Animation canceling, exploit or playing as intended?

Hilgara · June 2014

I'd be happy if they change it as long as they do the same for the mobs. Ever tried to block an NPC uppercut after the animation has started? It seems that the damage is already committed at the start of the animation not at the end , which is why animation cancelling works at all.

steveb16_ESO46 · June 2014

Hilgara wrote: »

Its a mechanic that has always been in the game. If it was unintended I think they would have fixed it by now. I agree that if you are using macros to do this then its cheating but just weaving light attacks in using button presses is actually quite difficult to do. it's not giving people an easy option to increase damage. Its a skill that needs to be learned. Just like having to learn an effective rotation.

Right. Does that apply to the extremely long list of everything else one might have expected they would have 'fixed by now'?

It's an exploit and people deliberately using it are cheating.

Hilgara · June 2014

steveb16_ESO46 wrote: »

Right. Does that apply to the extremely long list of everything else one might have expected they would have 'fixed by now'?

It's an exploit and people deliberately using it are cheating.

How do you think this came about? Players wanting to maximise their damage would try to time the next attack right at the end of an animation. Eventually you find yourself going a little early but then realise that the damage is still applied. So you go a little earlier next time. Until the point when you realise you can follow up immediately. Now were these people cheating? Did they set out to deliberately exploit a loophole in the game. assuming that this is a loophole of course (we have had no word from ZOS either way on this as far as I am aware)

Any sensible person (especially those who seem to find the game too difficult) would learn from the lessons of others and apply the same technique, assuming of course that they had the mental dexterity to weave all those instants in. Until ZOS either change it or make a statement regarding it then its FAIR game. Otherwise using any ability that is unintentionally OP is also cheating. So all you DK's and Sorcs have been cheating from day 1

Tannakaobi · June 2014

daneyulebub17_ESO wrote: »

Nah. People think animation is a cool down. It's not. It's animation. If they wanted cool down, they should put it in.

They might yet do that, but until they do, it's not an exploit. It's adept usage of the play mechanics.

Bollocks! It's an exploit because some dumb *** didn't think it through. Not only is it awful, but it looks stupid.

When it's fixed, which it will be you will have all these wingers saying, whaa! whaa! I can't play any more.... whaa! Then they will be nerf..nerf...nerf... because they are being owned in PVP.
They won't be the ones that found the exploit, (they will just move on) just the ones that copied.

Hilgara · June 2014

Tannakaobi wrote: »

Bollocks! It's an exploit because some dumb *** didn't think it through. Not only is it awful, but it looks stupid.

When it's fixed, which it will be you will have all these wingers saying, whaa! whaa! I can't play any more.... whaa! Then they will be nerf..nerf...nerf... because they are being owned in PVP.
They won't be the ones that found the exploit, (they will just move on) just the ones that copied.

The people using this effectively are the ones that took the time to try and perfect their rotation and thereby stumbled on this. They already have a very effective combat rotation that will actually be made simpler if animation cancelling is removed. They will still be out DPS'ing you.

VampiricOmen · June 2014

Strange. In another game I played, animation cancelling was considered a clever use of game mechanics. Since the people who primarily did this used one shot weapons, cancelling the reload animation increased DPS and reduced the risk of death significantly. You would either use a skill or item as soon as the number of shots in the chamber went up, thereby dropping the time for a reload in half or more. With certain guns, reload cancelling was somewhat necessary otherwise you'd spend more time reloading than doing anything else (sniper rifles and shotguns were primary targets for reload cancelling). Mind, that game didn't have player versus player, only single player and co-operative multiplayer.

I personally do not view animation cancelling as an exploit. I don't use it in this game, not intentionally anyway, but I don't PvP either where it could be considered an "unfair" advantage. I just hope that developer input can be brought forward to clarify whether or not this is in fact, an exploit, or just another way to utilise game mechanics.

niocwy · June 2014

It's not cheating. If it where cheating, devs would have reacted a long time ago.

Is it intended ? I don't know. Until they talk to us about this (if anyone have a source about a statement they made ...).

So for now, if you use it, then it's ok, it's just a way to raise your DPS.

If you don't, it's ok too, but then you know you're not maxing out your DPS (and that's not a problem for a lot of players). Could be your doom in PvP though

(although I saw some trials groups requiring the mastering of animation cancelling *sigh*)

On a side note, doesn't cancelling a heavy attack already make the damage lower than a full charged ? Just like channelled attack would tick less if cancelled (it sure doesn't work that way for spells and light attacks though)

zgrssd · June 2014

We need to disect the question properly.
1. Is it intended?
I doubt this. It seems like an unintentional side effect.
That blocking can override skill cooldown seems intended (a defensive feature).
That use can cancel the light attack animation seems intended too (otherwise skills might not be responsive enough).
That you can repeat that? Propably not intended.

2. When will it be fixed?
Difficult question. There are currently other problems with the PvP and lategame balance (NB&Templar vs DK and Sorc; stam vs magica builds). It mitigates those problems a bit so it will propably be kept around till those problems have been mostly dealt with.

No point nerfing a too powerfull NB ability before fixing the not working ones.

3. is using it againstthe TOS?
Doubtfull. It's widely know and reported so we can asume your obligation to report it does not apply anymore.
It is also widely enough know that everyone could use it.

4. Is it a exploit?
That debate is older then WoW. We are not going to solve it here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exploit_(online_gaming)

In video games, an exploit (colloquially sploit) is the use of a bug or glitches, game system, rates, hit boxes, or speed, etc. by a player to their advantage in a manner not intended by the game's designers.[1] Exploits have been classified as a form of cheating; however, the precise determination of what is or is not considered an exploit can be controversial. This debate stems from a number of factors but typically involves the argument that the issues are part of the game and require no changes or external programs to take advantage of them.[2]

Game mechanics
Taking advantage of the systems that make up the gameplay. A game mechanics exploit is not a bug—it is working as designed, but at the same time is not working as intended. An example is the "wavedash" in Super Smash Bros. Melee, where the momentum gained from using a directional aerial dodge could be retained on landing; with proper timing this allows characters to use a stationary attack while sliding across the ground.

Venithar · June 2014

Worstluck wrote: »

If you want to do the semantics thing, yes it would be exploiting game mechanics, however, it is obvious that ZoS does not share your view, or else they would have banned everyone who uses it, made a statement not do it, or changed it already.

Just like the banned all the people who exploited caltrops right?

fyendiarb16_ESO · June 2014

I think many mistake using, intentionally or unintentionally, exploits within a game as being the same as cheating. In some cases it is, but not always. In this case I don't believe you can call it cheating.

A dog has four legs, having four legs does not make something a dog. The same goes for exploits. You can cheat by using exploits, but using an exploit is not by definition cheating. Sometimes it is just a design flaw that some use to perfection and gain a big advantage while others happen to use it because of the flaw itself.

Cheating is intentionally using whatever you can to get an unfair advantage over others while exploits can sometimes be used to get an equal playing field. Currently not using this exploit is not only very hard to do, but also gives others a big advantage over you. So in this case using this exploit can't be called cheating.

At least that is how I look at it.

Until we get an official claim regarding this we don't know whether or not it is intended to work like it does. I doubt it was intended and thus call it an exploit, but if it was intended then I would stand corrected.

The main question is whether or not it is working as the devs intended or not.

edit: a typo, probably missed some others though.

steveb16_ESO46 · June 2014

Hilgara wrote: »

The people using this effectively are the ones that took the time to try and perfect their rotation and thereby stumbled on this. They already have a very effective combat rotation that will actually be made simpler if animation cancelling is removed.

'Oh look guys. A cheat. When we're not on the forums telling everyone else to LTP, let's exploit the hell out of it. Because not cheating is for losers.'

But you carry on and those of us who knew about it but don't do it because, because well, it's cheating; will continue not doing it.

Hilgara · June 2014

steveb16_ESO46 wrote: »

'Oh look guys. A cheat.

Lol man how old are you?

Tannakaobi · June 2014

Hilgara wrote: »

Tannakaobi wrote: »

Bollocks! It's an exploit because some dumb *** didn't think it through. Not only is it awful, but it looks stupid.

When it's fixed, which it will be you will have all these wingers saying, whaa! whaa! I can't play any more.... whaa! Then they will be nerf..nerf...nerf... because they are being owned in PVP.
They won't be the ones that found the exploit, (they will just move on) just the ones that copied.

The people using this effectively are the ones that took the time to try and perfect their rotation and thereby stumbled on this. They already have a very effective combat rotation that will actually be made simpler if animation cancelling is removed. They will still be out DPS'ing you.

You know nothing about me or my DPS and stooping to personal insults is petty. If you had understood my post, which is as clear as day you would have read that I was talking about the people who read about it or watched a clip. Not the 'few' that stumbled across it.

Either way it is still an exploit, one I could have used, but chose not to. Does that make me a better human being? Too right it does!

Tannakaobi · June 2014

niocwy wrote: »

It's not cheating. If it where cheating, devs would have reacted a long time ago.

<snip>

What, like they did bots?

Hilgara · June 2014

Tannakaobi wrote: »

Either way it is still an exploit, one I could have used, but chose not to. Does that make me a better human being? Too right it does!

You're a better human being than me because you don't animation cancel....
riiight........moving on.

Soothy · June 2014

Hilgara wrote: »

Tannakaobi wrote: »

Either way it is still an exploit, one I could have used, but chose not to. Does that make me a better human being? Too right it does!

You're a better human being than me because you don't animation cancel....
riiight........moving on.

I'm presuming this is an advantage used by Magicka players? I presume because I really haven't experienced it in my stamina build.
It works quite the opposite if I do animation cancel in my 2H attacks. If I interrupt the animation, my attacks get cancelled and do no damage. It's actually quite annoying.

Tannakaobi · June 2014

Hilgara wrote: »

Tannakaobi wrote: »

Either way it is still an exploit, one I could have used, but chose not to. Does that make me a better human being? Too right it does!

You're a better human being than me because you don't animation cancel....
riiight........moving on.

Learn to take a joke! I know these things can be missed in written word, but a big

kind of gives it away.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tongue-in-cheek

Hilgara · June 2014

Tannakaobi wrote: »

Learn to take a joke! I know these things can be missed in written word, but a big kind of gives it away.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tongue-in-cheek

Ah, actually it didn't come out as an smiley it came out as a yellow full stop on my screen. (crappy works computer using ancient IE

Tannakaobi · June 2014

Hilgara wrote: »

Tannakaobi wrote: »

Learn to take a joke! I know these things can be missed in written word, but a big kind of gives it away.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tongue-in-cheek

Ah, actually it didn't come out as an smiley it came out as a yellow full stop on my screen. (crappy works computer using ancient IE

Lol!

I'll let you off, I honestly don't care if you want to use what I think is an exploit, you play as you want, I'll play as I want.

If we meet on the battlefield, I'll bury you!

(That's a smiley wink thingy!) lol

Thechemicals · June 2014

fyendiarb16_ESO wrote: »

It feels like a massive exploit to me.

Its not. I have played aoc/dcu and other games that use this kind of combat system and they all have chaining and clipping. It had been confirmed by those game as well that this is part of the engine and working as intended. Its a very old combat system, and this arguement is very old and tiresome.

Its gives you the chance to do some awesome chaining like heavy attacks clipped into really powerful attack skills that can cause serious damage. Without it, i wouldnt play this clunky combat system, i can barely handle its clunkyness as is. Im used to fluid combat thats fast and furious because i enjoy speed.

This is not an exploit. In other games, players would ragequit and complain because they simply dont want to understand that an action is better and more enjoyable when it can be connected and/or clipped into another action. Not everything can be clipped into this game. I had posted a thread that was overlooked by the community but ill link it to you. Especially read the second paragraph, which explains in detaila and also shows that many skills cant be clipped because even though they are instant cast-- they effect is trigger at the middle or end of that instant cast(.8).

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/109700/a-note-tip-eyeopener-about-dps-and-dps-addons-for-new-players#latest

steveb16_ESO46 · June 2014

Tannakaobi wrote: »

Hilgara wrote: »

Tannakaobi wrote: »

Learn to take a joke! I know these things can be missed in written word, but a big kind of gives it away.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tongue-in-cheek

Ah, actually it didn't come out as an smiley it came out as a yellow full stop on my screen. (crappy works computer using ancient IE

Lol!

I'll let you off, I honestly don't care if you want to use what I think is an exploit, you play as you want, I'll play as I want.

If we meet on the battlefield, I'll bury you! (That's a smiley wink thingy!) lol

Yes. People can play as they want so long as those who think it fine to exploit stop it with their variants of LTP in any thread about VR difficulty now that we know where their awesomeness partially comes from. It makes their opinion irrelevant as game difficulty and features should not be balanced against exploits.

That this is an exploit that further rewards magika over stamina dos just makes the whole thing worse.

Quite why the game design does not apply effects at the end of the animation I don't know.

To me the whole thing looks like the issue of diving and gamesmanship in football. In some part of the world it is seen as admirable and in some it's seen as cheating. Which is why Suarez and Young get such stick.

Given the huge advantage this exploit gives to me it's just cheating to knowingly exploit it and if I did it deliberately I would count that as cheating.

Until I found out about this exploit I used to wonder how in PvP some people were just slaughtering at what looked like impossible speeds. Now I know.

Goresnort · June 2014

This is a really interesting topic.

I’m asking myself the following question.

Is balancing of the classes and skill lines dps output done in regards to attacks that hit actually playing their entire animation? Or is balancing of dps output done on the basis of the animations only running parts of their sequence while still generating a full hit, and allowing a more rapid execution of following attacks?

That question has quite some impact on how we should view current dev efforts on class and skill balancing.

Would like to see a comment from ZOS in regards to the content of this thread.

Players will do extensive research, rotation practice, and class/skillset building to gain full potential from current game mechanics.

ZOS’s stance on this topic not being known has some backfire potential, and makes it hard to evaluate and give feedback on class and skill line balancing efforts.

If ZOS has made a statement about this, please disregard the content of this post.
Greatly appreciated if anyone has a link to provide.

Thechemicals · June 2014

Thechemicals wrote: »

fyendiarb16_ESO wrote: »

It feels like a massive exploit to me.

Its not. I have played aoc/dcu and other games that use this kind of combat system and they all have chaining and clipping. It had been confirmed by those game as well that this is part of the engine and working as intended. Its a very old combat system, and this arguement is very old and tiresome.

Its gives you the chance to do some awesome chaining like heavy attacks clipped into really powerful attack skills that can cause serious damage. Without it, i wouldnt play this clunky combat system, i can barely handle its clunkyness as is. Im used to fluid combat thats fast and furious because i enjoy speed.

This is not an exploit. In other games, players would ragequit and complain because they simply dont want to understand that an action is better and more enjoyable when it can be connected and/or clipped into another action. Not everything can be clipped into this game. I had posted a thread that was overlooked by the community but ill link it to you. Especially read the second paragraph, which explains in detaila and also shows that many skills cant be clipped because even though they are instant cast-- they effect is trigger at the middle or end of that instant cast(.8).

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/109700/a-note-tip-eyeopener-about-dps-and-dps-addons-for-new-players#latest

Hate to bump my own post but you should really read this. Itll at least convince some that this is not an expoit and should be used as much as possible.

Tannakaobi · June 2014

steveb16_ESO46 wrote: »

To me the whole thing looks like the issue of diving and gamesmanship in football. In some part of the world it is seen as admirable and in some it's seen as cheating. Which is why Suarez and Young get such stick.

It's a good comparison, Suarez is just like a exploiting DK

Although handling the ball on the line and biting people is probably considered cheating the world over.

davidetombab16_ESO · June 2014

not a exploit, simple bad game design. I prefer more skills on bar and cooldown for all abilities.

Hilgara · June 2014

steveb16_ESO46 wrote: »

Yes. People can play as they want so long as those who think it fine to exploit stop it with their variants of LTP in any thread about VR difficulty now that we know where their awesomeness partially comes from. It makes their opinion irrelevant as game difficulty and features should not be balanced against exploits.

That this is an exploit that further rewards magika over stamina dos just makes the whole thing worse.

Quite why the game design does not apply effects at the end of the animation I don't know.

To me the whole thing looks like the issue of diving and gamesmanship in football. In some part of the world it is seen as admirable and in some it's seen as cheating. Which is why Suarez and Young get such stick.

Given the huge advantage this exploit gives to me it's just cheating to knowingly exploit it and if I did it deliberately I would count that as cheating.

Until I found out about this exploit I used to wonder how in PvP some people were just slaughtering at what looked like impossible speeds. Now I know.

Some people want to put the cart before the horse.

"I want to fight this way using these abilities and wearing this armour and ZoS should give me a mob that dies as a result".

That's not how gaming should work. They supply the mob. You figure out how to kill it and are given enough freedom to do so.

Animation cancelling has nothing to do with learning vet content. its not of any use in normal levelling. Its only used on long drawn out fights or in particularly well balanced PvP battles.

Hell I rarely have to hit a normal same level mob more than a couple of times so animation cancelling is next to impossible anyway and would only give the damage off on light attack extra. Keeping saying that animation cancelling is the reason some people dint find the content too difficult is just making you look silly

Thechemicals · June 2014

Sigh, You can take a noob to water but you cant make him drink.

Tannakaobi · June 2014

Thechemicals wrote: »

wibble...

It's exploitation! It's simple. Why? you ask, because it's not realistic. If you go to hit someone with a sword, but then don't bother and instead bash them with a shield in reality you don't kill them with the sword.

It doesn't matter how you wrap it up or how long it has been around. It's a computer error, and if you use it you are exploiting an error.

Football games used to have a similar problem where you could just run forward with the ball with a top class player and take on half a team and score. My friends and I used to mock it and call it a 118. (as in straight through 118, a telephone advert) The point is it is not how the beautiful game is played in real life, such a feat would be epic and near impossible. Games just have a hard time being realistic with some things.

Morticielle · June 2014

The problem is that Zenimax in their obsession with 'immersion' implemented some very strange concepts and techniques into this game and substituting a normal GCD with this animation-GCD was a dumb idea to say the least. And because of that dumb idea we now have this unnecessary discussion.

As long as Zenimax does not officially call animation cancelling an exploit and by that admits another bug, it is not an exploit. Period.

Aoifesan · June 2014

It's intended, so you can interrupt that stupid hand waving and Block or Dodge roll instantly to avoid the big attack that was just telegraphed.

Next you'll tell me that using the keyboard rather than mouse clicking on things is an exploit too.