Should AOEs be as dominant as they are?

Nooblet

I think the best thing they could do for the AoE game.. is have a reason to spread out(not sure what exactly to encourage that). In DAoC, if you were close to someone else, you were far more likely to take an AoE mez, or root etc. Which not only make it easier to CC, it also made it easier to interrupt with hard interrupts. In ESO, with the targeting system, AoE caps, healing mechanics, No hard interrupts(and mostly instant abilities), etc.. they all promote stacking, which really takes away the depth of PvP imo.

Possible things could be :
add AoE debuffs of some sort that have no cap.
increase AoE cap to 15ish(or none) .. this wouldnt be enough by itself.
have more ranged AoE dps spells(that can hit more than 6)

I don't really know the best answer. But something needs to be done to promote strategically spreading out and positioning over stacking in a ball.

Xsorus

Nooblet wrote: »

I think the best thing they could do for the AoE game.. is have a reason to spread out(not sure what exactly to encourage that). In DAoC, if you were close to someone else, you were far more likely to take an AoE mez, or root etc. Which not only make it easier to CC, it also made it easier to interrupt with hard interrupts. In ESO, with the targeting system, AoE caps, healing mechanics, No hard interrupts(and mostly instant abilities), etc.. they all promote stacking, which really takes away the depth of PvP imo.

Possible things could be :
add AoE debuffs of some sort that have no cap.
increase AoE cap to 15ish(or none) .. this wouldnt be enough by itself.
have more ranged AoE dps spells(that can hit more than 6)

I don't really know the best answer. But something needs to be done to promote strategically spreading out over stacking in a ball.

A lot of people really don't get how stupid AoE caps are, they're pissed about Caltrops right now letting people avoid the Siege damage in this game, Wait till they start facing large zergs/groups running multiple Replenishing Barriers, and their Siege doing nothing then...

The punishment for stacking in any game should always be the risk of dying to AoE.... AoE caps pretty much insure this will never be the case.

Imperator_Clydus

NordJitsu wrote: »

I think you're exaggerating how homogenous strategies are and also lumping in some odd ones....Bolt Escape is not an AoE.

I also think you're mistaken in thinking that single target is not just as powerful (or more powerful) than AoE. Get a group of single target DPS. You only need like 6. Now get them in TS and have one person calling targets with either Back Lash or Quick Siphon. Watch how fast stuff melts.

AoE is under powered right now. It should be hitting harder IMO. Especially ground based AoEs like Wall of Lightning and Lightning Pool (the PBAoE's are pretty much fine as is.) Standing in a pool of fire/lightning/ice should be punishing. You should have to move out of it. If you get rooted in that pool, you should have to dodge.

Right now those skills barely tickle.

I'd just like clarify that Bolt Escape itself is not an AOE, but the morph that is an AOE stun when you use it is. This is a very popular tool, besides dark talons, to immobilize a large amount of players in order to quickly burn them to the ground.

We aren't discussing simple AOEs that can easily be avoided. We are discussing primarily abilities such as impulse, which are instant and cannot be avoided. Whatever you may believe, I think it's foolish to say AOE is underpowered when multiple players stacking the same AOEs can melt 50+ players in a matter of seconds. That doesn't seem underpowered to me.

Single target is one thing as players have to focus fire and burn down those individual players. AOEs are burning down entire large groups within a matter of seconds without the need of focusing fire. The AOE bomb group just follows the train and keeps the AOEs constant.

popatiberiuoneb18_ESO

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Oh look, The OP now thinks AOE's are to powerful, and wants to remove that as well.....For someone who claims he loved DAOC, you sure do want to remove everything about this game that was similar to DAOC.

We already have Matt Firor doing that, we don't need anymore suggestions on how to screw up the game more.

Just becouse he was on the DAOC staff doesnt mean the good features that turned DAOC into what it was belong to him entirely, i dont see much DAOC in this game so i can think of 2 things:

1. Matt doesnt have a clue about what he is doing
or
2. Matt doesnt have enough decisional power
or
3. Matt doesnt care (or has other priorities) about creating a good PvP environment

Doesnt even matter wich one it is, his reputation is ruined in my book

All in all i'm preaty sure that if ZoS employs the janitor from Blizzard ESO will not turn into a WoW clone...hopefully!

Nijjion

@popatiberiuoneb18_ESO Have to agree has to be one of those... though I would bet he didn't do much in DAoC side but that's hard to tell... He was Mark Jacobs right hand man which has more of a grasp than Matt does... I have big hopes for Camelot Unchained... he will make it a lot more DAoC like from unique classes and to learn from his mistakes of WaR (main problem was 2 realms and 1vs1 is never a RvR type PvP in my mind... has to be 1vs1vs1 for true RvR )



@Imperator_Clydus I figured out the biggest counter to AoE... You spread out.

I find it so funny that the whole zerg stands on the flag while capping when the whole place gives you credit. You spread out a AoE group has no chance.
Granted keeps are harder to spread out but then all it boils down to is skill and effort. If 5 people can kill 50... good on them. Would you expect a top football team to have 1 leg amputated because they are better skilled than another team?

popatiberiuoneb18_ESO

Nijjion wrote: »

@popatiberiuoneb18_ESO Have to agree has to be one of those... though I would bet he didn't do much in DAoC side but that's hard to tell... He was Mark Jacobs right hand man which has more of a grasp than Matt does... I have big hopes for Camelot Unchained... he will make it a lot more DAoC like from unique classes and to learn from his mistakes of WaR (main problem was 2 realms and 1vs1 is never a RvR type PvP in my mind... has to be 1vs1vs1 for true RvR )
...

Unfortunately that wont happen anytime soon and i'm afraid to get my hopes up...if it doese happen to be even half as good as they claim its going to draw all the PvP crowd and turn the ESO PvP joke into a bad memory

babanovac

Nijjion wrote: »

I figured out the biggest counter to AoE... You spread out.

I find it so funny that the whole zerg stands on the flag while capping when the whole place gives you credit. You spread out a AoE group has no chance.

Actually the solution is exactly the opposite. To counter AoE, you stack up on top of your group leader. Since AoE has a cap of 6 targets, only 6 people will be hit. And since you are stacked up, all heals will heal those 6 people getting hit who are now very close to every healer in the group.

babanovac

Nijjion wrote: »

@popatiberiuoneb18_ESO Have to agree has to be one of those... though I would bet he didn't do much in DAoC side but that's hard to tell... He was Mark Jacobs right hand man which has more of a grasp than Matt does... I have big hopes for Camelot Unchained... he will make it a lot more DAoC like from unique classes and to learn from his mistakes of WaR (main problem was 2 realms and 1vs1 is never a RvR type PvP in my mind... has to be 1vs1vs1 for true RvR )

Mark Jacobs proved with Warhammer that he has no idea why DAoC was successful. I'm pretty sure that all these devs simply "don't get it" and the success of their previous games was not due to some insight on their part, but to pure luck.

popatiberiuoneb18_ESO

babanovac wrote: »

Nijjion wrote: »

@popatiberiuoneb18_ESO Have to agree has to be one of those... though I would bet he didn't do much in DAoC side but that's hard to tell... He was Mark Jacobs right hand man which has more of a grasp than Matt does... I have big hopes for Camelot Unchained... he will make it a lot more DAoC like from unique classes and to learn from his mistakes of WaR (main problem was 2 realms and 1vs1 is never a RvR type PvP in my mind... has to be 1vs1vs1 for true RvR )

Mark Jacobs proved with Warhammer that he has no idea why DAoC was successful. I'm pretty sure that all these devs simply "don't get it" and the success of their previous games was not due to some insight on their part, but to pure luck.

People evolve, im sure he is smart enough to learn from his mistakes. I will definatly give Camelot Unchained a try, if it proves to be a fail then i'll just have to find a different hobby..like go outiside..and see the yellow glowy thingy, how is it called again?

Aimelin

Imperator_Clydus wrote: »

NordJitsu wrote: »

I think you're exaggerating how homogenous strategies are and also lumping in some odd ones....Bolt Escape is not an AoE.

I also think you're mistaken in thinking that single target is not just as powerful (or more powerful) than AoE. Get a group of single target DPS. You only need like 6. Now get them in TS and have one person calling targets with either Back Lash or Quick Siphon. Watch how fast stuff melts.

AoE is under powered right now. It should be hitting harder IMO. Especially ground based AoEs like Wall of Lightning and Lightning Pool (the PBAoE's are pretty much fine as is.) Standing in a pool of fire/lightning/ice should be punishing. You should have to move out of it. If you get rooted in that pool, you should have to dodge.

Right now those skills barely tickle.

I'd just like clarify that Bolt Escape itself is not an AOE, but the morph that is an AOE stun when you use it is. This is a very popular tool, besides dark talons, to immobilize a large amount of players in order to quickly burn them to the ground.

We aren't discussing simple AOEs that can easily be avoided. We are discussing primarily abilities such as impulse, which are instant and cannot be avoided. Whatever you may believe, I think it's foolish to say AOE is underpowered when multiple players stacking the same AOEs can melt 50+ players in a matter of seconds. That doesn't seem underpowered to me.

Single target is one thing as players have to focus fire and burn down those individual players. AOEs are burning down entire large groups within a matter of seconds without the need of focusing fire. The AOE bomb group just follows the train and keeps the AOEs constant.

I'm pretty sure you have sorcs in your grp, so if they get stunned by a bolt escape, cc break, and make your sorcs stun them, if you get rooted, dodge roll out of it, but then you'll say, oh they're all blocking while spamming impulse, well you have block too ....

i suggest what someone else suggested, try to do it yourself with a small grp of 5 or 8 and take on a zerg, see how well you do

Nijjion

babanovac wrote: »

Nijjion wrote: »

I figured out the biggest counter to AoE... You spread out.

I find it so funny that the whole zerg stands on the flag while capping when the whole place gives you credit. You spread out a AoE group has no chance.

Actually the solution is exactly the opposite. To counter AoE, you stack up on top of your group leader. Since AoE has a cap of 6 targets, only 6 people will be hit. And since you are stacked up, all heals will heal those 6 people getting hit who are now very close to every healer in the group.

No *** Sherlock, we all know that but we are talking when there are no caps. 6 target cap shouldn't even be in the game that's the whole *** point.

I see it as a bug really it just seems weird it has to be a bug /s

babanovac wrote: »

Mark Jacobs proved with Warhammer that he has no idea why DAoC was successful. I'm pretty sure that all these devs simply "don't get it" and the success of their previous games was not due to some insight on their part, but to pure luck.

We already know the problem of WAR and that it was 1vs1 and not 1vs1vs1, when 1 realm dominated it was domination... with 1vs1vs1 both can team up against the dominate realm and fight back... WAR didn't have this.

Also the keeps and objectives gave too many points even if it was undefended... don't think he will make the same mistakes again.

Though granted we might never see a PvP game as good as DAoC again because the gamers are different today than back then. Lots of things from attitude/mentality and entitlement of gamers today is so high and wrong could be a problem as well.

galiumb16_ESO

Imperator_Clydus strikes again in his never ending struggle to ensure that ESO becomes GW2. Not sure why you do not just go play GW2 to be honest. Zergs are favored and rewarded in every conceivable way in GW2, which seems to be what you want.

Smogg

One of the things I love about Elder Scrolls is the visual look of the PVP battles. Siege engines lined up. Close combat and ranged fighting all over ect.
But yes, the tight raids with everyone on the leader are becoming more dominant and in my opinion it looks unnatural, wrong and non-intuitive. I would love to see something done to discourage this behaviour.

The absolutely best way would be to start out by removing the aoe cap. If you can hit 30 players at once with a single AOE, it is simply too dangerous to bundle up like that. A side effect would be that holding choke points would be easier. Now, I wont judge if that is good or bad, but yeah, I do hope some condideration will be given to which dynamics are desired in pvp and which are not and that the correct kind of adjustments to the game are made.

Another suggestion to nerf AoE further might impact the stacking tactic, but it would not adress the root of the tactic, only force them to change some of the skills used within the stack. In turn it would make it even harder to deal with the stacked raid.

Mendoze

Balancing AOE damage might prove to be a hard task. In 1 vs. 1 AOE skills are already poor, and if their usefulness in group combat is nerfed, what's the point to have such abilities? As far as I understand, single target damage is meant for small scale and AOE in large scale battles. If devs find some fine solution to this, I'm all for that, but just blank nerf for AOE sounds like a bad idea. And to be honest, nerfing AOE won't fix anything, because if AOE gets nerfed, then people are just crying a nerf in melee vs. ranged or something that does not suit their own playstyle.

popatiberiuoneb18_ESO

Nijjion wrote: »

babanovac wrote: »

Nijjion wrote: »

I figured out the biggest counter to AoE... You spread out.

I find it so funny that the whole zerg stands on the flag while capping when the whole place gives you credit. You spread out a AoE group has no chance.

Actually the solution is exactly the opposite. To counter AoE, you stack up on top of your group leader. Since AoE has a cap of 6 targets, only 6 people will be hit. And since you are stacked up, all heals will heal those 6 people getting hit who are now very close to every healer in the group.

No *** Sherlock, we all know that but we are talking when there are no caps. 6 target cap shouldn't even be in the game that's the whole *** point.

I see it as a bug really it just seems weird it has to be a bug /s

babanovac wrote: »

Mark Jacobs proved with Warhammer that he has no idea why DAoC was successful. I'm pretty sure that all these devs simply "don't get it" and the success of their previous games was not due to some insight on their part, but to pure luck.

We already know the problem of WAR and that it was 1vs1 and not 1vs1vs1, when 1 realm dominated it was domination... with 1vs1vs1 both can team up against the dominate realm and fight back... WAR didn't have this.

Also the keeps and objectives gave too many points even if it was undefended... don't think he will make the same mistakes again.

Though granted we might never see a PvP game as good as DAoC again because the gamers are different today than back then. Lots of things from attitude/mentality and entitlement of gamers today is so high and wrong could be a problem as well.

You realize that many of the gamers that were loyal to DAOC for over 10 years stil play right? They might play less often but the sub keeps getting payed. Make something at least as good as DAOC and i guarantee you that it is going to get a larger playerbase then DAOC ever had, and many of them will stay subbed for years and years.
Nurturing your playarbase is a valid business model and way better for the subbers compared to the "hit and run" tactics many use (including ZoS).

I do not belive a MMO that is made for the PvP crowd is doomed to fail, in the right hands, DAOC has proven it. You could ofcourse bring up Darkfall as a counter example but that game had serious mechanics issues...like ESO doese...hmm...

Nijjion

@popatiberiuoneb18_ESO Yeah DAoC had big imbalances at release but what strikes me as weird with ESO is making mistakes that past MMOs have made.

Being near the industry myself and have a lot of friends who work as 3D artists in games, I know that they don't have that much free time but you would expect them to know MMOs to not make the same mistakes. It's like remaking the wheel but it's shaped like a pentagon.

NordJitsu

Clydus,

Large groups have access to the same abilities as the small groups. If 15 people are taking out 50 people by AoE bombing them, that just means they are out playing them.

The 50 person group could use the same tactics and take out that 15 person group if they were organized to do so.


This is why AoEs are so important and why they need to be strong. They separate uncoordinated groups from coordinated ones. They act as zerg busters and reward skilled play.

The changes you advocate would remove that dynamic and turn all fights into simple arithmetic: "who has more people?"

popatiberiuoneb18_ESO

Nijjion wrote: »

@popatiberiuoneb18_ESO Yeah DAoC had big imbalances at release but what strikes me as weird with ESO is making mistakes that past MMOs have made.

Being near the industry myself and have a lot of friends who work as 3D artists in games, I know that they don't have that much free time but you would expect them to know MMOs to not make the same mistakes. It's like remaking the wheel but it's shaped like a pentagon.

Yeah, DAOC was never perfect to begin with and always had inbalances with no exception. The difference is that the staff actualy took good decisions (most of the times) in dealing with the issues and listened to the playerbase to some extent.

I'd imagine there is this group of people that "call the shots" with what gets into the game and what doesnt. If those people have no idea what they are doing then you can have an army of 3D designers and it wont make the game better. I could give you so many examples of mmo's that succeded with poor grafic and mediocre interface but instead i'll just give you the MUDs as example (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MUD). Many had such a deep immersion and fun gameplay that no MMO was ever able to stand even close to it and any MUD player can confirm it.

I certainly wont blame Camelot Unchained if the graphics are not top notch and will play it as long as it stands true to the PvP promise..to be fair i dont expect much out of the graphics after seeing their videos.

arnaldomoraleseb17_ESO

I don't like AOEs. For me is totally non skilled, I only see people running and spamming skills.

I like to play as "warrior", what can I do against a lot of AOEs if I have single target skills?. AOEs shouldn't be so strong as it is right now.

The only reason because I hate zergs battles is because AOEs. Single target skills have no chance against hundreds of AOEs.

Dudis

Ironically uncapping AoEs, making them even stronger, would force people to spread out thus making single target burst builds more viable.

arnaldomoraleseb17_ESO

Months ago when I played in beta it was awesome. a lot of single combats that were part of a great battle (Zerg vs Zerg). Right now the game is pretty stupid because AOEs. The people only run and spam skills and don't care about nothing more.

NordJitsu

Dudis wrote: »

Ironically uncapping AoEs, making them even stronger, would force people to spread out thus making single target burst builds more viable.

Yup.

AoE caps hurt all play styles.

arnaldomoraleseb17_ESO

NordJitsu wrote: »

Dudis wrote: »

Ironically uncapping AoEs, making them even stronger, would force people to spread out thus making single target burst builds more viable.

Yup.

AoE caps hurt all play styles.

AOE cap isn't the real problem. The problem is a poor PvP design without small objectives to small groups.

People who like zergs will continue going in zergs and people who like roam will continue making roam (or maybe we will leave the game). I don't like zergs and never go in to one.

Dudis

You want to know about a game with really strong AoE where people (for the most part) learned to deal with it? DAoC.

Hell, even the random zerglings got it...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkl_fAjmLmA

Doesn't that look just wonterful in comparison to the zerg-balls we now get in this game? :P

RedTalon

At-least AOES are starting to get limited with the upcoming patch.

Xsorus

The thing people forget about Warhammer is Mark didn't make Warhammer the way he did cause he didn't know how to make DAOC2.....Warhammer got made the way it did cause when it was being made, It wasn't meant to compete with Mythics other game....it was only after they were bought by EA that Mythic decided that they could just say screw daoc and try and outdo it.

Origin

Teevesnacks wrote: »

coordinated groups doing coordinated things

Nerf coordination

yup. avoid coordination by isolating each player in his own instance in Cyrodiil.
Come on guys, stop whining.

jpp

Just (as someone already noticed here) removing AoE will not stop people from grouping - it will actually do reverse.
With AoE all players in packed group got damage, so when You see big group running like one man the only option is to attack them with AoE, witout AoE they will not even notice any attack.
Always in any game 50 people will kill one person in one second, so I completely do not understand why some complain. The only solution is to group and coordinate - what others can do you can do also. If the group runs too close to each other it should be attacked with AoE so their only option is to split into few smaller groups running close but not in very close proiximity.

Some additional question that might be asked (so groups do not tend to zerg too much):
Area healing is weak, but does it stack?
Should healing automatically choose low health players?

- Never ask to stop AoE because people run in big groups - the AoE is only option to attack such groups.
- It is only because you choose wrong technique, there are some other skills that make group too strong, and you do not get organized properly that's why such groups exist.

The_Drexill

Alot of weird comments in this thread.

There is always a counter. The truth is, the people that get straight up AoE bombed are generally making the mistake of cramming themselves into a small area... they're essentially begging for it. If I know a group is about to bomb a large group, I'll drop negate magic right on top of them with a volcanic rune as the bomb hits... then voila, the bomb group is looking a bit foolish.

AoE really isn't out of hand. It's not nearly as strong as a game like DAoC. Open field single target damage is what wins. As you start to see more competitive players combat each other in different scenario's... you'll see it come together. Bombing is for farming AP and zerg busting (newb stompin')... open field groups that fight competitively will use single target setups.

AoE on it's own isn't all that strong... Impulse for example isn't near as strong as single target spells, plus it's point blank. A cast of Dark Talons will put the brakes on an Impulse spammer pretty quick.

Imperator_Clydus

brandondickenson_ESO wrote: »

Alot of weird comments in this thread.

There is always a counter. The truth is, the people that get straight up AoE bombed are generally making the mistake of cramming themselves into a small area... they're essentially begging for it. If I know a group is about to bomb a large group, I'll drop negate magic right on top of them with a volcanic rune as the bomb hits... then voila, the bomb group is looking a bit foolish.

AoE really isn't out of hand. It's not nearly as strong as a game like DAoC. Open field single target damage is what wins. As you start to see more competitive players combat each other in different scenario's... you'll see it come together. Bombing is for farming AP and zerg busting (newb stompin')... open field groups that fight competitively will use single target setups.

AoE on it's own isn't all that strong... Impulse for example isn't near as strong as single target spells, plus it's point blank. A cast of Dark Talons will put the brakes on an Impulse spammer pretty quick.

The problem is that keeps, and outpost, generally are small spaces. Many of the efficient AOE spammers would just wait for an entire group to go into the inner keep, then come from behind and impulse/dark talons/standard of might and wipe them out. Any smart AOE spam group will not attack you in the open field generally.

Considering AP farming is all most groups do, AOEs will always be the preferred option. Not to mention AOE spamming is a lot more efficient and effective than single target killing, especially when you are wiping 50+ players in a matter of seconds. To believe single target is even in the same ball park is rather odd to me.

AOE by itself isn't strong. Using it in conjunction with a lot of players, on the other hand, is. ZOS has already upped the cost of using impulse, which is a step in the right direction. I would just rather see more variety in PvP instead of AOE spam groups and merc spammers.