 12:26PM
  • zazamalek
    zazamalek
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    1) NB > DK ( single target wise ) at least for 15-20% .
    2) DK> NB ( aoe ) for not more then 10-15 % ( coz in overall damage AOE is participating much more then Single target )

    I agree with this completely. It makes sense that the archetype dictates the strengths of that class. Two additions though:

    1) Spellcaster/multi-target archetypes should struggle with single-target damage but they should still be viable. DKs are currently far too good for single-target damage.
    2) Melee/single-target archetypes should struggle with multi-target damage but they should still be viable. NBs are currently too crap for multi-target damage.
    Difference in contribution to the group should be reduced by giving to the NB some love.

    There was a suggestion (not my own) to add more synergies to NB "hotbar abilities". E.g. A root or damage synergy with Path of Darkness.
    Sorcs and DK's are refference point and they shouldnt move

    In terms of magicka, yes. Magicka balance is at an acceptable level.

    As previously said, Stamina should be doing more damage per-cost than Magicka (due to it doubling as a defensive resource). How much more damage I don't know: this one would be likely a nightmare to balance correctly and fairly.
    Edited by zazamalek on June 18, 2014 1:13PM
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  • zazamalek
    zazamalek
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    hk11 wrote: »
    So either they are ignoring the problem because they are unable to fix it, or they think that it's OK the way it is.
    [...] We will have at least one more set of patch notes to add to 1.2 before it goes live next week. We are also working on a status update on other game content and systems (such as our plans for stamina/weapon ability builds, Templars, and Heavy and Medium armor) that we hope to share with you this week.

    (Emphasis mine)
    410
  • dragnier
    dragnier
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    zazamalek wrote: »
    Staves consume magicka and scale with magicka: http://esohead.com/skills/42949-impulse

    Except for the light/heavy attack damage... that scales with stamina for some strange reason instead of magicka.
  • zazamalek
    zazamalek
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    dragnier wrote: »
    Except for the light/heavy attack damage... that scales with stamina for some strange reason instead of magicka.

    People only use it for animation cancelling anyways ;). Light/heavy attacks are uninspiring, even with soft-capped stamina.
    Edited by zazamalek on June 18, 2014 1:40PM
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  • dragnier
    dragnier
    ✭✭✭
    zazamalek wrote: »
    dragnier wrote: »
    Except for the light/heavy attack damage... that scales with stamina for some strange reason instead of magicka.

    People only use it for animation cancelling anyways ;). Light/heavy attacks are uninspiring, even with soft-capped stamina.

    Yeah, I just wanted to be crystal clear about this point and to show how skewed that really is... I mean stamina increases the damage of a magicka based weapon? How does that make sense...
  • steveb16_ESO46
    steveb16_ESO46
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    zazamalek wrote: »
    SilverWF wrote: »
    only stamina-using specs was not intended, so stop moan about this!

    So what's it for, because it doesn't do much for survivability. Why have it at all?

    It's there for a reason.

    Pay attention. Weapons are only there for decoration you silly boy. He used all CAPS, what does it take to get through to you? :D
    Edited by steveb16_ESO46 on June 18, 2014 2:49PM
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