Dark Talon shall not be nerfed

Obscure

I'll just put this here...

Obscure wrote: »

From the Recent AuA:

"Dark talons is currently bugged and can hit more targets than intended. We're also discussing improving players' ability to counter immobilize effects, but I don't have details for you on that just yet." -zos_konk

ZOS is aware of Broken Talons. It will be fixed, and then expect that counterplay to immobilize effects will be added because the lack of them is self evident. Load up on the Paxil now you zealous defenders of unblockable AoE immobilize spamming, the coming months are going to be really sad for you.

Note: Talons should only ever hit 5 targets as per it's intended design (go try it out in PvE). However it can bug and ignore that cap and hit everything in 8m. That's the bug, and there's a fix inbound.

Nijjion

Jadakin wrote: »

KoooZ wrote: »

frwinters_ESO wrote: »

Dark Talons is already being looked at as per the developers notes stating it affects to many people.

Link please

It's from the reddit AMA Konkle acknowledged that it's bugged and affecting too many people.

Would of thought the other way around that it's a bug that skills are hitting too few people when in the range of skills.

Maverick827

The only thing I saw in the patch notes that was capped at 3 was the healing portion of Inhale.

Maverick827

Napkins wrote: »

Maverick827 wrote: »

I don't run Dark Talons on my DK. It costs too much Magicka.

I'm not running a Magicka build and I can cast it three times.

I can use DT about 5-6 times in a row and i'm not even running a magicka build. All I use is spell cost reduction on my jewerly and it works wonders.

I can only cast a it three times /shrug

Obscure

@Maverick827‌
Use the duration to manage your magicka. 4 seconds is two recovery ticks. At 100 magicka regen you get 200 magicka in those 4 seconds (nearly half the base cost). Use a potion and your restoring more over time and a VR5 potion I make completely covers the base cost plus extra (increases my spell damage and spell crit too...Alchemy is so underrated). This is before considering reduction to cost with light armor and jewelry.

In full medium armor, an 82 magicka recovery, and no reduction jewelry (though I do use Warlock), I can throw down 7 of them if I pace my casts every 2-3 seconds. Though it only takes three to burn out someone's stamina from dodging anyhow. It's a very low skill high results tactic.

Erock25

Maverick827 wrote: »

Napkins wrote: »

Maverick827 wrote: »

I don't run Dark Talons on my DK. It costs too much Magicka.

I'm not running a Magicka build and I can cast it three times.

I can use DT about 5-6 times in a row and i'm not even running a magicka build. All I use is spell cost reduction on my jewerly and it works wonders.

I can only cast a it three times /shrug

Now I know why you keep sticking up for DKs. You run around with 900 magicka! It all makes sense now.

Maverick827

Obscure wrote: »

@Maverick827‌
Use the duration to manage your magicka. 4 seconds is two recovery ticks. At 100 magicka regen you get 200 magicka in those 4 seconds (nearly half the base cost). Use a potion and your restoring more over time and a VR5 potion I make completely covers the base cost plus extra (increases my spell damage and spell crit too...Alchemy is so underrated). This is before considering reduction to cost with light armor and jewelry.

In full medium armor, an 82 magicka recovery, and no reduction jewelry (though I do use Warlock), I can throw down 7 of them if I pace my casts every 2-3 seconds. Though it only takes three to burn out someone's stamina from dodging anyhow. It's a very low skill high results tactic.

That sounds an awful lot like not spamming them.

Erock25 wrote: »

Maverick827 wrote: »

Napkins wrote: »

Maverick827 wrote: »

I don't run Dark Talons on my DK. It costs too much Magicka.

I'm not running a Magicka build and I can cast it three times.

I can use DT about 5-6 times in a row and i'm not even running a magicka build. All I use is spell cost reduction on my jewerly and it works wonders.

I can only cast a it three times /shrug

Now I know why you keep sticking up for DKs. You run around with 900 magicka! It all makes sense now.

Dark Talons costs 420 Magicka.

Obscure

Maverick827 wrote: »

Obscure wrote: »

@Maverick827‌
Use the duration to manage your magicka. 4 seconds is two recovery ticks. At 100 magicka regen you get 200 magicka in those 4 seconds (nearly half the base cost). Use a potion and your restoring more over time and a VR5 potion I make completely covers the base cost plus extra (increases my spell damage and spell crit too...Alchemy is so underrated). This is before considering reduction to cost with light armor and jewelry.

In full medium armor, an 82 magicka recovery, and no reduction jewelry (though I do use Warlock), I can throw down 7 of them if I pace my casts every 2-3 seconds. Though it only takes three to burn out someone's stamina from dodging anyhow. It's a very low skill high results tactic.

That sounds an awful lot like not spamming them.

As i said, I'm medium armor, I have to pace myself. Try it in light armor with reduction 21% and minus roughly 45 magicka cost for jewelry. Very spammable. Goes for every skill in the game, not particularly specific to Talons.

NordJitsu

I think the focus on the spam is unwarranted. Like Obscure says, most skills can be spammed. Its a no cool down action combat game.

The problem is that spamming it is so darn effective, since it can be continually reapplied. No other root or CC of any type in this game can be reapplied as easily as Talons.

The best options are either a radius reduction (From 8 to 5 meters) or a very short duration immunity after dodge rolling out.

I prefer the latter option because it will lead to less QQ, as it looks less like nerfing a particular skill. However, to maintain their PvE balance, they might want to implement the radius reduction as well. This is simply the best tanking skill in the game right now and it'll be hard to get on a trial leaderboard without people running it.

Head.hunter

There's a dodge reduction cost on medium armor passives, so anyone who wears that armor type will have a high cc escape/dodge advantage.

I heard someone say that blocking should cancel cc, not sure if it's possible to do that but sounds like a decent alternative, even if it's a stationary move.

Travail

NordJitsu wrote: »

I think the focus on the spam is unwarranted. Like Obscure says, most skills can be spammed. Its a no cool down action combat game.

The problem is that spamming it is so darn effective, since it can be continually reapplied. No other root or CC of any type in this game can be reapplied as easily as Talons.

The best options are either a radius reduction (From 8 to 5 meters) or a very short duration immunity after dodge rolling out.

I prefer the latter option because it will lead to less QQ, as it looks less like nerfing a particular skill. However, to maintain their PvE balance, they might want to implement the radius reduction as well. This is simply the best tanking skill in the game right now and it'll be hard to get on a trial leaderboard without people running it.

Yeah, the dodge roll immunity (or some other form of immunity) is needed for PvP balance, to encourage counter play. The radius reduction is needed for PvE balance, so we aren't seeing DK's literally trapping multiple melee enemies outside of melee range indefinitely (they probably still could, but it would at least require them to position themselves smartly, and stay on the move.) DK's are easily soloing large melee packs without taking any damage at all because of those extra 3 meters of range, and I can see Trials turning into a bit of a joke if most enemies aren't immune to CC (not that I'm suggesting everything in Trials be immune to CC; I definitely wouldn't want that.)

-Travail.

Wifeaggro13

Travail wrote: »

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

Travail wrote: »

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

Travail wrote: »

scy22b14_ESO wrote: »

Nobody who has any working knowledge of the game has truly called for a nerf to Dark Talons.

The suggestions you made would solve the issue. Simply adding CC immunity when breaking out of a root/immobilize would be the simple fix.

Reducing the radius to 5 meters instead of 8 might be a positive change. This would mean you would now be able to root only those enemies who were in melee range of you, which is how I feel the skill should have been designed to work in the first place (trapping enemies in melee range with you, and preventing them from running to your allies.)

If you want an easy reference, 5 meters is the radius of Circle of Protection. Blood Altar is 8 meters. You can see that the circle offered by CoP is still quite large for what Talons is used for. It would still be a large enough area to catch multiple enemies inside of it.

The main difference would be that a single dodge roll would move a player outside of the range of Talons, which is a needed change in PvP. Also, this would mean that DK's couldn't spam Talons in order to keep enemies from entering melee range (which is how we get videos like this):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pXdLy3KYmWc

On a side note, I feel Inhale could use a reduction in radius down to 5 meters as well. Kind of off-topic, but you see the guy in the video combining these two skills to trap melee enemies outside of melee range, and use those helpless NPCs to heal himself through the boss damage with Inhale. I'm guessing this isn't how the devs envisioned a DK going about using their Draconic Power skill line. I think they wanted the DK to be in melee range in order to make full use of these abilities, not perpetually trapping their enemies just outside of melee range.

-Travail.

its already getting a reduction to 3 maximum no sense in reducing the radius its already a overpriced ability

Where did you hear 3 max targets? I heard it would no longer be unlimited, but most AoE's have a max of 6 targets. I assumed Talons would follow that trend.

-Travail.

Changes in Craglorn Trav maximum 3 targets

Yikes. If it stays that way, it's clear to me the devs don't know what the hell they are doing. That's a failure to identify what the true problem of Talons is, which was never about the number of targets you could hit. The problem is with how difficult it is to get out of the ability once you are in it, and that's due to A) the large radius, and B ) the fact DK's can spam the attack.

I guess when they promise stupid things like, "No cooldowns," this is how they have to go about balancing everything. I suspect most DK's would have preferred a reduction in the radius, while keeping unlimited targets. Not sure who will want to use this over Volcanic Rune, now.

-Travail.

my biggest fear is they will destroy the dk because that particular light armor build is OP. And it has very little to do with its class. Its the light armor resto/destro staff build giving them unlimited magica for solo content

Wifeaggro13

NordJitsu wrote: »

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

Travail wrote: »

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

Travail wrote: »

[quote="king knowledge of the game has truly called for a nerf to Dark Talons.

The suggestions you made would solve the issue. Simply adding CC immunity when breaking out of a root/immobilize would be the simple fix.

Reducing the radius to 5 meters instead of 8 might be a positive change. This would mean you would now be able to root only those enemies who were in melee range of you, which is how I feel the skill should have been designed to work in the first place (trapping enemies in melee range with you, and preventing them from running to your allies.)

If you want an easy reference, 5 meters is the radius of Circle of Protection. Blood Altar is 8 meters. You can see that the circle offered by CoP is still quite large for what Talons is used for. It would still be a large enough area to catch multiple enemies inside of it.

The main difference would be that a single dodge roll would move a player outside of the range of Talons, which is a needed change in PvP. Also, this would mean that DK's couldn't spam Talons in order to keep enemies from entering melee range (which is how we get videos like this):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pXdLy3KYmWc

On a side note, I feel Inhale could use a reduction in radius down to 5 meters as well. Kind of off-topic, but you see the guy in the video combining these two skills to trap melee enemies outside of melee range, and use those helpless NPCs to heal himself through the boss damage with Inhale. I'm guessing this isn't how the devs envisioned a DK going about using their Draconic Power skill line. I think they wanted the DK to be in melee range in order to make full use of these abilities, not perpetually trapping their enemies just outside of melee range.

-Travail.

its already getting a reduction to 3 maximum no sense in reducing the radius its already a overpriced ability

Where did you hear 3 max targets? I heard it would no longer be unlimited, but most AoE's have a max of 6 targets. I assumed Talons would follow that trend.

-Travail.

Changes in Craglorn Trav maximum 3 targets

@Wifeaggro13‌ @Trava

No.

The above video is IN Craglorn. Its hitting more than 3 targets. [/quote]

Just to be clear . The craglorn update on live will have those changes.and we are talking about inhale not talons . Guildie read me the pts notes. Possibly old video from Pts? Or he was simply screwing with me

Erock25

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

]my biggest fear is they will destroy the dk because that particular light armor build is OP. And it has very little to do with its class. Its the light armor resto/destro staff build giving them unlimited magica for solo content

They should start with nerfs to Standard (remove synergy, damage buff, and damage reduction), Magma Armor (10% max HP hit instead of 3%), Battle Roar (fine with it restoring 250-400 of each resource but 1k of each is too much) and immunity to immobilze after dodge roll.

Maverick827

Erock25 wrote: »

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

]my biggest fear is they will destroy the dk because that particular light armor build is OP. And it has very little to do with its class. Its the light armor resto/destro staff build giving them unlimited magica for solo content

They should start with nerfs to Standard (remove synergy, damage buff, and damage reduction), Magma Armor (10% max HP hit instead of 3%), Battle Roar (fine with it restoring 250-400 of each resource but 1k of each is too much) and immunity to immobilze after dodge roll.

So in other words, you want them to destroy the class because that particular light armor build is OP.

Still_Mind

Maverick827 wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

]my biggest fear is they will destroy the dk because that particular light armor build is OP. And it has very little to do with its class. Its the light armor resto/destro staff build giving them unlimited magica for solo content

They should start with nerfs to Standard (remove synergy, damage buff, and damage reduction), Magma Armor (10% max HP hit instead of 3%), Battle Roar (fine with it restoring 250-400 of each resource but 1k of each is too much) and immunity to immobilze after dodge roll.

So in other words, you want them to destroy the class because that particular light armor build is OP.

According to ZOE, that is the beauty of the modular character build system. They likely won't have to nerf the class - just the ridiculous Magicka Furnance synergy, which eliminates DK's main weakness (mana management), as well as unintended Ultimate gains to tone down the usefulness of Battle Roar.

vicNBitis

It will be nerfed as it should be.

1) crowd control
2) damage-over-time or debuff
3) direct damage
4) synergy
5) non-ultimate
6) tier 2
7) spammable cost
8) instant cast

Travail

Erock25 wrote: »

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

]my biggest fear is they will destroy the dk because that particular light armor build is OP. And it has very little to do with its class. Its the light armor resto/destro staff build giving them unlimited magica for solo content

They should start with nerfs to Standard (remove synergy, damage buff, and damage reduction), Magma Armor (10% max HP hit instead of 3%), Battle Roar (fine with it restoring 250-400 of each resource but 1k of each is too much) and immunity to immobilze after dodge roll.

They don't need to touch the Standard. They need to deal with the massive amounts of ultimate some builds can generate. They shouldn't be nerfing any ultimates until they deal with that issue, first.

-Travail.

koregen

The solution is blatantly obvious, a immunity timer after a dodge roll. If devs don't see this as the obvious solution to the pvp problems that talons is causing I worry about the future of this game.

dennis.schmelzleb16_ESO

I was looking for an AoE Sorc build and started to compare Burning Talons to Shattering Prison.

Here are the results: (Values are from ESOhead with same settings (spellpower, max magicka, lvl,...) so not exactly the real values)

-Area of Effect
BT: Pi*r² = Pi*8² = 201 square meter!
SP: l*b = 15*3 = 45 square meter!
Looking at the AE damage skills ingame, a circle is more useful, especially as the 3 mtr. width of SP is really tiny. Enemys can stand in meele range and aren't affected by SP.
Winner: DK by far!

-Root-Duration
BT: 4 sec
SP: 4,5 sec
No real difference here
Winner: Sorcerer but close run!

-Costs
BT: 420 Magicka
SP: 532 Magicka
Even if you consider the costreduction Sorcerers have it's not on par and you should even consider that DK have the same amount of passives as Sorcs, others but not less useful.
Winner: DK by far (ignoring the passives, as not comparable)

Damage:
BT: 217 direct + 237 damage over time
SP: 160 direct
Same here, as with costs. But here has the one with the better damage even the better passives, compared to costs where Sorcs had better passives, but also had higher costs.
Winner: DK by far (even with ignoring the passives, who would benefit the DK)


Conclusion:
Sorc wins one round, but very close. (10% more)
DK wins 3 rounds and every one by far!
AOE nearly 5 times more
Costs round about 20% less
Damage 180% more


Now lets try to bring them on par:
-Raise AoE of SP 8x20 (SP 160 compared to BT 201 sqm)
-Reduce cost of SP by 100 (SP 432 compared to BT 420)
-Double damage of SP (SP 320 compared to BT 454)

SP would still have a smaller area, would cost more and had less damage.
This would negate the 0,5secs more root it has and the fact that BT dot can be purged.

koregen

lol last thing we need is another OP dark talons

dennis.schmelzleb16_ESO

You can do it the other way round:

Talons:
-Radius: 5mtr. (meele range, still 78 sqm)
-Costs: 500 Magicka
-Damage: 117 + 137dot

still better in all points but not that OP anymore

Travail

dennis.schmelzleb16_ESO wrote: »

You can do it the other way round:

Talons:
-Radius: 5mtr. (meele range, still 78 sqm)
-Costs: 500 Magicka
-Damage: 117 + 137dot

still better in all points but not that OP anymore

You don't have to raise the cost. I'd rather have them deal with the cost reduction stuff across the board. Lots of builds are benefitting from high cost reduction, so nerfing a single ability doesn't really help.

The other stuff looks fine, especially considering Talons still has the synergy which will add additional damage. This seems more in line with other CC skills.

-Travail.

Erock25

Maverick827 wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

]my biggest fear is they will destroy the dk because that particular light armor build is OP. And it has very little to do with its class. Its the light armor resto/destro staff build giving them unlimited magica for solo content

They should start with nerfs to Standard (remove synergy, damage buff, and damage reduction), Magma Armor (10% max HP hit instead of 3%), Battle Roar (fine with it restoring 250-400 of each resource but 1k of each is too much) and immunity to immobilze after dodge roll.

So in other words, you want them to destroy the class because that particular light armor build is OP.

Do any other DKs think that this would destroy the class? Standard would still do more damage than Sorc Storm Atronach Ultimate (storm atronach gets stun, standard gets reduced heals) which is what all Sorc are using for DPS at the moment.

Travail wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

]my biggest fear is they will destroy the dk because that particular light armor build is OP. And it has very little to do with its class. Its the light armor resto/destro staff build giving them unlimited magica for solo content

They should start with nerfs to Standard (remove synergy, damage buff, and damage reduction), Magma Armor (10% max HP hit instead of 3%), Battle Roar (fine with it restoring 250-400 of each resource but 1k of each is too much) and immunity to immobilze after dodge roll.

They don't need to touch the Standard. They need to deal with the massive amounts of ultimate some builds can generate. They shouldn't be nerfing any ultimates until they deal with that issue, first.

-Travail.

DK logic is so screwed up! DK might have a slight edge with generating ultimate because of all their fire dot damage but I think most classes can get very close. So why aren't all the other classes be complained about or have videos on youtube pop up every day of them soloing VR group content? Because no other classes ultimates do anything near what Standard or Magma Armor can do and especially not when combined with Battle Roar passive healing all three resources so much.

You want to nerf something that affects all four classes because only your class is OP spamming ultimates .... do you see how that doesn't make sense?

Travail

Erock25 wrote: »

Maverick827 wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

]my biggest fear is they will destroy the dk because that particular light armor build is OP. And it has very little to do with its class. Its the light armor resto/destro staff build giving them unlimited magica for solo content

They should start with nerfs to Standard (remove synergy, damage buff, and damage reduction), Magma Armor (10% max HP hit instead of 3%), Battle Roar (fine with it restoring 250-400 of each resource but 1k of each is too much) and immunity to immobilze after dodge roll.

So in other words, you want them to destroy the class because that particular light armor build is OP.

Do any other DKs think that this would destroy the class? Standard would still do more damage than Sorc Storm Atronach Ultimate (storm atronach gets stun, standard gets reduced heals) which is what all Sorc are using for DPS at the moment.

Travail wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

]my biggest fear is they will destroy the dk because that particular light armor build is OP. And it has very little to do with its class. Its the light armor resto/destro staff build giving them unlimited magica for solo content

They should start with nerfs to Standard (remove synergy, damage buff, and damage reduction), Magma Armor (10% max HP hit instead of 3%), Battle Roar (fine with it restoring 250-400 of each resource but 1k of each is too much) and immunity to immobilze after dodge roll.

They don't need to touch the Standard. They need to deal with the massive amounts of ultimate some builds can generate. They shouldn't be nerfing any ultimates until they deal with that issue, first.

-Travail.

DK logic is so screwed up! DK might have a slight edge with generating ultimate because of all their fire dot damage but I think most classes can get very close. So why aren't all the other classes be complained about or have videos on youtube pop up every day of them soloing VR group content? Because no other classes ultimates do anything near what Standard or Magma Armor can do and especially not when combined with Battle Roar passive healing all three resources so much.

You want to nerf something that affects all four classes because only your class is OP spamming ultimates .... do you see how that doesn't make sense?

I do not play a Dragonknight. I play a high level Templar and a low level Sorc, and have been on board with nerfing both DK's (Talons, Inhale) and Sorcerers (Bolt Escape) in other threads.

The point here, though, is that no ultimate in the game is currently overpowered if we evaluate them without factoring in their repeated use multiple times in the same fight. The Standard is one of the most powerful ultimates in the game right now, I'll freely admit. However, if a DK couldn't keep a Standard on the ground 100% of the time, like they do in many of these videos, it wouldn't be an issue.

You mentioned Battle Roar. I'm not really comfortable nerfing that right now, and you shouldn't be, either. For all I know, Battle Roar would be perfectly balanced if DK's were generating less ultimate, and only able to use their ultimate attacks infrequently. I have no way of knowing how powerful Battle Roar is right now. Certainly, being able to have Battle Roar trigger every 10 seconds makes it way too powerful, but what if it only triggered once per minute? Would it be overpowered, then?

These are questions we really don't have answers to, and won't have answers to until ZOS gets their act together and standardizes ultimate generation, capping it at an amount low enough that these crazy builds are no longer possible. They also need to address cost reduction mechanics in general (I think they said they are looking at potentially capping magicka cost reduction, but I'm not sure about the ultimate resource.)

And that's coming from a player who plays a Templar main. You take cost reduction stacking away from the Templar, and they might as well hang up the gloves and retire. It would be a positive change for the game, though.

-Travail.

vicNBitis

It would still be an issue. Full light, pop Razor Armor and drop SoM(once) and you can go toe-to-toe with the infamous bugged/god-mode Storm Atronachs. DKs are ridiculously OP. In every facet of the game except healing.

Sorcerers are, I think, OP but when I'm on mine I still pay attention to health bars of enemies prior to attacking them. I still pay attention to mechanics that might help. I still make sure my Quick slots are updated/full. I still check and re-check my inventory for equipment upgrades. I still die and google when I'm out of ideas. I do none of that on my DK. It's not necessary. At all.

They're so OP that if Zenimax came out tomorrow and said we're wiping every DK to make up for our appalling lack of testing and foresight I'd be fine with it. I'd remake my DK and enjoy a little challenge.

Maverick827

vicNBitis wrote: »

It would still be an issue. Full light, pop Razor Armor and drop SoM(once) and you can go toe-to-toe with the infamous bugged/god-mode Storm Atronachs. DKs are ridiculously OP. In every facet of the game except healing.

Sorcerers are, I think, OP but when I'm on mine I still pay attention to health bars of enemies prior to attacking them. I still pay attention to mechanics that might help. I still make sure my Quick slots are updated/full. I still check and re-check my inventory for equipment upgrades. I still die and google when I'm out of ideas. I do none of that on my DK. It's not necessary. At all.

They're so OP that if Zenimax came out tomorrow and said we're wiping every DK to make up for our appalling lack of testing and foresight I'd be fine with it. I'd remake my DK and enjoy a little challenge.

You're not even trying to hide your trolling anymore, are you?

Surinen

Maverick827 wrote: »

vicNBitis wrote: »

It would still be an issue. Full light, pop Razor Armor and drop SoM(once) and you can go toe-to-toe with the infamous bugged/god-mode Storm Atronachs. DKs are ridiculously OP. In every facet of the game except healing.

Sorcerers are, I think, OP but when I'm on mine I still pay attention to health bars of enemies prior to attacking them. I still pay attention to mechanics that might help. I still make sure my Quick slots are updated/full. I still check and re-check my inventory for equipment upgrades. I still die and google when I'm out of ideas. I do none of that on my DK. It's not necessary. At all.

They're so OP that if Zenimax came out tomorrow and said we're wiping every DK to make up for our appalling lack of testing and foresight I'd be fine with it. I'd remake my DK and enjoy a little challenge.

You're not even trying to hide your trolling anymore, are you?

I would not call it the way you did, but yes, people here seems to be pretty vigorous about the balance,

please, allow me to point two things mister vicNBitis. how can 2 classes out of 4 be 'op'? well, I can only guess, you use some power level scale? if yes, then what kind of power should DK/S represent? if not, then DK/S are not overpowered but T/NB are underpowered and DK/S are norm (or maybe S is norm considering melodic wailings of sorcerers standing against DKs, and assuming that lower power is somewhat more justified). whole point of this message of mine is: there is no such thing as 'overpowered', there are only balance issues and solving them by toning down DK/S is unwise in my everight opinion.

vicNBitis

Nightblades would be fine in my opinion if not for the extreme imbalance with AOE grinding. You are stuck leveling through questing as plinking targets off one at a time just can't compare.

Sorcerers are OP I think since they can AOE grind and AOE grinding is OP. So much is broke though it's hard to tell if without that they'd still be OP.

Dragonknights are so far out of balance it's disgusting really. I feel dirty when I play mine. I have one bar...haven't touched the 2nd or weapon swapped once. I haven't touched the skills in that one bar for weeks. Single target is Talons, Whip spam. SoM if it's a boss otherwise nothing is ever even in melee range. Never needed anything else. No reason to experiment. AOE is Talons, Impulse. Again, never needed anything else. If SoM is up I might pull 3 packs instead of 1. Makes zero difference either way. The xp from AOE spamming is so ridiculously fast and easy using ultimates is like debating between the Veyron or GT3 for the trip to the corner store. Why bother?

I've no opinion on Templars as I haven't played one.

Surinen

well what I understood from your description of Dragonknight is that this class feels like a real deal Vestige, conqueror of Mannimarco and Molag Bal. why being strong makes you feel 'dirty'?