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1k armor vs 2k armor
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Valn✭✭✭✭✭Did someone really just post proof that the difference in protection between light and heavy is 4%? What are they thinking with these values? Please tell me this is an error.
No wonder every one is rolling robes
We think it might be a problem with the levels
My first test (the 4% less damage per hit one ) was against a V9 mob. I am level V12
My second test against V11 mobs, they hit 47% less damage per hit.
With the lower level veteran mobs, either the armor resistance isnt working, or the mob had high armor penetration.
I have a theory
The V9 mob has a minimum number it can hit, which is why my armor resistance looked to be useless. And when I took my armor off, it seems it can't damage me that much higher, possibly because my veteran level is higher.Edited by Valn on June 18, 2014 5:40AM0 -
Durham✭✭✭✭✭
✭Shield is only thing you need to tank with ... armor means little maybe 10% 15% difference from Light ... Light Armor resists are higher ...has regen , and reduction of spell cost....... it also allows for 10% crits...... bypasses resists ... You can also use heavy abilities like unstoppable without heavy lol ... Why wear heavy ... The mistake I made was thinking that a tank wears heavy armor why did I go into blacksmithing instead of cloth !!!!!
The only thing I miss with heavy is 20% reduction in blocking !!!!! POTIONS FOR THE WIN !!!!!PVP DEADWAIT
PVP The Unguildables1 -
Singular✭✭✭✭
Preferably with something other than the now standard response "We're looking into it, there might be a change of some kind sometime, you know, Soon(tm). Trust us and keep paying your your monthly fee while you wait."Wondering if @ZOS_GinaBruno or @ZOS_JessicaFolsom can chime in on this. Thanks >;)
Well, what else are they going to do? It's not possible to make instant bug fixes. They have to figure out what's causing the issue, then write the code, then test that, then put it in a patch.War, give me war, give me war.0 -
Sharee✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Ok I just tested this theory and @Valn is mostly correct.
I'm VR4, tested myself against equal VR4 spiders:- Full Heavy Armor (1840 armor), Naked (261 Armor) - it absolutely doesn't make any difference in Melee, I'm getting hit for the same amount
- Spell Damage on the other hand when I'm wearing armor I get hit for - 187 without armor (naked) - 267
Heavy Armor seems to be terribly broken.
So it might possibly be an issue with lower level veteran mobs. If 1840 armor and 261 armor have no difference with the hits you're receiving, then its broken
Or maybe the damage the spiders deal is not considered physical damage, and thus is checked against spell resistance and not armor. Just a thought (seeing as the armor makes absolutely no difference in this case, but it does make a difference in other tests posted in the thread)Edited by Sharee on June 18, 2014 5:42AM1 -
Singular✭✭✭✭Did someone really just post proof that the difference in protection between light and heavy is 4%? What are they thinking with these values? Please tell me this is an error.
No wonder every one is rolling robes
We think it might be a problem with the levels
My first test (the 4% less damage per hit one ) was against a V9 mob. I am level V12
My second test against V11 mobs, they hit 47% less damage per hit.
With the lower level veteran mobs, either the armor resistance isnt working, or the mob had high armor penetration.
I have a theory
The V9 mob has a minimum number it can hit, which is why my armor resistance looked to be useless. And when I took my armor off, it seems it can't damage me that much higher, possibly because my veteran level is higher.
If you're hypothesis is correct, that's silly end game construction. Mobs shouldn't work like that - we should be able steam roll lower level mobs. Obviously, not two levels lower, but definitely 5-10 or more.Edited by Singular on June 18, 2014 5:43AMWar, give me war, give me war.0 -
Animus0724✭✭✭Animus0724 wrote: »At 2227 armor getting attacked for 2254 damage, you only took 407 of that
At 917 armor getting attacked for 1796 damage, you only took 538 of that
Is this how you're supposed to read these charts? If thats the case, that 458 difference in damage alters your results by up to 30%
The 2227 and 1796 values are for current health.
This is about as consistent as you can make this kind of test -- use same mob with and without armor. It's possible you could try against different types of mobs, but it still gets the point across that armor is no better than paper in some situations at least.
One possibility is that first mob you tested registered its attack as spell damage so it was looking at spell resist instead of armor. (Heavy armor really should increase both more than it does, though...)
Ah I see, how bout getting a guildee from an opposing faction to meet you in cyrodiil and test one heavy attack against armor and non-armor.I take pride in being an incredibly smart dumb ass, or an incredibly dumb smart ass, either way I'm awesome.
-The Art Of Warfare (T.A.W.)0 -
p_tsakirisb16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭Hoarers at V3 area (Shadowfen) against V3 player in Heavy armour, are doing the same Light attack damage as V11 mobs against V9 player?
No wonder I hated the place. Some EP veteran areas are frustrating when the mobs spam 800 damage hidden blade while you are engaged to 2 more enemies. With 3000hp and 1800 AC you go down pretty quickly.
Hence I need to make a full set medium and start rolling around the floor.
Cydoriil PvP I do not have numbers, but the situation is pretty much way better. Maybe indeed the VR content has some ridiculous armour penetration buff.
Btw Anyone on EU from EP or DC here? We can discuss & organise a test if you wish. With various weapons, spells and armours. (light, medium, heavy) incl glyphs. Just pm me and can organise it.
Edited by p_tsakirisb16_ESO on June 18, 2014 5:58AM0 -
Mortosk✭✭✭✭And this boys and girls is why Heavy Armor is completely useless. Thanks for playing.
"Now I stand, the lion before the lambs and they do not fear. They can not fear." --Arthas Menethil (aka, The Lich King)4 -
Mortosk✭✭✭✭
I agree. And, NPC's that cast fire spells need to be seriously tuned. Scamps, Incendiaries, etc.
Ever fight a 3 pack of V7 scamps? All it takes is one of them to get a spell off and I lose 70% of my health almost instantly. This is with 2000+ spell resist. It's very difficult to stop 3 casters from nuking you all at the same time. One of them is going to get a spell off.
It's actually really funny getting my arse handed to me by a bunch of scamps. The devs obviously have a sadistic sense of humor."Now I stand, the lion before the lambs and they do not fear. They can not fear." --Arthas Menethil (aka, The Lich King)3 -
phaneub17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
I agree. And, NPC's that cast fire spells need to be seriously tuned. Scamps, Incendiaries, etc.
Ever fight a 3 pack of V7 scamps? All it takes is one of them to get a spell off and I lose 70% of my health almost instantly. This is with 2000+ spell resist. It's very difficult to stop 3 casters from nuking you all at the same time. One of them is going to get a spell off.
It's actually really funny getting my arse handed to me by a bunch of scamps. The devs obviously have a sadistic sense of humor.
Defensive Stance is great against casters it stuns them too allowing you time to recast before the next one, unfortunately it only reflects the basic attack that counts as spell damage. I've killed elite casters with it, while doing little to no damage of my own to them just let them reflect their own attacks.Edited by phaneub17_ESO on June 18, 2014 6:46AM0 -
nikolaj.lemcheb16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭I just went and tested where I am VR8 against VR6 mobs, my 1230s armor gave me 23% mitigation.2 -
nikolaj.lemcheb16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭Ever fight a 3 pack of V7 scamps? All it takes is one of them to get a spell off and I lose 70% of my health almost instantly. This is with 2000+ spell resist. It's very difficult to stop 3 casters from nuking you all at the same time. One of them is going to get a spell off.
It's actually really funny getting my arse handed to me by a bunch of scamps. The devs obviously have a sadistic sense of humor.
Dodge, dodge and dodge again. Every single of their high damage attacks get nullified if you dodge out of the red zone or at any time during their activation.Edited by nikolaj.lemcheb16_ESO on June 18, 2014 7:19AM2 -
Sharee✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭nikolaj.lemcheb16_ESO wrote: »I just went and tested where I am VR8 against VR6 mobs, my 1230s armor gave me 23% mitigation.
This is pretty much in line with what i thought before - 50 points of armor provide 1% of physical mitigation, with a cap of 50% mitigation @ 2500 armor. Cases where the numbers are different likely are cases where other factors intervened - either a level difference, or the damage not being physical.1 -
bugulu✭✭✭Should increase the armor cap to 3.5k - 4k and also make heavy armor have significant more armor. Up the values on damage mitigation for each armor point as well.
A light armor user should never be able to absorb damage as good as heavy armor.3 -
nikolaj.lemcheb16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭Should increase the armor cap to 3.5k - 4k and also make heavy armor have significant more armor. Up the values on damage mitigation for each armor point as well.
A light armor user should never be able to absorb damage as good as heavy armor.
I suggested some time ago that the softcap should be based on the type of armor you wear.
In my example light armor should give a soft cap of 100 per piece, medium 200 and heavy 300.
Then a full light armor guy would hit the softcap already at 700 while a full heavy would only hit it at 2100.
A person with 2 light and 5 heavy would hit the softcap at 1700.
It is such a simple change that would make heavy armor worth it again.
Edit: Of course the hardcap should be based on armor too, like 150, 300 and 450 per piece.Edited by nikolaj.lemcheb16_ESO on June 18, 2014 7:29AM0 -
Sharee✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭nikolaj.lemcheb16_ESO wrote: »Should increase the armor cap to 3.5k - 4k and also make heavy armor have significant more armor. Up the values on damage mitigation for each armor point as well.
A light armor user should never be able to absorb damage as good as heavy armor.
I suggested some time ago that the softcap should be based on the type of armor you wear.
In my example light armor should give a soft cap of 100 per piece, medium 200 and heavy 300.
Then a full light armor guy would hit the softcap already at 700 while a full heavy would only hit it at 2100.
A person with 2 light and 5 heavy would hit the softcap at 1700.
It is such a simple change that would make heavy armor worth it again.
Edit: Of course the hardcap should be based on armor too, like 150, 300 and 450 per piece.
You have to keep in mind tho that this would screw up some abilities that are intended to give large temporary boosts to armor.
A sorcerer using lightning form for example is supopsed to be very tanky by design. The balancing lies in the ability being expensive, and the protection temporary. If he had a cap at 700 armor, lightning form would become basically useless.1 -
nikolaj.lemcheb16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭nikolaj.lemcheb16_ESO wrote: »Should increase the armor cap to 3.5k - 4k and also make heavy armor have significant more armor. Up the values on damage mitigation for each armor point as well.
A light armor user should never be able to absorb damage as good as heavy armor.
I suggested some time ago that the softcap should be based on the type of armor you wear.
In my example light armor should give a soft cap of 100 per piece, medium 200 and heavy 300.
Then a full light armor guy would hit the softcap already at 700 while a full heavy would only hit it at 2100.
A person with 2 light and 5 heavy would hit the softcap at 1700.
It is such a simple change that would make heavy armor worth it again.
Edit: Of course the hardcap should be based on armor too, like 150, 300 and 450 per piece.
You have to keep in mind tho that this would screw up some abilities that are intended to give large temporary boosts to armor.
A sorcerer using lightning form for example is supopsed to be very tanky by design. The balancing lies in the ability being expensive, and the protection temporary. If he had a cap at 700 armor, lightning form would become basically useless.
There is something basically wrong with an ability that give a light cloth wearer better protection than heavy armor even for a short time while the reverse for a tank doing cloth wearer dps does not exist.
I have no problem with a sorc being forced to wear heavy armor to use that ability to the max, just as a templar is forced to wear cloth armor to make his dps class abilities work to the max.Edited by nikolaj.lemcheb16_ESO on June 18, 2014 7:37AM2 -
Sharee✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭nikolaj.lemcheb16_ESO wrote: »nikolaj.lemcheb16_ESO wrote: »Should increase the armor cap to 3.5k - 4k and also make heavy armor have significant more armor. Up the values on damage mitigation for each armor point as well.
A light armor user should never be able to absorb damage as good as heavy armor.
I suggested some time ago that the softcap should be based on the type of armor you wear.
In my example light armor should give a soft cap of 100 per piece, medium 200 and heavy 300.
Then a full light armor guy would hit the softcap already at 700 while a full heavy would only hit it at 2100.
A person with 2 light and 5 heavy would hit the softcap at 1700.
It is such a simple change that would make heavy armor worth it again.
Edit: Of course the hardcap should be based on armor too, like 150, 300 and 450 per piece.
You have to keep in mind tho that this would screw up some abilities that are intended to give large temporary boosts to armor.
A sorcerer using lightning form for example is supopsed to be very tanky by design. The balancing lies in the ability being expensive, and the protection temporary. If he had a cap at 700 armor, lightning form would become basically useless.
There is something basically wrong with an ability that give a light cloth wearer better protection than heavy armor even for a short time while the reverse for a tank doing cloth wearer dps does not exist.
Nonetheless, the ability clearly is supposed to do exactly that. Whether it is appropriate for sorcerers to have something like that is a different debate, and a matter of personal opinion.1 -
Zeeed✭✭✭well thats why i strugled to to git vr12 leveling with heavy armour and dw.. Cause heavy armour is plain *** and could be removed from the game1
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nikolaj.lemcheb16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭nikolaj.lemcheb16_ESO wrote: »nikolaj.lemcheb16_ESO wrote: »Should increase the armor cap to 3.5k - 4k and also make heavy armor have significant more armor. Up the values on damage mitigation for each armor point as well.
A light armor user should never be able to absorb damage as good as heavy armor.
I suggested some time ago that the softcap should be based on the type of armor you wear.
In my example light armor should give a soft cap of 100 per piece, medium 200 and heavy 300.
Then a full light armor guy would hit the softcap already at 700 while a full heavy would only hit it at 2100.
A person with 2 light and 5 heavy would hit the softcap at 1700.
It is such a simple change that would make heavy armor worth it again.
Edit: Of course the hardcap should be based on armor too, like 150, 300 and 450 per piece.
You have to keep in mind tho that this would screw up some abilities that are intended to give large temporary boosts to armor.
A sorcerer using lightning form for example is supopsed to be very tanky by design. The balancing lies in the ability being expensive, and the protection temporary. If he had a cap at 700 armor, lightning form would become basically useless.
There is something basically wrong with an ability that give a light cloth wearer better protection than heavy armor even for a short time while the reverse for a tank doing cloth wearer dps does not exist.
Nonetheless, the ability clearly is supposed to do exactly that. Whether it is appropriate for sorcerers to have something like that is a different debate, and a matter of personal opinion.
Heh anything that does something to fix the staff/light armor problem in the game is a good thing.
But if they did something like I suggest they should give out a free full skill respec to everyone.
They said they would outline what they are going to do with the stamina/magicka imbalance by the end of the week, I hope includes armor balance too, because it is at the core of the problem.0 -
Eylith✭✭✭Light armor need a nerf, heavy armor need love and MR/armor cap need to be up, IMO."Discuter avec un troll, c’est comme essayer de jouer aux échecs avec un pigeon. Tu as beau être très fort aux échecs, il arrive, renverse les pièces, chie sur l’échiquier et s’en va avec l’air supérieur comme s’il avait gagné." - Anonyme1 -
bugulu✭✭✭lolwut? Light armour doesn't need an armour nerf, it's not like vet mobs don't tear through light armour as well is it.
Agree, medium and heavy armor should be buffed up rather than nerfing light armor. There should be a significant difference between using light armor compared to medium and medium compared to heavy.
Edited by bugulu on June 18, 2014 9:04AM3 -
babylon✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I also think vet mobs (in vet areas) need their heat seeking spells and OP armour piercing nerfed.Edited by babylon on June 18, 2014 9:08AM1 -
Bashev✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I did a similar tests 3 days after the the early access. I was lvl 21-22 and I concluded that there is no point from armor. The only way to mitigate damage is by blocking. That is why I decided to wear light armor and to develop my cloth crafting skills. When I shared this with my guild-mates they all laughed at me and told me that I will change my mind in the higher levels. But I continued to play with cloth and shield. That was the second best decision that I made in the game. The best one is still that I rolled a DK.Because I can!1 -
Eylith✭✭✭DK V5 with resto staff + 5HA/2LA, and I exceed both MR and armor of 150 points. Something here is not right.
I misspoke, light armor doesn't need an armor nerf, but the passive are too powerfull, IMO.Edited by Eylith on June 18, 2014 9:27AM"Discuter avec un troll, c’est comme essayer de jouer aux échecs avec un pigeon. Tu as beau être très fort aux échecs, il arrive, renverse les pièces, chie sur l’échiquier et s’en va avec l’air supérieur comme s’il avait gagné." - Anonyme1 -
babylon✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭DK V5 with resto staff + 5HA/2LA, and I exceed both MR and armor of 150 points. Something here is not right.
I misspoke, light armor doesn't need an armor nerf, but the passive are too powerfull, IMO.
The problem is more one of we need a lot of dps to burn down the vet mobs before they destroy us, and stamina based skills don't output enough dps so that is part of what makes med armour suck, and heal regen and damage soaking isn't enough to withstand facetanking mobs if you run out of magicka as you slowly chip away at the mobs, so that is in part what makes heavy armour suck.
It isn't light armour passives that's too strong, it's vet mobs are too strong which makes other armour suck (damage soaking and regen not good enough/stam dps not enough).Edited by babylon on June 18, 2014 9:47AM2 -
ArRashid✭✭✭✭In ever sane game, heavy armor by itself provides about 40% physical dmg reduction, that can be stacked up even higher by other means.... just in ESO devs though it would be nice to cap player's armor at about 15-20% and then laugh at us being 2-hit in heavy armor...2