ESO Fight Autopsy: Invasion vs. Bolt Escape

Aimelin · May 2014

jobo11b16_ESO wrote: »

NordJitsu wrote: »

Meh. Not interested in getting into a big argument with you guys again, especially knowing how nasty and personal jobo likes to make things.

I'll just say that I enjoyed the gameplay shown in the video and thanks for making it.

It shows rather clearly that Bash and Invasion make up two of the many counters to Bolt Escape. You 100% shut that guy down using those two abilities. By Tab locking and charging, you're able to stay on top of him even when your Invasion doesn't apply the stun. That's exactly what I've been saying all along.

If anything, the guy turned around to face you because he realized he wasn't going to get away.

Or he thought this was his chance to strike since he had worn his attacker down. Bash is getting nerfed next patch, so there's that "counter" gone. He had more than enough magicka to bolt away, considering the costs of all the abilities he used.

the only nerf bash is getting is the passive dmg increase will be lowered...

do people even read the pts notes?

Niffo · May 2014

Aimelin wrote: »

the only nerf bash is getting is the passive dmg increase will be lowered...

do people even read the pts notes?

Is that not a nerf to it then? Lowering the damage? Or do you think that is a buff?

Nijjion · May 2014

Sorc could of got away, no balance in the skills with cost which lets the sorc get away every time. CC break being together with stamina makes this so and stamina not having any reduction passives like magicka does.

He even agrees 'chicken *** sorcs' are a problem with just blinking away all the time.

Edit - Do you even block the first blink? It doesn't take any stamina looking at it closely.

Raggok · May 2014

Aimelin wrote: »

jobo11b16_ESO wrote: »

NordJitsu wrote: »

Meh. Not interested in getting into a big argument with you guys again, especially knowing how nasty and personal jobo likes to make things.

I'll just say that I enjoyed the gameplay shown in the video and thanks for making it.

It shows rather clearly that Bash and Invasion make up two of the many counters to Bolt Escape. You 100% shut that guy down using those two abilities. By Tab locking and charging, you're able to stay on top of him even when your Invasion doesn't apply the stun. That's exactly what I've been saying all along.

If anything, the guy turned around to face you because he realized he wasn't going to get away.

Or he thought this was his chance to strike since he had worn his attacker down. Bash is getting nerfed next patch, so there's that "counter" gone. He had more than enough magicka to bolt away, considering the costs of all the abilities he used.

the only nerf bash is getting is the passive dmg increase will be lowered...

do people even read the pts notes?

Stamina cost reduction from the passive is also being reduced. Hence, less bashes before you run out of resources.

"Deadly Bash
Fixed an issue where the damage bonus coupled with a "bashing" jewelry enchant was doing too much damage. Slightly decreased this ability’s stamina cost reduction"

Did you even read the patch notes?.

Raggok · May 2014

Nijjion wrote: »

Edit - Do you even block the first blink? It doesn't take any stamina looking at it closely.

I definitely put block up there, you can see the animation. If it didn't take away any stamina it could be the case that when you block something that does no damage you don't lose stamina. Or, a bug...

Not sure, it would require some testing. Streak does damage but Bolt of Lightning doesn't.

Censorious · May 2014

As others have said, he spends the first half of the fight trying to get away, either fleeing or trying to get to range to give his only effective nuke a chance (shard).
I counted seven BE in the first few seconds - that's a LOT of magicka used up.
I can manage about 5 from full charge.
After that he's on potions and DE and he clearly uses everything he has on more BEs.
That's the end of the fight really, dead Sorcerer walking. All he can do is tickle and hope desperately he's managed to get close enough to help.

Could I have done any better than he did? - probably not. Sorc has one powerful hit in his bag and it's on a loooong cast with very obvious animation. It has a knockdown but it's way shorter than the cast time so a melee opponent is up and in your face before you can get a second.
The only root we have is short range too, so having rooted, we are still dangerously close and need to BE.

The only way a sorcerer can fight effectively is when he has a tank to hold the aggro while he winds up that shard again. In PvP that makes it a group-class really, which is fine by me.
The only way I win 1v1 is when I'm facing a vamp and I unload silver bolts - boy is that satisfying!

prana33b14_ESO · May 2014

trahe wrote: »

Bolt Escape reminds me of LOTRO Desperate Flight. I did become frustrated like the OP obviously is when my enemy disappeared instead of standing there and dying. I too thought it was a chicken **it thing to do. I always thought, "die with some dignity" but not everyone thinks like me. (shrug)

Haha forgot about desparate flight. Didn't that like recall you all the way back to a base though? OMG the kiddies crying over that here would be epic.

Raggok · May 2014

prana33b14_ESO wrote: »

trahe wrote: »

Bolt Escape reminds me of LOTRO Desperate Flight. I did become frustrated like the OP obviously is when my enemy disappeared instead of standing there and dying. I too thought it was a chicken **it thing to do. I always thought, "die with some dignity" but not everyone thinks like me. (shrug)

Haha forgot about desparate flight. Didn't that like recall you all the way back to a base though? OMG the kiddies crying over that here would be epic.

The kiddies are the people who use and defend using abilities like that. They are basically spoiled children who can't stand losing. So, they try to remove risk vs. reward from the game for themselves by exploiting broken or poorly executed game mechanics.

And, I'm not just talking about BE.

prana33b14_ESO · May 2014

Raggok wrote: »

The kiddies are the people who use and defend using abilities like that. They are basically spoiled children who can't stand losing.

Yeah they aren't the ones here crying that they didn't get a kill because someone used an escape skill to actually escape, or that they need "x" skill because another class has it. Nice try.

Do you know what we did to the king of Desparate Flight on our server instead of crying for nerfs? We made fun of him for being someone who wouldn't leave camp without having it off CD and if he used it to escape we lol'd. That's more fun.

Raggok · May 2014

Censorious wrote: »

As others have said, he spends the first half of the fight trying to get away, either fleeing or trying to get to range to give his only effective nuke a chance (shard).
I counted seven BE in the first few seconds - that's a LOT of magicka used up.
I can manage about 5 from full charge.
After that he's on potions and DE and he clearly uses everything he has on more BEs.
That's the end of the fight really, dead Sorcerer walking. All he can do is tickle and hope desperately he's managed to get close enough to help.

Could I have done any better than he did? - probably not. Sorc has one powerful hit in his bag and it's on a loooong cast with very obvious animation. It has a knockdown but it's way shorter than the cast time so a melee opponent is up and in your face before you can get a second.
The only root we have is short range too, so having rooted, we are still dangerously close and need to BE.

The only way a sorcerer can fight effectively is when he has a tank to hold the aggro while he winds up that shard again. In PvP that makes it a group-class really, which is fine by me.
The only way I win 1v1 is when I'm facing a vamp and I unload silver bolts - boy is that satisfying!

This guy was always turning back to see if I was charging him because he knows that if I don't charge after him after he BEs that I'm out of stamina. As long as I had stamina to charge him he kept bolt escaping. When he saw I was no longer charging him, that is when he pulled up to fight.

Yes, he was low on resources but SO WAS I. He could have gotten away several times but he was testing me to see if I had any more juice left.

He decided to fight. He wasn't forced to fight.

KoooZ · May 2014

prana33b14_ESO wrote: »

Raggok wrote: »

The kiddies are the people who use and defend using abilities like that. They are basically spoiled children who can't stand losing.

Yeah they aren't the ones here crying that they didn't get a kill because someone used an escape skill to actually escape, or that they need "x" skill because another class has it. Nice try.

Do you know what we did to the king of Desparate Flight on our server instead of crying for nerfs? We made fun of him for being someone who wouldn't leave camp without having it off CD and if he used it to escape we lol'd. That's more fun.

Neither side has a monopoly on childishness imo, but kids don't usually cry when they're getting what they want.

ErilAq · May 2014

What I don't get is why people get so angry at a retreating sorc. You have won. maybe you don't get credit, but you still won. If you route an army you still win the battle, even if you didn't wipe it from the face of the earth. Bolt escape costs quite a bit of mana, so unless you gear to spam it (gimping your dps) you really have only a couple uses of it. Effective countering (shown in the vid) completely shuts down Bolt Escape. It's not OP, annoying, but not OP.

If you chase a running sorc to your doom then it's your fault, not the sorcs "OP" abilities. It's not a worthwhile damage skill, and while it can be used to effectively place oneself, that's the way it's meant to be played. There are so many roots, knockdowns, and stuns in this game there's really no excuse to crying for a bolt escape nerf.

Raggok · May 2014

prana33b14_ESO wrote: »

Do you know what we did to the king of Desparate Flight on our server instead of crying for nerfs? We made fun of him for being someone who wouldn't leave camp without having it off CD and if he used it to escape we lol'd. That's more fun.

Wow. I bet his IRL feelings were really hurt by that. He sounds like a troll to me. The same type of person who can use BE to troll in this game. He doesn't care if you laugh at him.

Wouldn't it have just been better for everyone to not have a stupid ability like that?

Raggok · May 2014

What I don't get is why people get so angry at a retreating sorc. You have won. maybe you don't get credit, but you still won.

Is it still a win if he runs off, get resources back, and re-engages and kills you? Or I guess that would be a draw by your logic.

Raggok · May 2014

There are so many roots, knockdowns, and stuns in this game there's really no excuse to crying for a bolt escape nerf.

You realize that every other class has to deal with all of that crap without having BE, to counter it right?

prana33b14_ESO · May 2014

Raggok wrote: »

Wow. I bet his IRL feelings were really hurt by that. He sounds like a troll to me. The same type of person who can use BE to troll in this game. He doesn't care if you laugh at him.

Wouldn't it have just been better for everyone to not have a stupid ability like that?

coolstorybro - Now people using their skills are TROLLS!

...and we're back to all classes having the same exact abilities.

Thieves and Mesmers in GW2 had very mobile escape abilities too. I really don't remember the uproar like here. I personally didn't care and played engineer and necro which had 0 escapes. Wait, I guess my engineer had "escapes" in that I could hit 2 skills (slick shoes to kd the person, and double speed to run away) and I still got killed if they decided to run around the oil slick.

Maybe if you guys think it is that great of a skill, roll a sorc? Just a thought.

Raggok · May 2014

prana33b14_ESO wrote: »

Raggok wrote: »

Wow. I bet his IRL feelings were really hurt by that. He sounds like a troll to me. The same type of person who can use BE to troll in this game. He doesn't care if you laugh at him.

Wouldn't it have just been better for everyone to not have a stupid ability like that?

coolstorybro - Now people using their skills are TROLLS!

...and we're back to all classes having the same exact abilities.

Thieves and Mesmers in GW2 had very mobile escape abilities too. I really don't remember the uproar like here. I personally didn't care and played engineer and necro which had 0 escapes. Wait, I guess my engineer had "escapes" in that I could hit 2 skills (slick shoes to kd the person, and double speed to run away) and I still got killed if they decided to run around the oil slick.

Maybe if you guys think it is that great of a skill, roll a sorc? Just a thought.

It's not using an ability that makes you a troll. It is how you use it. BE can be used to troll in this game. As can vampire mist.

There were many complaints of D/P thieves and Mobo Warriors trolling in GW2. Many. In the earlier days of GW2, it was D/D Elementalists that could troll via mobility and escapability, but they got nerfed due to the complaints.

The last thing I want to do is roll a class or use an ability to troll people with.

ErilAq · May 2014

No, you will have the opportunity to regain your stam, magica, and health as well. what people have a hard time figuring out is that bolt escape can let the sorc run, but if he's busy running, he's not attacking. If you can't keep up, let him go and regen your losses. Yes it's annoying, but you can effectively counter it by intelligently using your roots and stuns. Calling for an ability to be nerfed when all it does is force you to use tactics (instead of spamming a couple of buttons) is silly.

Might as well call for a nerf for a templars healing abilities because I'm not incorperating that strategy into my fight. Or calling for a NB's ability to stealth because I'm not ready for that aspect of the game. I don't understand why people want to have all classes exactly the same. You spec escape bolt spam you gimp your dps. This video gives you a step by step way to counter the ability. he would have slaughtered the sorc had the bow wielder not shown up. Hardly OP.

prana33b14_ESO · May 2014

Raggok wrote: »

It's not using an ability that makes you a troll. It is how you use it. BE can be used to troll in this game. As can vampire mist.

There were many complaints of D/P thieves and Mobo Warriors trolling in GW2. Many. In the earlier days of GW2, it was D/D Elementalists that could troll via mobility and escapability, but they got nerfed due to the complaints.

The last thing I want to do is roll a class or use an ability to troll people with.

lol - Now it isn't that Bolt Escape is overpowered, it's just something that you get "trolled" with? Really? This is your argument? Well boo hoo. I mean, just lol.

Let's be honest here also. GW2 balance issues were all based on the E-sport side of things, not wvw. They didn't nerf the escapes of thieves and mesmer either afaik.

Armitas · May 2014

For those that feel that their class should be able to escape with impunity. How would PvP be if every class had this ability?

Think about that reductio ad absurdum for a moment and see if you can still hold to the belief that you personally should have an escape skill of this potential.

So now everyone is entitled to the following ability.
* To leave a fight with impunity
* To win by making the other player "run away".
* To fulfill skill descriptions to the fullest extent of the word.
* Disregard roots and snares because they are frustrating

Can you still hold to the belief that.
* you should personally be allowed to leave a fight with impunity.
* It still counts as a "win" if your opponent runs away from you.
* It's called "bolt escape" you should be able to escape.
* you are personally entitled to an escape because there are broken roots and snares in the game.

Hopefully you are aware of how absurd this would make PvP. PvP would be Halloween online, where the best players are those who can scare the most people into running away from them. Who needs to do battle when they can just frighten the other players out of of their keep? So then why is this any less absurd if isolated to a single class?

ruzlb16_ESO · May 2014

Armitas wrote: »

For those that feel that their class should be able to escape with impunity.

A well reasoned post that begins with the flawed premise above, and so is rendered meaningless. The video at the beginning of the thread shows a sorc failing to escape with impunity despite Bolt Escape.

Armitas · May 2014

ruzlb16_ESO wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

For those that feel that their class should be able to escape with impunity.

A well reasoned post that begins with the flawed premise above, and so is rendered meaningless. The video at the beginning of the thread shows a sorc failing to escape with impunity despite Bolt Escape.

That video does not represent that one cannot use it with impunity. It represents that this sorc cannot or in this case did not. It would be a strawman to use that video to generalize that it is globally the case that sorcerers cannot escape with impunity.

Raggok · May 2014

Armitas wrote: »

ruzlb16_ESO wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

For those that feel that their class should be able to escape with impunity.

A well reasoned post that begins with the flawed premise above, and so is rendered meaningless. The video at the beginning of the thread shows a sorc failing to escape with impunity despite Bolt Escape.

That video does not represent that one cannot use it with impunity. It represents that this sorc cannot. That video would be classified as a strawman, though not intentional, if used for generalization. Insightful, but not capable of drawing definitive conclusions upon.

No, it represents that this sorc chose not to use it to escape. He decided to fight. Once again, BE is fine in a situation where the sorcerer doesn't use it totally disengage from a fight. The problem are the people who spam it so much and so fast that all you see are a trail of 10 orbs stretching to the horizon.

And let me say that it takes a far more skill to counter it than to use it. And my counters to it? Well, they could be countered as well. The only reason this sorcerer didn't have those counters (like immovable) is because he most likely rarely runs into people that can stick on him with him using BE only. So, he has not had to "waste" an ability slot on it.

Armitas · May 2014

Raggok wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

ruzlb16_ESO wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

For those that feel that their class should be able to escape with impunity.

A well reasoned post that begins with the flawed premise above, and so is rendered meaningless. The video at the beginning of the thread shows a sorc failing to escape with impunity despite Bolt Escape.

That video does not represent that one cannot use it with impunity. It represents that this sorc cannot. That video would be classified as a strawman, though not intentional, if used for generalization. Insightful, but not capable of drawing definitive conclusions upon.

No, it represents that this sorc chose not to use it to escape. He decided to fight. Once again, BE is fine in a situation where the sorcerer doesn't use it totally disengage from a fight. The problem are the people who spam it so much and so fast that all you see are a trail of 10 orbs stretching to the horizon.

And let me say that it takes a far more skill to counter it than to use it. And my counters to it? Well, they could be countered as well. The only reason this sorcerer didn't have those counters (like immovable) is because he most likely rarely runs into people that can stick on him with him using BE only. So, he has not had to "waste" an ability slot on it.

I completely agree with you it's fine when it's used to fight. I also don't know the solution.
My reply was not clear enough and seemingly indicted you rather than this particular use of your video. I edited it to be clear.

There is nothing wrong with your video in your context. But to take it out of context like that guy did, and say that it shows that they cannot escape with impunity, would be a strawman.

Sorry for the poor wording. You and I see eye to eye on this I think.

thelg · May 2014

ruzlb16_ESO wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

For those that feel that their class should be able to escape with impunity.

A well reasoned post that begins with the flawed premise above, and so is rendered meaningless. The video at the beginning of the thread shows a sorc failing to escape with impunity despite Bolt Escape.

It was his choice he could have easily gotten away. He thought he had OP out of stamina and an easy kill(which is usually what happens).

xDonMega · May 2014

If the sorc had used bolt escape to get more range and then killed the OP would you still considered that fine when used in a fight?

xDonMega · May 2014

Raggok wrote: »

What I don't get is why people get so angry at a retreating sorc. You have won. maybe you don't get credit, but you still won.

Is it still a win if he runs off, get resources back, and re-engages and kills you? Or I guess that would be a draw by your logic.

Wait, so if the sorc does that it's not considered fine when used in a fight?

It sounds like it's fine when used in a fight that you win but not fine when used in a fight that you lose...

NordJitsu · May 2014

prana33b14_ESO wrote: »

Raggok wrote: »

Wow. I bet his IRL feelings were really hurt by that. He sounds like a troll to me. The same type of person who can use BE to troll in this game. He doesn't care if you laugh at him.

Wouldn't it have just been better for everyone to not have a stupid ability like that?

coolstorybro - Now people using their skills are TROLLS!

...and we're back to all classes having the same exact abilities.

Thieves and Mesmers in GW2 had very mobile escape abilities too. I really don't remember the uproar like here. I personally didn't care and played engineer and necro which had 0 escapes. Wait, I guess my engineer had "escapes" in that I could hit 2 skills (slick shoes to kd the person, and double speed to run away) and I still got killed if they decided to run around the oil slick.

Maybe if you guys think it is that great of a skill, roll a sorc? Just a thought.

To be fair, there was a lot of whining in GW2 as well. Luckily those devs were smart enough not to harm build diversity to give into whiny bads.

I played a bursty warrior in GW2. I LOVE high damage and high mobility builds. Its just my style. Some people like to play a tank that can stand up to 4 people whacking on him. Some people like to play a rogue. Some people get satisfaction from playing a support role or a healer, because they like helping the group.

My warrior was built to get into a fight, utterly destroy one person, and then run away. I'd often use the build to get a group to chase me and then have an ambush lying in wait (which is why chasing is bad folks.)

There's nothing about it that's "trolling" and it certainly isn't over powered to be able to run away.

Its actually one of the highest skill caps in play styles. Unlike a Tank or a Healer, mistakes mean death. You can't afford to miss a block, dodge, ect. There's no room for error or making up for your mistakes like a DK or a Templar has with their self healing. You mess up, you're dead.

ErilAq wrote: »

No, you will have the opportunity to regain your stam, magica, and health as well. what people have a hard time figuring out is that bolt escape can let the sorc run, but if he's busy running, he's not attacking. If you can't keep up, let him go and regen your losses. Yes it's annoying, but you can effectively counter it by intelligently using your roots and stuns. Calling for an ability to be nerfed when all it does is force you to use tactics (instead of spamming a couple of buttons) is silly.

Might as well call for a nerf for a templars healing abilities because I'm not incorperating that strategy into my fight. Or calling for a NB's ability to stealth because I'm not ready for that aspect of the game. I don't understand why people want to have all classes exactly the same. You spec escape bolt spam you gimp your dps. This video gives you a step by step way to counter the ability. he would have slaughtered the sorc had the bow wielder not shown up. Hardly OP.

This guy gets it.

If I hadn't already used my Pledge of Mara, I'd ask you to marry me.

Armitas wrote: »

For those that feel that their class should be able to escape with impunity. How would PvP be if every class had this ability?

The only thing that would be bad about that would be that build/class diversity would take a hit and everything would be samey.

Most of these nerf threads are from people who should really be playing Call of Duty because their idea of "balance" is that everyone is exactly the same.

xDonMega · May 2014

I'm just trying to figure this 'fine when used in a fight' logic out..

I consider myself in a perpetual state of war whenever I'm in Cyrodiil.. so I'm confused as to the perception some of you have that certain abilities are only acceptable when used in combat.

Armitas · May 2014

NordJitsu wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

For those that feel that their class should be able to escape with impunity. How would PvP be if every class had this ability?

The only thing that would be bad about that would be that build/class diversity would take a hit and everything would be samey.

I must not be understanding you. Are you saying that if everyone in PvP could escape from everyone else with impunity, then the only bad thing about PvP would be class diversity?