Eso- Magica>Stamina for class skills!

jvargas150_ESO

Edit: Wanted to state that what I originally viewed as a problem, is now something I actually love and decided that magica was the way to go to have my ideal character!

Blackhorne

So in summary, you don't want consequences to your choices.
You CAN play however you like. But that doesn't mean it'll be easy.

nerevarine1138

No, it isn't.

If you're a min/maxer (best of luck to ya), then you know that the only way to crank out your precious numbers is to work with the system given to you. You can't try and work against that system and expect things to work the same way.

Every non-staff build has to balance stamina and magicka skills, and not one of them is gimped by it. Most players might actually see an advantage to having two separate resources available, allowing them to avoid serious downtime between using abilities due to lack of one resource.

TheBull

That's kinda how the game works OP. Class skill line use magika and weapons use stam. It's like that for everyone. I'm a NB too btw.

Trouvo

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

No, it isn't.

If you're a min/maxer (best of luck to ya), then you know that the only way to crank out your precious numbers is to work with the system given to you. You can't try and work against that system and expect things to work the same way.

Every non-staff build has to balance stamina and magicka skills, and not one of them is gimped by it. Most players might actually see an advantage to having two separate resources available, allowing them to avoid serious downtime between using abilities due to lack of one resource.

was going to reply but dont need to after reading this reply

jpp

Blackhorne wrote: »

So in summary, you don't want consequences to your choices.
You CAN play however you like. But that doesn't mean it'll be easy.

I guess he means that mages have better life becuase they can choose magica only, while NB has to use both and can not maximize - that he prefers to.
NB is indeed not planned for pure stamina maxing to be most effective, may be NB with fighters guild skills. Anyway there is overcharging system that will damage all min max plans.

Extractor

jvargas150_ESO wrote: »

Read the link for a better explanation.

***Realize that the theory you can play however you like is bogus, which disappoints me especially since that was the saving grace of this game..** anyway

I'm the type of player that loves to min-max,

If you are too, here is an article that is very clear at explaining some of the problems with doing so as a nightblade.

After much searching I've come to the conclusion that the way I wanted to build my toon is not viable or as effective as I originally intended: /

Incase you where wondering I was going for a Heavy Armor 2handed wearing Nightblade with stealth. The problem lies in my NB abilities scaling with magica and my wep abilities and swinging my 2hander working with sta.

So I pretty much gimp my first 4 abilities if I go with stacking health and sta(since they scale off magica), or I gimp my fifth and normal wep swings if I go with stacking health and Sta (since they scale off sta)

That being the case it seems users who focus in magica will have a great advantage especially if they wear a staff which scales off magica.

I mean I could always split my attribute points, which perhaps was the design intended, but magica users don't necessarily have too.

So that being the case, I think I'm going to swamp out heavy armor and just use light armor and also equip a staff and go the route of focusing on magica and health to be competitive dps wise with the top dps. UNLESS THEY FIX THE SKILLS SYSTEM by allowing Nightblade abilities to be effect by Sta...

http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/magicka-should-not-class-skills/

You know a Stealth Nightblade should not wear Heavy Armor, come on now. shame on you, you should know better!

audabon2013

fyi there builds that are mostly magicka, mostly stam, and hybrids of both.

it depends on the skills you want to use. those skills will dictate where you have to allocate stats.

as for your Tamriel Foundry link, that discussion is also moot. the dividing line is, and always will be that class skills use magicka and weapon skills (exluding staffs) use stamina.

there is an awesome dps nightblade guide that shows how using 4 assassin and 2 shadow skills on the main bar is an incredible dps beast spec. full magicka build as you may omit stamina altogether. warning though, it may be a bit squishy if not played with finesse.

also keep in mind that magicka and stamina are just resources. in lieu of cooldowns those 2 pools are the only limitations on a skill's usage. this is not "some other game" where cooldown management is the central focus. you must decide things in this game:

how much to allocate, and where
how much to use in combat, and when

you then fill in the rest with basic (some call them "auto") attacks.

even if you went hybrid mag/stam you should absolutely not be trying to spam either resource empty in hopes that somehow it will sustain your button crushing onslaught.

Thunder

jvargas150_ESO wrote: »

***Realize that the theory you can play however you like is bogus, which disappoints me especially since that was the saving grace of this game..** anyway

I'm the type of player that loves to min-max,

So you are a min/maxer that wants every possible build to be just as powerful as the next? That just doesn't make any sense to me.

I think play as you want means you can play as you want, but you have to understand that some choices are going to make you stronger in one area and weaker in another. That is precisely what min/max means.

Lalai

There's nothing wrong with being a min/maxer.. however if that's the way you're going to play, then you have to accept that you're going to be "forced" into a very specific build/class/race. That's what min/maxing is all about, finding the things that work best and then using those..and then changing it up when a patch nerfs those things.

Expecting every single combination of gear/passives/skills to be equally powerful is unrealistic and has really never been accomplished as far as I'm aware in any MMO, even those with much less choice.

Now that isn't to say that the game doesn't have some things that need balance, or that NBs are functioning perfectly. It's more to say that the playstyle you've chosen (min/maxing) is the one that is the most restrictive to builds.

Raubrey

What I love about Nightblade is drawing from two pools to its optimal -- e.g. siphon/2H. Rarely do I ever use a regular attack.

What I don't love about Nightblade is that your're pretty much forced to use a bow for reliable AOE. I also use shadow if I needed it but typically don't with my 100% crit stampede and buff to armor/magic resistance in the healing spec. I also have Immovable.

I can solo Cyrodil dungeons, often help others kill their bosses and yadda yadda, but forget Harvesters. I generally need to be overleveled -- at lv 47 I have yet to complete the Fighters Guild (if I could keep the daedra away from the harvester I might have a chance) so have no clue how I will complete the last main quest...and don't get me started on Lyris Doppleganger.

I am magicka/stamina spec'd 2:1 (+2 in Health) with mostly all bonuses to health and even the health mundus stone for now. Someone suggested silver bolts/shards for the orbs (haven't tried it).

I guess I am a bit disillusioned with the class given harvester mechanics are mandatory in the game.

I may switch to a duel wielding bow setup but had I to do over again I'd of gone with a DK as my main...but that's just me.

Kangas

You're not a min maxer if you chose to wear heavy armor and then complain about resource management.

Irtax

It's not hard to softcap all three stats (Health, Magika, Stamina) using enchants and food.

PBpsy

Min-maxing means playing the best possible build if all possible builds were as strong then that wouldn't be min -maxing anymore. I mean do you really expect that a Stealth Based heavy armor NightBlade with the crappiest weapon choice in the game should compete with a build that takes advantage of all synergies possible in the class.

jvargas150_ESO

Kangas wrote: »

You're not a min maxer if you chose to wear heavy armor and then complain about resource management.

I'm aware of the hit I'm taking to my MIN MAXING by going heavy, I accepted that, I just don't believe my STATS if I'm a melee character that wears heavy armor should be to focus ON MAGICA... Thats my whole point.

DON'T GET ME WRONG I LOVE THIS GAME, STILL RECOMMEND IT EVEN WITH THE CHEATING (ANIMATION CANCELING) and WACKY SKILL SYSTEM just informing people, that if you do go melee realize you get the most out of weapon skills and the stats you are adding (STAMINA) DO NOT HELP YOUR CLASS SKILLS.

After all is said and done, THE OVERCHARGING is a blessing in disguise as some poster said, since it limits how much min-maxers get from speccing into one stat.

nerevarine1138

jvargas150_ESO wrote: »

I'm aware of the hit I'm taking to my MIN MAXING by going heavy, I accepted that, I just don't believe my STATS if I'm a melee character that wears heavy armor should be to focus ON MAGICA... Thats my whole point.

DON'T GET ME WRONG I LOVE THIS GAME, STILL RECOMMEND IT EVEN WITH THE CHEATING (ANIMATION CANCELING) and WACKY SKILL SYSTEM just informing people, that if you do go melee realize you get the most out of weapon skills and the stats you are adding (STAMINA) DO NOT HELP YOUR CLASS SKILLS.

After all is said and done, THE OVERCHARGING is a blessing in disguise as some poster said, since it limits how much min-maxers get from speccing into one stat.

Some abilities use magicka, some use stamina. There isn't any type of resource that a heavy-armor-wearing weapon-wielding character should use. There are resources that they do use. If you neglect one of those resources, it'll cause issues.

Svann

I think you want to have your cake and eat it too.
You want to be able to choose your skillset, but not feel like your choice is less worthy than another skillset. But guess what? Even if they magically balanced the skills so every combination was exactly equal to every other combination, there would still be people that argued that one set was the best and its not fair they cant choose a different set.

And the truth is, the setup is balanced enough that choices are hard to make.

jvargas150_ESO

adamrussell52_ESO wrote: »

I think you want to have your cake and eat it too.
You want to be able to choose your skillset, but not feel like your choice is less worthy than another skillset. But guess what? Even if they magically balanced the skills so every combination was exactly equal to every other combination, there would still be people that argued that one set was the best and its not fair they cant choose a different set.

And the truth is, the setup is balanced enough that choices are hard to make.

I don't think you get it.. I'll explain it real simple.

If you use melee attacks and want to make them stronger you would add stamina.

At the same time though you are DOING absolutely nothing to increase the damage of your class skills, which seems contradictory to leveling. You level to get stronger...

No one is asking them to magically balanced the skills, just to make it so that IT MAKES SENSE.

Don't confuse the issue, I"M NOT ASKING FOR ALL SPECS TO BE EQUAL, I'm asking that gearing would be as you would expect it, not as strangely as it is now.

Ohioastro

The dual wield tree has a nice AoE that can be bumped up to have a good range. Helped a ton in the level 30 main quest fight.

Svann

You have a choice. Focus on magic for your class skills, or stamina for your weapon skills, or balance it out. Even if you focus all on magic you will still have a stamina pool and you should appreciate that. The pure mage only has their magic pool to draw on, and thats capped. His stamina pool is wasted, except for the occasional dodge. You get 2 pools to draw on that are useful all the time.

jvargas150_ESO

adamrussell52_ESO wrote: »

You have a choice. Focus on magic for your class skills, or stamina for your weapon skills, or balance it out. Even if you focus all on magic you will still have a stamina pool and you should appreciate that. The pure mage only has their magic pool to draw on, and thats capped. His stamina pool is wasted, except for the occasional dodge. You get 2 pools to draw on that are useful all the time.

Very valid point, thank you, did not consider that! will add your quote to main post.

Crumpy

"Broken" has got to be one of the most over- and inappropriately-used words on games forums.

jvargas150_ESO

Crumpy wrote: »

"Broken" has got to be one of the most over- and inappropriately-used words on games forums.

Usually when someone says something is broken, they are implying it can get fixed.

I hope you understand the meaning of the thread, its implying they can fix something that isn't working.

In this case my main attribute does nothing to help the class I've choosen to play, let me repeat that again, so you understand what needs to be fix,

the main attribute I use "Stamina" isn't helping my CLASS skills, you know CLASS what you decided to play when you created your character...

mips_winnt

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Most players might actually see an advantage to having two separate resources available, allowing them to avoid serious downtime between using abilities due to lack of one resource.

Agreed, I play a Nightblade (Redguard) and use both Magicka (Class) and Stamina (Weapon) skills, while you don't get the max from either skill lines you do get IMHO a big benefit from having two resource pools to draw from and thus have sufficient resources to use abilities even in draw out engagements. I also carry around a couple of different medium armor sets (chest, legs along with different jewelry) with different enchants (1 stam set, 1 magicka set, 1 health set) so I can switch depending on the situation.

Lalai

jvargas150_ESO wrote: »

Crumpy wrote: »

"Broken" has got to be one of the most over- and inappropriately-used words on games forums.

Usually when someone says something is broken, they are implying it can get fixed.

I hope you understand the meaning of the thread, its implying they can fix something that isn't working.

In this case my main attribute does nothing to help the class I've choosen to play, let me repeat that again, so you understand what needs to be fix,

the main attribute I use "Stamina" isn't helping my CLASS skills, you know CLASS what you decided to play when you created your character...

I guess I kind of don't understand your complaint.. I mean I do understand the whole stamina doesn't help your class skills, but I don't understand why that's an issue. I play a Templar.. I have mostly healing stuff, and some dps stuff. I don't think that Stamina should be required for my dps class skills, and I also don't see Templar (or any other class) as a strictly stamina based thing.

Is it possible that you're placing the expectation in the Nightblade class to use stamina from preconceived notions when that expectation isn't placed there by the game? I guess it kinda sounds the same to me as if I were to be upset because I wanted to put points into Stamina but the skills I wanted to use were Magicka based (like resto skills from my staff). Instead of putting the points into Magicka.. I got on the forums and wanted the game to change it's setup.

So my question to you would be, why do you think the Nightblade class skills should be based on Stamina instead of Magicka, and how is it actually imbalanced or broken in relation to how other classes work as well? Consider that Dragonknight and Templar class skills work off of Magicka as well, and that often people play both roles in a melee way (tanks and melee dps).

feniks31_ESO

If you want the best single target dps you need Veiled Strike, maxmagicka cap, weapon crit, spell damage. Since only these stats affect Veiled Strike. You can also use one weapon skill just to continue dps when you run out of magicka.

BTW Light armor will not give you any advantages for melee class abilities except magicka cost reduction. You really need weapon crit for them not spell crit. And spell resist penetrations do not affect their damage (but armor penetration do)

And one hint - use light attack in your rotation just before any instant ability so they will hit instantly at the same time, not sure if bug or intended

LadyChaos

many pure mag users will slot something that uses STA just to be able to most efficiently use both pools. Many sorcerers train bows to make use of the STA pool. I myself for the longest time slotted rapid maneuvers JUST to be able to cast something from the STA pool.

I don't play the same way anymore as I use block and break a lot now, but for the longest time having a STA pool ability was very min/max for me to use all of my resources efficiently.

This is not to minimize nor explain away the NB situation in OP, only to share another outlook,

nerevarine1138

jvargas150_ESO wrote: »

Crumpy wrote: »

"Broken" has got to be one of the most over- and inappropriately-used words on games forums.

Usually when someone says something is broken, they are implying it can get fixed.

I hope you understand the meaning of the thread, its implying they can fix something that isn't working.

In this case my main attribute does nothing to help the class I've choosen to play, let me repeat that again, so you understand what needs to be fix,

the main attribute I use "Stamina" isn't helping my CLASS skills, you know CLASS what you decided to play when you created your character...

So, to recap:

Your decision to not use magicka-based skills has made it difficult for you to use magicka-based skills. However, you believe that your conscious choice to handicap yourself should be rewarded by converting the resource use for your other skills. Does that sound about right?

If you choose to only use one resource, then you have to live with the consequences of that choice. That's not a broken system.

PBpsy

feniks31_ESO wrote: »

If you want the best single target dps you need Veiled Strike, maxmagicka cap, weapon crit, spell damage. Since only these stats affect Veiled Strike. You can also use one weapon skill just to continue dps when you run out of magicka.

BTW Light armor will not give you any advantages for melee class abilities except magicka cost reduction. You really need weapon crit for them not spell crit. And spell resist penetrations do not affect their damage (but armor penetration do)

And one hint - use light attack in your rotation just before any instant ability so they will hit instantly at the same time, not sure if bug or intended

This . I am seeing a lot of inaccurate descriptions of how NB melee dps works and it is somewhat understandable considering how bad some skill descriptions are.

Also bash can stop some skill animations also giving you even more dps. I am not a huge fan of doing that though.

jvargas150_ESO

Lalai wrote: »

jvargas150_ESO wrote: »

Crumpy wrote: »

"Broken" has got to be one of the most over- and inappropriately-used words on games forums.

Usually when someone says something is broken, they are implying it can get fixed.

I hope you understand the meaning of the thread, its implying they can fix something that isn't working.

In this case my main attribute does nothing to help the class I've choosen to play, let me repeat that again, so you understand what needs to be fix,

the main attribute I use "Stamina" isn't helping my CLASS skills, you know CLASS what you decided to play when you created your character...

I guess I kind of don't understand your complaint.. I mean I do understand the whole stamina doesn't help your class skills, but I don't understand why that's an issue. I play a Templar.. I have mostly healing stuff, and some dps stuff. I don't think that Stamina should be required for my dps class skills, and I also don't see Templar (or any other class) as a strictly stamina based thing.

Is it possible that you're placing the expectation in the Nightblade class to use stamina from preconceived notions when that expectation isn't placed there by the game? I guess it kinda sounds the same to me as if I were to be upset because I wanted to put points into Stamina but the skills I wanted to use were Magicka based (like resto skills from my staff). Instead of putting the points into Magicka.. I got on the forums and wanted the game to change it's setup.

So my question to you would be, why do you think the Nightblade class skills should be based on Stamina instead of Magicka, and how is it actually imbalanced or broken in relation to how other classes work as well? Consider that Dragonknight and Templar class skills work off of Magicka as well, and that often people play both roles in a melee way (tanks and melee dps).

I'm a math teacher and always figuring things out number wise, I guess it irks me that adding to Stamina does nothing to help me improve my CLASS.

Its logical then that I would have to add to Magica, I guess it just seems so impractical that the main stat I add has nothing to do with the type of character I wanted to build a weapon using character.

It just seems reverse of what I would expect. Its not a BIG deal I could just spec Magica and hopefully the way the game was design will take that into consideration, but I doubt they do simply because a 2hander does less damage then a sword and shield so I doubt that they took into consideration.

So in short a mage will do melee swings just as hard as me a nightblade simply because I'm force to spec in magica.

Just seems strange to me...

nerevarine1138

jvargas150_ESO wrote: »

I'm a math teacher and always figuring things out number wise, I guess it irks me that adding to Stamina does nothing to help me improve my CLASS.

Its logical then that I would have to add to Magica, I guess it just seems so impractical that the main stat I add has nothing to do with the type of character I wanted to build a weapon using character.

It just seems reverse of what I would expect. Its not a BIG deal I could just spec Magica and hopefully the way the game was design will take that into consideration, but I doubt they do simply because a 2hander does less damage then a sword and shield so I doubt that they took into consideration.

So in short a mage will do melee swings just as hard as me a nightblade simply because I'm force to spec in magica.

Just seems strange to me...

Ahhh, I finally see your issue.

Stop thinking of this as another MMO, where class defines your role and combat style. If you don't want to use class skills, don't use them. Just stop complaining when you intentionally shut yourself off from an entire skill line.