Animation canceling, exploit or playing as intended?

Adramelach · June 2014

This is silly. How is it an exploit? What's the alternative? For you that are calling it an exploit, let's run with that a moment...

So, in order to be an "upstanding player" and not "exploit" the game, let's think about how I have to behave. I'm in a battle, I'm trying to kill things as fast as I can, but I wouldn't want to be "bad" and exploit anything and be banned. So... I hit my light attack, and even though I know I could fire off that spell at the approaching troll, I dutifully wait, watching as the animation proceeds, and properly hitting the button to cast the spell only after I'm sure that animation is done and I see the shot go off.

Even if I die, I can rez at the wayshrine, confident and happy that although I may have had the opportunity to actually kill the thing had I cast used my skills and attacks faster, I'm proud and content because I had the self-control and honor to patiently allow all my animations to complete prior to requesting the next action.

Moreover, when I group up and hit that dungeon, and die much more quickly than I'd otherwise be doing, and even though my dps is way under what others have, I can proudly hold up my hand and say "nay... stay your anger, my comrades, for I am honorable, and shall not cast any spell, nor use any ability, before its time. You must wait, and be patient, and allow your spells and attacks to fully manifest, to fully age and express themselves, before moving to another, lest you preempt the proper timing and exploit the system!"

b_archaonpreeb18_ESO · June 2014

As intended.

Animation cancelling exists in many skill-based games and it's a mark of mastery. It takes time and effort to learn it and it gives due rewards. It's no different than correctly timing your blocks, dodges and interrupts.

Tankqull · June 2014

the problem is they won´t and can´t fix it as it is the result of inherent game decisions they have made. the only option of fixing it is by implementing GCDs wich as the puncturing stirke fiasco showed completly screws the player, as it aswell locks you from using your defensive options wich are the reason animation canceling is possible.
so they either get rid of their entire fighting concept switching to passive defense (xx% block-, parrychance) or officially tolerate animation canceling.
so better get used to it as it won´t change.

badmojo · June 2014

Adramelach wrote: »

This is silly. How is it an exploit? What's the alternative?

The alternative is they fix it and we all move on with our lives.

Why do you have to change anything? Just know that it's not intended to cancel your animations and still get full credit for the attack. Don't build your game around doing it, or do, I don't care. But, if you do build your game around it, please don't cry if/when they fix it.

badmojo · June 2014

This whole stigma about the term "exploit" has played out on the DayZ forums a million times over. In that game people consider looking around objects in third person view an exploit. That causes a lot of people to argue that it isn't an exploit. They get so upset and emotional over being told they are exploiting they become irrational and defensive. They start trying to justify it by saying everyone can do it, it takes more skill, & it's part of the game.

While those things are true, it's still not what the developer intended for their game, therefor it's (by definition) an exploit.

If you can point me towards a post by ZOS saying this is intended, I'll stop calling it an exploit. But, the only reply I've ever seen from them on this subject has been "We're looking into it.".

Ser Lobo · June 2014

Adramelach wrote: »

This is silly. How is it an exploit? What's the alternative? For you that are calling it an exploit, let's run with that a moment...

So, in order to be an "upstanding player" and not "exploit" the game, let's think about how I have to behave. I'm in a battle, I'm trying to kill things as fast as I can, but I wouldn't want to be "bad" and exploit anything and be banned. So... I hit my light attack, and even though I know I could fire off that spell at the approaching troll, I dutifully wait, watching as the animation proceeds, and properly hitting the button to cast the spell only after I'm sure that animation is done and I see the shot go off.

So your argument is that, if you know you can animation cancel and still receive full damage, you should, right?

Not to poke fun at all. I realize full and well that this is a different mindset between myself and many others. There are many bugs or imbalances I've intentionally avoided, that others literally got upset at me because it made me not one of them.

Bashing is one. Yep, I could maximize my bash output on my templar. Chose not to, because I didn't feel it was going right. Didn't point out others who did it, just waited for the change. Loe and behold, the topic gets brought up in a gaming group, and they call me a hall monitor.

For some, those who intentionally bend or push against the rules are acceptable, but those who follow their own code are somehow untrustworthy. Like hanging around with a bunch of potheads.

Hell no I ain't going to tell the cops, but you still can't trust me, cause I don't smoke myself.

xanikk999 · June 2014

cubansyrusb16_ESO wrote: »

badmojo wrote: »

Worstluck wrote: »

From my understanding, it is not an exploit, but it is not intended to work that way.

Is that not the very definition of an exploit?

In video games, an exploit (colloquially sploit) is the use of a bug or glitches, game system, rates, hit boxes, or speed, etc. by a player to their advantage in a manner not intended by the game's designers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exploit_(video_gaming)

You guys can keep saying it's not an exploit, but it is. What it isn't, is cheating. Everyone should be doing this until they fix it, because if you don't you'll be at the mercy of those who do. Just don't kid yourself, it's totally an exploit.

Never link Wikipedia to prove anything, it's like linking Urban Dictionary for the real meanings of words.

Here is how you do it.

Exploit : Make use of (a situation) in a way considered unfair or underhand.
To make use of ( a situation ) capitalize on and/or benefit from (a situation) which is unintended.

Actually wikipedia is a great source when used correctly. Sure you are correct in your comparison if you are quoting a wikipedia page that does not cite its sources and/or uses non-credible sources.

However when a page is cited for every claim with credible sources its absolutely no different than any other secondary source that you assume to be factual.

I wish people would realize this. It doesn't take a genius to understand which pages are unreliable and which are.

Adramelach · June 2014

ruze84b14_ESO wrote: »

Adramelach wrote: »

This is silly. How is it an exploit? What's the alternative? For you that are calling it an exploit, let's run with that a moment...

So, in order to be an "upstanding player" and not "exploit" the game, let's think about how I have to behave. I'm in a battle, I'm trying to kill things as fast as I can, but I wouldn't want to be "bad" and exploit anything and be banned. So... I hit my light attack, and even though I know I could fire off that spell at the approaching troll, I dutifully wait, watching as the animation proceeds, and properly hitting the button to cast the spell only after I'm sure that animation is done and I see the shot go off.

So your argument is that, if you know you can animation cancel and still receive full damage, you should, right?

Absolutely. And just as others have said, if they in the future choose to alter things so you can't do that anymore, and explain it was never intended, you shrug, rework your "weaving" or "rotations" or whatever you call it, and you adapt.

In this particular case, it's even more of a grey area, because this particular "exploit" can happen entirely unintentionally. In the heat of battle, it's not only likely, but I'd guess almost a given that players mashing skills and attacks while kiting around, trying to get as much damage downrange as possible in the least time, will be be cancelling animations and "exploiting" this whether they realize it or not, even if they have never heard of it, and don't even realize they are doing it.

So, now you have to draw a very fine line between several classes of people... those that know about it and strategize how to best take advantage of it, those who know of its existence but sort of shrug and move on, and if they happen to mash a couple of buttons quickly and it cancels, great, but they're not really focused on it, those that have no idea it even happens, but do it anyway just in the course of hitting buttons, etc... who do you "ban"? Who do you even accuse of "immoral" behavior? Are the only "respectable" players now the ones that either have no idea it's happening at all, or the ones that know about it and judiciously and with precise control and timing, deliberately ensure it never happens? Are all others' souls blackened by their tacit or explicit acceptance of such a thing?

I think it just gets silly, as I said. If the controls allow for it, use it or not, as you like, and if and when they alter that control behavior, then re-think your strategy and move along.

Ser Lobo · June 2014

@Adramelach, I agree, it gets silly. Those who unintentionally use a game mechanic in a way it's not intended, aren't exploiting. Those that intentionally do so, are. It doesn't take much more than that.

My own personal complaint centers, not on the accidental players, or even the intentional but will adapt exploiters, but the players who invariably have convinced themselves that it's a legit mechanic, and then come to the forum afterwards complaining that ZOS is ruining their playstyle, and that they are now broken/ruined/useless.

This is predictable. It will happen. Not much we can do about it. Still irksome.

aleister · June 2014

Exploit or not, it's not really that big of a deal. Here's a video that explains it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eTb2YpuRsP4

Tankqull · June 2014

badmojo wrote: »

If you can point me towards a post by ZOS saying this is intended, I'll stop calling it an exploit. But, the only reply I've ever seen from them on this subject has been "We're looking into it.".

i cant but the functionaltiy of animation canceling is working as intended as it allows players to utilize defensiv abilities. but the developers havent had in mind that the same effect can be used to maximize your dps wich was an inconsiderate side effect. fixing it will screw the entire fighting philosophy or will need alot of recoding - recoding will cost alot, and with the current player progression will not happen, and i hope the will not screw the fighting mechanic with e.g. GCDs as it will make fight awefull (see templars puncturing strike in 1.1.2)

Lyall84 · June 2014

cubansyrusb16_ESO wrote: »

badmojo wrote: »

Worstluck wrote: »

From my understanding, it is not an exploit, but it is not intended to work that way.

Is that not the very definition of an exploit?

In video games, an exploit (colloquially sploit) is the use of a bug or glitches, game system, rates, hit boxes, or speed, etc. by a player to their advantage in a manner not intended by the game's designers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exploit_(video_gaming)

You guys can keep saying it's not an exploit, but it is. What it isn't, is cheating. Everyone should be doing this until they fix it, because if you don't you'll be at the mercy of those who do. Just don't kid yourself, it's totally an exploit.

Never link Wikipedia to prove anything, it's like linking Urban Dictionary for the real meanings of words.

Here is how you do it.

Exploit : Make use of (a situation) in a way considered unfair or underhand.
To make use of ( a situation ) capitalize on and/or benefit from (a situation) which is unintended.

Bingo. This one understands.

Lyall84 · June 2014

badmojo wrote: »

This whole stigma about the term "exploit" has played out on the DayZ forums a million times over. In that game people consider looking around objects in third person view an exploit. That causes a lot of people to argue that it isn't an exploit. They get so upset and emotional over being told they are exploiting they become irrational and defensive. They start trying to justify it by saying everyone can do it, it takes more skill, & it's part of the game.

While those things are true, it's still not what the developer intended for their game, therefor it's (by definition) an exploit.

If you can point me towards a post by ZOS saying this is intended, I'll stop calling it an exploit. But, the only reply I've ever seen from them on this subject has been "We're looking into it.".

This one also understands.

Aeradon · June 2014

xanikk999 wrote: »

cubansyrusb16_ESO wrote: »

badmojo wrote: »

Worstluck wrote: »

From my understanding, it is not an exploit, but it is not intended to work that way.

Is that not the very definition of an exploit?

In video games, an exploit (colloquially sploit) is the use of a bug or glitches, game system, rates, hit boxes, or speed, etc. by a player to their advantage in a manner not intended by the game's designers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exploit_(video_gaming)

You guys can keep saying it's not an exploit, but it is. What it isn't, is cheating. Everyone should be doing this until they fix it, because if you don't you'll be at the mercy of those who do. Just don't kid yourself, it's totally an exploit.

Never link Wikipedia to prove anything, it's like linking Urban Dictionary for the real meanings of words.

Here is how you do it.

Exploit : Make use of (a situation) in a way considered unfair or underhand.
To make use of ( a situation ) capitalize on and/or benefit from (a situation) which is unintended.

Actually wikipedia is a great source when used correctly. Sure you are correct in your comparison if you are quoting a wikipedia page that does not cite its sources and/or uses non-credible sources.

However when a page is cited for every claim with credible sources its absolutely no different than any other secondary source that you assume to be factual.

I wish people would realize this. It doesn't take a genius to understand which pages are unreliable and which are.

Which makes much more sense if one would cite the article references provided by Wikipedia rather than the Wikipedia article itself. I believe the article serves as a summary but the real stuff that needs to be read are always below within the references. Some Wikipedia citations are not trustworthy as well.

Anyways, I personally do feel that it's an exploit. Simply because an exploit by definition is to make full use of and derive benefit of a resource. Is it an unfair and malicious exploit? No, I do not think so. As of now, it's a fairly common used way to gain DPS in most action based games and it only rewards those with the ability to perform it correctly. Now one may argue that the player gains more advantage to those who does not animation cancel. Yes they do, via PVP.

PVP is a competition gamers, and the elite gamers who has more experience and better response time wins. Is animation cancelling response based? Yes. Does animation cancelling shows one has more research and is more experienced in gaming? Yes. So it rewards them, in a way real life rewards salesman. Would you rather send emails to your prospects, sit and wait for the response? Or do you send an email and make a move to visit their household to demonstrate the product at the same time? Do you think the customer should reward the one who made more effort?

Note that anyone would be able to animation cancel and had done it many times without noticing it themselves. Casting a skill after attacking, or blocking an incoming spell during an attack, all these are fairly common phenomenons.

To give you an example,
Halfway through the swing of your sword, you notice enemy charging up for a block-able attack, do you raise your shield? If so, do you wish for the game to restrict you when you clearly were fast enough to react?

The block, spell casting and interrupt is designed to react to player responsiveness. It rewards players with high responsiveness. Animation cancelling takes advantage of player responsiveness and rewards players who could send more sequenced commands in a short amount of time.

Button spamming could cancel animations, but does not do it as well as sending well sequenced commands. Attack>Spell>Block/Interrupt rinse and repeat is done by more experienced players and it rewards them for being capable of doing so in the midst of chaos. These players will still have to dodge, move consistently and take care of their team mates and resources with potions and heals.

Do note that resources would burn up faster when you constantly animation cancel, in a long run, the burst of DPS is as long as you have resources. With resources being the bottleneck and driver, it seems to me as a fair play.

Player A and B only has Magicka based spells.

Player A has 1000 Magicka. He casts his spells frequently. He casts 5 spells that deals damage worthy of 1000 Magicka. His Magicka depletes after casting spells and ends up attacking normally to wait for his Magicka to be replenished.

Player B has 1000 Magicka. He casts his spells as fast as possible, and also makes sure he hits the enemy before casting each of his spells, and also blocks to cancel his spell animation. He casts 5 spells and 5 attacks that deals damage worthy of 1000 Magicka with 5*Weapon Attack. His Magicka depletes within 2-3 seconds and ends up attacking and block/interrupt to cancel the attack animation while waiting for his Magicka to be replenished. This could deplete his stamina if B used interrupt, and could put him in danger of not being able to block. But his stamina is well used to provide another source of DPS.

In the case above, the additional weapon attacks in between of spells increases DPS, also note that B is able to resume normal attacks faster than A. The weapon attacks becomes a well utilised factor of DPS. Is everyone capable of weapon attacks? Yes. Should people alternate between their source of damage to better utilise it? Yes. Is it harder than clicking and or button spamming? Yes.

Does B get to dish out more damage using his 1000 Magicka as compared to A? No. The only difference is B weaves the element of weapon attack into his sequence of commands.

Everybody could do it. It's a matter of choice.

You can choose to hold on to your horse's sprint forever; one could also unmount, cast Maneuver, and mount again, tap sprint instead of holding it, rinse and repeat, it's faster than holding sprint. Do all players do it?

Edit: Do not forget that any button on your keyboard and mouse has a life cycle of intended amount of clicks. These players most likely have to change their mouse and keyboard more often than average users too.

Tactile and usual micro switches intended lifetime is >5,000,000 operations.
Ultra Durable micro switches intended lifetime is >20,000,000 operations

Average gamers are exploiting their mouse too. One mouse could play more games than an elite gamer! And it's a real life exploit!

If you want to read more on mouse clicks.
http://www.globalsources.com/gsol/I/Tactile-switch/p/sm/1052792760.htm#1052792760
http://www.taiwantrade.com.tw/EP/zippy/products-detail/en_US/621194/Gaming_Mouse,_20_millions_Click,_ZIPPY_DF3_Micro_Switch_Inside/
http://www.ebay.com/itm/2X-OMRON-Micro-Switch-Microswitch-D2FC-F-7N-for-APPLE-RAZER-Logitech-MS-Mouse-/270921021500

steveb16_ESO46 · June 2014

Cheating pure and simple whatever fancy names people come up for it and no matter what 'skill' it takes. It's exploiting.

Sleepydan · June 2014

If you can do something, anything really and you can assume it's there intentionally until the developers change it to otherwise.

steveb16_ESO46 · June 2014

badmojo wrote: »

Worstluck wrote: »

From my understanding, it is not an exploit, but it is not intended to work that way.

Is that not the very definition of an exploit?

Of course it is. By it's very definition as you say.

cfriedman71ub17_ESO · June 2014

Can't disagree more emphatically with those that think this is an exploit. This mechanic has been discussed since before launch. I have yet to see a dev state that it wasn't intended. I have seen the devs state that they weren't going to put in cool downs, that resource management was gonna determine skill usage. this mechanic still uses same amount of resources, it just bursts the damage quicker. Until a dev says that it wasn't intended and it is taking advantage of a bug, it isn't an exploit.

Hilgara · June 2014

Blud wrote: »

It probably explains getting one-shot by a Sorc in Cyrodiil.

How can you get one shotted with animation cancelling? by definition is requires at least two shots. It's only really any use on long fights and most PvP fights don't last long enough for it to make a difference.

Hilgara · June 2014

Its a mechanic that has always been in the game. If it was unintended I think they would have fixed it by now. I agree that if you are using macros to do this then its cheating but just weaving light attacks in using button presses is actually quite difficult to do. it's not giving people an easy option to increase damage. Its a skill that needs to be learned. Just like having to learn an effective rotation.

p_tsakirisb16_ESO · June 2014

It's an exploit and should be fixed.
If you cancel an ability or an attack it should be cancelled.

Not having it's time to execute shortened and stacked with other attacks.

SteveCampsOut · June 2014

ruze84b14_ESO wrote: »

For some, those who intentionally bend or push against the rules are acceptable, but those who follow their own code are somehow untrustworthy. Like hanging around with a bunch of potheads.

Hell no I ain't going to tell the cops, but you still can't trust me, cause I don't smoke myself.

You were me in a past life weren't you!

Rylana · June 2014

Despite those who are trying to claim otherwise in this thread (and hilariously defending it as some kind of "skill" based thing....)

Animations and channels are designed as such to force a slowdown in spamming of very high damage/benefit abilities. Its a soft cooldown so to speak, or in other terms a cooldown disguised as something else.

Animation canceling is bypassing this intended mechanic. Therefore,

Its an exploit, and if you are using it, you are an exploiter. Plain and simple.

next thread please.

badmojo · June 2014

I decided to test it out a bit with that Tamriel Foundry Combat mod enabled. My favorite ability Steel Tornado consists of my character spinning around like a figure skater and throwing daggers in every direction. After about 30seconds I had it down to the point where my character didn't even move from normal fighting stance, but blades still come flying out none the less.

I've seen it happen before, but I didn't know it was this easy to do, and not just that but it's a required skill if you want to be competitive in PVP. I'm sure I've done it with all my other skills because I'm the type to mash buttons. The thing is, with no damage readouts(which I like) you don't even notice its happening.

I don't think it takes much skill to pull off and frankly looks horrible. I feel like a game starts to suck when you can't watch what's happening on screen and get the full picture. If animations are being skipped but damage isn't, that's not intuitive to the player.

Where do we go from here? A loading screen with the message "Don't trust what you see in combat, masters of illusion can perform any number of feats in the blink of an eye."? I sure hope not.

Fix it ZOS, and do it yesterday!

Mortosk · June 2014

daneyulebub17_ESO wrote: »

Nah. People think animation is a cool down. It's not. It's animation. If they wanted cool down, they should put it in.

They might yet do that, but until they do, it's not an exploit. It's adept usage of the play mechanics.

The day they force you to watch every animation before you use another skill is the day this game dies.

It's already kinda messed up especially with Templar skills like Biting Jabs and Crescent Sweep, and sometimes even Puncture (1H/Shield skill) seems to make me wait before casting it.

Sometimes you can cast a skill right away, and other times a GCD like delay is imposed. You have to figure out the correct rhythm in order to get past it. It's very clunky.

Rylana · June 2014

Mortosk wrote: »

daneyulebub17_ESO wrote: »

Nah. People think animation is a cool down. It's not. It's animation. If they wanted cool down, they should put it in.

They might yet do that, but until they do, it's not an exploit. It's adept usage of the play mechanics.

The day they force you to watch every animation before you use another skill is the day this game dies.

It's already kinda messed up especially with Templar skills like Biting Jabs and Crescent Sweep, and sometimes even Puncture (1H/Shield skill) seems to make me wait before casting it.

Sometimes you can cast a skill right away, and other times a GCD like delay is imposed. You have to figure out the correct rhythm in order to get past it. It's very clunky.

What is skill then?

Knowing your own characters rhythm and mastering it to be amazing, or facerolling three keys to "win" because of an exploit?

LMB, 1, RMB over and over isnt exactly skill

Mortosk · June 2014

Rylana wrote: »

Mortosk wrote: »

daneyulebub17_ESO wrote: »

Nah. People think animation is a cool down. It's not. It's animation. If they wanted cool down, they should put it in.

They might yet do that, but until they do, it's not an exploit. It's adept usage of the play mechanics.

The day they force you to watch every animation before you use another skill is the day this game dies.

It's already kinda messed up especially with Templar skills like Biting Jabs and Crescent Sweep, and sometimes even Puncture (1H/Shield skill) seems to make me wait before casting it.

Sometimes you can cast a skill right away, and other times a GCD like delay is imposed. You have to figure out the correct rhythm in order to get past it. It's very clunky.

What is skill then?

Knowing your own characters rhythm and mastering it to be amazing, or facerolling three keys to "win" because of an exploit?

LMB, 1, RMB over and over isnt exactly skill

You seem angry about something. Not sure what you are on about.

Alazarz · June 2014

Wow really? We are literally talking about using a skill and then another quickly thereafter. It just so happens to cancel the previous animation... So you're saying I should "play the game right" and wait until the animation is done before I allow myself to cast another ability, because doing otherwise is wrong? >> LMAO

Well, tell ZOS to put the next ability I use in a que until the previous one's animation is done... it's not my fault and I'm also not intending to exploit anything... I just want to cast the next ability. Am I a bad guy because of this? No!

Kind Regards,
David

Artis · June 2014

Fix it. There should be no such thing.

fyendiarb16_ESO · June 2014

Alazarz wrote: »

Wow really? We are literally talking about using a skill and then another quickly thereafter. It just so happens to cancel the previous animation... So you're saying I should "play the game right" and wait until the animation is done before I allow myself to cast another ability, because doing otherwise is wrong? >> LMAO

Well, tell ZOS to put the next ability I use in a que until the previous one's animation is done... it's not my fault and I'm also not intending to exploit anything... I just want to cast the next ability. Am I a bad guy because of this? No!

Kind Regards,
David

I started this topic not to cast any blame on those that use it since we all do at one time or another. You can use an exploit without any wrong intentions and in fact currently you are gimping yourself if you don't use it.

However the reason I started this is because I wonder if it was intended to work this way. An exploit is nothing more than the use of an unintended feature to gain benefit you would not get if the game would work as intended, so again no blaming from me here towards the players. An exploit is not the same as a cheat, although it sometimes is, however I do not believe it is in this case.

Some things have been mentioned in this thread that make sense and some a bit less. For instance when you do a certain attack with a longer animation and you see you are about to get hit hard, you need to be able to cancel the animation to block it. But should the cancelled animation in such a case still do the full damage? I think it should not.

Forced waiting for an animation to finish can make the game a lot slower and for some tedious to play. I don't think this should be the standard for all animations either, just that when you cancel one, the damage should either be lost completely or more ideally partly depending on how fast you canceled it.

That way animation cancelling becomes a choice with both an upside (increased defense) and a downside (lower damage from the cancelled attack). It would work as intended and no longer an exploit. At least in my opinion, unless of course the way it works now is already as intended by the devs.

Also hectic button mashing would decrease your damage output because you would be cancelling far more than you want and thus do a lot less damage than if you would play controlled. So in the end this would increase the skill required to max out your damage, I think more than animation cancelling does.

Anyway, just my two cents worth.

Let's not throw blame at eachother, but think of whether or not this is intended and fine or unintended and thus an exploit that needs fixing and most of all if it needs fixing...how.